Sabbat War preview #3

Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with superior Cloak the Gathering! Should make for really interesting Lasombra decks! Andrei Rublev --- The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist. Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

Question for LSJ about the Blanket of Night card: The card text says to tap the modifying vampire, but can the card be played by a vampire that is already tapped (much like Cloak the Gathering)? Andrei Rublev [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8sevj0$bjo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? Yes. > I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to > say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card > has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with > superior Cloak the Gathering! > > Should make for really interesting Lasombra decks! No, it won't make for any interesting Lasombra decks. It probably won't go in any of mine. You want me to tap a vampire with superior obtenebration to make an action unblockable by one minion? Why wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? Two tapped minions for one action is not an acceptable loss. Especially when it can still be blocked by other minions, deflected, voted down, or whatever. They already have a stealth card that costs blood, so they don't need the basic level of the card either. Oh, well. Into every life a little rain must fall. Carpe Noctem. Lasombra http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra http://www.white-wolf.com/VTES/Checklist_SabbatWar.html [ quoted text not captured ]

These cards are just looking better and better. This is a marked recovery from the Talley card from Preview #1. Getting more psyched about Sabbat War every day. More quality work by John Van Fleet. Gotta love that guy. Troile [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8sevj0$bjo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? > Interesting...kind of. Amelia seems OK, but for one more cap you can get donal or constanza who have DOM and 2 votes. Wholey more useful. Amelia's ability is OK. Seems an anti-weenie strategy of sorts (combined with POT- should take out any <4 cap vamp with relative ease). Not sure about her. > I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to > say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card > has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with > superior Cloak the Gathering! > > Should make for really interesting Lasombra decks! > You think? Sacrifice a vampire's action that turn (and it has to be a good vampire, ie: with OBT) to get another vampire's action through (maybe). the action would have to be worthwhile. Maybe. A good toolbox card I suppose. Having seen 7 cards so far, i hope WW are saving the best for the set. matt [ quoted text not captured ]

I agree, very strong card with nice pic!! <andrei...@my-deja.com> a écrit dans le message : 8sevj0$bjo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... > Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? > > I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to > say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card > has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with > superior Cloak the Gathering! > > Should make for really interesting Lasombra decks! > > Andrei Rublev > --- > The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he > didn't exist. > > [ quoted text not captured ]

> Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? Amelia is definitely a weenie killer. :p > I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to > say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card > has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with > superior Cloak the Gathering! This card might have been cool. The only problem with it is that it requires a second vampire to *tap*. And with Superior Cloak, you can use an already tapped vampire to play it. Not so with this card. You are using 2 vamps to hopefully get one action through. A total waste. There are several Lasombra with Obf who could make perfect use of Elder Impersonation, a far better card. btw - I'm really digging the art work. Very reminiscient <sp> of the art that shows up on much of the Austin expansion. Sorrow --- "Are they dead?" - Pugsly "Does it matter?" - Wednesday

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:24:53 GMT, andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: >Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? > >I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to >say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card >has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with >superior Cloak the Gathering! Well... no, it doesn't actually ADD stealth. So someone with a Sports Bike could try, get Blanketed, and then someone else could Wake and Spirit's Touch. =) I personally like Amelia. Two words: Weenie Buster. =) -- Derek "Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge." - C. Darwin, 1871

> This card might have been cool. The only problem with it is that it > requires > a second vampire to *tap*. And with Superior Cloak, you can use an already > tapped vampire to play it. Not so with this card. You are using 2 vamps to > hopefully get one action through. A total waste. There are several > Lasombra > with Obf who could make perfect use of Elder Impersonation, a far better > card. > Especially considering the fact tha Lucita and Aurora can already perfom fortitude unblockable actions and that the lasombra do *not* have cheap good Vampires...you could better get blocked first, have Gratiano Hidden Lurk and play Entombment, IMO. Tim Eijpe -- On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise [ quoted text not captured ]

andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Question for LSJ about the Blanket of Night card: > > The card text says to tap the modifying vampire, but can the card be > played by a vampire that is already tapped (much like Cloak the > Gathering)? Yes, but it would have no effect, since in this case, the vampire must tap "to" produce the effect (unlike Cloak). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > The card text says to tap the modifying vampire, but can the card be > played by a vampire that is already tapped (much like Cloak the > Gathering)? Yes, to play it, but activating the power requires you to tap that vampire. If they are already tapped, you can play the card for no effect. -- James Coupe | PGP Key 0x5D623D5D "And all the while I'm thinking things that I can never share with him. I'm a bundle of confusion, yet it has a strange appeal. Did it all begin with him and the way he makes me feel?"

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, The Lasombra wrote: > No, it won't make for any interesting Lasombra decks. It probably > won't go in any of mine. You want me to tap a vampire with superior > obtenebration to make an action unblockable by one minion? Why > wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? OBT weenies are a possibility, and you won't necessarily have Dominate or the capacity you need. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 mgre...@my-deja.com wrote: > Interesting...kind of. Amelia seems OK, but for one more cap you can get > donal or constanza who have DOM and 2 votes. > Wholey more useful. Not necessarily. Donal and Constanza have problems being placed in the vote decks you want to put them in, precisely because they *don't* have PRE or even pre. > Amelia's ability is OK. Seems an anti-weenie strategy of sorts > (combined with POT- should take out any <4 cap vamp with relative > ease). Not sure about her. A deck where it's possible to kill the weenies, like one with Ebanezer, but where killing weenies isn't overly easy - you still need to take actions and use cards. I like it. > > Should make for really interesting Lasombra decks! > > > You think? Sacrifice a vampire's action that turn (and it has to be a > good vampire, ie: with OBT) to get another vampire's action through > (maybe). the action would have to be worthwhile. Maybe. A good toolbox > card I suppose. Not something I'd base a deck around, but it certainly seems to me that it could have some use. Presumably, the play-testers think so anyway. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Tim Eijpe wrote: > Especially considering the fact tha Lucita and Aurora can already perfom > fortitude unblockable actions and that the lasombra do *not* have cheap > good Vampires In Sabbat. How many of the old Sabbat vampires will turn up in the War has not been disclosed. For all we know, we could have every single Sabbat vampire being new (except Gratiano, of course, who is the man). A 3 capacity OBT vampire could certainly make the use of this card interesting. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <fn1muskok82a3qf00...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:24:53 GMT, andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > > >Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? > > > >I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to > >say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card > >has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with > >superior Cloak the Gathering! > > Well... no, it doesn't actually ADD stealth. So someone with a Sports > Bike could try, get Blanketed, and then someone else could Wake and > Spirit's Touch. =) You could say, Creation Rites a Lasombra weenie, put Obterneration on it, then put a Camrilla Vitae Slave on it. Voila! instant unblockable actions. > > I personally like Amelia. Two words: > > Weenie Buster. "And thou shalt go and spread destruction amongst those whose blood it thin" I believe that Beast, Arora, and Ebeneezer Rouge are going to form the Potence Triumverate of Pain. My faith is restored. Kill, Kill, Hate, Hate, Murder, Murder, Mutilate! -Episcopal High School Cheer Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Amelia's ability is OK. Seems an anti-weenie strategy of sorts > > (combined with POT- should take out any <4 cap vamp with relative > > ease). Not sure about her. > A deck where it's possible to kill the weenies, like one with Ebanezer, > but where killing weenies isn't overly easy - you still need to take > actions and use cards. I like it. Indeed. I hope there are at least a few more anti-weenie cards in the set. > > > Should make for really interesting Lasombra decks! > > You think? Sacrifice a vampire's action that turn (and it has to be a > > good vampire, ie: with OBT) to get another vampire's action through > > (maybe). the action would have to be worthwhile. Maybe. A good toolbox > > card I suppose. > Not something I'd base a deck around, but it certainly seems to me that it > could have some use. Presumably, the play-testers think so anyway. God, I hope not. Even with a few weenie OBT vamps (and I seriously doubt that there will be many, if any at all), the card is still way too costly. You could still bleed for 2 with that weenie and be able to stealth it through. I cannot see this card being seriously used in any deck. It's just not worth it. Although it would never happen, I'd love to hear what the playtesters thought of this card and how/why it made it through to this final version. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Well... no, it doesn't actually ADD stealth. So someone with a Sports > > Bike could try, get Blanketed, and then someone else could Wake and > > Spirit's Touch. =) > You could say, Creation Rites a Lasombra weenie, put Obterneration > on it, then put a Camrilla Vitae Slave on it. Voila! instant > unblockable actions. Um, no, sorry Norm. The action could still be blocked, just not by the initial blocker. Sorrow --- "...but you know, evil is an exact science..."

In article <8pFG5.6860$mC.4...@monger.newsread.com>, "Sorrow" <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote: > > > Well... no, it doesn't actually ADD stealth. So someone with a Sports > > > Bike could try, get Blanketed, and then someone else could Wake and > > > Spirit's Touch. =) > > You could say, Creation Rites a Lasombra weenie, put Obterneration > > on it, then put a Camrilla Vitae Slave on it. Voila! instant > > unblockable actions. > > Um, no, sorry Norm. The action could still be blocked, just not by the > initial blocker. Sure, it could be but this is a good mechanism for slowing down your prey. Now they have to block with two vamps not one. Therefore, they have to leave more untapped and/or use up more of their untapping mechanisms to catch you. Just think how much farther this card streches +1 stealth actions like political actions. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:49:25 GMT, The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote: >No, it won't make for any interesting Lasombra decks. It probably >won't go in any of mine. You want me to tap a vampire with superior >obtenebration to make an action unblockable by one minion? Why >wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? Two tapped Because you used Seduction on his untapped minion, and his Prince untapped with 2nd Tradition to jump in your way. Or because you saw 3 tapped minions with superior Auspex, and knew he had a Wake in his hand. There are plenty of reasons you wouldn't have leapt before you looked. >minions for one action is not an acceptable loss. Especially when it >can still be blocked by other minions, deflected, voted down, or >whatever. They already have a stealth card that costs blood, so they >don't need the basic level of the card either. Well, the basic level of the card is just that - basic. The true function of the card is the superior. Many Auspex cards are like this, providing +1 intercept at inferior, and then a neat special. I could easily see tossing three or four of these into a deck... ESPECIALLY for defense against things like 2nd Tradition when going for a kill. Add 1 or 2 stealth to get past the untapped minion, then when the only Prince tries to take a hand, remove him from the picture and oust. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Um, no, sorry Norm. The action could still be blocked, just not by > > the initial blocker. > Sure, it could be but this is a good mechanism for slowing down your > prey. Now they have to block with two vamps not one. So? While their first blocker is still untapped and usable later, your second minion is now unusable for any action unless you have some way to untap it. Not a great trade off. > Therefore, they have to leave more untapped and/or use up more of their > untapping mechanisms to catch you. Just think how much farther this card > streches +1 stealth actions like political actions. Except that the Lasombra already have really good access to other stealth cards. Ones that don't require a second vamp to *tap*. If I am going to build a deck that uses this type of effect, I'd rather include vamps that have Obf and use Elder Impersonation. Sorrow --- I keep telling them that I think they're out to get me. They ask me if I feel remose and I answer, "Why of course! There's so much more I could have done if they'd let me!" So it's Rorschach and Prozac and everything is groovy

In article <ZhGG5.6876$mC.4...@monger.newsread.com>, [ quoted text not captured ] Sure but how many clans can stealth, bleed, and fight with preeminence through the use of their disciplines? Lasombra are pretty much it. So you get a card that makes them unblockable to a intercept deck such as the Tzimice. Plus the mechanism that I have illustrated above only requires that your influenced vampires use one action and zero master phases for a 3cap with superior obt. that can now be used to make actions unblockable to one blocker. The Lasombra once again are the only clan that can do that outside of commiting diablerie. What it does is make the reacting Methuselah burn up all the transient intercept that they have to block you, and then have to burn up an equal amount doing it again. The card itself is okay, but when used in combonation with other clan resources it is quite nice. [ quoted text not captured ]

The Lasombra wrote: > In article <8sevj0$bjo$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>, > andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to > > say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card > > has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with > > superior Cloak the Gathering! > > > > Should make for really interesting Lasombra decks! > > No, it won't make for any interesting Lasombra decks. It probably > won't go in any of mine. You want me to tap a vampire with superior > obtenebration to make an action unblockable by one minion? Why > wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? I guess the answer to that is that you have a separate minion with superior Obtenebration available and the action minion does not have dominate - or more likely, superior dominate. The reason I say superior is that a card like Seduction or Blanket of Night is much more useful against decks with small numbers of high-cap vampires that sit there and dare you to get by them (or wake unexpectedly) as opposed to weenie vampires. Actually, what's probably more important is that Seduction has to be played as the action is announced. If the guy has a wake or something, he may have a choice of which vampire to wake and will know not to use it on the one or ones you seduce. Or not to bother at all. Using BoN, however, you can fight the influence of a Wake after he's already expended it. > Two tapped > minions for one action is not an acceptable loss. Especially when it > can still be blocked by other minions, deflected, voted down, or > whatever. They already have a stealth card that costs blood, so they > don't need the basic level of the card either. I don't know. The "reacting" point I mentioned above may be just the thing to get around a deck with sufficient intercept, depending on how many vampires your prey has left untapped and how many wakes/FAs he's holding. This can be very important on devasting but non-stealthy actions, such as getting a big bleed through or something like a Sensory Depravation. And the modify vampire doesn't need to be a major investment. Just a Creation Rites with an Obtenebration that you've managed to play a second Obtenebration skill card on will do the trick. I assume this has been well-playtested and LSJ et al had a good reason for costing it like this. I'm not sure I'd pass it over so quickly. Fred

Sorrow wrote: > > Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? > > Amelia is definitely a weenie killer. :p > > > I really like the new obtenebration card, Blanket of Night. I have to > > say that I am a pretty big fan of Elder Impersonation, but this card > > has an even better use: it combines superior Elder Impersonation with > > superior Cloak the Gathering! > > This card might have been cool. The only problem with it is that it requires > a second vampire to *tap*. And with Superior Cloak, you can use an already > tapped vampire to play it. Not so with this card. You are using 2 vamps to > hopefully get one action through. A total waste. I think you're assuming that an extra stealth will always get an action through. Not so. Try getting that last bleed past a single blocker with two Raven Spies on it. If you have a ton of stealth in your deck, maybe. But if you want to do it with a single card, maybe not so easy. > There are several Lasombra with Obf who could make perfect use of > Elder Impersonation, a far better card. I don't know that's "far better". It's different and it definitely has its advantages over Blanket of Night, I agree. Like James says, though, if you've got a weenie with superior Obtenebration, BoN is a great card. For one thing, it doesn't matter what disciplines the acting vampire does or doesn't have. Using Obtenebration skill cards plus Embraces or Creation Rites or even Third Traditions, you can use this card in a completely Lasombra-free deck! > btw - I'm really digging the art work. Very reminiscient <sp> of the art > that shows up on much of the Austin expansion. Eh? Actually, I don't really care for the "comic book art" stuff myself. To each his own, I guess. Fred

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 13:48:02 GMT, andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: >Question for LSJ about the Blanket of Night card: > >The card text says to tap the modifying vampire, but can the card be >played by a vampire that is already tapped (much like Cloak the >Gathering)? The card would be able to be played by a vampire that is already tapped, yes. However, the wording of the card matches that on Rom Gypsy, Al's Army Apparatus, etc. ad nauseam, where you "tap to" produce an effect. So it looks like you can burn the card out of your hand for a cost of 1 blood and no effect if you feel like it. That, or we can assume that Rom Gypsies and all the clan-stealth Masters can tap to produce their effect even when they're already tapped. Take your pick ;) (the Jar the Soul/etc. ruling, that a tapped vampire may be targeted for a "tap that vampire" action, doesn't seem to apply here, as it's dealing with an entirely different situation of tap-AS-effect as opposed to tap-to-PRODUCE-effect.) [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > > > > Question for LSJ about the Blanket of Night card: > > > > The card text says to tap the modifying vampire, but can the card be > > played by a vampire that is already tapped (much like Cloak the > > Gathering)? > > Yes, but it would have no effect, since in this case, the vampire > must tap "to" produce the effect (unlike Cloak). That's interesting. So you can burn a blood off of any of your vampires with Obtenebration just to cycle the card, apparently. Fred

> On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 mgre...@my-deja.com wrote: > > Interesting...kind of. Amelia seems OK, but for one more cap you can get > > donal or constanza who have DOM and 2 votes. > > Wholey more useful. Not really, unless you're going for a DOM based Brujah deck. I think Amelia is actually a tad undercosted and an extremely good vamp. I'm so used to the old cost system so I'd love this vamp strictly for the disciplines. Throw in a title and a killer special ability (especially since it fits with the clan theme) and you have just made wallpaper (in some cases) of Bianca and several other vamps. If nothing else you have added variety to your crypt (assuming the typical combat deck ignoring sect) without sacrificing ability. Can't wait to start kicking some ass with her. As for the Obt. card, it's handy and gives the Lasombra more ammo to go for just pure stealth & bleed. I just hope they get better Obt. combat or versatility cards. Alex

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000 22:08:27 GMT, Frederick Scott <fre...@netcom.com> wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Superior OBT. Inferior is only +1 stealth. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Sorrow wrote: > I cannot see this card being seriously used in any deck. It's just not > worth > it. It is another +1 stealth. +1 stealth is good. +1 stealth is lovely. The superior may blow chunks, but another source of +1 stealth, which can be stacked on all the old versions, is not entirely worthless. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Frederick Scott wrote: > That's interesting. So you can burn a blood off of any of your vampires > with Obtenebration just to cycle the card, apparently. Yes. Hence the cost. Burning a blood makes it not just cycling. It gives the card a cost, just like Forced Awakening has an effective cost (Burn a blood) for just cycling. [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <Pine.SOL.4.21.00101...@yellow.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > On Mon, 16 Oct 2000, Tim Eijpe wrote: > > Especially considering the fact tha Lucita and Aurora can already perfom > > fortitude unblockable actions and that the lasombra do *not* have cheap > > good Vampires > > In Sabbat. How many of the old Sabbat vampires will turn up in the War > has not been disclosed. For all we know, we could have every single > Sabbat vampire being new (except Gratiano, of course, who is the man). > > A 3 capacity OBT vampire could certainly make the use of this card > interesting. Or maybe a 4 capacity OBT dom vampire who will be under the blanket..given by hte 3 cap... Now that would make things interesting really fast, though pretty powerfull too. Tim -- PROPHECY OF GEHENNA: On The First Day Of Gehenna The Shrieking Wind Shall Be Silent And When A Black Sun Hangs From A Somber Sky Caine's Sleeping Children Shall Once Again Arise [ quoted text not captured ]

> >In Sabbat. How many of the old Sabbat vampires will turn up in the War >has not been disclosed. For all we know, we could have every single >Sabbat vampire being new (except Gratiano, of course, who is the man). I would imagine that we will only see reprints of the Sabbat vampires that have featured in the Vampire RPG in some way. Since Gratiano is an RPG character, it is very likely we will see him again. Similarly, Lambach will probably return, although Dragos probably won't. >A 3 capacity OBT vampire could certainly make the use of this card >interesting. I would hope that we see both a 3 cap Lasombra with OBT, and also a 4 cap Lasombra with OBT and another discipline at inferior too... Regards, Mike Nudd VEKN Prince of London mi...@vtes.org.uk http://www.vtes.org.uk/

James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > The superior may blow chunks, Actually, it's not as bad as people seem to think it is. Think Millicent Smith/Reversal of Fortune/Unblockable Actions. A deck based on OBT/DOM/OBF which is really easy to set up can use basic stealth cards, Seduction, Elder Impersonation, Blanket of Night and (possibly) Sleeping Mind to make an action virtually unblockable. Of course weenie decks might be a problem, but most of them can't come up with three blocking minions with intercept. Regards, Noal McDonald -- "I was probably pretty young, when I realised that I had come from what you might call a family, a clan, a race, maybe even a species, of pure sons of bitches." --Faulkner, "The Mansion" [ quoted text not captured ]

> No, it won't make for any interesting Lasombra decks. It probably > won't go in any of mine. Aren't you overreacting just a little bit? I thought for sure you would be excited about this card but I guess you missed its subtle power. I'll explain below. > You want me to tap a vampire with superior > obtenebration to make an action unblockable by one minion? Why > wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? Two tapped > minions for one action is not an acceptable loss. Who said you have to have two tapped minions? :) Especially when it > can still be blocked by other minions, deflected, voted down, or > whatever. They already have a stealth card that costs blood, so they > don't need the basic level of the card either. With Aurora (6 cap) and the introduction of Lucita (8 cap), the Las now have two vamps with fortitude. Build around this. Now add in Mitchell (2 cap) and/or Aaron Duggan (2 cap) and give them a OBT skill card and your ready to rock and roll. Now, bleed with Aurora and if any of your prey's vamps untap (if not already untapped) and generates intercept (since you of course can and will generate stealth) - have one of the weenies use Blanket of the Night to nullify the intercepting minion. Its going to be fairly hard for your prey to generate another minion that can block your action. At the end of the action, Freak Drive to untap Aurora. Now bleed with Lucita. Catching her is going to be even harder if your prey has Sabbat vampires due to her special ability. Use Aurora to play Blanket of the Night if your prey untaps and generates the needed intercept. At the end of the action, Freak Drive to untap Lucita. End result - two minions tapped (after two successful actions) with Lucita (with DOM for bouncing) untapped. If the Las get anyone else with fortitude in this set, this deck type gets even stronger. :) > Why wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? Because Blanket of the Night allows you to WAIT and see if your prey BURNS CARDS to untap and generate intercept (after you add stealth of course). Tapping a vamp to nullify all of these defensive cards is in my opinion, not to much to pay (esp. in this deck type). If you just play a Seduction, your prey will still have these cards in hand and ready to play when you attempt the next action (or the same action with a different vampire). Seduction doesn't do you much good when your prey has two tapped Princes and a 2nd tradition in hand. Blanket of the Night gets around this AND nullifies the 2nd tradition. Blanket of the Night is a lot like Chiropteran Marauder - Very subtle in power. While the Chiropteran Marauder might not seem like very exciting (free maneuver at minor and agg hand damage at superior) -its HUGE. Don't think a Tzim. player wouldn't want a FREE maneuver to move to long to blast back with a Breath of the Dragon or not to have to play a DotB in order for you not to run away from him? Think again. These cards we have seen in SW are awesome. Just my opinion - of course. Todd Banister Prince of Atlanta Scribe of the Assamites

In article <6xYG5.605$ds6....@eagle.america.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] Hmmm.... I'm not convinced you could pull this combo off more than twice in a game ever, due to the rareness of Freak Drives, and the fact it is essentially a 4 card combo. Far better to build a horde of weenie obtenebrators (the Embrace, Creation Rites, low cap chaps) and hit with a few heavy bleeds (I imagine this works like Cloak at superior, i.e. you can use as many minions as you want to play the card, but they can only play one at a time). Net result - unblockable actions for a weenie horde! Of course, if used in conjuction with Seduction you could be left with a real steamroler of a deck! The Freak Drive is probably just overkill. <snip> > Seduction doesn't do you much good when your prey has two tapped Princes and > a 2nd tradition in hand. Blanket of the Night gets around this AND nullifies > the 2nd tradition. But absolutely pants against a Deflection! This still doesn't get around the bleeders nightmare - bleed bouncers. > Blanket of the Night is a lot like Chiropteran Marauder - Very subtle in > power. While the Chiropteran Marauder might not seem like very exciting > (free maneuver at minor and agg hand damage at superior) -its HUGE. Don't > think a Tzim. player wouldn't want a FREE maneuver to move to long to blast > back with a Breath of the Dragon or not to have to play a DotB in order for > you not to run away from him? Think again. I agree. > These cards we have seen in SW are awesome. Has anyone noticed that the artwork from the library cards has a distinctly classical quality to them, far removed from the cartoon-like quality of the previous sets? Just *my* opinion - of course. DH [ quoted text not captured ]

> Now, bleed with Aurora and if any of your prey's vamps untap (if not already > untapped) and generates intercept (since you of course can and will generate > stealth) - have one of the weenies use Blanket of the Night to nullify the > intercepting minion. Its going to be fairly hard for your prey to generate > another minion that can block your action. At the end of the action, Freak > Drive to untap Aurora. Ok, so now your weenie is down a blood, tapped. After 2 more turns of doing nothing other than using BoN, he'll have to hunt and so will make him useless that turn. Aurora is also down 1 blood. Also, the action could not have been blocked by another minion as she has inferior fortitude. If she was blocked, the BoN was wasted (or you'd have to tap Lucita) and she (Aurora) cannot untap. > Now bleed with Lucita. Catching her is going to be even harder if your prey > has Sabbat vampires due to her special ability. Use Aurora to play Blanket > of the Night if your prey untaps and generates the needed intercept. At the > end of the action, Freak Drive to untap Lucita. So now Aurora is down 2 blood, not counting any blood she used for the cost of her last action. Lucita is also down a blood, not counting the blood she used for the action. You can trade off between Aurora and Lucita with regards to who BoN's who first, but after just a few turns, both will be way low on blood. > End result - two minions tapped (after two successful actions) with Lucita > (with DOM for bouncing) untapped. If the Las get anyone else with fortitude > in this set, this deck type gets even stronger. :) I would be very surprised if this were to happen. And when Lucita bounces, she loses even more blood, blood which is needed, direly, for the above combo to be able to get pulled off. > > Why wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? > Because Blanket of the Night allows you to WAIT and see if your prey BURNS > CARDS to untap and generate intercept (after you add stealth of course). This is the *only* place where BoN is useful. And even then, it's not really. Elder Impersonation is much better. Plus, after you do this once, your prey will most likely use token measures with an untapped minion to flush the BoN out of your hand and then block with their heavy hitter. What is wasting a few cards when you would have wasted much more otherwise? I'd much rather stick an Obf skill card on some of the Lasombra to use it over BoN. Tapping another minion, even if only a weenie, just isn't worth it. > Tapping a vamp to nullify all of these defensive cards is in my opinion, not > to much to pay (esp. in this deck type). If you just play a Seduction, your > prey will still have these cards in hand and ready to play when you attempt > the next action (or the same action with a different vampire). Elder Impersonation _*does the same thing*_ for the same cost without forcing a second vamp to tap. Also, it's not as if there is a Lasombra that cannot use stealth. If there were a few, I could understand why you would need a second vamp to help the first out. But all the Lasombra are perfectly capable of stealthing their own actions through. > Seduction doesn't do you much good when your prey has two tapped Princes and > a 2nd tradition in hand. Blanket of the Night gets around this AND nullifies > the 2nd tradition. With few exceptions, a Prince generally cannot get >+2 intercept while a Lasombra can easily get >+2 stealth. So they've still wasted the 2ndTrad and you still have an untapped second vamp. > Blanket of the Night is a lot like Chiropteran Marauder - Very subtle in > power. While the Chiropteran Marauder might not seem like very exciting > (free maneuver at minor and agg hand damage at superior) -its HUGE. Don't > think a Tzim. player wouldn't want a FREE maneuver to move to long to blast > back with a Breath of the Dragon or not to have to play a DotB in order for > you not to run away from him? Think again. How is this subtle? It's pretty blatent. What clan wouldn't want a free maneuver where it didn't really have one before? Or really cheap agg where they didn't have it before? Blanket of Night isn't giving the Lasombra anything they don't already have access to or can't already emulate (stealth past the played intercept). [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 14:24:28 GMT, hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: >In article <6xYG5.605$ds6....@eagle.america.net>, > "Todd Banister" <T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> wrote: >> End result - two minions tapped (after two successful actions) with >Lucita >> (with DOM for bouncing) untapped. If the Las get anyone else with >fortitude >> in this set, this deck type gets even stronger. :) > >Hmmm.... I'm not convinced you could pull this combo off more than >twice in a game ever, due to the rareness of Freak Drives, and the fact >it is essentially a 4 card combo. You forget that David Tatu (aka Freak Driver) is in our playgroup. This is the man who once included 20 Freak Drives in a deck. We aren't going to speculate about how many he may own, other than "at least 20". =) The thought of card rarity ever stopping a combo should've been totally obliterated by the Temptation of Greater Power decks, as it's one of the rarer cards out there and people can STILL rummage around and find 12. 3 and 4 card combos aren't all THAT bad - especially when it's an "oust yo' prey" type of combo, as opposed to a "beat yo' ass" type. 5 card combos start to wander down the Path of No Return, and anything more is usually just silly unless you only have 6 different cards in your deck. >Far better to build a horde of weenie obtenebrators (the Embrace, >Creation Rites, low cap chaps) and hit with a few heavy bleeds (I >imagine this works like Cloak at superior, i.e. you can use as many >minions as you want to play the card, but they can only play one at a >time). Net result - unblockable actions for a weenie horde! Question: how do you get heavy bleeds from an Embraced OBT weenie, since OBT has no bleed modifiers and the poor guy who's making all these weenies is out of blood from Embracing? =) It DOES work like Cloak, but I really don't see tapping three additional minions per action just to get one bleed through as terribly effective =) And they have to hunt the very next turn, since they're small and toad-like. >> Seduction doesn't do you much good when your prey has two tapped >Princes and >> a 2nd tradition in hand. Blanket of the Night gets around this AND >nullifies >> the 2nd tradition. > >But absolutely pants against a Deflection! This still doesn't get >around the bleeders nightmare - bleed bouncers. Good thing, too. Bleed begets bleed bounce. If Ye Bleed for Six, Risk It Ye Shall. It's still plenty powerful to just send a bunch of guys for 3 each. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

> > > Why wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? > > Because Blanket of the Night allows you to WAIT and see if your prey BURNS > > CARDS to untap and generate intercept (after you add stealth of course). > > This is the *only* place where BoN is useful. And even then, it's not > really. > Elder Impersonation is much better. Plus, after you do this once, your prey > will most likely use token measures with an untapped minion to flush the BoN > out of your hand and then block with their heavy hitter. What is wasting a > few cards when you would have wasted much more otherwise? > I'd much rather stick an Obf skill card on some of the Lasombra to use it > over > BoN. Tapping another minion, even if only a weenie, just isn't worth it. Elder Impersonation is comparable to this card - but how many Las. have superior OBF so that they can use EI? Answer - *None* without a skill card and even with the skill card its only 3. How many Las have OBT from Sabbat? I think its 6 and you the Las are getting more vamps with OBT in Sabbat War. > Elder Impersonation _*does the same thing*_ for the same cost without > forcing a second vamp to tap. > Also, it's not as if there is a Lasombra that cannot use stealth. If there > were > a few, I could understand why you would need a second vamp to help the > first out. But all the Lasombra are perfectly capable of stealthing their > own > actions through. Actually, EI does *not* do the same thing. EI untaps the blocking minion after its block failed while BoN does not do this. This is key when the blocking minion had to play a card to untap. > But all the Lasombra are perfectly capable of stealthing their own actions through. Using only OBT, they could generate +3 stealth (+2 from Shadow Play and +1 from Shroud of Night). What happens when they went up against a dedicated Tzim intercept deck and +3 stealth is not enough? BoN allows a way to make blocking the Las much harder. > With few exceptions, a Prince generally cannot get >+2 intercept while a > Lasombra can easily get >+2 stealth. So they've still wasted the 2ndTrad > and you still have an untapped second vamp. ??? Princes can generate a lot more than +2 if they are packing anything else besides a simple 2nd tradition. Down here in the south, +3 stealth will get blocked a lot of times. Just ask Derrek why. :) > Blanket of Night isn't giving the Lasombra anything they don't already > have access to or can't already emulate (stealth past the played intercept). BoN gives the Las another form of stealth and an excellent way of making intercepting them a lot harder. [ quoted text not captured ]

Todd Banister wrote in message <6xYG5.605$ds6....@eagle.america.net>... >Aren't you overreacting just a little bit? I thought for sure you would be >excited about this card but I guess you missed its subtle power. I'll >explain below. Its difference from Elder Impersonation is subtle; however, this card eats. > >> You want me to tap a vampire with superior >> obtenebration to make an action unblockable by one minion? Why >> wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? Two tapped >> minions for one action is not an acceptable loss. > >Who said you have to have two tapped minions? :) Here comes the "Freak Drive" argument. You know, Freak Drive is like mayonnaise - everything is better with it. Even Werewolf Pack is better with Freak Drive ;-p > Especially when it >> can still be blocked by other minions, deflected, voted down, or >> whatever. They already have a stealth card that costs blood, so they >> don't need the basic level of the card either. > >With Aurora (6 cap) and the introduction of Lucita (8 cap), the Las now have >two vamps with fortitude. Build around this. Now add in Mitchell (2 cap) >and/or Aaron Duggan (2 cap) and give them a OBT skill card and your ready to >rock and roll. > >Now, bleed with Aurora and if any of your prey's vamps untap (if not already >untapped) and generates intercept (since you of course can and will generate >stealth) - have one of the weenies use Blanket of the Night to nullify the >intercepting minion. Its going to be fairly hard for your prey to generate >another minion that can block your action. At the end of the action, Freak >Drive to untap Aurora. > >Now bleed with Lucita. Catching her is going to be even harder if your prey >has Sabbat vampires due to her special ability. Use Aurora to play Blanket >of the Night if your prey untaps and generates the needed intercept. At the >end of the action, Freak Drive to untap Lucita. > >End result - two minions tapped (after two successful actions) with Lucita >(with DOM for bouncing) untapped. If the Las get anyone else with fortitude >in this set, this deck type gets even stronger. :) You know, Fortitude is like mayonnaise - if you leave it out of the fridge, it will go bad and give you diarrhea. > >> Why wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? > >Because Blanket of the Night allows you to WAIT and see if your prey BURNS >CARDS to untap and generate intercept (after you add stealth of course). >Tapping a vamp to nullify all of these defensive cards is in my opinion, not >to much to pay (esp. in this deck type). If you just play a Seduction, your >prey will still have these cards in hand and ready to play when you attempt >the next action (or the same action with a different vampire). > >Seduction doesn't do you much good when your prey has two tapped Princes and >a 2nd tradition in hand. Blanket of the Night gets around this AND nullifies >the 2nd tradition. Supapoopa. Supa, supapoopa. > >Blanket of the Night is a lot like Chiropteran Marauder - Very subtle in >power. While the Chiropteran Marauder might not seem like very exciting >(free maneuver at minor and agg hand damage at superior) -its HUGE. Don't >think a Tzim. player wouldn't want a FREE maneuver to move to long to blast >back with a Breath of the Dragon or not to have to play a DotB in order for >you not to run away from him? Think again. No, Blanket of Night is NOT like ChopPop MoRocca. ChairOpTrain Malodor is much more useful. The only way Blanket of Night could have been really different and interesting is if it TAPPED the minion who attempted to block. That way, it's different from Elder Impersonation, and since it wouldn't stop someone who played a wake, it's not too powerful. At the end of your action, you have two tapped minions, at least one tapped on their side, and a successful action. > >These cards we have seen in SW are awesome. Yes they are. And I will be trading you all the Blanket of Nights I get for ChopSlopMalarkers. > >Just my opinion - of course. > >Todd Banister >Prince of Atlanta >Scribe of the Assamites WEeeeeeEeeeeEe - BTW, COPS was in Atlanta last night, and I thought of you and DragonCon, and I was disappointed they didn't show the footage of raiding the Austin players' hotel rooms. Man it was fun watching the Lasombra argue about the 10 pounds of heroin he had fashioned into cards to escape detection... Mike Ooi Insane Prince of Houston, TX Home of the functionally-named Houston Texans NFL Team sh...@texas.net

Todd Banister wrote in message ... [cut to the chase] >Actually, EI does *not* do the same thing. EI untaps the blocking minion >after its block failed while BoN does not do this. This is key when the >blocking minion had to play a card to untap. Not according to its card text. It makes the block fail; and barring a superior Faceless Night, a failed block untaps (or "does not tap") the attempted blocker. Elder Impersonation's wording about untapping the blocker is redundant and non-useful as we've seen in arguments from people wanting to untap their "waked" minion due to EI's card text. If you play a Blanket of Night after I've played a 2nd Tradition, my prince will be untapped at the end of your action. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 16:44:04 GMT, "Mike Ooi" <sh...@texas.net> wrote: > >Todd Banister wrote in message ... > >[cut to the chase] >>Actually, EI does *not* do the same thing. EI untaps the blocking minion >>after its block failed while BoN does not do this. This is key when the >>blocking minion had to play a card to untap. > >Not according to its card text. It makes the block fail; and barring a >superior Faceless Night, a failed block untaps (or "does not tap") the >attempted blocker. Elder Impersonation's wording about untapping the blocker >is redundant and non-useful as we've seen in arguments from people wanting >to untap their "waked" minion due to EI's card text. If you play a Blanket >of Night after I've played a 2nd Tradition, my prince will be untapped at >the end of your action. Are you feeling OK? ... You sound rational here. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Elder Impersonation is comparable to this card - but how many Las. have > superior OBF so that they can use EI? Answer - *None* without a skill card Excuse me? You brought up skill cards saying that you can stick Obt on a weenie putting them at superior. I'd rather put Obf, making it superior, instead to use Elder Impersonation. > and even with the skill card its only 3. How many Las have OBT from Sabbat? > I think its 6 and you the Las are getting more vamps with OBT in Sabbat War. Doesn't matter. If I were to go with this type of strategy, the same type offered by BoN, I'd rather use Elder Impersonation and get the most possible actions (for not a significant amount of blood as would be required in using Freak Drive) out of my minions. > Actually, EI does *not* do the same thing. EI untaps the blocking minion > after its block failed while BoN does not do this. This is key when the > blocking minion had to play a card to untap. Oooh, bad Todd.. bad prince. "Elder Impersonation [AH] - Action Modifier (obf) The failed blocker is not untapped, but rather "not tapped" - if the blocker was tapped originally, he will remain tapped (errata). [RTR 19960708]" EI does do the exact same thing. > > But all the Lasombra are perfectly capable of stealthing their own actions > through. > Using only OBT, they could generate +3 stealth (+2 from Shadow Play and +1 > from Shroud of Night). And Shadow Body for actions that != Bleed or Political. Plus, this card makes it +4 (inferior being the only way I'd use the card). That's not including stealth that Obf could provide. > What happens when they went up against a dedicated Tzim intercept deck > and +3 stealth is not enough? BoN allows a way to make blocking the Las > much harder. There are plenty of ways that a Lasombra can keep from worrying about a Tzim intercept deck in combat. Even so, BoN is not justified by the worry of one particular clan. There is no other type of dedicated intercept deck that I'd be overly worried about (including Tremere). > > With few exceptions, a Prince generally cannot get >+2 intercept while a > > Lasombra can easily get >+2 stealth. So they've still wasted the 2ndTrad > > and you still have an untapped second vamp. > ??? Princes can generate a lot more than +2 if they are packing anything > else besides a simple 2nd tradition. Down here in the south, +3 stealth will > get blocked a lot of times. Just ask Derrek why. :) I said "with few exceptions". Most Princely intercept generally relies on 2ndTrad and something like the KRCG. I don't see Ventrue, Brujah, Nos, etc princes able to generate more than the +2 offered by the 2ndTrad. The Toreador are really the only ones that can effectively generate >+2 w/o relying on permanents. > > Blanket of Night isn't giving the Lasombra anything they don't already > > have access to or can't already emulate (stealth past the played > intercept). > BoN gives the Las another form of stealth This is good. Again, I'd only ever use the card at inferior. > and an excellent way of making intercepting them a lot harder. At much too great a cost. Sorrow --- I told the priest - don't count on any second coming. God got his ass kicked the first time he came down here slumming. He had the balls to come, the gall to die and then forgive us. No, I don't wonder why, I wonder what he thought it would get us

> Here comes the "Freak Drive" argument. You know, Freak Drive is like > mayonnaise - everything is better with it. Even Werewolf Pack is better with > Freak Drive ;-p :) All I was doing was pointing out that with the new vamps, the Las had an option of using the Freak Drives. > You know, Fortitude is like mayonnaise - if you leave it out of the fridge, > it will go bad and give you diarrhea. Gross! I just got over a case of anal vomitting last week ...err... correct that... "food poisoning". > >These cards we have seen in SW are awesome. > > Yes they are. And I will be trading you all the Blanket of Nights I get for > ChopSlopMalarkers. Hmm... this sounds like you are trying to sell me that ocean front property in the desert... :) > WEeeeeeEeeeeEe - BTW, COPS was in Atlanta last night, and I thought of you > and DragonCon, and I was disappointed they didn't show the footage of > raiding the Austin players' hotel rooms. Man it was fun watching the > Lasombra argue about the 10 pounds of heroin he had fashioned into cards to > escape detection... Is that why he got sooo upset during the tournament when he was missing an Arms of the Abyss out of his deck? I offered to give him one but he said I did not understand the importance of that card. :) Just kidding, Jeff. Hey, I had a great time with your group at DragonCon and can't wait to get together again. Ethan, when will you be by again on business? See ya, TB

> Excuse me? You brought up skill cards saying that you can stick Obt on a > weenie putting them at superior. I'd rather put Obf, making it superior, > instead to use Elder Impersonation. I understand - My point is that I tend to build decks where most of the vampires in my crypt have to skill set needed to play the concept. When I build Las decks, I tend to focus heavilly on OBT. I personally would rather put in OBT skill cards over OBF skill cards because I can use them to boost the weenies so that they can play BoN and Arms of the Abyss/Entombment at superior. This is just a matter of personal style. > Oooh, bad Todd.. bad prince. > > "Elder Impersonation [AH] - Action Modifier (obf) > The failed blocker is not untapped, but rather "not tapped" - if the blocker > was > tapped originally, he will remain tapped (errata). [RTR 19960708]" Arrrggg... I was caught red-headed... I mean red-handed. Thats what I get for just looking up the card text and not checking the corrections list. Sorry 'bout that. > There are plenty of ways that a Lasombra can keep from worrying about a > Tzim intercept deck in combat. Even so, BoN is not justified by the worry > of one particular clan. There is no other type of dedicated intercept deck > that I'd be overly worried about (including Tremere). If you have played against Churchill in a tournament, you might not be so happy to fight a Tzim in combat. For me, I want to be as far away from combat as possible. > I said "with few exceptions". Most Princely intercept generally relies on > 2ndTrad and something like the KRCG. I don't see Ventrue, Brujah, Nos, > etc princes able to generate more than the +2 offered by the 2ndTrad. > The Toreador are really the only ones that can effectively generate >+2 > w/o relying on permanents. This may just come down to the style of your local play group. I guess Atlanta is just a bunch of odd balls as we regularly have Bru decks that generate +4/+5 intercept (what a pain in the arse!). I think BoN would work fine for our group but very well may be semi-useless in other areas. No big deal. > > > > Blanket of Night isn't giving the Lasombra anything they don't already > > > have access to or can't already emulate (stealth past the played > > intercept). > > BoN gives the Las another form of stealth > > This is good. Again, I'd only ever use the card at inferior. > > > and an excellent way of making intercepting them a lot harder. > > At much too great a cost. Here we differ - but no biggie. Take care and see ya soon. TB

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:33:27 -0400, "Todd Banister" <T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> wrote: >Is that why he got sooo upset during the tournament when he was missing an >Arms of the Abyss out of his deck? I offered to give him one but he said I >did not understand the importance of that card. :) Just kidding, Jeff. Hey, >I had a great time with your group at DragonCon and can't wait to get >together again. Ethan, when will you be by again on business? You didn't phrase that correctly to get an answer. "HEY ETHAN. FREE DRAFT HOEGAARDEN AND PAULANER IN ATLANTA!" *now* you'll get an answer. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:56:42 -0400, "Todd Banister" <T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> wrote: >> I said "with few exceptions". Most Princely intercept generally relies on >> 2ndTrad and something like the KRCG. I don't see Ventrue, Brujah, Nos, >> etc princes able to generate more than the +2 offered by the 2ndTrad. >> The Toreador are really the only ones that can effectively generate >+2 >> w/o relying on permanents. > >This may just come down to the style of your local play group. I guess >Atlanta is just a bunch of odd balls as we regularly have Bru decks that >generate +4/+5 intercept (what a pain in the arse!). I think BoN would work >fine for our group but very well may be semi-useless in other areas. No big >deal. Give Rake an Auspex skill card and you have access to 2nd Tradition/Enhanced Senses... also referred to as "Untap with +4 intercept." This puts a cramp in any stealth deck's day since not only do you slap inferior Night Moves around, you also catch the Forgotten Labyrinth vote decks. You also have a pretty good chance of nailing someone who has only included Lost in Crowds/Faceless/Cloak in his deck, all for only 2 cards. And Sheldon can do it WITHOUT the skill card. I'm much more afraid of Sheldon than I am of Rake, frankly, since without skill cards, Rake is pretty much a Lid-tosser. (some days Rake is JUST a tosser.) But in a fight-stuff deck, having Rake around to provide some vote influence and intercept isn't always that bad, even if he doesn't make stuff dead very well. And in an Anathema deck, Rake is VERY nice to have standing by to call that vote. =) Maybe that's just our world... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <tj5pus8lo51qqiebv...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 13:33:27 -0400, "Todd Banister" > <T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> wrote: > > >Is that why he got sooo upset during the tournament when he was missing an > >Arms of the Abyss out of his deck? I offered to give him one but he said I > >did not understand the importance of that card. :) Just kidding, Jeff. Hey, > >I had a great time with your group at DragonCon and can't wait to get > >together again. Ethan, when will you be by again on business? > > You didn't phrase that correctly to get an answer. > > "HEY ETHAN. FREE DRAFT HOEGAARDEN AND PAULANER IN ATLANTA!" > > *now* you'll get an answer. =) <Snort, yawn>...did someone say FREE DRAFT HOEGAARDEN AND PAULANER? Dunno if I can make it out again before DragonCon, but we'll see ;-) p.s. The Assamites suck. ------------------------------- Ethan Burrow - Prince of Austin et...@ddg.com http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/ [ quoted text not captured ]

> p.s. The Assamites suck. D'ems fighten words! Don't make me take out my anger on my local players again! <big grin> Seriously, keep us in mind and drop by anytime. We'd love to have you again and Derek would love to have another excuse to go drinking. :) Take care, TB

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Noal McDonald wrote: > James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: > > The superior may blow chunks, > > Actually, it's not as bad as people seem to think it is. Oh, I'm inclined to agree. I can see use, but rarely as the basis of a strategy. However, the inferior is Still Playable. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Sorrow wrote: Chiroptean Marauder: > maneuver where it didn't really have one before? Or really cheap agg > where they didn't have it before? 1 blood and a superior discipline is really cheap? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Sorrow wrote: > > Elder Impersonation is comparable to this card - but how many Las. have > > superior OBF so that they can use EI? Answer - *None* without a skill card > > Excuse me? You brought up skill cards saying that you can stick Obt on a > weenie putting them at superior. I'd rather put Obf, making it superior, > instead to use Elder Impersonation. A single card to get you OBT is better than 2 to get you OBF, which would be required in most cases. Playable, yes, but I *like* Blanket of Night. Obtenebration isn't supposed to be as powerful as Obfuscate. If it was, it'd be Obfuscate. [ quoted text not captured ]

hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > > These cards we have seen in SW are awesome. > > Has anyone noticed that the artwork from the library cards has a > distinctly classical quality to them, far removed from the cartoon-like > quality of the previous sets? Er, no. I would have said presisely the opposite. Well, I wouldn't call the previous ones really "classical", but the SW artwork on Chiropteran Marauder, Amelia, and Blanket of Night sure looks more "cartoon-like" than almost anything I can think of in any of the previous sets. The other previews look OK, I guess - not better or worse or even very distinctly different in style from previous Jyhad cards. > Just *my* opinion - of course. I think that's pretty much understood when commenting on art. Fred

andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: >Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? "...Amelia and Beast, sitting in a tree. K-I-S...." Eew. Some good auto-rush deck concepts could come out of this, though. An extra vamp with auto-rush at less than 10 cap (Wynn?) goes a long way towards helping RUsh decks with their card cycling, even with the target capacity restriction aside... Regards, R. David Zopf guenh...@mindspring.com Atom Weaver

hamd...@my-deja.com wrote: > In article <6xYG5.605$ds6....@eagle.america.net>, > "Todd Banister" <T_Ban...@Premier-Lending.com> wrote: (About some scheme or other he had to use Blank of Night.) (I wonder why the guy who named the subject of this thread stuck a small 't' between the small 'o' and large 'N"?) > >... At the end of the action, Freak Drive to untap Aurora. > > > > Now bleed with Lucita. Catching her is going to be even harder if > > your prey has Sabbat vampires due to her special ability. Use Aurora to > play > > Blanket of the Night if your prey untaps and generates the needed > intercept. ^^^ (must be a silent t-h-e :) ) > > > At the end of the action, Freak Drive to untap Lucita. > > > > End result - two minions tapped (after two successful actions) with > > Lucita (with DOM for bouncing) untapped. If the Las get anyone else > with > > f ortitude in this set, this deck type gets even stronger. :) > > Hmmm.... I'm not convinced you could pull this combo off more than > twice in a game ever, due to the rareness of Freak Drives, and the fact > it is essentially a 4 card combo. I'll give you the 4-card combo but what would the "rareness of Freak Drives" have to do with anything? Fer cryin' out loud, it's not even an expansion rare. It's in the main set - with all of the cheap Jyhad boxes and everything. Technically speaking, it's not even a proper 'rare'. It's an R2. You could probably make a 90-card deck of nothing but Freak Drives in it if you tried hard enough. Given the existance of Legacy of Pander decks, I find this comment rather laughable, myself. Fred

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 23:34:02 +0100, James Coupe <jr...@cam.ac.uk> wrote: >On Tue, 17 Oct 2000, Sorrow wrote: > >Chiroptean Marauder: >> maneuver where it didn't really have one before? Or really cheap agg >> where they didn't have it before? > >1 blood and a superior discipline is really cheap? Well, yeah, 'cause before it was 2 blood and an inferior ... hmm... yeah. YEAH! YEAH DAMMIT! Superior Body Arsenal will not fail to see use, I suspect... 2 agg is much more than just "1 better than 1 agg." [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2000 22:49:03 GMT, guenh...@mindspring.com (R. David Zopf) wrote: >andrei...@my-deja.com wrote: > >>Has anybody gotten a good look at the next preview cards? > >"...Amelia and Beast, sitting in a tree. K-I-S...." Eew. >Some good auto-rush deck concepts could come out of this, though. An >extra vamp with auto-rush at less than 10 cap (Wynn?) goes a long way >towards helping RUsh decks with their card cycling, even with the >target capacity restriction aside... So I get out Beast, Amelia, and Wynn, and I Minion Tap them all down to about 3. They use Taste as necessary, of course, and I totally FAIL to include Rush actions in my deck. I perhaps include Ebaneezer Roush as well, giving me all kinds of beat-em-up, rah rah rah action against weenies, and not exactly a bad situation against non-weenies. I like it. =) [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip>> > No, it won't make for any interesting Lasombra decks. It probably > won't go in any of mine. You want me to tap a vampire with superior > obtenebration to make an action unblockable by one minion? Why > wouldn't I just have used Seduction in the first place? Two tapped > minions for one action is not an acceptable loss. Especially when it > can still be blocked by other minions, deflected, voted down, or > whatever. They already have a stealth card that costs blood, so they > don't need the basic level of the card either. <snip> > Lasombra > Heck Lasombra, The card does several things. First, it provides an additional +1 Stealth for Obtenebration users (not just Lasombra) Second, it gives you a measure of flexibility that you never had before using just Obtenebration without having to rely upon Obfuscate (of which there are only 5 vampire minions that possess those disciplines Josef - !Nosferatu - 4 Guido - Lasombra - 5 Quira - !Malkavian - 6 Gratiano - Lasombra - 8 Angelica - Lasombra - 10 Third, it gives some functionality to another Obtenebration card that has a major Achilles' Heel at superior (IMHO), Shadow Body. I can see the card being the partial band-aid to that card at the very least. Especially when the Lasombra do enjoy performing Creation Rites and Embraces to help provide additional political strength when coupled with Power Structure. I see the card as not being a great card, but one that would certainly find entry into my decks just because of the potential of it's usefulness in some unforeseen situation that somehow seems to arise in at least every other game to help me clinch a VP or to just help me accomplish something that is essential for the deck continued existence on the table. Now, will it replace all my Shadow Play's and Shroud of Night's? No. But it will augment them to some degree. My 2 pool. Michael Eichler Prince of Ramstein -- Worry comes from the belief you are powerless. (So get in there and kick some butt!) [ quoted text not captured ]

> >Far better to build a horde of weenie obtenebrators (the Embrace, > >Creation Rites, low cap chaps) and hit with a few heavy bleeds (I > >imagine this works like Cloak at superior, i.e. you can use as many > >minions as you want to play the card, but they can only play one at a > >time). Net result - unblockable actions for a weenie horde! > > Question: how do you get heavy bleeds from an Embraced OBT weenie, > since OBT has no bleed modifiers and the poor guy who's making all > these weenies is out of blood from Embracing? =) Answer: Use the bigger Lasombra, with Dominate to do the Big Bleed and use the cheap weenies to do the unblockability thing. > It DOES work like Cloak, but I really don't see tapping three > additional minions per action just to get one bleed through as > terribly effective =) And they have to hunt the very next turn, since > they're small and toad-like. I guess my assumption was that you would be facing at most 3 - 4 minions at most on the other side. Typically 2 - 3 are tapped, and allowing for a wake up call or two, you will need 3 - 4 weenies to get you through for most of the game. However, any Deflections and Wakes would dry up quite quickly. But then again so will the Blankets... So you start with a Seduction to get one minion off your back, and use the weenies to get you through the rest. Maybe not terribly efficient, but gets you through a few times. And you can get some blood back from Hunting grounds, and some from Sermon of Cains and Gird Minions etc. DH [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Chiroptean Marauder: > > maneuver where it didn't really have one before? Or really cheap agg > > where they didn't have it before? > 1 blood and a superior discipline is really cheap? 1 blood is cheaper than the 2 required by Body Arsenal. The Tzimisce already have a problem with blood management and any little bit helps. Also, there are only 4 of the 10 Tzimisce currently available that have vic. All the others have VIC so yes, that is cheap. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > Excuse me? You brought up skill cards saying that you can stick Obt on a > > weenie putting them at superior. I'd rather put Obf, making it superior, > > instead to use Elder Impersonation. > A single card to get you OBT is better than 2 to get you OBF, which would > be required in most cases. Agreed. However, you snipped the part of this post where I said that if I were to build a deck around the type of strategy offered by BoN, I would rather do it with Obfuscate. There are 3 Lasombra that already have Obf and it would take only a skill card to make Elder Impersonation usable at superior. > Playable, yes, but I *like* Blanket of Night. Obtenebration isn't > supposed to be as powerful as Obfuscate. If it was, it'd be Obfuscate. It doesn't have to be as powerful. But it definitely shouldn't be significantly weaker. No matter how you cut it, sacrificing a minion action (a commodity that is generally at a premium) just for the *possibility* that the current action would go unblocked is too steep a cost. So what if this minion can't block, that minion can. You are going to waste another of your minion actions to make it so that one can't, to? Again, so what if the minion playing BoN is a weenie. You can Computer Hack with it, playing OBT stealth, and flush out their defenses just as well. Sorrow --- "This is my costume. I'm a homicidal maniac. They look just like everyone else." -- Wednesday Addams

> >>Chiroptean Marauder: > >> maneuver where it didn't really have one before? Or really cheap agg > >> where they didn't have it before? > >1 blood and a superior discipline is really cheap? > Well, yeah, 'cause before it was 2 blood and an inferior ... hmm... > yeah. YEAH! YEAH DAMMIT! See my reply to James' post. > Superior Body Arsenal will not fail to see use, I suspect... 2 agg is > much more than just "1 better than 1 agg." I don't expect that it will. But since blood management is difficult for the Tzimisce, I would see this being used alot more. Especially due to the Maneuver. If the opposing minion doesn't go to range, it can be used for agg, cycling it out whereas BA would be a waste of blood at long range. Sorrow --- no hate no wars no ignorance no politics no pain no force no weapons no oppression no sorrow no chemicals no dust no leaders no violence no dust no leaders no leaders now it's time for the world to see a man with open eyes now it's time to realize we tell ourselves the best of lies

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Derek Ray wrote: > >Chiroptean Marauder: > >> maneuver where it didn't really have one before? Or really cheap agg > >> where they didn't have it before? > > > >1 blood and a superior discipline is really cheap? > > Well, yeah, 'cause before it was 2 blood and an inferior ... hmm... > yeah. YEAH! YEAH DAMMIT! > > Superior Body Arsenal will not fail to see use, I suspect... 2 agg is > much more than just "1 better than 1 agg." I do wonder if there will be a Path of Looking Gross (or some similar card) to reduce the cost of playing Vicissitude cards. (Which won't impact superior Chiroptean, since the cost of playing the card is 0.) [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Sorrow wrote: > > > Excuse me? You brought up skill cards saying that you can stick Obt on > a > > > weenie putting them at superior. I'd rather put Obf, making it > superior, > > > instead to use Elder Impersonation. > > A single card to get you OBT is better than 2 to get you OBF, which would > > be required in most cases. > > Agreed. However, you snipped the part of this post where I said that if > I were to build a deck around the type of strategy offered by BoN, I would > rather do it with Obfuscate. Indeed. A possibility. > There are 3 Lasombra that already have Obf > and it would take only a skill card to make Elder Impersonation usable at > superior. But since you only have three, for some folks, it's a non-starter. A lot of people don't like basing decks around a very small selection of vamps. Which is where Blanket of Night comes in. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Coupe wrote in message ... >I do wonder if there will be a Path of Looking Gross (or some similar >card) to reduce the cost of playing Vicissitude cards. (Which won't >impact superior Chiroptean, since the cost of playing the card is 0.) It will be called the Path of Arseface (from the Preacher comic book series). [ quoted text not captured ]

Derek Ray wrote in message <1oaquscoco24r2ur2...@4ax.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] This was exactly my thought. No more cycling to try and get a stinking Bums Rush. No more getting stuck with 3 or 4 Bums Rush in your hand when you need to bash some vamp. Excellent... With M tap and Taste you can even get a very good blood machine going. Steve Bucy -- "The only human commander to survive combat with the Minbari fleet is behind me. You are in front of me. If you value your lives be somewhere else!" - Delenn

In article <_vhH5.7532$mC.5...@monger.newsread.com>, Sorrow <cbo...@apdi.net> wrote: >> >>Chiroptean Marauder: >> Superior Body Arsenal will not fail to see use, I suspect... 2 agg is >> much more than just "1 better than 1 agg." > >I don't expect that it will. But since blood management is difficult for >the Tzimisce, I would see this being used alot more. Especially due to >the Maneuver. If the opposing minion doesn't go to range, it can be >used for agg, cycling it out whereas BA would be a waste of blood >at long range. The combination of cheap Ag damage and a free manuever make this easily the best ag damage card in the game, IMHO. The protean ones are better if the minion involved only has inferior protean.

On Wed, 18 Oct 2000, Sorrow wrote: > > Playable, yes, but I *like* Blanket of Night. Obtenebration isn't > > supposed to be as powerful as Obfuscate. If it was, it'd be Obfuscate. > > It doesn't have to be as powerful. But it definitely shouldn't be > significantly weaker. Yes it should, in this case. Obfuscate is *the* first rate stealth discipline. All other disciplines that provide stealth-related powers (Serpentis, Protean, Chimeristry, Obtenebration, Celerity) do so in a second-rate manner. Earth Control is not *supposed* to be as good as Lost in Crowds. Compared to even Earth Control, Alacrity just plain sucks. I still can (and do) put Alacrity to good use in Toreador decks (for instance) where I have access to neither Obfuscate, nor Protean. Even a 3rd-rate stealth power can be useful in a deck that lacks even second-rate stealth disciplines. Those disciplines that do not do stealth as well as Obfuscate make up for it by doing other things better. This certainly applies to Obtenebrate, which has much better combat capabilities. Since Obtenebrate on the Lasombra comes combined with Dominate, any stealth powers it provides can be very dangerous to your prey. No, they will never be quite the stealth-bleeders that the Malkavians are, but they ought to be able to put up a better combat defence when attacked. -- John Whelan

> > Playable, yes, but I *like* Blanket of Night. Obtenebration isn't > > supposed to be as powerful as Obfuscate. If it was, it'd be Obfuscate. > > It doesn't have to be as powerful. But it definitely shouldn't be > significantly > weaker. No matter how you cut it, sacrificing a minion action (a commodity > that is generally at a premium) just for the *possibility* that the current > action > would go unblocked is too steep a cost. So what if this minion can't block, > that minion can. You are going to waste another of your minion actions to > make it so that one can't, to? Again, so what if the minion playing BoN > is a weenie. You can Computer Hack with it, playing OBT stealth, and > flush out their defenses just as well. But Obfuscate doesn't bring to the table the fear factor of a one card instant torpor or a two card Dodge additional strike; Torpor that Obtenebration has. Obfuscate is not better than Obtenebration. Just different. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp [ quoted text not captured ]

On Fri, 20 Oct 2000 X_Ze...@email.msn.com wrote: > But Obfuscate doesn't bring to the table the fear factor of a one card > instant torpor or a two card Dodge additional strike; Torpor that > Obtenebration has. Obfuscate is not better than Obtenebration. Just > different. The point is, though, that Obfuscate is better than Obtenebration, at stealth, and should be so. Hence Blanket of Night being "worse" than Elder Impersonation. [ quoted text not captured ]

> The point is, though, that Obfuscate is better than Obtenebration, at > stealth, and should be so. Hence Blanket of Night being "worse" than > Elder Impersonation. I believe you are preaching to the choir on this one. Roger Willco. 10-4. That's an affirmitive. [ quoted text not captured ]

On the other hand... no, I just can't make Magic card title jokes any more. <X_Ze...@email.msn.com> wrote in message news:8st2b1$p2h$1...@nnrp1.deja.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

In article <8t7dar$103$1...@uranium.btinternet.com>, "Tim Fletcher" <dun...@yahoo.com> wrote: > On the other hand... no, I just can't make Magic card title jokes any more. HUH? [ quoted text not captured ]