Thoughts Betrayed: The Red Menace

pd...@aol.com (PDB6) writes: >Ok, if any card in DS is a menace, it is " Thoughts Betrayed ": >"Only usable before combat begins. Opposing minion cannot use any cards >until after combat. " (This is tha superior use. Costs 2 blood) >Now this card is entirely out of control. It makes the Malkavians immune >to combat, the Tremere the ultimate combat clan, and the Ventrue have >something to fall back on if they accidentally run out of Majesty cards. >Thoughts Betrayed cannot be avoided or countered, it eliminates ALL combat >strategies ( even gun decks, because they can't multi-strike, use ammo, or >press ), and keeps the Malkavians from being eaten, which was their >greatest weakness. Imagine a Tremere rush-combat deck utilizing this >card. It will jump anyone, Blood Fury to avoid guns, it's presses CAN'T >BE OPPOSED, and then vaporize someone on the second round, while taking >little or no damage, and the opposing minion can do NOTHING do defend >itself. Eeek. Actually Tremere Throughts Betrayed is even worse than that. The card's only disadvantage is that it costs 2 blood (which I would readily pay for such an ability). Tremere, however, can Theft back what they spend - so their cost is effectively zilch. (And by the silly official ruling, they can even do a Taste of Vitae afterwards! Good Grief!). TB in a Tremere deck converts the whole table into a giant unlimited hunting ground. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)

PDB6 (pd...@aol.com) wrote: : Ok, if any card in DS is a menace, it is " Thoughts Betrayed ": : "Only usable before combat begins. Opposing minion cannot use any cards : until after combat. " (This is tha superior use. Costs 2 blood) Psyche. Hidden Lurker. Fast Reaction. Guns. Vials of Garou Blood. : Now this card is entirely out of control. It makes the Malkavians immune : to combat Not really. Malkavians still can't fight; so they've got you trapped and unable to use cards, but they still can't pound you. The Tremere problem is worse, yes. But now you need _another_ card in the combination (along with your Press and Walk of Flame) and you're paying two, which is what the opposing vampire will pay to get out of torpor. Seems like a fair deal. : Urk. This is a BAD card. Cheeze-o-Rama. Spoiler Spoiler Spoiler. Ick. Play your Tremere combat machine a bit -- I think you'll find it's too card-intensive. - Neil -- nwbe...@unix.amherst.edu, lentus in umbra | nudus ara, sere nudus... in omnibus requiem quaesivi, et nusquam inveni nisi in angulo cum libro

The point is not that the Malkavians can hurt me now with that Thoughts Betrayed card, but that they can't be killed. Before, when I finaly caught that sneaky Malkavian who keeps bleeding me for 5 he would regularly vanish in a hail of 5 point aggrivated strikes. Now, I will get punched for 2 and Ozmo will get away to bleed again. And TB is FAR worse than S:CE, because you can use Imortal Grapple to counter S:CE. You can't use anything to counter TB. Nothing. Guns don't work effectively against TB, because guns generally rely on ammo or multi-strikes. Ok, the victim with the gun can manuver to long range and shoot you once, but that is much better than winning a .44 with glaiser rounds and a blur. And if TB is in a Tremere combat deck, good lord. What a mess. Yes, it is a card intensive combo deck, but the Tremere are generally card intensive anyway ( a strike on round one, a press, a re-press, a manuver, a re-manuver, walk of flame...), and one card to avoid your presses being canceled, you being manuvered from, you being dodged, you being killed on the first round, ect. makes it entirely worth it, and could very well save you the need for some cards ( those extra presses and manuvers ). Most combat decks are card intensive anyway ( for prime use, my deck needs to have imortal grapple, torn signpost, undead strength, claws-o-dead, and a behind you in case they manuver. ), and this one card works wonders for the Tremere. I think it will make them way too scary. -Peter D Bakija

I believe you are completely wrong. If I am playing Ventrue or Malkavians I will play with cards that allow me to get out of combat with no damage taken. I am not going to play a card that does 2 to myself + they still can strike with guns or hands for a total of 3 or more. Even if the card is used effectively I still took at least 3 damage! What's so spoiler about that? A card that lets me leave combat with only 3 damage taken? Sounds pretty weak. Dodges, Maneuvers, Combat Ends, Fortitude, are all better than that. If I am playing Tremere then I am taking enough damage from my own cards to do 2 damage to myself. Bloody Fury will do 1 to me, plus 2 from Thoughts Betrayed, plus more from the opposing minion. That's a total of 4 or more damage to my vampire. That sucks! Maybe they weren't going to play any cards anyway, then I just did 2 damage to myself for no reason. I think you need to play some games with this card before you make such a strong opinion. -- -Eric Wohlstadter

PDB6 (pd...@aol.com) wrote: : Yes, it is a card intensive combo deck, but the Tremere are generally card : intensive anyway ( a strike on round one, a press, a re-press, a manuver, : a re-manuver, walk of flame...), and one card to avoid your presses being : canceled, you being manuvered from, you being dodged, you being killed on : the first round, ect. makes it entirely worth it, and could very well save : you the need for some cards ( those extra presses and manuvers ). Most : combat decks are card intensive anyway ( for prime use, my deck needs to : have imortal grapple, torn signpost, undead strength, claws-o-dead, and a : behind you in case they manuver. ), and this one card works wonders for : the Tremere. I think it will make them way too scary. As if they weren't too scary already. And as if they didn't get enough boons in the expansion to begin with. A 3 vamp with 2 superior disciplines including Thaumaturgy? One of the people I play with is already stacking in as many thoughts betrayed as he can into his Tremere intercept/combat deck. He won more than his fair share of games anyway... NOW what will happen? And that's provided that the card text means that you can't play NEW cards but you CAN use cards that are already on the table (Elysium??!!). We NEED a ruling on this one ASAP: The card text says that your opponent may not "use" any cards during combat. I can see many possibilities off the top of my head: ONE) "use" really means "play new" and thus I can use flak jackets, guns, sport bikes, Elysiums, etc... TWO) the card is errata'd such that the effects only last one round (still bad but not quite as bad). THREE) the card is errata'd such that NEITHER combatant can "use" or "play new" or whichever it is. FOUR) it's errata'd to be unique so it only has an effect once... FIVE) it's errata'd to mean that I can't use a specific TYPE of card, like damage prevention, or strikes. SIX) it actually means "use any cards" which would mean I couldn't use flak jackets OR guns OR Elysium and will sit there taking punishment until the other guy sends me torpor or burns me (with the looser aggravated damage rules of V:TES). PLEASE let us know what the heck this card means ASAP. This card upsets the balance so much that either you are able to play them, or you are going to be TOASTED. And the typical "Well, don't get into combat with them" doesn't work either, I'm sorry to say. If they are intercept/second-round-brutal- damage-combat (Tremere) then you can't bleed them, you probably can't call votes, and you sure as HECK won't block them (because the acting minion gets first chance at playing cards). Hand jam just doesn't cut it here. What do the rest of you in net-land think? -James

: Actually Tremere Throughts Betrayed is even worse than that. The card's : only disadvantage is that it costs 2 blood (which I would readily pay for : such an ability). Tremere, however, can Theft back what they spend - so : their cost is effectively zilch. (And by the silly official ruling, they : can even do a Taste of Vitae afterwards! Good Grief!). TB in a Tremere : deck converts the whole table into a giant unlimited hunting ground. Come on guys the card is not as bad as you make it seem, lets say someone has a two hand damage vampire and intercepts a malkavian who plays TB to protect himself. Well that malk just lost two pool and is about to lose two more. If you come ot of a combat inflicting *four* points of damage to your opponet I say your the victor. And any card game even jyhad Needs limits or you can make unbeatable decks like the Freaky Majestic bleed deck, or my favorite the freaky, dayop, fame, movment of the slow body, sylvesterdeck. So around these parts we have invoked a card limit of 8 maximum of any one type of card this limit stops Freaky magestic bleeds by capping majesty and freakdrives at 8 and in a hundred card deck thats ony 16% freaky majestic. This also prevents a sick amount of wwef in decks, but still allows people to be creative in making decks. -- ||||||| BRAD /\wa...@pioneer.nevada.edu |^_.^ _^|. o O (all I did was smoke) /vvvvvvvvvvvv \-----------------------C\[@]-[@]/)-------, ____ `^^^^^^^^^^^^ /========================| : U .:|=======" / /\ WARD \/ wa...@cs.unlv.edu `.(===):' ( ==/=*~) \---/ \/____/

Well, we know how I feel about this card. It seems like this card is sort of a response to a balance problem which was a response to a balance problem which was a response to a balance problem. It looks as if this card (Thoughts Betrayed) was designed in response to the Malkavians getting killed, which became unbalancing when all the other anti-Malk ( um, I mean bleed ) cards which were put in, which were put in because the Malks were too easy to use, ect, ect. Please don't take this as an attack on the Malkavians. That is an entirely different subject. This sort of downward spiraling " Game Balance " invariably leads to an unhappy end. Now, some new card will have to be put in to fix the problems caused by TB, and so on. As for the effects this card has on the Tremere, IMO, the Tremere did need some help, as I am still yet to see a really effective Tremere deck. I have seen some ok Tremere intercept/burn or bleed/burn decks, but none that were exeptionally scary ( In the way a good Gangrel or Brujah or Malk can be. Net people claim that they can be very scary, so I suppose they can, just no one I know has managed to put one together yet. ). Regardless, this TB card is WAY OVERKILL if it were meant to be help for the Tremere. Very out of control. Now, if a Tremere has this card at their disposal when they get into combat, the other minion gets to pasively stand and watch himself get vaporized. What to do. All the other cards from DS seem pretty on the level so far ( I have questons about that " take a minion from your ash heap and put it into play with a blood " card though. ), so I like the expansion, but TB is an accident incarnate. -Peter D Bakija

In article <4a4lee$l...@amhux3.amherst.edu>, nwbe...@unix.amherst.edu (Neil Bernstein) writes: > you're paying two, which is what the >opposing vampire will pay to get out of torpor. Seems like a fair deal. As long as your not burned! And don't forget the pool you'll lose from their strike(s) ~Biomechanoid

>Well, we know how I feel about this card. It seems like this card is sort >of a response to a balance problem which was a response to a balance >problem which was a response to a balance problem. >All the other cards from DS seem pretty on the level so far ( I have >questons about that " take a minion from your ash heap and put it into >play with a blood " card though. ), so I like the expansion, but TB is an >accident incarnate. What about Burning Wrath? That card + torn signpost= burned vampire and the vampire can taste to regain the blood spent for the use of the card. What about Sacrificial Lamb? The card would be fine if it were still considered diablerie. If that was the case people would think twice about using it instead of using it at every opportunity, yet how much more powerful is Sacrificial Lamb than Grave Robbing? Is Thoughts Betrayed any worse than Fame was? Form of the Mist? Fame cost your prey 3(+1) pool and there was nothing they could do about it. Form of mist made all Gangrel actions unblockable for no cost if they had superior protean. Compare that to Horrific Visage, which for 4 blood, doesn't even tap the opposing vampire. Thoughts Betrayed is the only card short of a S:CE that will prevent your vampire from being burned outright by cards like Burning Wrath.

While Thought's Betrayed is a good card, I still don't see it as becoming a spoiler. You have to have several of the right cards, be in combat, and have superior dominate to work. My guess is that you will be ousted trying to get everything to work right. I could be wrong, I propose we play some games with this card before we cast too much judgement. It seems most people talking about this card havn't even played with it yet and that could make quite a difference to the conversation. Also, I'm pretty sure you could use Elysium to end combat. I think it means you can't play cards not you can't use cards. Somebody said nothing can counter Thoughts Betrayed. I believe that is wrong, I'm sure Obedience would work. About that 3 Tremere: That card is ridiculous. I just don't get it. We should be talking about this chick instead of Thoughts Betrayed. -Eric Wohlstadter

Eric Wohlstadter wrote: > > While Thought's Betrayed is a good card, I still don't see it as becoming > a spoiler. You have to have several of the right cards, be in > combat, and have superior dominate to work. My guess is that you will be > ousted trying to get everything to work right. I could be wrong, I > propose we play some games with this card before we cast too much > judgement. It seems most people talking about this card havn't even > played with it yet and that could make quite a difference to the > conversation. Also, I'm pretty sure you could use Elysium to end combat. I'm also wondering if you can use a thoughts betrayed in response to a thoughts betrayed and net a 3 point damage to both parties. Or will it simply be a race to see who declares it first? > I think it means you can't play cards not you can't use cards. Somebody > said nothing can counter Thoughts Betrayed. I believe that is wrong, I'm > sure Obedience would work. About that 3 Tremere: That card is ridiculous. > I just don't get it. We should be talking about this chick instead of > Thoughts Betrayed. Tom said the 3 tremer chick should have normal auspex, not superior. That's probably the way that I'm gonna play it. > > -Eric Wohlstadter

In article <4a6tl7$d...@gw.dgii.com> jam...@gw.digibd.com (James Puzzo) writes: >What do the rest of you in net-land think? I think the card has only been out for one week, and people are making incredibly hasty judgements, about this card and other cards. Show me a Jyhad/V:TES deck that is unbeatable after 2 weeks of trying and then maybe I'll pay attention. I remember when Legends came out for M:tG. Everybody in my town said "Whoa, these cards are way too powerful. You have to buy lots of them to be competitive, because you can't compete with these cards unless you have them yourself." It's been said about other expansions since then, too, and every time, that statement has been proven wrong. While the new cards seem just too awesome because they let you do new things, they don't necessarily prevent you from doing the old things, and they can be stopped with the cards from the basic set. Is TB is a spoiler? Hell, I just played my first game in which DS cards were involved. Get back to me in a month. Nobody can make a judgement until then. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Dave Andrews S2...@nmu.edu

Greg Zuvich thoughtfully stated: :SacrificialLamb is pretty damn potent, but then it costs alot of blood for the : vampire to use it,4 I believe. Still, what's that compared to burning a :vampire. It costs 3, and the vampire gains pool equal to the *capacity* of the target vampire. It is pretty cool. Ewok -- //\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\\//\\ / Ewok Juan Burwell \ \ jmbu...@unix.amherst.edu jmbu...@amherst.edu / \\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\///\\//

In article <4a8e61$f...@mark.ucdavis.edu>, ez04...@bullwinkle.ucdavis.edu (Eric Wohlstadter) writes: > >While Thought's Betrayed is a good card, I still don't see it as becoming >a spoiler. You have to have several of the right cards, be in >combat, and have superior dominate to work. My guess is that you will be >ousted trying to get everything to work right. What card combo? all you need is TB and you keep from getting hosed in combat. As far as having greater dominate, any respectable bleeder will have plenty of minions with it. As far as Obedience countering it, that card also is a combat avoider and does no good in a combat deck, the only thing it will do is let your opponetn hold TB in their hand until the next combat. ~Biomechanoid

In article <dhoffman.7...@cris.com>, dhof...@cris.com (Daniel Hoffman) spammed: #What about Sacrificial Lamb? The card would be fine if it were still #considered diablerie. If that was the case people would think twice about #using it instead of using it at every opportunity, yet how much more powerful #is Sacrificial Lamb than Grave Robbing? Sacrificial Lamb is pretty damn potent, but then it costs alot of blood for the vampire to use it, 4 I believe. Still, what's that compared to burning a vampire. However, I believe this card was thought out by WotC. I remember that in Jyhad it was *very* rare for a vampire to actually get burned to the ash heap. Not only will it be more common now, but it may speed up game play. However, it is now possible to bring cards back into play with the advent of Necromancy. So you see, it does rather balance out in the end. #Is Thoughts Betrayed any worse than Fame was? Form of the Mist? Form of Mist rules!!! Of course the situation would be worse without a 4 card rule... -- Greg Zuvich |gzu...@symantec.com

As for these cards, Burning Wraith is useful, but hardly a game breaker. Around here, vampires get burned on a fairly regular basis, and we still use the Jyhad agro damage rules (needing x+2 agrivated to burn, where x is vamps current blood). I play a Nosferatu Potence/Protean deck (torn signpost+undead strength+claws of the dead=5 aggro for 1 blood. Just add fists of death for vamps with more blood.), and I generally burn 1 or 2 vamps a game. It has always been fairly easy to burn a vamp, you just had to try. By using Potence and Protean, Protean+Lucky Blow+Zack North, Sengir Dagger+Undead Strength, or Thaumaturgy strikes you can vaporize a vamp with some regularity. Burning Wraith just adds to these possibilities, but its cost is enormous ( 3 blood ), so it is likely that the vamp using it will be sent to torpor and or also burned. It is also easy to avoid by using Fortitude, S:CE, the Elisium, Dodges, or, you guessed it, Thoughts Betrayed. There is nothing more frustrating than hitting a minion with a strike for 7 agrivated damage, and having them play Skin of Steel ( Damn you, James! :-). So, yes, if you are playing, say, an all S+B Malkavian deck, and you are Bums Rushed by Angel, it is likely that you will be burned (unless you are packing TB) now, but if you have a deck with any combat or combat avoidance abilities, you can avoid it. As for Sacrificial Lamb, yes, this card is fairly buff, but again, its use can be avoided. Just stay out of torpor, and this card will do little more than clog up someones hand. To avoid torpor, just follow the above plan. Most decks can find ways to aviod torpor. You can use Fortitude ( Ventrue, Gangrel, Ravanos ) or, yes again, Thoughts Betrayed (Ventrue or Malk or Tremere or Giovani), or S:CE (Brujah, Gangrel, Toreador, Ventrue, Ravanos ) or the Elisium. Eventually though, you are going to end up in torpor, and when you do, IF the guy with Obf has SL in his hand and IF he has a ready vamp with superior OBF and IF that vamp has 3 blood and IF he doesn't get intercepted, you will get your vamp burned. But he also might be diablerized by Normal or Dimple ( who cares if one of them is Blood Hunted? ). Back to Thoughts Betrayed, my problem with it is that there is no way to avoid it, unlike both of the above cards. None. It can't be canceled or countered or avoided at all. There is even a debate as to whether or not you can use The Elsium to get out of it. As a defensive card, TB is perfectly reasonable, but it is effects on a offensive combat deck that frightens me. Think of TB in a Pot/Dom deck of Giovani and the new Brujah (like Constanza: (8) DOM, POT, CEL). In this case, cards like Burning Wraith are terifying. TB would be a fine card if it said something like " Minion using this card can't use any strikes " or something, but as it stands, it will make for outragously powerful combat decks, with no defense against them. -Peter D Bakija

In article <dhoffman.7...@cris.com> dhof...@cris.com (Daniel Hoffman) writes: > >Is Thoughts Betrayed any worse than Fame was? Form of the Mist? > >Fame cost your prey 3(+1) pool and there was nothing they could do about it. Almost nothing. That's why Fame is a spoiler, and errata'ed Unique. > >Form of mist made all Gangrel actions unblockable for no cost if they had >superior protean. It doesn't give a Malk S&B deck protection from combat. TB does. -- "Live Life with Heart." Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu

PDB6 wrote: > > Burning Wraith just adds to these possibilities, but its cost is enormous > ( 3 blood ), so it is likely that the vamp using it will be sent to torpor > and or also burned. It is also easy to avoid by using Fortitude, S:CE, > the Elisium, Dodges, or, you guessed it, Thoughts Betrayed. There is > nothing more frustrating than hitting a minion with a strike for 7 > agrivated damage, and having them play Skin of Steel ( Damn you, James! > :-). That would be me! Anyway, the problem is that there is NOTHING (!!) that you can do about Thoughts Betrayed. You give a good example in that all other strategies can be stopped: Combat (whether Guns&Cel. or Claws&Fur) is stopped by Fortitude. Stealth & Bleed is (somewhat) stopped by Intercept. Voting is stopped by Combat (Aww, Timothy Crowley was vaporized on the way to podium...) Thoughts Betrayed (if you build a deck around it, which consists of adding to any deck in which Dominate appears) cannot be stopped. The one time I have had it played against 'my' Gangrel combat deck, I survived. The person who played it was playing a Tremere deck. He didn't do anything horrible, he was just preventing himself from getting clawed in the face. However, if he had a press and burst of sunlight (for example) I would have been toast. As defense, TB is powerful. As offense, TB is out of control. James jham...@sunlab.cit.cornell.edu

> It's okay, James. Why bother? Your group plays 4-card, so > one or two cards possibly breaking the standard game won't > break /yours/. Well, consider an example from Magic. Time Vault was a game-breaker. Granted, you needed a 3 card combo to pull it off, but with 4 of each card, it's really likely to happen. > And since you guys don't play Malk, and Tremere isn't really > effective under 4-card (just try blocking all his Hawgs), > TB isn't something you should be worrying about. Well, I'm terrified of the Euro-Brujah (with Dominate) combat machine. "OK, I Thoughts Betrayed you, then tear off a signpost, use fists of death, blur, and on the last strike use burning wrath." Oh good. 17 damage, 2 of it aggravated. Fun, fun, fun. And not a thing I can do about it. Granted, it may not happen that often, but it is almost guaranteed to happen at least once during a game. Preventing your opponent from playing the game is wrong. That's what ticks me off about Blue in Magic. Counterspells prevent you from playing the game while leaving the Counterspeller completely in control. --James jham...@sunlab.cit.cornell.edu

In article <30CBB1...@sunlab.cit.cornell.edu> James Hamblin <jham...@sunlab.cit.cornell.edu> writes: >As defense, TB is powerful. As offense, TB is out >of control. It's okay, James. Why bother? Your group plays 4-card, so one or two cards possibly breaking the standard game won't break /yours/. And since you guys don't play Malk, and Tremere isn't really effective under 4-card (just try blocking all his Hawgs), TB isn't something you should be worrying about. -- [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <4aajus$2...@symiserver2.symantec.com>, gzu...@symantec.com (Greg Zuvich) writes: > In article <dhoffman.7...@cris.com>, dhof...@cris.com (Daniel Hoffman) > spammed: > #What about Sacrificial Lamb? The card would be fine if it were still > #considered diablerie. If that was the case people would think twice about > #using it instead of using it at every opportunity, yet how much more powerful > #is Sacrificial Lamb than Grave Robbing? > > Sacrificial Lamb is pretty damn potent, but then it costs alot of blood for the > vampire to use it, 4 I believe. Still, what's that compared to burning a > vampire. However, I believe this card was thought out by WotC. I remember that > in Jyhad it was *very* rare for a vampire to actually get burned to the ash heap. > Not only will it be more common now, but it may speed up game play. However, it > is now possible to bring cards back into play with the advent of Necromancy. So > you see, it does rather balance out in the end. > Actually it costs 3, but since after you spend 3, you get the vampie's CAPACITY in blood, you actually make a profit unless you are burning a Caitiff. > #Is Thoughts Betrayed any worse than Fame was? Form of the Mist? > > Form of Mist rules!!! Of course the situation would be worse without a 4 card > rule... > So you are saying that the situation is `worse'? There is no four card rule. :) > -- > Greg Zuvich |gzu...@symantec.com Ritaxis --

>And since you guys don't play Malk, and Tremere isn't really >effective under 4-card (just try blocking all his Hawgs), >TB isn't something you should be worrying about. A-hem, the smart tremere uses traps, not hawgs... course the guy who plays tremere against my Apathy hasnt figed that out yet... he he... ~mage bob

The superior version should only prevent the opposing minion from playing cards (errata), so cards that are already in play can be used just fine. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

pd...@aol.com (PDB6) wrote: >Alan, > >I don't want to turn this into a discussion on 4cl, as we already know the >general feeling on it, what is that fealing, and I'd like to put my 2.5cents in, to contribute tward the resiident paridiam... that is my apathy deck has verry few cards in it that I use more than twice.. It has 90 lib. cards (31 of wich are masters) and 14 vamps (at least one from each clan cept rav. and nos.) I use 5 different displ... and I've only LOST "ONE" game and that was by a malk S&b deck at the final table of the GENCON 95 turny... (I do have 4 Govern of the unaligned... everything elce is 3 or less) >I feel that TB is a card that was not entirely thought >out when it was designed, and will cause more problems to game balance >than it solves. yes I agree wholy with you on that one too... actually its the FIRST card ive seen that needed to be baned/restricted... ~mage bob