Greetings LSJ.
Some time ago, I argued that Fast Reaction and should prevent Thoughts
Betrayed from being played. You ruled against that. At the risk of
kicking a dead horse, I would like to revive that argument now that my
thoughts are clearer on the subject.
Card text states that Thoughts Betrayed is played "before combat begins",
and this has been ruled as meaning "as combat is entered". Conceptually,
this still seems confusing. Is it played in combat or outside combat?
The answer seems to be both, or neither. It seems as though a separate
sub-phase has been created, occurring between combat and non-combat, with
a sort of mystical self-contradictory status.
The only way I can think about this rationally is to assume that TB is
played at precisely the point that combat begins, and is therefore not a
"phase" in the sense that it has any duration whatsoever. Any cards
played prior to TB were played outside of combat, and any cards played
after TB will be played within combat. When looked at this way, TB, when
played, plays the role of a line drawn in the sand between combat and
non-combat. This conception would prevent multiple cards or effects from
being played "as combat is entered", except to the extent that they are
played simultaneously or can be thought of as having been played
simultaneously.
I believe it is legal for a minion to play more than one TB in a single
combat. That does not necessarily contradict the above interpretation,
since both cards can be thought of as having been played simultaneously
(provided that other methuselas do not play cards or card effects in the
interim). However, if one methuselah plays an effect "as combat is
entered", then no one else may respond with an effect "as combat is
entered". In Jyhad/V:tES seperate Methuselahs do not play effects
simultaneously, but continually respond to each others plays. Responses
must necessarily be subsequent.
According to the rulings on TB, if the acting minion plays TB, his
opponent is prevented from doing so. I always assumed that this applied
to the superior version of the card only, since card text prevents the
playing of ANY cards by the opposing minion. However, according to the
above interpretation, it would apply even if the acting minion played the
inferior version. Once methuselah-A plays TB, any response by
methuselah-B must be considered subsequent. Therefore, the minions are
already IN COMBAT and the opportunity to play cards AS COMBAT IS ENTERED
must have passed. The line in the sand separating non-combat from combat
has already been drawn, and methuselah-B is already on the "in-combat"
side of that line.
========================================================================
Assuming all the above is correct, how does this apply to Fast Reaction?
Fast Reaction is different from other means of getting into combat. When
combat results from an action, even a carded action like Bum's Rush,
combat does not begin the instant the action is declared or the card is
played, but rather at some indefinite time subsequently. Even, for
instance, if Bum's Rush is unblocked, the action will resolve (and combat
will be entered) at some time subsequent to the Bum's Rush actually being
played. When this does subsequently occur (during the "resolve action"
phase, I guess), one of the minions involved would have the opportunity to
play TB at that moment.
But in the case of Fast Reaction [and Hidden Lurker, with errata] combat
does not result from resolving an action. Fast Reaction is a reaction
card, whose effects, presumably are applied the instant it is played. The
effects are "This vampire NOW enters combat with the acting minion. This
vampire is tapped." Before playing this card, the two minions in question
were not in combat. After I play it, they are in combat. Playing Fast
Reaction draws the line in the sand between combat and non-combat, and it
does not seem to me that the opposing minion can subsequently respond with
another effect that draws a second line in the sand. Fast Reaction is,
itself, played "as combat is entered". Any responses are subsequent, and
the moment is passed. To play TB "as combat is entered" (simultaneously
with the moment when combat would begin), it would have to be played at
the same time as the Fast Reaction that started combat. But in this case
it is necessarily subsequent.
Presumably, however, the minion playing Fast Reaction could play TB
simultaneously, which would not only prevent his opponent from playing
cards, but would prevent him from striking as well. Talk about
helplessness!
I hope you haven't been too bored by this long argument, but I think it is
a good one.
Lupus Australis
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Lupus Australis wrote:
> Greetings LSJ.
>
> Some time ago, I argued that Fast Reaction and should prevent Thoughts
> Betrayed from being played. You ruled against that.
No. You asked about using Mask1K to escape TB.
<Pine.SUN.3.96.970926225131.6909B-100000@amanda>
I ruled against that (since pre-combat effects like Mask1K cannot
be played once combat is started). <8755355...@dejanews.com>
In that same set of articles, you also asked if Hidden Lurker was
played after the TB combat, could the blocking vampire play another
TB? I answered that it could be.
Fast Reaction never came up.
Now that it has, allow me to say that the two effects are independent:
neither can prevent the other from being played. (FR can be played
at the end of a TB combat, and TB can be played as a FR combat is
entered -- just like Hidden Lurker).
> Card text states that Thoughts Betrayed is played "before combat begins",
> and this has been ruled as meaning "as combat is entered". Conceptually,
> this still seems confusing. Is it played in combat or outside combat?
Inside, as the very first thing that happens in the combat.
> The only way I can think about this rationally is to assume that TB is
> played at precisely the point that combat begins, and is therefore not a
> "phase" in the sense that it has any duration whatsoever. Any cards
> played prior to TB were played outside of combat, and any cards played
> after TB will be played within combat. When looked at this way, TB, when
> played, plays the role of a line drawn in the sand between combat and
> non-combat. This conception would prevent multiple cards or effects from
> being played "as combat is entered", except to the extent that they are
> played simultaneously or can be thought of as having been played
> simultaneously.
Fair enough. Nothing wrong with viewing it that way. But the "line
in the sand" is not a one-card-or-effect-only spacer. It can collect
any number of effects (that are "as combat is entered" effects).
> I believe it is legal for a minion to play more than one TB in a single
> combat. That does not necessarily contradict the above interpretation,
> since both cards can be thought of as having been played simultaneously
The two TBs would still be played in sequence (not simultaneously).
That sequence would occur at the "line drawn in the sand".
> According to the rulings on TB, if the acting minion plays TB, his
> opponent is prevented from doing so. I always assumed that this applied
> to the superior version of the card only, since card text prevents the
> playing of ANY cards by the opposing minion.
It only applies to the superior, correct.
> However, according to the
> above interpretation, it would apply even if the acting minion played the
> inferior version. Once methuselah-A plays TB, any response by
> methuselah-B must be considered subsequent. Therefore, the minions are
> already IN COMBAT and the opportunity to play cards AS COMBAT IS ENTERED
> must have passed. The line in the sand separating non-combat from combat
> has already been drawn, and methuselah-B is already on the "in-combat"
> side of that line.
That sequence can indeed occur along the "line in the sand".
> ========================================================================
> Assuming all the above is correct, how does this apply to Fast Reaction?
The sequence (FR-TB) can occur in the "line in the sand". The TB can
be played by either combatant (if the first plays it at superior, of
course, then the second is prohibited from playing it).
--
L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com)
Official VtES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast.
(*) - Subject to review by Rules Team
On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, LSJ wrote:
> Lupus Australis wrote:
> > Some time ago, I argued that Fast Reaction and should prevent Thoughts
> > Betrayed from being played. You ruled against that.
>> No. You asked about using Mask1K to escape TB.
[snip]
> In that same set of articles, you also asked if Hidden Lurker was
> played after the TB combat, could the blocking vampire play another
> TB? I answered that it could be.
> Fast Reaction never came up.
Sorry for confusion. I think of the two as a pair as regards this issue,
and assumed I had mentioned both. Naturally, your ruling on one would
apply to the other. I used FR in this case so the issue would not be
complicated by the errata'd text and people would know what we were
talking about.
> Now that it has, allow me to say that the two effects are independent:
> neither can prevent the other from being played. (FR can be played
> at the end of a TB combat, and TB can be played as a FR combat is
> entered -- just like Hidden Lurker).
I can bow to this as a ruling, but still cannot concede that it makes
coherent sense.
> > Card text states that Thoughts Betrayed is played "before combat begins",
> > and this has been ruled as meaning "as combat is entered". Conceptually,
> > this still seems confusing. Is it played in combat or outside combat?
>> Inside, as the very first thing that happens in the combat.
Yes, but do you not see a contradiction here? If "as combat is entered"
effects must be "the very first thing that happins in the combat", then by
definition, they cannot be subsequent to other "as combat is entered"
effects.
> > The only way I can think about this rationally is to assume that TB is
> > played at precisely the point that combat begins, and is therefore not a
> > "phase" in the sense that it has any duration whatsoever. Any cards
> > played prior to TB were played outside of combat, and any cards played
> > after TB will be played within combat. When looked at this way, TB, when
> > played, plays the role of a line drawn in the sand between combat and
> > non-combat. This conception would prevent multiple cards or effects from
> > being played "as combat is entered", except to the extent that they are
> > played simultaneously or can be thought of as having been played
> > simultaneously.
>> Fair enough. Nothing wrong with viewing it that way. But the "line
> in the sand" is not a one-card-or-effect-only spacer. It can collect
> any number of effects (that are "as combat is entered" effects).
Allowing "as combat is entered" to have any breadth or dimension
whatsoever creates a logical impossibility: a region that is neither
combat nor not-combat, or is both combat and not combat. Suppose I paint
half my wall blue. My wall is divided into blue and not-blue. I can
place a pin at precisely the point where blue gives way to not-blue, but
it is impossible to imagine this line as dividing line having any
dimension. A pin stuck on one side of the line, however close, must be in
the blue section, just as a point on the other side must be in the
not-blue section. (I can, of course, stick many pins along the same
1-dimensional divide, which, in this analogy, would represent
simultaneity).
One can imagine a thick black line separating the blue side of the wall
from the rest, which is white. However, knowing that not-blue is
separated into white and black regions does not change the fact that the
dividing point between blue and not-blue is one-dimensional, as is the
dividing point between white and non-white.
Similarly, the point in time that separates "not-combat" from "combat"
cannot have any duration. A card effect can be played at the precise
moment not-combat becomes combat, but any cards played prior must have
been played out of combat, and any cards played subsequently must be
played in combat. If "as combat is entered" is a phase with duration
(analagous to the thick black line), then it is either in combat or out of
it. It is either the first phase of combat or the last phase of
not-combat.
If it is the last phase of not-combat, then it should be possible to play,
at this time, Mask1K. You have ruled otherwise.
If it is the first phase of combat, this creates other problems. Many
cards, like inferior Skin of Night, can be played at any point during
combat, yet it has been ruled they cannot be played during this phase. Why
not? Why could one not, at the beginning of this phase, play TB, Skin of
night and then a second TB? Should not the acting minion have an
opportunity to play Skin of Night before the blocking minion plays TB? If
this is really "in combat", as you have ruled, then this is the logical
conclusion. What about Conquer the Beast", which is played "at the
beginning of combat". If "at the beginning of combat" does not mean
"during the first phase of combat", then what does it mean? To accept
your ruling, one must either errata this card, or assume that these are
just nonsense words that form the title of a phase called
"AtTheBeginningOfCombat" that actually occurs sometime subsequent to the
real beginning of combat, called "AsCombatIsEntered".
The simplest (and in my opinion the best) way to resolve the above
contradictions it to assume that "as combat is entered" effects take place
precisely at the (dimensionless, durationless) point where non-combat
becomes combat. Anything prior was not-combat, and anything subsequent
will be combat.
From your last post, you seem to agree, at least, that TB, FR, and HL are
all "as combat is entered" effects. What makes no sense to me is that any
such effect can be subsequent to, and in response to, another. If the
first one played is "as combat is entered" then the ones that follow must
be "after combat was entered".
I can accept these as a series of separate rulings and TheWayThingsAre. I
cannot form them into a reasonable conceptual whole that respects logic
and the meaning of the words used.
Sorry for being so stubborn. I suppose I am wasting alot of words when
the real solution would be to ban TB.
[ quoted text not captured ]
I realize that this is quite a heated discussion, but I do have a question.
From what I have gathered; Once a TB has been played the oppenent can not play
his own TB, correct? If so than it makes sence that the opponent can not play
any other combat cards at all, entering combat, durring combat, whatever. My
question is if both players attempt to play their TB simultaniously, who's
takes precedence. Reading your on-going debate, I would think that each player
should be allowed to play any comabat entering effects, before they resolve.
Easy Example: player A plays a TB, before that takes effect and prohibits
player B from playing cards, he should be allowed to play his "as combat is
entered" effects, such as his own TB. When all cards have been played then
they should resolve. In this senerio, both players would have played TB's,
thus prohibiting any cards being played for the remainder of combat.
But this isn't how it sounds. It seems that there is a race to play your TB,
then you can play any other "as combat is entered" cards, but your opponent can
not.
Just an observation, and a question.
Jason
John Whelan wrote:
> On Wed, 7 Jan 1998, LSJ wrote:
> > Lupus Australis wrote:
> > > Card text states that Thoughts Betrayed is played "before combat begins",
> > > and this has been ruled as meaning "as combat is entered". Conceptually,
> > > this still seems confusing. Is it played in combat or outside combat?
> >
> > Inside, as the very first thing that happens in the combat.
>
> Yes, but do you not see a contradiction here? If "as combat is entered"
> effects must be "the very first thing that happins in the combat", then by
> definition, they cannot be subsequent to other "as combat is entered"
> effects.
I see how it might appear to be a contradiction, but that is a
failing of my explanation. "As combat is entered" is a phase of
combat, during which any number of "as combat is entered" effects
can be played (sequentially).
> Allowing "as combat is entered" to have any breadth or dimension
> whatsoever creates a logical impossibility: a region that is neither
> combat nor not-combat, or is both combat and not combat.
It is combat, pure and simple. It is not "not-combat" at all.
It just happens to be the very first part of combat, which
nothing else (in combat) can precede.
> If it is the first phase of combat, this creates other problems. Many
> cards, like inferior Skin of Night, can be played at any point during
> combat, yet it has been ruled they cannot be played during this phase.> Why could one not, at the beginning of this phase, play TB, Skin of
> night and then a second TB?
Because first things come first. All of the things that happen
"as combat is entered" are played before things that are played
later.
> Should not the acting minion have an
> opportunity to play Skin of Night before the blocking minion plays TB?
No, since TB comes first.
> If
> this is really "in combat", as you have ruled, then this is the logical
> conclusion. What about Conquer the Beast", which is played "at the
> beginning of combat". If "at the beginning of combat" does not mean
> "during the first phase of combat", then what does it mean? To accept
> your ruling, one must either errata this card, or assume that these are
> just nonsense words that form the title of a phase called
> "AtTheBeginningOfCombat" that actually occurs sometime subsequent to the
> real beginning of combat, called "AsCombatIsEntered".
Conquer the Beast was written before the "as combat is entered"
concept was introduced. Conquer has the same timing as Trap,
i.e., before range.
Conquer has to be adjusted in a logical way when other concepts
are introduced that complicate matters. This is nothing new:
compare any "play before range" card when Storm Sewers is in effect.
> The simplest (and in my opinion the best) way to resolve the above
> contradictions it to assume that "as combat is entered" effects take place
> precisely at the (dimensionless, durationless) point where non-combat
> becomes combat. Anything prior was not-combat, and anything subsequent
> will be combat.
Dimensionless, single-effect-capacity phases do not exist in VTES.
Adding such a concept would not be the simplest way to handle the
situation. Adding a new (regular) phase ("as combat is entered") is
at least as simple, and doesn't introduce any other new concepts
besides the new phase.
> From your last post, you seem to agree, at least, that TB, FR, and HL are
> all "as combat is entered" effects.
Not at all. FR and HL are "after combat" effects that start a new
combat. For this new combat, they are most definately "before
combat" effects.
> What makes no sense to me is that any
> such effect can be subsequent to, and in response to, another. If the
> first one played is "as combat is entered" then the ones that follow must
> be "after combat was entered".
Then treat "as combat is entered" as "during the phase for combat
effects that happen before other combat effects". Sorry, but the
English "as" seems to be creating the illusion of an "instantaneous"
phase, and I can't think of any suitable English construction that
conveys explicitly the fact that the phase is not instantaneous.
[ quoted text not captured ]
SirTemple wrote:
>
> I realize that this is quite a heated discussion, but I do have a question.
> From what I have gathered; Once a TB has been played the oppenent can not play
> his own TB, correct?
Correct.
> If so than it makes sence that the opponent can not play
> any other combat cards at all, entering combat, durring combat, whatever. My
> question is if both players attempt to play their TB simultaniously, who's
> takes precedence.
Acting player gets first opportunity to play effects in the phase,
as always.
> Reading your on-going debate, I would think that each player
> should be allowed to play any comabat entering effects, before they resolve.
There is no "resolve" stack in VTES.
Effects resolve as they are played, with the exception of things
which set up effects to resolve later (action cards which resolve
after the action is successful, strike which resolve during strike
resolution, etc.) and these latter cases clearly do not create any
"stacks" of effects to resolve.
> Easy Example: player A plays a TB, before that takes effect and prohibits
> player B from playing cards, he should be allowed to play his "as combat is
> entered" effects, such as his own TB. When all cards have been played then
> they should resolve.
When player A plays TB, the TB resolves. There is not "window" for
playing other effects between the time TB is played and the time
TB resolves (unless you want to strecth the point to Direct
Intervention, which actually cancels the effect of the card after
the fact).
> In this senerio, both players would have played TB's,
> thus prohibiting any cards being played for the remainder of combat.
> But this isn't how it sounds. It seems that there is a race to play your TB,
> then you can play any other "as combat is entered" cards, but your opponent can
> not.
All would-be "race" conditions in VTES are resolved by using the
following order:
1. Acting player
2. Blocking player (if any) or controller of opposing minion (if any)
3. Other players clockwise around the table starting from the
acting player.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Hi LSJ.
Hope you're not totally annoyed with me yet. I will give up this argument
soon.
Lest you think me too intractible, I will start by conceding the
reasonableness of having "as combat is entered" be considered a "phase",
as such, with duration. I can imagine it this way: A vampire enters
combat as he might enter a house. His toe crosses the threshold first,
and his coat-tails follow sometime thereafter. In the interim, he is
partially in and partially out. In this interim stage, effects that must
normally be played only in or only out of combat are both forbidden. One
can only play cards that are either specifically assigned to this interim
stage, or cards such as Direct Intervention, which can be played any time.
This interim stage has duration, in which a number of effects can be
played sequentially.
Though this conception might be seen as contradicting what you said in
your last post:
> It is combat, pure and simple. It is not "not-combat" at all.
> It just happens to be the very first part of combat, which
> nothing else (in combat) can precede.
Still, the above conception seems to fit with current rulings as far as I
can tell. However, it still leaves me with problems as regards Hidden
Lurker, Fast Reaction, Psyche, and other instant-effect cards that start
combat. More below....
> Dimensionless, single-effect-capacity phases do not exist in VTES.
> Adding such a concept would not be the simplest way to handle the
> situation. Adding a new (regular) phase ("as combat is entered") is
> at least as simple, and doesn't introduce any other new concepts
> besides the new phase.
I have already conceded this point. However, what you say above is
self-evident by definition because of the words you use. No "phase" as
such, is ever conceived as dimensionless, so obviously V:tES has no such
"phases". However it DOES have plenty of dimensionless single effects.
"Combat Ends" is usually treated this way (especially with "tap to end
combat" cards). Combat starts *could* be conceived similarly.
> > From your last post, you seem to agree, at least, that TB, FR, and HL are
> > all "as combat is entered" effects.
>> Not at all. FR and HL are "after combat" effects that start a new
> combat. For this new combat, they are most definately "before
> combat" effects.
I think you will have to concede that both TB and FR are all cards that
are played simultaneous with the start of combat. Now that I think about
it though, I realize that a distinction can be made as regards timing,
even though simultaneity exists in each case:
With FR (and HL and Psyche) combat is entered while the card is being
played. With TB, the timing relationship is inversed, and the card is
played while combat is being entered.
It sort of like the distinction between having a party while a guest
is dying, and having a guest die while you're having a party. Only in
the former case is it possible to have several parties in succession
before your guest finally croaks. In the latter case, your guest is
already dead by the time the first party is over, and any subsequent
parties must take place after he died (not "as he is dying").
Under normal circumstances, I can imagine the entering of combat having an
indefinite duration, during which many effects could be played. However,
in the case of FR, HL, and Psyche, the duration of the starting of combat
is (arguably) contained *within* the time it takes to play the card. In
such cases (it seems to me) the only way you could play TB "as combat is
entered" was if you played TB "as FR is being played".
I suppose you could argue that FR does not complete the entering of
combat, but merely causes combat to start to be entered, a process that is
completed sometime thereafter. However, I seem to recall you saying, in an
earlier post, that there is not normally a delay in the resolution of card
effects in V:tES. The effect of these cards is, after all, to start
combat, and not to cause combat to start to start.
Of course, your earlier post seemed to imply that the words "as combat is
entered" have no meaning beyond being the name of the first phase of
combat, which actually takes place *after* combat begins, (and thus, can
be played *after* HL or FR, which began combat). If this is your
position, then none of my arguments count. It does seem sort of odd
though, first to be told that "before combat begins" really means "as
combat is entered", and then to be told that "as combat is entered" really
means "after combat began."
[ quoted text not captured ]
Lupus Australis wrote:
>
> Hi LSJ.
>
> Hope you're not totally annoyed with me yet. I will give up this argument
> soon.
Take as long as you like - I enjoy a good debate.
> Lest you think me too intractible, I will start by conceding the
> reasonableness of having "as combat is entered" be considered a "phase",
> as such, with duration. I can imagine it this way: A vampire enters
> combat as he might enter a house. His toe crosses the threshold first,
> and his coat-tails follow sometime thereafter. In the interim, he is
> partially in and partially out. In this interim stage, effects that must
> normally be played only in or only out of combat are both forbidden. One
> can only play cards that are either specifically assigned to this interim
> stage, or cards such as Direct Intervention, which can be played any time.
> This interim stage has duration, in which a number of effects can be
> played sequentially.
>
> Though this conception might be seen as contradicting what you said in
> your last post:
>
> > It is combat, pure and simple. It is not "not-combat" at all.
> > It just happens to be the very first part of combat, which
> > nothing else (in combat) can precede.
If combat is a house, consider the iterim stage the entry foyer
where you wait to be greeted by your host. You're inside (completely),
but none of the normal "guest" stuff can occur before you are met by
your host (although you are welcome to occupy yourself while waiting,
and likewise, your host can prepare himself for the meeting.)
I would liken your neither-in-nor-out or both view to standing
on the porch waiting for someone to open the door. You're not
inside yet, but leaving isn't really an option, eh?
> Still, the above conception seems to fit with current rulings as far as I
> can tell. However, it still leaves me with problems as regards Hidden
> Lurker, Fast Reaction, Psyche, and other instant-effect cards that start
> combat. More below....
>
> > Dimensionless, single-effect-capacity phases do not exist in VTES.
> > Adding such a concept would not be the simplest way to handle the
> > situation. Adding a new (regular) phase ("as combat is entered") is
> > at least as simple, and doesn't introduce any other new concepts
> > besides the new phase.
>
> I have already conceded this point. However, what you say above is
> self-evident by definition because of the words you use. No "phase" as
> such, is ever conceived as dimensionless, so obviously V:tES has no such
> "phases". However it DOES have plenty of dimensionless single effects.
> "Combat Ends" is usually treated this way (especially with "tap to end
> combat" cards). Combat starts *could* be conceived similarly.
During those "dimensionless" combat ends steps, damage from Drawing
Out the Beast would be applied.
But, yes, there are many cards (indeed, most cards) which resolve
immediately when they are played. Start-combat cards fall into this
category (unless they are action cards, like Bum's Rush, which wait
for resolution).
> > > From your last post, you seem to agree, at least, that TB, FR, and HL are
> > > all "as combat is entered" effects.
> >> > Not at all. FR and HL are "after combat" effects that start a new
> > combat. For this new combat, they are most definately "before
> > combat" effects.
>
> I think you will have to concede that both TB and FR are all cards that
> are played simultaneous with the start of combat. Now that I think about
> it though, I realize that a distinction can be made as regards timing,
> even though simultaneity exists in each case:
FR is not played "with the start of combat". After a given combat, FR
can be played. If it is played, then it will start a new combat. But
FR cannot be played at the start of combat, since it is not a combat
card.
The difference between "play to start a combat" and "play at the start
of a combat".
> With FR (and HL and Psyche) combat is entered while the card is being
> played. With TB, the timing relationship is inversed, and the card is
> played while combat is being entered.
With FR, HL, and Psyche, the card (once played) starts a combat.
With TB, the card is played once combat has started.
> I suppose you could argue that FR does not complete the entering of
> combat, but merely causes combat to start to be entered, a process that is
> completed sometime thereafter. However, I seem to recall you saying, in an
> earlier post, that there is not normally a delay in the resolution of card
> effects in V:tES. The effect of these cards is, after all, to start
> combat, and not to cause combat to start to start.
Right. FR starts combat. The new reacting vampire enters combat with
the acting minion. Since combat is now being entered, either combatant
can play TB.
> Of course, your earlier post seemed to imply that the words "as combat is
> entered" have no meaning beyond being the name of the first phase of
> combat, which actually takes place *after* combat begins, (and thus, can
> be played *after* HL or FR, which began combat). If this is your
> position, then none of my arguments count. It does seem sort of odd
> though, first to be told that "before combat begins" really means "as
> combat is entered", and then to be told that "as combat is entered" really
> means "after combat began."
It (not surprisingly) doesn't seem odd to me:
"As combat is entered" is the first phase of combat. It occurs in
combat. It naturally cannot occur before combat begins. The first
thing that happens in a combat is that combat is entered.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mon, 12 Jan 1998, LSJ wrote:
> Lupus Australis wrote:
> > Lest you think me too intractible, I will start by conceding the
> > reasonableness of having "as combat is entered" be considered a "phase",
> > as such, with duration. I can imagine it this way: A vampire enters
> > combat as he might enter a house. His toe crosses the threshold first,
> > and his coat-tails follow sometime thereafter. In the interim, he is
> > partially in and partially out. In this interim stage, effects that must
> > normally be played only in or only out of combat are both forbidden. One
> > can only play cards that are either specifically assigned to this interim
> > stage, or cards such as Direct Intervention, which can be played any time.
> > This interim stage has duration, in which a number of effects can be
> > played sequentially.> If combat is a house, consider the iterim stage the entry foyer
> where you wait to be greeted by your host. You're inside (completely),
> but none of the normal "guest" stuff can occur before you are met by
> your host (although you are welcome to occupy yourself while waiting,
> and likewise, your host can prepare himself for the meeting.)
Your example is an illustration of the ambiguity of language, and some
confusion on what it means to be "in" a house. To the extent that the
entry foyer is thought of as part of the house, and person who is there
is, in this sense, already in the house, and the process of entering took
place in the past. However, the entry foyer can also be thought of as not
being part of the house's true interior, but as a passageway to it. In
this second sense, the person is not yet fully in, and is, hence,
partially not-in. He has entered the building, but has yet to fully enter
the living quarters. In this second sense only, he may be thought of as
still "entering the house".
A person in an entry foyer is certainly "in" something, but he is just as
certainly at least partially "not-in" whatever it is he is still entering.
Your example is good only if you are willing to allow the concept of being
in combat to be just as ambiguous and imprecise as the concept of being in
a house.
"Enter" means, of course, to "go in". It is a transitional process that
starts with being not-in, and ends with being in. If the process is still
going on, then the person must not yet be fully in (ie. must be at least
partially not-in). Only if we are ambiguous about what is being entered
is it possible to simultaneously regard something as both "in" and
"entering". For instance, if Fred eats a pickle, the pickle may be
already in Fred's throat, but still be in the process of entering his
stomach. However, once we reach an agreement on what it means to be "in
Fred", then to say that something is both "in Fred" and "entering Fred" is
a contradiction in terms.
> > > Dimensionless, single-effect-capacity phases do not exist in VTES.
> > > Adding such a concept would not be the simplest way to handle the
> > > situation. Adding a new (regular) phase ("as combat is entered") is
> > > at least as simple, and doesn't introduce any other new concepts
> > > besides the new phase.
> >
> > I have already conceded this point. However, what you say above is
> > self-evident by definition because of the words you use. No "phase" as
> > such, is ever conceived as dimensionless, so obviously V:tES has no such
> > "phases". However it DOES have plenty of dimensionless single effects.
> > "Combat Ends" is usually treated this way (especially with "tap to end
> > combat" cards). Combat starts *could* be conceived similarly.
>
> During those "dimensionless" combat ends steps, damage from Drawing
> Out the Beast would be applied.
Aren't such effects applied immediately after combat *ended*? Doesn't the
"end combat" effect resolve before other effects are played?
> But, yes, there are many cards (indeed, most cards) which resolve
> immediately when they are played. Start-combat cards fall into this
> category (unless they are action cards, like Bum's Rush, which wait
> for resolution).> > > > From your last post, you seem to agree, at least, that TB, FR, and HL are
> > > > all "as combat is entered" effects.
> > >
> > > Not at all. FR and HL are "after combat" effects that start a new
> > > combat. For this new combat, they are most definately "before
> > > combat" effects.
> >
> > I think you will have to concede that both TB and FR are all cards that
> > are played simultaneous with the start of combat. Now that I think about
> > it though, I realize that a distinction can be made as regards timing,
> > even though simultaneity exists in each case:
>
> FR is not played "with the start of combat". After a given combat, FR
> can be played. If it is played, then it will start a new combat. But
> FR cannot be played at the start of combat, since it is not a combat
> card.
Right. FR is played outside of combat. Its effect is to cause the
reacting minion "now enter combat". This effect resolves instantly,
before the next card can be played. Thus, by the time anyone can react,
combat has already been entered.
TB however, is played while combat is being entered. After it resolves,
one may presume that combat is still being entered, since the card's
effect does nothing to complete the "enter combat" process.
The only question is: is the concept of entering combat the same in both
cases? Perhaps not. Perhaps there is just as much confusion about what
it means to be "in combat" as there is about what it really means to be
"in" a big house with an entry foyer. Thus, perhaps he has already
entered in one sense (and is, thus, already in combat), but is still
entering in another sense (and is, in this alternate latter sense, at
least partially not-in-combat).
> The difference between "play to start a combat" and "play at the start
> of a combat".
OK, except I would change the latter to "play while combat is starting".
"At" is too vague, implying only that it is played on or around the start
of combat, (and is the language used in "Conquer the Beast"). Once "play
to start a combat" resolves, then combat has started, and one cannot (in
the same sense of the word "start") subsequently play a card "while
combat is starting".
> > With FR (and HL and Psyche) combat is entered while the card is being
> > played. With TB, the timing relationship is inversed, and the card is
> > played while combat is being entered.
>
> With FR, HL, and Psyche, the card (once played) starts a combat.
> With TB, the card is played once combat has started.
Is TB played once combat has started? Or is it played while combat is
starting? It's not the same, and makes a difference for this argument.
We seem to have switched from the word "enter" to "start". Do they mean
the same thing? In case it matters, HL and FR both cause a minion to
"enter combat", while Psyche causes "Combat starts".
> > I suppose you could argue that FR does not complete the entering of
> > combat, but merely causes combat to start to be entered, a process that is
> > completed sometime thereafter. However, I seem to recall you saying, in an
> > earlier post, that there is not normally a delay in the resolution of card
> > effects in V:tES. The effect of these cards is, after all, to start
> > combat, and not to cause combat to start to start.
>
> Right. FR starts combat. The new reacting vampire enters combat with
> the acting minion. Since combat is now being entered, either combatant
> can play TB.
If combat is still being entered, then the effect of FR ("This vampire now
enters combat...") has not yet been fully resolved.
> > Of course, your earlier post seemed to imply that the words "as combat is
> > entered" have no meaning beyond being the name of the first phase of
> > combat, which actually takes place *after* combat begins, (and thus, can
> > be played *after* HL or FR, which began combat). If this is your
> > position, then none of my arguments count. It does seem sort of odd
> > though, first to be told that "before combat begins" really means "as
> > combat is entered", and then to be told that "as combat is entered" really
> > means "after combat began."
>
> It (not surprisingly) doesn't seem odd to me:
>
> "As combat is entered" is the first phase of combat. It occurs in
> combat. It naturally cannot occur before combat begins. The first
> thing that happens in a combat is that combat is entered.
Well, fine. As long it is just the name of a phase, what argument can I
make? Ordinarily I would think it contradictory and an abuse of language
to say that one would have to be already in a house in order to enter it,
but if the host chooses to call the first room I see an "entrance foyer",
and insist that, while in it, I am still entering the house by definition,
I suppose that's his prerogative.
Just so long as we realize that the words "enter combat" do not mean the
same thing in TB as they do in FR, and that the "enter combat" phase
mentioned in TB takes place subsequent to the resolution of the "enter
combat" effect of FR and HL. They are still entering combat in one sense,
even though they have already entered combat in another sense.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Lupus Australis wrote:
> > During those "dimensionless" combat ends steps, damage from Drawing
> > Out the Beast would be applied.
>
> Aren't such effects applied immediately after combat *ended*? Doesn't the
> "end combat" effect resolve before other effects are played?
No. The only combat effects applied after combat ends (besides the obvious
Form of Mist) are the post-S:CE damage effects (Riposte, Catatonic Fear).
----
"Enter Combat" is an instruction.
"This minion enters combat" (FR) is an instruction - a thing to do.
It happens.
"As combat is entered" (TB) describes when an effect can be played.
If FR causes combat (to be entered), then TB can be played as
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980113011505.8462B-100000@amanda>, Lupus
Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> writes
>Right. FR is played outside of combat. Its effect is to cause the
>reacting minion "now enter combat". This effect resolves instantly,
>before the next card can be played. Thus, by the time anyone can react,
>combat has already been entered.
>
>TB however, is played while combat is being entered. After it resolves,
>one may presume that combat is still being entered, since the card's
>effect does nothing to complete the "enter combat" process.
You are standing outside of my house.
Your controlling Methuselah tells you to enter my house.
There is a small amount of time when you are entering my house. It does
not happen instantly.
During that time, I can throw boiling on you throw a little hole in the
top of the door.
***
You are just having a combat with someone.
It finishes
Their controlling Methuselah makes them enter combat with you again
(Fast Reaction)
They therefore "Enter combat now"
Enter combat now is an instruction to the minion
To do it, it has to go through the process of entering combat.
Thoughts Betrayed is now playable.
***
Your controlling Methuselah tells you to "Eat an egg, now!!!!"
The egg does not suddenly enter your body.
There is a small period when the egg is entering your body.
All effects which occur when eggs enter your body are now playable.
***
Sorry, but that's how it seems to me.
When FR tells you to enter combat now, it doesn't, for me, make combat
start *now*, it starts up an enter combat effect. The now simply stops
it from being carried on and you saying "Well, I'll enter combat with
you in a few seconds, I just want to tap a couple of cards".
By a similar token, Bum's rush tells it's minion to Enter combat with an
opposing minion. When that resolves, that card resolves instantly.
When it resolves, the minion enters combat with the opponent. But TB is
still playable.
The resolution, for me, of an Enter Combat effect is to go into an
Entering Combat window. Things don't just happen, there has to be a
process behind them. Fast Reactions is the order to enter combat, the
Entering Combat window is it's resolution, not just two minions suddenly
ending up in combat.
--
James Coupe (remove some crap to reply)
Pah!! I hope it shits in your jogging suit!
In article <19980117011...@ladder02.news.aol.com>, VampChamp1 wrote:
>Great debate, but never was there a time when the dead horse should partied
>whether he be in the foyer or on the porch.
Not everything that can be done should be done. But these be Evil times!
--
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <LFkB5MAd...@obeah.demon.co.uk>, James Coupe wrote:
>In article <Pine.SUN.3.96.980113011505.8462B-100000@amanda>, Lupus
>Australis <jbwh...@dorsai.org> writes>>Right. FR is played outside of combat. Its effect is to cause the
>>reacting minion "now enter combat". This effect resolves instantly,
>>before the next card can be played. Thus, by the time anyone can react,
>>combat has already been entered.
>>
>>TB however, is played while combat is being entered. After it resolves,
>>one may presume that combat is still being entered, since the card's
>>effect does nothing to complete the "enter combat" process.>
>You are standing outside of my house.
>
>Your controlling Methuselah tells you to enter my house.
>
>There is a small amount of time when you are entering my house. It does
>not happen instantly.
So far so good.
>During that time, I can throw boiling on you throw a little hole in the
>top of the door.
Umm. Depends on how my methuselah told me to enter. If he sent me in as
an action, certainly there is time. If he sent me in with an action
modifier or reaction card, then what my methuselah told me to do with that
card has been achieved before you can react. If he told me to turn my
nose from yellow to blue, with an action modifier, then my nose is has
already turned blue before you can react. You cannot play cards that
require my nose to be still turning blue (which would presumably make it
some shade of green).
I know there are exceptions to the above rule, and certainly it could be
ruled that FR and HL are such exceptions. LSJ has told me, however, that
this is not an exception and that the "now enters combat" instruction of
FR resolves before other cards are played. LSJ does not seem to see any
problem with this. To me, however, it seems to firmly contradict the
notion that "as combat is entered" cards can be played afterwards. To me,
it seems clear that if "now enters combat" fully resolves before the next
card of effect is played, then the next card is played not "as combat is
entered" but "after combat was entered"
First: The card is played (Methuselah says "enter combat")
Second: The card resolves (minion enters combat)
Third: Other methuselah responds. He cannot respond while the card is
resolving. That happens first, prior to his reaction. Therefore
he cannot play a card while combat is being entered. That already
happened.
>***
>
>You are just having a combat with someone.
>
>It finishes
>
>Their controlling Methuselah makes them enter combat with you again
>(Fast Reaction)
>
>They therefore "Enter combat now"
>
>Enter combat now is an instruction to the minion
>
>To do it, it has to go through the process of entering combat.
Fine, but so far it is my understanding that this "process" resolves
before the next card is played. The instruction of FR is "now enters
combat" not "now begins the process of entering combat"
>Thoughts Betrayed is now playable.
After "now enters combat" has already resolved, and the situation status
is now "just entered combat". I have no problem with the scenario you
envision happening after a block. In such a case I can see the process of
entering combat being of indefinite length, such that you could play as
many "as combat is entered" effects as you like. Or entering a house
could be seen as taking an indefinite period, such that you could pour as
many vats of oil on me as you like as I cross the threshold, or you could
punch me in the nose as many times as you like while it is still a shade
between yellow and blue. But you cannot do any of these things if these
effects resolve before you can react (as LSJ says they do in the case of
cards like FR).
>***
>
>Your controlling Methuselah tells you to "Eat an egg, now!!!!"
>
>The egg does not suddenly enter your body.>There is a small period when the egg is entering your body.
Thats fine if you eat an egg as an acion. If the "eat egg" effect is
caused by a reaction card like FR, then, however long you imagine it may
take, it has happened (resolved) before the next play. The next play
occurs after the egg was eaten, not while it is being eaten.
>All effects which occur when eggs enter your body are now playable.
No. Effects which occur when an egg is in your body are now playable.
"As Egg is Eaten" is now history. (Logically)
>Sorry, but that's how it seems to me.
>
>When FR tells you to enter combat now, it doesn't, for me, make combat
>start *now*, it starts up an enter combat effect.
Which resolves before the next play. You can solve this in a number of
ways, but it requires a little revision of language. You could argue that
"now enters combat" really means "now starts to enter combat". That way,
by the time the next play occurs, all that has resolved is that the
"entering of combat" has begun, and that process of "entering combat" can
be viewed as still under way.
(Why anyone would want to make such a mental adjustment, though, makes no
sense to me. Isn't TB overpowered anyway?)
>The now simply stops
>it from being carried on and you saying "Well, I'll enter combat with
>you in a few seconds, I just want to tap a couple of cards".
That's fine, if you want to do it that way. But it is not consistent with
LSJ's claim that such cards resolve before the next card is played.
>By a similar token, Bum's rush tells it's minion to Enter combat with an
>opposing minion. When that resolves, that card resolves instantly.
>When it resolves, the minion enters combat with the opponent. But TB is
>still playable.
I have no problem with playing TB "as combat is entered" in such
situations. With Bum's Rush, the enter combat resolves an indefinite time
after the action is declared, and when it happens, there is nothing
preventing us from conceiving it as a phase having indefinite duration.
>The resolution, for me, of an Enter Combat effect is to go into an
>Entering Combat window.
Then you are saying that what resolves is not "enters combat" but "enters
Entering-Combat window". I have no problem with such a revision of
provided someone concedes that it *is* a revision.
>Things don't just happen, there has to be a
>process behind them. Fast Reactions is the order to enter combat, the
>Entering Combat window is it's resolution, not just two minions suddenly
>ending up in combat.
Sometimes a process is completed before any reaction is possible. This
occurs in Jyhad quite often. Sudden Reversal and Direct Intervetion can
undo most such effects of course, but, if I remember rightly, they are
conceived as functioning retroactively.
[ quoted text not captured ]