LSJ: Dual Form Question

Relevant card text: PRO: This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, the other is burned. Vampire A plays advanced Dual Form to create Vampire B. Vampire A then goes to torpor. Vampire B burns. Does Vampire A then burn, since vampire B has left the ready region?

Also, is it legal for a 1 cap vampire to use Dual Form? If so, does it create a 1 cap vampire, since capacity (as far as I can tell) can't drop below 1? Thank you! Ira, who is probably asking a redundant question, but couldn't find it answered elsewhere.

Emmit Svenson wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. (Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

ira...@gmail.com wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Yes. A vampire's capacity cannot be reduced to below 1. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:JBEGd.32546$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Emmit Svenson wrote: > > > Relevant card text: > > > > PRO: This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put > > this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire > > with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting > > vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire > > to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, > > the other is burned. > > > > Vampire A plays advanced Dual Form to create Vampire B. Vampire A then > > goes to torpor. Vampire B burns. Does Vampire A then burn, since > > vampire B has left the ready region? > > No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. > (Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). I'm not clear why it stops after burning one of the pair. The card text doesn't seem to limit it to only triggering once per pair. It doesn't seem likely that what's stopping it is the actual Dual Form card having been burned either, since if that were the case, if the Dual Form copy were burned from play, its "burn my partner" effect would never go off. If it should only trigger once for a pair, is it limited to triggering once per "leaving the ready region" event? Or once per pair during a game? (The burned-by-Dual-Form vampire might be able to save himself with Reform Body, if the unreadying of its partner happened during another Methuselah's action?) Josh what a weird effect this is!

> > No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. > > (Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). > > I'm not clear why it stops after burning one of the pair. LSJ is simply not assuming that all Dual Forms in play are (for example) miniKarshes. Go read his ruling earlier, it's clear. Karsh plays Dual Form to create Karsh' Karsh' plays Dual Form to create Karsh'' If Karsh leaves the ready region, Karsh' burns, which burns Karsh'' If Karsh' leaves the ready region, Karsh and Karsh'' both burns If Karsh'' leaves the ready region, Karsh' burns, which burns Karsh . . . On the other hand: Karsh plays Dual Form to create Karsh' Jalan-Aajav plays Dual Form to create Jalan-Aajav' If Karsh leaves the ready region, Karsh' is burned, but nothing in particular happens to either Jalan-Aajav.

Dual Confusion John0 creates John1 via Dual Form. John0 goes to torpor, John1 is burned because John0 left the ready region. Is John0 now burned because John1 left the ready region by being burned? If yes, could I trigger a soul gem before the 2nd burning? If yes, would the 2nd minion leaving the ready region via Reality, Descend into darkness, that is leaving play be protected from being burned? ( I don't see how he can be recalled back to be burned). If no, why is the John0 not burned because John1 left the ready region? Thanks, David Wilson

[ quoted text not captured ] No. See previous answer to this same question. The Dual Form card noticed that John0 went to torpor and burned John1 as a result. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ, I still do not understand, if John1 went to torpor, John0 would be burned. Why does the card stop firing off? that is why wouldn't John1 now burn? David Wilson www.vtes.org

David Wilson, Mask of a Thousand Names wrote: > LSJ, > > I still do not understand, if John1 went to torpor, John0 would be > burned. Why does the card stop firing off? that is why wouldn't John1 > now burn? Because that's it for the pair. John1's going to torpor axes John0. That's it for the pair. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/e3080fed836368b7 You'd have to find another effect to throw at John1. The John1-John0 effect is done. [ quoted text not captured ]

<< Because that's it for the pair. John1's going to torpor axes John0. That's it for the pair. http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg... You'd have to find another effect to throw at John1. The John1-John0 effect is done. >> So... John0 uses Dual Form to create John1. #1. John0 goes to torpor, John1 then burns. Your previous response indicates that John0 would remain in torpor (i.e. *not* burn), correct? #2. John0 goes to torpor, John1 would burn but instead plays Reform Body to go to torpor. What happens to John0? Does the go-to-torpor of John1 due to Reform Body count as part of the same effect or is it a separate trigger? #3. If the answer to #2 is that John0 does not burn due to the go-to-torpor effect of Reform Body, then what happens if both of the vampires are rescued (so John0 and John1 are now ready again), and one of them is sent to torpor (again). Does the trigger effect happen again? Or does it only function once *ever*?

"John0 uses Dual Form to create John1. #1. John0 goes to torpor, John1 then burns. Your previous response indicates that John0 would remain in torpor (i.e. *not* burn), correct?" correct "#2. John0 goes to torpor, John1 would burn but instead plays Reform Body to go to torpor. What happens to John0? Does the go-to-torpor of John1 due to Reform Body count as part of the same effect or is it a separate trigger?" I am not sure if Reform Body can be played in this case. let's wait for LSJ to judge on this. I would judge that Reform Body cannot be played in this case, because: The burning of john1 is the result of the dual form effect that triggers after the action (and combat if any), leading to john0 going to torpor, has ended. So, the burning of john1 is an effect not part of an action that can be reacted. John0 goes to torpor during an action, the burning of john1 is not the result of an action, so it cannot be reacted. That simple! Let's see if LSJ agrees with me. "#3. If the answer to #2 is that John0 does not burn due to the go-to-torpor effect of Reform Body, then what happens if both of the vampires are rescued (so John0 and John1 are now ready again), and one of them is sent to torpor (again). Does the trigger effect happen again? Or does it only function once *ever*?" the trigger effect is active again. it is not only meant to happen once. but what i am curious to know is: (i've also asked in another thread, but it seems that LSJ hasn't noticed it yet among those numerous posts) if the Dual Form is sent into torpor, then the original vampire is burnt. after this, if Dual Form gets rescued and the original vampire possessed back in the game. 1. does the possessed vampire now have his original capacity and not the reduced one ? (i would say yes) 2. is the dual form-original vampire link re-established and active again or do the burning of the vampire combined with his possession back into the game break this link ? George

geor...@for.auth.gr wrote: > but what i am curious to know is: (i've also asked in another thread, > but > it seems that LSJ hasn't noticed it yet among those numerous posts) > > if the Dual Form is sent into torpor, then the original vampire is > burnt. > after this, if Dual Form gets rescued and the original vampire > possessed back in the game. > > 1. does the possessed vampire now have his original capacity and not > the reduced one ? (i would say yes) Yes; vampires that pass through the ash heap do not have memory of events like playing Dual Form, having gone Anarch, having opted to become a Camarilla Setite due to Invitation Accepted, etc. Original capacity. > 2. is the dual form-original vampire link re-established and active > again > or do the burning of the vampire combined with his possession back > into the game break this link ? The burning of the vampire breaks the link; any subsequent effect that would bring that vampire back into play will not cause the vampire to suddenly re-gain the link. > George -John Flournoy

> "#2. John0 goes to torpor, John1 would burn but instead plays Reform > Body to go to torpor. What happens to John0? Does the go-to-torpor of > John1 due to Reform Body count as part of the same effect or is it a > separate trigger?" > > > I am not sure if Reform Body can be played in this case. > let's wait for LSJ to judge on this. I would judge that Reform > Body cannot be played in this case, because: > If John0 goes leaves the ready region during an action performed by somebody else, John1 can play reaction cards. I see no reason why he couldn't play Reform Body. Sadly, Crimson Fury is still useless.

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > John0 uses Dual Form to create John1. > > #1. John0 goes to torpor, John1 then burns. Your previous response > indicates that John0 would remain in torpor (i.e. *not* burn), correct? Yes, it does. > #2. John0 goes to torpor, John1 would burn but instead plays Reform > Body to go to torpor. What happens to John0? Does the go-to-torpor of > John1 due to Reform Body count as part of the same effect or is it a > separate trigger? Is "go to torpor" the same effect as "burn"? No. Reform Body is a new effect. It sends John1 to torpor. That sends John0 to the ash heap. [ quoted text not captured ]

reform body could only be played if the vampire went to torpor during an action.

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:s%TGd.17607$S11....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > David Wilson, Mask of a Thousand Names wrote: > > > LSJ, > > > > I still do not understand, if John1 went to torpor, John0 would be > > burned. Why does the card stop firing off? that is why wouldn't John1 > > now burn? > > Because that's it for the pair. > John1's going to torpor axes John0. That's it for the pair. > > http://groups-beta.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/e3080fed836368b7 > > You'd have to find another effect to throw at John1. > The John1-John0 effect is done. LSJ 4-Jun-2004: "Brevity is the usual choice when covering old ground. Exposition is the usual choice when covering new ground." This seems like new ground to me. Wouldn't a little exposition be appropriate? Josh ex posed

So, what about my 2 questions ? i would like an official answer from you LSJ: 1. "#2. John0 goes to torpor, John1 would burn but instead plays Reform Body to go to torpor. What happens to John0? Does the go-to-torpor of John1 due to Reform Body count as part of the same effect or is it a separate trigger?" Can Reform Body be played in this case. I believe no, because: The burning of john1 is the result of the dual form effect that triggers after the action (and combat if any), leading to john0 going to torpor, has ended. So, the burning of john1 is an effect not the part of an action that can be reacted. John0 goes to torpor during an action, the burning of john1 is not the result of an action, so it cannot be reacted. That simple! LSJ, do you agree ? 2nd. if the Dual Form is sent into torpor, then the original vampire is burnt. after this, if Dual Form gets rescued and the original vampire possessed back in the game. is the dual form-original vampire link re-established and active again ? or do the burning of the vampire combined with his possession back into the game break this link ? George

reform body could only be played if the vampire went to torpor during an action "...if the vampire was burnt during an action" is what you mean, i suppose. yes, i have already claimed this point of view above and i am currently waiting for LSJ to confirm. The point that Reform Body cannot be played at all, as if one of the cloned vampires goes to torpor, Dual Form kicks in and burns the other, possibly not as part of the action but as an effect that is not an action that can be reacted with Reform Body. Anyway, lets wait and see. Of course there is always the mattter of exploiting Dual Form with possession if the dual Form link is indeed broken after possessing back the burned vampire. George

my opinion is that when john0 has left the ready region, dual form kicks in and burns john1. this is an effect, caused by dual form, an effect that is not part of any action and thus cannot be reacted. Because, if john0 goes to torpor in a combat, exactly when he goes to torpor combat ends and the action ends at the same time. So, it might also be that dual form kicks in not during the action, but after the action has ended. If john0 is sent into torpor (or otherwise leaves the ready region) due to an action, e.g. sleep of reason, then he is sent to torpor after the action has resolved, john0's controller does not react to the action that sends john0 to torpor and thus the action ends with john0 going to torpor. So, When dual form kicks in and burns john1, there is no action to be reacted and no reactions can be played. So, to sum up my thoughts: If you get one of your minions PTOed, you can play Reform body, reacting to the action that burns your minion and thus you escape the asheap and just go to torpor. BUT when an effect, that is part of an action, sends john0 to torpor, the action ends with john0 going to torpor (john0's controller passes his opportunity to play reaction cards before john0 goes to torpor, so in my opinion when john0 leaves the ready region the action ends and then dual form kicks in) This is my interpretation of the rules, if LSJ thinks otherwise, then i will humbly accept his ruling. George

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:JBEGd.32546$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Emmit Svenson wrote: > >> Relevant card text: >> >> PRO: This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put >> this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire >> with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting >> vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire >> to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, >> the other is burned. >> >> Vampire A plays advanced Dual Form to create Vampire B. Vampire A then >> goes to torpor. Vampire B burns. Does Vampire A then burn, since >> vampire B has left the ready region? > > No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. > (Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). > If A leaves the ready region, B burns. If B burns would that effect trigger the burning of A during the same course of events that lead to A leaving the ready region, since B has now left the ready region also. It would seem like both vampire would end up suffering the ill effects due to the card text involved. Raille

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:JBEGd.32546$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Emmit Svenson wrote: > >> Relevant card text: >> >> PRO: This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put >> this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire >> with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting >> vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire >> to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, >> the other is burned. >> >> Vampire A plays advanced Dual Form to create Vampire B. Vampire A then >> goes to torpor. Vampire B burns. Does Vampire A then burn, since >> vampire B has left the ready region? > > No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. > (Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). > [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:JBEGd.32546$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Emmit Svenson wrote: > >> Relevant card text: >> >> PRO: This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put >> this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire >> with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting >> vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire >> to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, >> the other is burned. >> >> Vampire A plays advanced Dual Form to create Vampire B. Vampire A then >> goes to torpor. Vampire B burns. Does Vampire A then burn, since >> vampire B has left the ready region? > > No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. > (Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). > [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:JBEGd.32546$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Emmit Svenson wrote: > >> Relevant card text: >> >> PRO: This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put >> this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire >> with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting >> vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire >> to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, >> the other is burned. >> >> Vampire A plays advanced Dual Form to create Vampire B. Vampire A then >> goes to torpor. Vampire B burns. Does Vampire A then burn, since >> vampire B has left the ready region? > > No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. > (Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). > [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:JBEGd.32546$w62....@bgtnsc05-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Emmit Svenson wrote: > >> Relevant card text: >> >> PRO: This acting vampire's capacity is reduced by 1. Put >> this card in play, tapped. It becomes a non-unique vampire >> with the same clan, capacity and Disciplines as the acting >> vampire. You may move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire >> to this vampire. If either minion leaves the ready region, >> the other is burned. >> >> Vampire A plays advanced Dual Form to create Vampire B. Vampire A then >> goes to torpor. Vampire B burns. Does Vampire A then burn, since >> vampire B has left the ready region? > > No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. > (Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). > [ quoted text not captured ]

On 18 Jan 2005 01:12:33 -0800, geo...@for.auth.gr scrawled: >my opinion is that when john0 has left the ready region, dual form >kicks in >and burns john1. this is an effect, caused by dual form, an effect that >is not >part of any action and thus cannot be reacted. > >Because, if john0 goes to torpor in a combat, exactly when he goes to >torpor >combat ends and the action ends at the same time. So, it might also be >that >dual form kicks in not during the action, but after the action has >ended. so when does the acting minion play Freak Drive? It's an action modifier, which you play after the combat in which you torpor'd john0. so if you can play an action modifier (which, by definition, requires there to be an action going on), you can surely play a reaction card, like Reform Body. Or, how about, like you'd see slightly more often, Fast Reaction? I'm pretty sure that when john0 goes to torpor, the combat ends. or rather, the combat 'is ending', giving you a chance to play, say, Decapitate. then, once the combat is over, you'd move onto 'action is ending' where you play action mods and reaction cards and stuff. so, somewhere after john0 goes to torpor, there is plenty of action left going on to play Reform Body with john1, if you so desire. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

geo...@for.auth.gr wrote: > my opinion is that when john0 has left the ready region, dual form > kicks in > and burns john1. this is an effect, caused by dual form, an effect that > is not > part of any action and thus cannot be reacted. It's part of whatever action it is part of. > Because, if john0 goes to torpor in a combat, exactly when he goes to > torpor > combat ends and the action ends at the same time. So, it might also be > that > dual form kicks in not during the action, but after the action has > ended. No. It's part of whatever action (and combat) that torpored John0. Your ruling would result in Reform Body being unplayable. [ quoted text not captured ]

Raille wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >>No. If one leaves, the other is burned, and that's it for the pair. >>(Other pairs may chain off the second, as appropriate). > > If A leaves the ready region, B burns. > > If B burns would that effect trigger the burning of A during the same course > of events that lead to A > leaving the ready region, since B has now left the ready region also. No, as previously stated and restated. If A is unreadied, B is burned and that ends the A-B pair handling. If it had meant to burn both, it would have said to burn both. [ quoted text not captured ]

Joshua Duffin wrote: > This seems like new ground to me. Wouldn't a little exposition be > appropriate? Exposition: As stated. John0 getting unreadied causes John1 to burn and that's it for the pair. [ quoted text not captured ]

No. It's part of whatever action (and combat) that torpored John0. Your ruling would result in Reform Body being unplayable Well, i only meant this to happen in dual form's effect. I know that when combat ends is not the end of the action and i also know that when the action resolves is not the end of the action. I just thought that maybe Dual Form kicks in after the end of the action. Your ruling is respected as always and i never said that Dual Form OUGHT to take effect after the action, i said that maybe DF's effect takes place after the action. Anyway, thanks George

"so when does the acting minion play Freak Drive? It's an action modifier, which you play after the combat in which you torpor'd john0. so if you can play an action modifier (which, by definition, requires there to be an action going on), you can surely play a reaction card, like Reform Body. Or, how about, like you'd see slightly more often, Fast Reaction?" Combat ends is not neccessarily the end of the action, Resolution of the action is not neccessarily the end of the action. What i meant is that MAYBE Dual Form kicks in after the end of the action (john0 going to torpor is part of the action, so dual form could take effect after the action and burn john1 after the action, i don't see what's the problem with it. BUT because LSJ has now said that Dual Form kicks in during the action, i take it as granted. If LSJ said that dual form takes effect after the action, during which john0 went to torpor, would be equaly correct, imho. "I'm pretty sure that when john0 goes to torpor, the combat ends. or rather, the combat 'is ending', giving you a chance to play, say, Decapitate. then, once the combat is over, you'd move onto 'action is ending' where you play action mods and reaction cards and stuff." I never meant to say otherwise, i just didn't manage to express my thoughts successfuly in what you are quoting. "so, somewhere after john0 goes to torpor, there is plenty of action left going on to play Reform Body with john1, if you so desire." i see your point, but can you please tell me which rule prevents the action from ending after john0 goes to torpor and JUST before Dual Form takes effect ? i believe none and i am ONLY talking about this special case, where john1 burns from the effect of Dual Form. Of course now, LSJ has ruled on this, said that the dual form kicks in before the action ends and so you can play reform body. BUT still i am pretty sure, that you can't play reform body with john1 if he is being burnt due to john0 going to torpor, because another meth selected him as a target of a triggering baltimore purge (there is no action to react) OR from a burning john0 by a Recalled to the founder. George

> I just thought that maybe Dual Form kicks in after the end of > the action. > There are few card effects that truly happen between actions. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:Bx6Hd.20548$S11....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... > Joshua Duffin wrote: > > This seems like new ground to me. Wouldn't a little exposition be > > appropriate? > > Exposition: As stated. John0 getting unreadied causes John1 to > burn and that's it for the pair. My apologies, Your Worship, but that is not exposition of the logic and reasoning behind the rulings. :-) I know that you have priorities for your time, and making it easier for everyone else to understand the game's rules and rulings the way you do isn't on top of them. But it seems like a useful goal for someone (not necessarily you) on the Rules Team to have. And I now think I understand that this ruling is the way it is because Dual Form uses "the other" instead of "both". But it would have been more obvious if you'd explained that initially. Josh went in seeking clarity

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:Iw6Hd.20546$S11....@bgtnsc04-news.ops.worldnet.att.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Thanks and sorry to all for the dublicate posts. I don't have any clue how that happened. Raille

If a vamp plays Dual Form at superior, he pays 2 blood first, and then drops capacity, right? Thank you, Ira

[ quoted text not captured ] Per rulebook: "If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place." So yes, you pay first and then the effect of the card (including the capacity drop) happens. Which is partly why if when you reach this stage, you no longer can pay for the action, it fizzles - it checks first to see if you can pay the blood, THEN the effect occurs. Otherwise, actions you couldn't pay for would resolve as normal and then you'd empty. -John Flournoy

[ quoted text not captured ] Ok, so if one of the vampires goes to torpor and you don't want any of the two to burn, you'll need *two* Reform Bodies, correct? John0 creates John1 with Dual Form. John0 goes to torpor. John1 should then burn but instead plays Reform Body to go to torpor instead. This then causes John0 to burn but he plays Reform Body to remain in torpor. End of this sequence. Correct?

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > Ok, so if one of the vampires goes to torpor and you don't want any of > the two to burn, you'll need *two* Reform Bodies, correct? > > John0 creates John1 with Dual Form. > > John0 goes to torpor. John1 should then burn but instead plays Reform > Body to go to torpor instead. This then causes John0 to burn but he > plays Reform Body to remain in torpor. End of this sequence. > > Correct? Sure. [ quoted text not captured ]

Why is this? Reform body states: 'Only usable by a vampire being burned. This vampire goes to torpor instead.' The 'instead' bit to me seems like the burning gets replaced by the going to torpor. It doesn't say: 'This vampire doesn't burn. Move it to the torpor region.' Seems counterintuitive to me. -Bram Vink

[ quoted text not captured ] Why is what? Your question lacks context, to the point of being unanswerable. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Darky wrote: > > Why is this? Reform body states: 'Only usable by a vampire being > > burned. This vampire goes to torpor instead.' > > The 'instead' bit to me seems like the burning gets replaced by the > > going to torpor. It doesn't say: 'This vampire doesn't burn. Move it to > > the torpor region.' > > Seems counterintuitive to me. > > Why is what? > Your question lacks context, to the point of being unanswerable. My apologies, Don't have much experience with beta groups. Why does this scenario: Vampire Bob and Vampire Mary are a happy dual-form couple. Bob goes to torpor Dual form triggers Mary burns Not trigger a re-dual-form-bit, (I understand why it doesn't per se.) While this one does: Bob goes to torpor Dual form triggers Mary would burn, but plays reform body so goes to torpor instead As, per above quoted text, Reform body to me doesn't look like generating a 'new' effect, just changing the effect of dual form that already exists. Thanks in advance, -Bram Vink

"Darky" <jja....@hccnet.nl> wrote in message news:1106238287.1...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > Why does this scenario: > > Vampire Bob and Vampire Mary are a happy dual-form couple. > > Bob goes to torpor > Dual form triggers > Mary burns > > Not trigger a re-dual-form-bit, (I understand why it doesn't per se.) > While this one does: > > Bob goes to torpor > Dual form triggers > Mary would burn, but plays reform body so goes to torpor instead > > As, per above quoted text, Reform body to me doesn't look like > generating a 'new' effect, just changing the effect of dual form that > already exists. OK. That was one that was overturned this morning, yeah. The Reform Body doesn't unready the already-unreadied vampire, so there is no re-dual-form-bit, contrary to earlier rulings this week. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu