V:TES terminology

I've been wondering this for while now and I suppose I'm not the only one. Though I understand the more basic Deck strats such as Bleed, Vote etc. I'm confused as to other possible deck themes. I got a list of them from www.vekn.nu and added comments. Someone please fill in the gaps and correct were nessecary. Bleed: Well duh. Deck based on bleeding. Lots of bleed cards. Often used together with Stealth. Bounce: Redirecting bleeds to your prey (or someone else) with cards like Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection. Almost all decks have some Bleed Bounce. Discipline: Deck based on a single discipline. Usually almost only weenies that have that Discipline, from many different clans. Module: A standard set of cards that can be added to any deck and is effective in itself. A Potence Module would include Torn Signpost and Immortal Grapple, just as an example. There's discipline modules or concept modules (vote, bleed etc) Prince: Deck built around the various Camarilla princes. Decks like this take advantage of the Six Traditions (or more likely the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th). Usually one clan only, but some clans lack a lot of princes. Commonly seen with Brujah, Ventrue and Nosferatu. Rush: Combat deck. The whole deck is built around wiping out your prey's minions or getting them into torpor. This type of deck is almost always pure weenies as you need a LOT of actions per round to get it working properly. This type of deck is a slow bleeder, as it is stuffed with cards that allow directed attacks. Ally: Deck built around allies. It's often clan-based as almost all good allies are clanbound. Small vampires and a lot of allies and ways to get them on the table. It usually also has a lot of non-discipline combat cards, since most allies can't use a discipline. Examples are a Giovanni wraith deck or a Tzimitze War Ghoul deck. Bloat: ....somone fill me in as I have no clue whatsoever... Clan: A deck built around a single clan. Most decks are one clan only, since it allows you to take advantage of the clan unique locations and other masters. Equipment: Often, but not always a combat deck. An equipment deck takes advantage of powerful equipment to get done what it wants to do. An example is a Celerity Gun deck, or a !Malkav Enchanted Marionette Bleeder. Ranged Combat: A deck based on fighting at long range. Not to confuse with a rush deck, as this deck does pack some bleed or other actions that are desirable to block. Once the action is blocked, long range strike cards are used to damage opponents, while keeping out of the fray yourself. Common disciplines to achieve this with are Celerity and Thaumaturgy. Stealth: Obviously this is a type of deck that you simply can't block. If it does something, it works, since you can't block it. A common application is the obvious stealth and bleed. These decks are loaded with cards that give stealth. Vote: A vote deck relies on political actions to kill its prey and gain pool. Typically a Vote deck has such obscene amounts of votes or vote cards in it, that it can establish a "vote lock", which means that it has more votes on the table, than the other four players combines. Attrition: Someone fill me in here. No idea what this is. Block Denial: A deck that is based on the same concept as Stealth. It simply denies blocking, but not with stealth, but in other ways. A good example are the various Strike: Combat Ends and the action continues cards, that usually make up the bulk of decks like these. Other cards are Day operation or Daring the Dawn. Most commonly seen in combination with Votes. Close Combat: The same as Ranged Combat, but this time it's built to fight close. Mostly used with Potence and Protean. Intercept: Also called a Wall Deck. The idea behind it is to Intercept every action your prey does and all those directed at you, no matter the amount of stealth. Intercept decks are almost always also combat decks. It's effectiveness is very dependant on the threat of blocking rather than the block actions itself. Usually seen with Tremere or Tzimitze since both those clans have Auspex and a good combat skill to back their blocking actions with. Preconstructed: Well, this is obviously a preconstructed deck as they are sold by White-Wolf. Retainer: Much like an ally deck, but this time it used reatiners to do what it wants. Vampires here are not as small as with an Ally deck since Retainers are often cheap or paid from the vampires blood. Most common example is a Animalism combat deck that uses reatiners for extra damage. Toolbox: I'm not sure, but I suppose this is a deck that can do a little bit of everything... If someone has specifics, please add them here. Weenie: Weenie is another word for "small vampire". A weenie deck uses vampires with capacities ranging from 1 to 4. It brings out a lot of minions and creates a situation where you simply can't block all his actions. The deck makes sure to make those actions the most devastating. The most common application is a weenie bleed deck, but combat is almost as common. Well, that's the whole list. Feel free to add and modify. Phoenix

> Bloat: ....somone fill me in as I have no clue whatsoever... Gain as much pool as possible so that you cannot be ousted (and you keep bringing out Vampires). Very often using Vote cards. Most likely Ventrue I believe.

Phoenix wrote: You should set your newsreader to wrap at 72 characters. > Bleed: Well duh. Deck based on bleeding. Lots of bleed cards. Often used together with Stealth. Or unblockable (Day Op, Horrific Countenance, etc) > Bounce: Redirecting bleeds to your prey (or someone else) with cards like Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection. Almost all decks have some Bleed Bounce. Decks without auspex or dominate don't. > Prince: Deck built around the various Camarilla princes. Decks like this take advantage of the Six Traditions (or more likely the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th). Usually one clan only, but some clans lack a lot of princes. Commonly seen with Brujah, Ventrue and Nosferatu. Prince decks also take advantage of the Prince/Justicar only votes -- since, hey, if you're playing Princes, you should already be swimming in votes. > Bloat: ....somone fill me in as I have no clue whatsoever... A deck that's designed to gain pool. Lots of minion taps, blood dolls, autarkis persecution, etc. Idea is, if you bloat, you can bring out lots of vampires, and win through sheer mass. > Attrition: Someone fill me in here. No idea what this is. My guess is a deck that packs lots of actions that cause everyone to lose pool or blood (Antediluvian Awakening, Anarch Revolt, Smiling Jack, Final Nights). Often combined with a bloat deck. --Colin McGuigan

Phoenix wrote: > I've been wondering this for while now and I suppose I'm not the only one. > > Though I understand the more basic Deck strats such as Bleed, Vote etc. > I'm confused as to other possible deck themes. I got a list of them from > www.vekn.nu <http://www.vekn.nu> and added comments. Someone please fill > in the gaps and correct were nessecary. > <SNIP> > *Bloat:* ....somone fill me in as I have no clue whatsoever... Poolgain, preferably insanely so. > *Ranged Combat*: A deck based on fighting at long range. Not to confuse > with a rush deck, as this deck does pack some bleed or other actions > that are desirable to block. Once the action is blocked, long range > strike cards are used to damage opponents, while keeping out of the fray > yourself. Common disciplines to achieve this with are Celerity and > Thaumaturgy. A weenie-gun-deck would probably be both Rush and Ranged Combat. Rush- decks simply have a lot of help to actively pick a fight. The type is probably named after the card Bum's Rush. > *Attrition:* Someone fill me in here. No idea what this is. Anarch Revolt, First Tradition etc. > *Block Denial:* A deck that is based on the same concept as Stealth. It > simply denies blocking, but not with stealth, but in other ways. A good > example are the various Strike: Combat Ends and the action continues > cards, that usually make up the bulk of decks like these. Other cards > are Day operation or Daring the Dawn. Most commonly seen in combination > with Votes. Also Call of the Hungry Dead, Toreador Grand Ball and other effects that simply causes a blockattempt to automatically fail. > *Toolbox:* I'm not sure, but I suppose this is a deck that can do a > little bit of everything... If someone has specifics, please add them here. Yup, a little bit of this and a little bit of that. Sten During

"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> writes: > Though I understand the more basic Deck strats such as Bleed, Vote etc. > I'm confused as to other possible deck themes. > Rush: Combat deck. The whole deck is built around wiping out your prey's = > minions or getting them into torpor. This type of deck is almost always = > pure weenies as you need a LOT of actions per round to get it working = > properly. It can also use bigger vamps that somehow get multiple actions per turn. Freak Drive, True Brujah etc. > Bloat: ....somone fill me in as I have no clue whatsoever... Gain pool. A lot. Defense: You bleed me for 5? I gain 7 pool. Nyah, nyah, nyah! Offense: I buy a zillion vampires with my obscene amounts of pool. Traditional examples: - Renewed Vigor + Minion Tap - super hunting (Hesha Ruhadze + Aaron's Feeding Razor + Inbase Disco + Hospital Food + ...) with Blood Dolls - super hunting II: weenie Sabbat + Hungry Coyote + Tribute to the Master - influence a big vamp + Minion Tap + Golconda (or Khobar Towers) - Consanguineous Boon (with lots of Embraces for added goodness) - etc. > Ranged Combat: A deck based on fighting at long range. Not to confuse = > with a rush deck Not true. You can create a perfectly functional rush deck that fights at long range. Assamites rush decks fighting at long range are a well known archetype. Rush a minion, celerity maneuver, Blood Sweat, Blur, Blood Sweat, Taste of Death. Sizzle, pop, hiss - mmm, nice and crispy! :-) A rush deck is a strategy: I win the game by killing minions. Long range / close range is a tactic: when in combat, I do this. > Attrition: Someone fill me in here. No idea what this is. Me neither. I tried googling this group, came up with several different definitions of attrition. > Toolbox: I'm not sure, but I suppose this is a deck that can do a little > bit of everything... If someone has specifics, please add them here. Your definition is a good one. If a deck does one thing over and over again, it is a focused deck. If a deck does one thing, then another thing, then a third thing, then something completely different, it's a toolbox. The main advanteges of toolbox are unpredictability and adaptability. Your opponents will have no idea what to expect. You also can bluff your heart out with credibility. The disadvantage is a lack of focus. After that big bleed, you no longer have bleed enhancers in your hand. After a combat, you no longer have enough combat cards for a second one. -- hg@ | Anybody who still believes in the media iki | must have been in a coma for the past 30 years. .fi | -Robert Anton Wilson

Well, not on purpose but I've been building decks specialized on stealing vamps from other players, and using them against my prey, destroying/torporizing them (prior to giving them back), or keeping them for good. Some examples: Derange + Malk Dementia Daemonic Possession (+Antedeluvian Awakening?) temption / Form of Corruption (obvious) Spirit Marionette+Day Op baltimore Purge + Grave Robbing Just don't know if this would fit in any of the stated categories or would be a brand new one :) Daniel "Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> wrote in message news:<bdfq88$4ob$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>... [ quoted text not captured ] > --

Something I don't know... Whats a Euro-Brujah or Euro-Princes deck? Euro-Princes I'm guessing is obvious, but I don't know about Euro-Brujah. ------------------------- Cambridge by Night. http://www.geocities.com/eryx_uk/Cambridge_by_night.html

Colin Goodman wrote: > Something I don't know... Whats a Euro-Brujah or Euro-Princes deck? > > Euro-Princes I'm guessing is obvious, but I don't know about Euro-Brujah. Oh! Oh! I know! Brujah who tend to have dom/DOM instead of (or in addition to) pre/PRE. I think the name comes from the two big examples being Donal O'Connor (Prince of Dublin) and Constanza Vinti (Prince of Rome). But a Eurobrujah deck would have good bleed (from the dom/DOM), good combat (because they're still Brujah with pot/POT and cel/CEL), and access to the Prince cards and votes. --Colin McGuigan

[ quoted text not captured ] Euro-Brujah and euro-prince are the same bit I believe... It's the 2 big 8 cap brujah princes with DOM and not pre... Good with Theo bell...So they can deflect bleeds, 2nd tradition block and govern bleed... If you block them, they smack you down with POT CEL combat... If they intercept, they smack you down... Just a powerhouse of hurt... -- Direct access to this group with http://web2news.com http://web2news.com/?rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Some more for the list... Withdraw deck... Attempt to leave the game with a withdraw and a single VP... Not the best deck but I've heard of it... Stealing minion/vampires deck... Generally with Mind Rape, derangement or Serpentis/Corruption... Khobar towers are generally used... Discard deck(your prey's) Concept, your prey with no library is a good thing... HoS just loves the Brinkmanship... The best tactic I've seen is calling votes that the table wants to pass... Year of fortune, rumers, Con Boon, and Autarkis Persecution... Brides it... When one passes, crytic rider it, and then call brinkmanship... A few snipe hunts just cause if your prey is a weenie bleed/rusher... That's not good... You get decent bloat, everybody is healthy so they don't get ousted... Discard deck(your own)... My discard pile is my library... Your library is very tool boxy(Deflections, bleed, combat, etc...), and full of burn option cards, and you just recall all the card you need for that situation back to your deck or hand. Can only be really done with necromancy + Pochtli... Eat World deck... A deck designed to utterly eat every vampire around it... Commonly with tariq... Or other archons, or through the archon votes... Or Gangrel anti, with Gangrel Conspiracy... Not a fun deck to be around... =/ And my fav... Stealing your library deck... Agaitas is in play... then you play alot of cards, and start playing with your prey's library... Great with tremere anti, or other method of ways of getting disciplines... Alot of hard work, but funny to see... > Bleed: Well duh. Deck based on bleeding. Lots of bleed > cards. Often used = > together with Stealth. > Bounce: Redirecting bleeds to your prey (or someone else) > with cards = > like Deflection and Telepathic Misdirection. Almost all > decks have some = > Bleed Bounce. > Discipline: Deck based on a single discipline. Usually almost only = > weenies that have that Discipline, from many different clans. > Module: A standard set of cards that can be added to any > deck and is = > effective in itself. A Potence Module would include Torn > Signpost and = > Immortal Grapple, just as an example. There's discipline modules or = > concept modules (vote, bleed etc) > Prince: Deck built around the various Camarilla princes. > Decks like this = > take advantage of the Six Traditions (or more likely the > 2nd, 3rd, 4th = > and 5th). Usually one clan only, but some clans lack a lot > of princes. = > Commonly seen with Brujah, Ventrue and Nosferatu. > Rush: Combat deck. The whole deck is built around wiping > out your prey's = > minions or getting them into torpor. This type of deck is > almost always = > pure weenies as you need a LOT of actions per round to get > it working = > properly. This type of deck is a slow bleeder, as it is > stuffed with = > cards that allow directed attacks. > Ally: Deck built around allies. It's often clan-based as > almost all good = > allies are clanbound. Small vampires and a lot of allies > and ways to get = > them on the table. It usually also has a lot of > non-discipline combat = > cards, since most allies can't use a discipline. Examples > are a Giovanni = > wraith deck or a Tzimitze War Ghoul deck. > Bloat: ....somone fill me in as I have no clue whatsoever... > Clan: A deck built around a single clan. Most decks are > one clan only, = > since it allows you to take advantage of the clan unique > locations and = > other masters.=20 > Equipment: Often, but not always a combat deck. An > equipment deck takes = > advantage of powerful equipment to get done what it wants to do. An = > example is a Celerity Gun deck, or a !Malkav Enchanted Marionette = > Bleeder. > Ranged Combat: A deck based on fighting at long range. Not > to confuse = > with a rush deck, as this deck does pack some bleed or > other actions = > that are desirable to block. Once the action is blocked, long range = > strike cards are used to damage opponents, while keeping > out of the fray = > yourself. Common disciplines to achieve this with are Celerity and = > Thaumaturgy. > Stealth: Obviously this is a type of deck that you simply > can't block. = > If it does something, it works, since you can't block it. A common = > application is the obvious stealth and bleed. These decks > are loaded = > with cards that give stealth. > Vote: A vote deck relies on political actions to kill its > prey and gain = > pool. Typically a Vote deck has such obscene amounts of > votes or vote = > cards in it, that it can establish a "vote lock", which > means that it = > has more votes on the table, than the other four players combines.=20 > Attrition: Someone fill me in here. No idea what this is. > Block Denial: A deck that is based on the same concept as > Stealth. It = > simply denies blocking, but not with stealth, but in other > ways. A good = > example are the various Strike: Combat Ends and the action > continues = > cards, that usually make up the bulk of decks like these. > Other cards = > are Day operation or Daring the Dawn. Most commonly seen > in combination = > with Votes. > Close Combat: The same as Ranged Combat, but this time > it's built to = > fight close. Mostly used with Potence and Protean. > Intercept: Also called a Wall Deck. The idea behind it is > to Intercept = > every action your prey does and all those directed at you, > no matter the = > amount of stealth. Intercept decks are almost always also > combat decks. = > It's effectiveness is very dependant on the threat of > blocking rather = > than the block actions itself. Usually seen with Tremere > or Tzimitze = > since both those clans have Auspex and a good combat skill > to back their = > blocking actions with. > Preconstructed: Well, this is obviously a preconstructed > deck as they = > are sold by White-Wolf. > Retainer: Much like an ally deck, but this time it used > reatiners to do = > what it wants. Vampires here are not as small as with an > Ally deck since = > Retainers are often cheap or paid from the vampires blood. > Most common = > example is a Animalism combat deck that uses reatiners for > extra damage. > Toolbox: I'm not sure, but I suppose this is a deck that > can do a little = > bit of everything... If someone has specifics, please add them here. > Weenie: Weenie is another word for "small vampire". A > weenie deck uses = > vampires with capacities ranging from 1 to 4. It brings > out a lot of = > minions and creates a situation where you simply can't > block all his = > actions. The deck makes sure to make those actions the > most devastating. = > The most common application is a weenie bleed deck, but > combat is almost = > as common. [ quoted text not captured ]

> Attrition: Someone fill me in here. No idea what this is. It could also be a Library Depletion deck (using Harbinger of Skulls). I would suggest a definition along the lines of "removing assets from your target", be it library cards (Slaughter House, Raptor discard), pool (Anarch Revolt), blood (Free State Rant), minion (Disarm/Decapitate, Banishement/Might of the Camarilla)... Frederic.

"Frederic Genest" <gen...@iname.com> wrote in message news:703899b7.03062...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I usually thought of it as relating to the phrase "war of attrition", i.e. a slow grinding down of all players over time. DZ Atom Weaver

> Well, that's the whole list. Feel free to add and modify. There's one major one of recent debate you forgot: Wall Deck: Designed to oust its first prey, and then defend until it is the last of two decks standing, ousting the final opponent for the game win. Poorly designed wall decks tend to put up an able defense, without sufficient resources to oust prey (especially the first prey). DZ AW

[ quoted text not captured ] It refers to the Euro-Princes as you mentioned but you forgot Joe-90, the Puppet Prince (he's called Volker really) who is a 5-Cap Prince (of Frankfurt) with CEL pot and thus extremely good value and a nice fit with Constanza and Donal (you don't really need dom on all your vamps for this lot as you are likely doing a lot of combat -and voting/traditions- as well as bleeding/deflecting). I find Antoinette du Champs rather a good Prince (Catiff 1cap cel pre -burn an extra blood when playing strike or action that requires cel) to have in there for the Princely Votes and Traditions too ;-D

> Discard deck(your prey's) Concept, your prey with no library is a good > thing... HoS just loves the Brinkmanship... The best tactic I've seen Also called Milling I believe

> There's one major one of recent debate you forgot: > > Wall Deck: Designed to oust its first prey, and then defend until it is the > last of two decks standing, ousting the final opponent for the game win. > Poorly designed wall decks tend to put up an able defense, without > sufficient resources to oust prey (especially the first prey). > I believe I mentioned that an Intercept deck is also called a Wall Deck as they follow the same concept. There might be some slight differences, but generally a Wall Deck does nothing but Intercept and is as such a variant of the Intercept deck. Most decks use two or more of the those archtypes. Vote and Bloat is a common example as is Stealth and Bleed or Vote and Bleed.

"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> wrote in message news:bdiboi$b5i$1...@reader08.wxs.nl... > I believe I mentioned that an Intercept deck is also called a Wall Deck as > they follow the same concept. There might be some slight differences, but > generally a Wall Deck does nothing but Intercept and is as such a variant of > the Intercept deck. > Sorry, it must have been in my blind spot :-). To differentiate the two deckbuilding methods, I might suggest thinking of them as seperate, given recent debate. Intercept Decks: As you say, solely (or mostly) designed to intercept, mainly for the purposes of getting into combat, attacking the prey and predator's in-game assets, rather than pool. Wall Decks: Designed on the concept of obtaining the table win via 3VP from ousting its first prey, and being last man standing. Deck contents can vary to achieve that goal. I'm thinking here of the former being about decks based around an in-game mechanic (intercept), and the latter being decks based around a tactic for winning the game, for which intercept is a necessary, but not exclusive, part. Maybe its a too-subtle differentiation for most purposes, but OTOH I couldn't ever call a Ravnos-Dominate/Draba deck an Intercept deck either. It operates far too differently from, say, a Tzimisce Intercept deck... DaveZ Atom Weaver

Agreed that an Intercept deck is not automatically a Wall Deck. You *will* however, need Intercept (and as such Auspex, or indeed, Chimerstry) to be a good wall. If everyone and his sister is free to do all those +1 stealth actions, you're not a wall deck. It gets even worse, as was mentioned in the wall deck thread, you simply MUST have Eagle's sight in your wall deck if you want to oust your prey, which forces you to play Auspex. This has been debated over and over again, but I cannot say other than that I agree with that. You simply can't get your 3 VP's if you can't block your preys bleeds. This is why you almost always see Tzimisce Walls, as they have Auspex, a very good combat skill and Animalism for unlimited untaps at the same time. Tremere, with their Thaumaturgy along with Auspex are a good second choice, since most players are more afraid of well designd Thaumaturgy than of Visscicitude combat. Last, but not least, Toreador can be quite a force in a wall deck, if you give them .44's and Blur and Anneke's special is JUST the tool you need in a Wall Deck. To sum it up, I think that Intercept is just an Archtype, which is also part of a Wall Deck. That deck is a deck that used Intercept/Combat (in any form you like, but usually ranged). From that PoV I didn't miss any of the Archtypes. Phoenix

On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, Phoenix wrote: > Agreed that an Intercept deck is not automatically a Wall Deck. You *will* > however, need Intercept (and as such Auspex, or indeed, Chimerstry) to be a > good wall. If everyone and his sister is free to do all those +1 stealth > actions, you're not a wall deck. Becoming Eternally Vigilant is right up there with Big Eyeball. > This is why you almost always see Tzimisce Walls, as they have Auspex, a > very good combat skill and Animalism for unlimited untaps at the same time. And they can become Eternally Vigilant, many right out of the box. > Tremere, with their Thaumaturgy along with Auspex are a good second choice, > since most players are more afraid of well designd Thaumaturgy than of > Visscicitude combat. I'd rate VIC much higher, but then you almost always see it mixed with ANI. > Last, but not least, Toreador can be quite a force in a > wall deck, if you give them .44's and Blur and Anneke's special is JUST the > tool you need in a Wall Deck. The other white meat. David Cherryholmes P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> wrote in message news:<Pine.GSO.4.21.03062...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu>... > On Sat, 28 Jun 2003, Phoenix wrote: > > Tremere, with their Thaumaturgy along with Auspex are a good second choice, > > since most players are more afraid of well designd Thaumaturgy than of > > Visscicitude combat. > > I'd rate VIC much higher, but then you almost always see it mixed with > ANI. Similarly, Thaumaturgy as a combat discipline usually needs AUS, for, cel or lately pot to function well. Pure THA combat is IMO too fragile. -Antero

> Similarly, Thaumaturgy as a combat discipline usually needs AUS, for, > cel or lately pot to function well. Pure THA combat is IMO too > fragile. DOM and Thoughts Betrayed goes a long way to making Tha combat effective I find.

Phoenix wrote: :: Agreed that an Intercept deck is not automatically a Wall Deck. :: You *will* however, need Intercept (and as such Auspex, or indeed, :: Chimerstry) to be a good wall. If everyone and his sister is free :: to do all those +1 stealth actions, you're not a wall deck. just to say i'm definitely for doing stealthy actions with your sister. ;)

David Cherryholmes wrote: : ::: Tremere, with their Thaumaturgy along with Auspex are a good ::: second choice, since most players are more afraid of well designd ::: Thaumaturgy than of Visscicitude combat. :: :: I'd rate VIC much higher, but then you almost always see it mixed :: with ANI. I'll also rate vicissitude higher, especially in combination with rotschreck, if only for the ability to do some Agg on the first round

Dragos Brazil wrote: :: Well, not on purpose but I've been building decks specialized on :: stealing vamps from other players, and using them against my prey, :: destroying/torporizing them (prior to giving them back), or keeping :: them for good. :: :: Some examples: :: Derange + Malk Dementia :: Daemonic Possession (+Antedeluvian Awakening?) :: temption / Form of Corruption (obvious) :: Spirit Marionette+Day Op :: baltimore Purge + Grave Robbing :: :: Just don't know if this would fit in any of the stated categories :: or would be a brand new one :) it's a new one. Let's call it the tempt/rape deck. i should post my infamous "Ur Shulgi rapes your mind and makes you diablerize my prey's voter" deck =)

In message <3f00634c$0$67$79c1...@nan-newsreader-03.noos.net>, reyda <true_...@hotmail.com> writes: >just to say i'm definitely for doing stealthy actions with your sister. ;) I wonder if there's enough traffic for the creation of rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad.sexual-innuendo -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

In article <3f0063ce$0$22754$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>, true_...@hotmail.com says... > I'll also rate vicissitude higher, especially in combination with > rotschreck, if only for the ability to do some Agg on the first round Burst of Sunlight combos with Rotschreck very well and costs less than any of Vicissitude's agg options. -- -Snapcase

> Burst of Sunlight combos with Rotschreck very well and costs less than > any of Vicissitude's agg options. Heh, I had a deck that used that combo. Worked like a charm together with Grave Robbing and Golconda. I think well-build THA combat is far more dangerous than VIC combat, but that's just from my experience. Shotgun Ritual is an evil card combined with Blood to Water...

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Phoenix wrote: > I think well-build THA combat is far more dangerous than VIC combat, but > that's just from my experience. Shotgun Ritual is an evil card combined with > Blood to Water... I don't think that's a legal combo as Blood to Water is not a strike. -Matt

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003, Phoenix wrote: > > Burst of Sunlight combos with Rotschreck very well and costs less than > > any of Vicissitude's agg options. > > Heh, I had a deck that used that combo. Worked like a charm together with > Grave Robbing and Golconda. You know, if I were going to peg any one thing as a feature of *the* metagame right now, it'd be agg + Rotschreck. That puppy is en vogue. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology [ quoted text not captured ]

Snapcase wrote: :: In article <3f0063ce$0$22754$79c1...@nan-newsreader-01.noos.net>, [ quoted text not captured ] except you may not play burst + rotschreck when you are grappled, whereas Chiropteran or body arsenal works.

> > I think well-build THA combat is far more dangerous than VIC combat, but > > that's just from my experience. Shotgun Ritual is an evil card combined with > > Blood to Water... > > I don't think that's a legal combo as Blood to Water is not a strike. Bwaaaa... you're obviously right. What was I thinking...

In message <bdq1u9$iqp$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>, "Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> mumbled something about: [ quoted text not captured ] First, it's not a legal play: Blood to Water isn't a strike. Second, even if it were legal, burn 4 blood to burn 5 blood? That isn't a very good trade for a combat deck, frankly... especially when it doesn't even send them to torpor. -- "There's no gray. There's just white that's got grubby." -- T.P.

> First, it's not a legal play: Blood to Water isn't a strike. I know. See post above. > Second, even if it were legal, burn 4 blood to burn 5 blood? That isn't > a very good trade for a combat deck, frankly... especially when it > doesn't even send them to torpor. Moot, but if you can burn a small blood doll or whatever weenie it's a good trade. You can always play a Taste and let's not forget you still have a strike to play AFTER the BtW. Drain Essence would be my choice. Besides, if you play Shotgun, you play Magic/Ankara too no?

In message <bdqr6l$ar0$1...@reader08.wxs.nl>, "Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> mumbled something about: >> Second, even if it were legal, burn 4 blood to burn 5 blood? That isn't >> a very good trade for a combat deck, frankly... especially when it >> doesn't even send them to torpor. > >Moot, but if you can burn a small blood doll or whatever weenie it's a good >trade. You can always play a Taste and let's not forget you still have a >strike to play AFTER the BtW. Drain Essence would be my choice. You would only be able to burn a weenie by playing Burst of Sunlight or Walk of Flame as your strike. Burn blood effects do not burn the vampire if they do not have enough blood to burn -- the vampire simply ignores any excess. You cannot play Taste and gain blood after Blood to Water, because it is blood burned, not blood lost to damage -- see card text on Taste of Vitae. And Drain Essence would be the *last card* I would play, because almost no vampire will ever have 9 blood on them. Very few vampires will have more than 5, which you just removed with Blood to Water. >Besides, if you play Shotgun, you play Magic/Ankara too no? I don't play with Shotgun Ritual. It's a shit card. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <3f00a9aa$0$13061$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>, reyda <true_...@hotmail.com> writes: >:: Burst of Sunlight combos with Rotschreck very well and costs less >:: than any of Vicissitude's agg options. > >except you may not play burst + rotschreck when you are grappled, whereas >Chiropteran or body arsenal works. True enough. But you probably wouldn't rely on it solely, knowing that things can go wrong, just as a Tzimisce deck might include a few copies of Breath of the Dragon, for when it finds itself against a gun deck. Because the Burst+Rotschreck combo isn't easily repeatable (you need to go round the table again, before you can play Rotschreck again), it would be foolish to include *that* many of them. There are quite a few playable, if not superb, Thaumaturgy strikes for use under Immortal Grapple these days. [ quoted text not captured ]

Phoenix wrote: ::: First, it's not a legal play: Blood to Water isn't a strike. :: :: I know. See post above. you don't know everything yet =) i suggest you browse the whitewolf site for the exact, clarified card texts. i was thinking that only remote inuit people didn't know that blood to water does not burn vampires =) ::: Second, even if it were legal, burn 4 blood to burn 5 blood? ::: That isn't a very good trade for a combat deck, frankly... ::: especially when it doesn't even send them to torpor. :: :: Moot, but if you can burn a small blood doll or whatever weenie :: it's a good trade. the art of combat is to harm without being hurt. If torporising/burning an opponent minion costs you a vampire, then you're not doing right. Exception : sacrifice a 2 cap to get rid of a 9+ cap. :: You can always play a Taste and let's not :: forget you still have a strike to play AFTER the BtW. Drain :: Essence would be my choice. you can't play taste of vitae after Blood to water, nor after Drain Essence. If you play only 'steal blood' cards, don't even include taste of vitae in your deck. Put them in your 'blood rage/fury' deck instead =) :: Besides, if you play Shotgun, you play Magic/Ankara too no? takes up slots. Reducing the costs of card is good when you play expensive cards. By avoiding the use of shotgun ritual and other funky stuff, you are not forced to play ankara citadel. Plus not all Thaumaturgists are Camarilla Tremere. =)

James Coupe wrote: :: In message <3f00a9aa$0$13061$79c1...@nan-newsreader-02.noos.net>, :: reyda <true_...@hotmail.com> writes: ::::: Burst of Sunlight combos with Rotschreck very well and costs ::::: less than any of Vicissitude's agg options. ::: ::: except you may not play burst + rotschreck when you are grappled, ::: whereas Chiropteran or body arsenal works. :: :: True enough. But you probably wouldn't rely on it solely, knowing :: that things can go wrong, just as a Tzimisce deck might include a :: few copies of Breath of the Dragon, for when it finds itself :: against a gun deck. True, but this is some metagame choice. As the environment here turned to more equipment, a lot of tzimisce decks pack Canine Hordes (!!) and terror frenzies. :: Because the Burst+Rotschreck combo isn't easily repeatable (you :: need to go round the table again, before you can play Rotschreck :: again), it would be foolish to include *that* many of them. There :: are quite a few playable, if not superb, Thaumaturgy strikes for :: use under Immortal Grapple these days. Curiously enough , most Tha decks i see still rely on stealing blood and doing ranged damage. I would go for the grapple too if i had time to build a new one. Blood rage/fury almost guarantees you'll inflict damage so you limit the risk of being disarmed in combat, and you can always play taste of vitae to refill your vampires. I don't understand, maybe people are too shy to try new things ? =)

> You would only be able to burn a weenie by playing Burst of Sunlight or > Walk of Flame as your strike. Burn blood effects do not burn the > vampire if they do not have enough blood to burn -- the vampire simply > ignores any excess. Well, excuse me, but my card says this: Blood to Water cost: 2 blood tha: Only usable during Strike Resolution. If the opposing minion is a vampire he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise he or she is burned. Not usable during the first round of combat. THA: As above, but if the opposing minion is a vampire he or she burns 5 blood. The only card text migration or errata on the White Wolf site is that BtW is only usable at close range. Nothing about allies. Now, I have read the card text from their official card list and there it does indeed say the ally thing and such and it also removed the otherwise he or she is burned line, but *how* could I've know how this card really works if I hadn't brought it up here. By reading the whole spoiler list? I though the errata and migrations sites were for that. > You cannot play Taste and gain blood after Blood to Water, because it is > blood burned, not blood lost to damage -- see card text on Taste of > Vitae. I suppose I only have an old card that says "blood lost by" and has no damage clause somewhere. I wasn't using it anyway since I only have one. > And Drain Essence would be the *last card* I would play, because almost > no vampire will ever have 9 blood on them. Very few vampires will have > more than 5, which you just removed with Blood to Water. It suppose it depends on your environment, since I see big vamps with close to full blood all the time.

> you don't know everything yet =) That's why I ask things. And on the BtW thing, see my post above. How could I've know... > i suggest you browse the whitewolf site for the exact, clarified card texts. > i was thinking that only remote inuit people didn't know that blood to water > does not burn vampires =) yeah when I have spare time on my hands I will read the entire spoiler list and compare every single text in there with my own cards. </sarcasm> > the art of combat is to harm without being hurt. If torporising/burning an > opponent minion costs you a vampire, then you're not doing right. Exception > : sacrifice a 2 cap to get rid of a 9+ cap. If you "sac" a 5 cap to get rid of a key vampire it's a good trade too. The art of combat is not hurt without being hurt, it's to kill what your prey values most and getting out of it in a better shape than him. > you can't play taste of vitae after Blood to water, nor after Drain Essence. > If you play only 'steal blood' cards, don't even include taste of vitae in > your deck. Put them in your 'blood rage/fury' deck instead =) Like above, I only have one of them (and it's a Jyhad version) that says nothing about blood lost to damage, but just blood lost. I never used them anyway, since I only have one. > takes up slots. Reducing the costs of card is good when you play expensive > cards. By avoiding the use of shotgun ritual and other funky stuff, you are > not forced to play ankara citadel. Plus not all Thaumaturgists are Camarilla > Tremere. =) Lucky enough 90% are. Plus, Tha cards tend to be expensive no matter what (exceptions are there obviously) so Ankara is never a bad choice.

Phoenix wrote: >>You would only be able to burn a weenie by playing Burst of Sunlight or >>Walk of Flame as your strike. Burn blood effects do not burn the >>vampire if they do not have enough blood to burn -- the vampire simply >>ignores any excess. > > Well, excuse me, but my card says this: > > Blood to Water > cost: 2 blood > tha: Only usable during Strike Resolution. If the opposing minion is a > vampire he or she burns 3 blood; otherwise he or she is burned. Not usable > during the first round of combat. > THA: As above, but if the opposing minion is a vampire he or she burns 5 > blood. > > The only card text migration or errata on the White Wolf site is that BtW is > only usable at close range. Nothing about allies. > > Now, I have read the card text from their official card list and there it > does indeed say the ally thing and such and it also removed the otherwise he > or she is burned line, but *how* could I've know how this card really works > if I hadn't brought it up here. By reading the whole spoiler list? I though > the errata and migrations sites were for that. No migration. The card text you cite says the same thing. If the opposing minion is a vampire, do one thing; otherwise, do another. Where the "one thing" is: burn blood (from the vampire). And the "another" is: he (the non-vampire) is burned. There are only two types of minions: vampires and allies. If the opposing minion is not a vampire, he must be an ally. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

In message <bdrsnq$6fl$1...@reader08.wxs.nl>, "Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> mumbled something about: >> takes up slots. Reducing the costs of card is good when you play expensive >> cards. By avoiding the use of shotgun ritual and other funky stuff, you >> not forced to play ankara citadel. Plus not all Thaumaturgists are >Camarilla >> Tremere. =) > >Lucky enough 90% are. Plus, Tha cards tend to be expensive no matter what >(exceptions are there obviously) so Ankara is never a bad choice. Number of minions with superior THA: 47 Number of those who are Camarilla Tremere: 27 Also, THA cards are not expensive. Theft of Vitae is their best card and is free. Apportation is probably second-best, and is free. Magic of the Smith and Blood Fury each cost 1 blood, and are well worth it. Cryptic Mission is free. Walk of Flame is free. Burst of Sunlight is free. Weather Control is free. Even Wind Dance (puke) is free. Rutor's Hand is hideously expensive, but you always want to be down at least two blood anyway so you have room for the Theft, so it's not TOO bad. What, you're not playing Theft? No wonder everything looks so expensive. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 01 Jul 2003 08:50:53 -0400, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> scrawled: >In message <bdrsnq$6fl$1...@reader08.wxs.nl>, >"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> mumbled something about: > >>> takes up slots. Reducing the costs of card is good when you play expensive >>> cards. By avoiding the use of shotgun ritual and other funky stuff, you >>> not forced to play ankara citadel. Plus not all Thaumaturgists are >>Camarilla >>> Tremere. =) >> >>Lucky enough 90% are. Plus, Tha cards tend to be expensive no matter what >>(exceptions are there obviously) so Ankara is never a bad choice. > >Number of minions with superior THA: 47 >Number of those who are Camarilla Tremere: 27 > >Also, THA cards are not expensive. Theft of Vitae is their best card >and is free. I like to think of it costing -1/-2 in most circumstances. :) salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

> > No migration. The card text you cite says the same thing. > > If the opposing minion is a vampire, do one thing; otherwise, do another. > Where the "one thing" is: burn blood (from the vampire). > And the "another" is: he (the non-vampire) is burned. > > There are only two types of minions: vampires and allies. > If the opposing minion is not a vampire, he must be an ally. > Hmmm. I suppose that's a matter of interpretation. The card text *is* confusing as you cite it and incorrect from a grammar PoV. Just to give a more sense making example: =If you own a house, you have to pay the rent, otherwise you're in a trouble= (if you're a vampire, you have to burn blood, otherwise you're burned) --> which is the text on BtW Which would mean (analog to the old wording of BtW): =If you don't own a house, you're in trouble.= (If you're not a vampire you're burned) Hence my wrong interpretation of the card. No worries, I'll play it correct from now on, but I do believe this warrants a Migration or at least to be mentioned in the errata. I already noticed the CE edition has proper wording of the intended effect.

> Hmmm. I suppose that's a matter of interpretation. The card text *is* > confusing as you cite it and incorrect from a grammar PoV. Only to you ;-P > Just to give a more sense making example: > > =If you own a house, you have to pay the rent, otherwise you're in a > trouble= > (if you're a vampire, you have to burn blood, otherwise you're burned) --> > which is the text on BtW 1) If you own the house you don't have to pay rent -that would be silly. 2) The card has a *semi-colon* (where you have your second comma. 3) There is no comma after "vampire" on the card. (equivalent to your comma after "house".

I play Theft and Apportation. No worries. Soul Burn costs 1 Blood Fury costs 1 Rutor's cost 1 (but more likely 4) Magic costs 1 Cauldron costs 1 BtW costs 2 Drain costs 1 Eldritch Glimmer costs 1 +X Corruption's Purge costs 2 Shotgun Ritual costs 2 There's some cards with Visceratica/Thaumaturgy that cost blood too, but I'm not counting them. I know you think of these cards as crap (though Soul Burn is good IMO), but that's not the point. The costs really get quite high when you stack 'em. A Strike for the first round, 1 blood, a strike for the second etc etc. Now I suppose you could play with 20 Thefts, but how much fun is that? This opposed to for example potence, where most cards are free (at least the ones that are good, Signpost, IG, Undead Strength or the occasional Sewer Lid). The other blood intensive combat skills (VIC, QUI and OBT to some extent) at least have a patch of cheap cards at their disposal. Thaumaturgy has not, which makes it an expensive combat skill if you ask me. Theft is just the perfect card to compensate for that, but, again, I don't see the point or the fun in playing a deck with 20 of them. Also, the number of vampires with THA has nothing to do with the number of THA decks that are mostly Tremere. I see some Assamite/Tremere around for the AUS/THA decks, but that's about it. I'm not counting off-clan discipline decks (such as tha/pot or tha/cel) since you're not even talking about a clan deck anymore. Besides, how many Tha combat decks have you seen without a single Camarilla Tremere?

Phoenix wrote: > Hmmm. I suppose that's a matter of interpretation. The card text *is* > confusing as you cite it and incorrect from a grammar PoV. It is correct from a grammar PoV. Note the semicolon in the Ancient Hearts printing's card text. > Just to give a more sense making example: > > =If you own a house, you have to pay the rent, otherwise you're in a > trouble= > (if you're a vampire, you have to burn blood, otherwise you're burned) --> > which is the text on BtW Not the same. You have changed BtW's semicolon to a comma to match your changed usage (attaching the "otherwise" to the "have to pay the rent" part instead). > Hence my wrong interpretation of the card. No worries, I'll play it correct > from now on, but I do believe this warrants a Migration or at least to be > mentioned in the errata. I already noticed the CE edition has proper wording > of the intended effect. The effect was reworded to help people who would otherwise overlook the implications of the semicolon. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> schreef in bericht news:1ff06bvci0v8o$.1au1fkl62xve1$.dlg@40tude.net... [ quoted text not captured ] I'm not following your first point. You're right on the semi-colon thing. That doesn't change the meaning of it though. Anyway, what the old card says isn't of any importance as the new card (which I don't have) is perfectly clear on it. it says something along the lines of "if the opposing minion is an ally then it is burned. If it's a vampire he or she burns 3(5) blood", which is FAR less confusing than the old text. I still believe it should be mentioned on the migration or errata site, since I'm not the only one who made this mistake.

Phoenix wrote: ::: i suggest you browse the whitewolf site for the exact, clarified ::: card texts. i was thinking that only remote inuit people didn't ::: know that blood to water does not burn vampires =) :: :: yeah when I have spare time on my hands I will read the entire :: spoiler list and compare every single text in there with my own :: cards. </sarcasm> if you want to play this game by the rules, you'd better do what you say on the line above. Without the sarcasm. ::: the art of combat is to harm without being hurt. If ::: torporising/burning an opponent minion costs you a vampire, then ::: you're not doing right. :: Exception :::: sacrifice a 2 cap to get rid of a 9+ cap. :: :: If you "sac" a 5 cap to get rid of a key vampire it's a good trade :: too. The art of combat is not hurt without being hurt, it's to :: kill what your prey values most and getting out of it in a better :: shape than him. yes and no. If your 5 cap is tooled with a gun, blood doll, leather jacket, he is valuable since the investment you put on him does have a value. Plus, it takes 2 turn to influence out a 5 cap. A 2 cap is quite expendable since you can have 2 out per turn. (It's my own point of view) ::: you can't play taste of vitae after Blood to water, nor after ::: Drain Essence. If you play only 'steal blood' cards, don't even ::: include taste of vitae in your deck. Put them in your 'blood ::: rage/fury' deck instead =) :: :: Like above, I only have one of them (and it's a Jyhad version) :: that says nothing about blood lost to damage, but just blood lost. :: I never used them anyway, since I only have one. Crap... you are talkinga bout cards you didn't ever used in the first place ? O_ô ? How cocky is that ?? ::: takes up slots. Reducing the costs of card is good when you play ::: expensive cards. By avoiding the use of shotgun ritual and other ::: funky stuff, you are not forced to play ankara citadel. Plus not ::: all Thaumaturgists are Camarilla Tremere. =) :: :: Lucky enough 90% are. wrong =) (and i really don't cant to make a list of all free Tha stuff ) the goal was not to flame you, but to head you to the latest card text *before* you ask questions. =) reyda

Phoenix wrote: :: Besides, how many Tha combat decks have you seen without a single :: Camarilla Tremere? Tons. !tremere, for the most part. and also !/brujah. giovannis. Assamites. Followers of set. Ventrue. stealing blood, controlling weather or infuriating the blood are good tactics for all of those.

In message <bds52v$eu3$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>, "Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> mumbled something about: >I play Theft and Apportation. No worries. > >Soul Burn costs 1 1's not expensive. Never has been, never will be. Assume that you are reading this sentence in response to each "___ costs 1" offering. >Blood Fury costs 1 >Rutor's cost 1 (but more likely 4) Dealt with in previous post. This, and Seeds of Corruption, are their only two expensive cards that are worth putting in your deck. >Magic costs 1 >Cauldron costs 1 This card is shit. >BtW costs 2 The opportunity cost of this card is far too high. The actual cost of the card isn't typically the problem, especially after Theft-for-2 in the first round; however, getting to the second round at close range with someone who has enough blood to make playing the card worthwhile is far, far harder than it looks. Very few second-round cards are worth playing. >Drain costs 1 Second-round card. Used to be shit because it cost 2 -- is still a very iffy card because unless your opponent has 4 blood to steal, you're usually better off with another Theft that can be used first-round too. >Eldritch Glimmer costs 1 +X Shit card. "I empty myself to watch you Skin of Steel." >Corruption's Purge costs 2 Seeds of Corruption, I believe? This is not a bad card, but at only +1 stealth it is sure to be blocked most times. >Shotgun Ritual costs 2 This is a shit card which enables you to play a bunch of cards that are, by and large, also shit. >There's some cards with Visceratica/Thaumaturgy that cost blood too, but I'm >not counting them. "Costs blood" does not automatically equal "expensive". >I know you think of these cards as crap (though Soul Burn is good IMO), but >that's not the point. The costs really get quite high when you stack 'em. Then you should stop stacking shit cards, as opposed to grafting on robotic arms to help you pay the costs of the shit cards. >A Strike for the first round, 1 blood, a strike for the second etc etc. Now >I suppose you could play with 20 Thefts, but how much fun is that? I think that winning is fun. I think that losing because I put a bunch of shit cards in my deck, instead of cards that will help me win, is generally not fun. >This opposed to for example potence, where most cards are free (at least the >ones that are good, Signpost, IG, Undead Strength or the occasional Sewer >Lid). This merely reiterates my point. The cards which are good in Thaumaturgy are all free. >The other blood intensive combat skills (VIC, QUI and OBT to some extent) at >least have a patch of cheap cards at their disposal. Thaumaturgy has not, What Quietus cards are you thinking of which are free? Quietus is FAR more blood-intensive than Thaumaturgy ever will be -- in a sharp contrast, most of Quietus' free cards are shit in comparison to the non-free cards. Taste of Death -- 1 blood Blood Sweat -- 1 blood Thin Blood -- 1 blood Disease -- 1 blood Wave of Lethargy -- 1 blood >which makes it an expensive combat skill if you ask me. Theft is just the >perfect card to compensate for that, but, again, I don't see the point or >the fun in playing a deck with 20 of them. Theft, Apportation, and Walk are all free. Many Tremere decks perform just superbly with only these cards -- making Thaumaturgy a very NON-expensive combat skill, frankly. The point? Winning. The fun? Winning, of course. Not "I get Thadius Zho out". This is a card game, not an RPG. >Also, the number of vampires with THA has nothing to do with the number of >THA decks that are mostly Tremere. I see some Assamite/Tremere around for The number of decks is not what you asked about, though. Moving target defense. I do not agree that all THA decks are mostly Tremere, because Hannigan, Reverend Blackwood, Bryan van Duesen, Brooke, and Goratrix are all very good. >the AUS/THA decks, but that's about it. I'm not counting off-clan discipline >decks (such as tha/pot or tha/cel) since you're not even talking about a >clan deck anymore. Of course I'm not. Most THA decks are a mix of Tremere/!Tremere, and occasionally some others thrown in for flavor. >Besides, how many Tha combat decks have you seen without a single Camarilla >Tremere? This is irrelevant to whether or not every THA-based deck should include Ankara Citadel, which is what you originally asked. Again, the moving target defense. [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip> > the goal was not to flame you, but to head you to the latest card text > *before* you ask questions. =) That's what a migration/errata list is for. As I mentioned before, the old wording of BtW is *not* very clear or at least it isn't to me. Unless I had read the newer card text (which I, again, don't own) OR looked it up in the spoiler list, as opposed to the errata/migrations, then I would have found it. I was merely surprised by the actual effect, since I never even had a doubt on how the card worked (and neither did any of the ~10 people I play this game with). Heck, if I hadn't mentioned the whole card (in a wrong context, but anyway), I would still play it different.

Phoenix wrote: > <snip> > >>the goal was not to flame you, but to head you to the latest card text >>*before* you ask questions. =) > > > That's what a migration/errata list is for. The migration list is for cards whose effective card text has changed. The errata list is for cards whose current card text is not followed or has been added to. Blood to Water not burning vampires doesn't fall into either of those categories. > As I mentioned before, the old wording of BtW is *not* very clear or at > least it isn't to me. > Unless I had read the newer card text (which I, again, don't own) OR looked > it up in the spoiler list, as opposed to the errata/migrations, then I would > have found it. > I was merely surprised by the actual effect, since I never even had a doubt > on how the card worked (and neither did any of the ~10 people I play this > game with). > Heck, if I hadn't mentioned the whole card (in a wrong context, but anyway), > I would still play it different. Trap used to be misread by many players as well, and its text was reworded to rectify that. But the effect didn't change, so the change isn't considered a migration. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >Soul Burn costs 1 > > 1's not expensive. Never has been, never will be. Assume that you are > reading this sentence in response to each "___ costs 1" offering. 1 *is* expensive if you're talking about a 4 cap vampire that's probably gonna get hit in return too. Pay one, deal 2. Not a really good bargain. > >Blood Fury costs 1 Pay 1, deal 3 and negate weapons or a round plus you get around Fort.. Good card, but close range, so it all of a sudden is Pay 1, deal 3, receive *at least* one. 3-2. Not really a good bargain again for a combat deck. > >Rutor's cost 1 (but more likely 4) > > Dealt with in previous post. I know. It's still expensive. > >Cauldron costs 1 > This card is shit. That is not the point. > >BtW costs 2 > The opportunity cost of this card is far too high. The actual cost of > the card isn't typically the problem, especially after Theft-for-2 in > the first round; however, getting to the second round at close range > with someone who has enough blood to make playing the card worthwhile is > far, far harder than it looks. I suppose it is. Again I refer to how I (we) used to play it (incorrectly, but we still did) > >Eldritch Glimmer costs 1 +X > Shit card. "I empty myself to watch you Skin of Steel." And of course *all* decks use fortitude. > >Shotgun Ritual costs 2 > This is a shit card which enables you to play a bunch of cards that are, > by and large, also shit. <snip> > I think that winning is fun. > > I think that losing because I put a bunch of shit cards in my deck, > instead of cards that will help me win, is generally not fun. Ah, that's we differ. I think of fun as having a fun, versatile deck that I can play on any table and just have fun with it. I frankly don't give a flying flip about winning, although it is obviously always my goal when I'm sitting at the table. If you can have fun by playing 20 copies of the same card and doing the same trick over and over again, good for you. It's not for me, so I think up ways to get your "crap" cards working, and quite frankly, they actually do if you carefully conctruct your deck. > >This opposed to for example potence, where most cards are free (at least the > >ones that are good, Signpost, IG, Undead Strength or the occasional Sewer > >Lid). > > This merely reiterates my point. The cards which are good in > Thaumaturgy are all free. This merely reiterates MY point that "cost blood" = expenive for combat. > >The other blood intensive combat skills (VIC, QUI and OBT to some extent) at > >least have a patch of cheap cards at their disposal. Thaumaturgy has not, > What Quietus cards are you thinking of which are free? Quietus is FAR > more blood-intensive than Thaumaturgy ever will be -- in a sharp > contrast, most of Quietus' free cards are shit in comparison to the > non-free cards. Which is why I mentioned it under the BLOOD INTENSIVE combat skills. Also, the QUI Strikes are FAR superior over the THA strikes because they do tons of damage, most of which is unpreventable and easily Taste-of-Vitae-able. Plus they have a path to make their strikes (and all their cards for that matter) a whole lot cheaper. I have less trouble keeping Assamites at a healthy blood level than I have with Tremere. Maybe because I don't build cookie cutter decks... > Taste of Death -- 1 blood > Blood Sweat -- 1 blood > Thin Blood -- 1 blood > Disease -- 1 blood > Wave of Lethargy -- 1 blood So we agree qui is expensive. Yet all those cards cost a mere one blood... > "Costs blood" does not automatically equal "expensive". > The fun? Winning, of course. Not "I get Thadius Zho out". This is a > card game, not an RPG. It is a card **GAME**, not a card competition... > >Also, the number of vampires with THA has nothing to do with the number of > >THA decks that are mostly Tremere. I see some Assamite/Tremere around for > > The number of decks is not what you asked about, though. Moving target > defense. Misinterpretation on my part. I thought you were referring to decks. Now at least admit most decks that have Tha combat have at least some Camarilla Tremere in them. > Of course I'm not. Most THA decks are a mix of Tremere/!Tremere, and > occasionally some others thrown in for flavor. > This is irrelevant to whether or not every THA-based deck should include > Ankara Citadel, which is what you originally asked. Again, the moving > target defense. I didn't say every THA based deck. I just mentioned that if you play Shotgun and BtW (aka not only Apportation/Theft) you'll probably play Ankara too. Never did I say every THA combat deck should have Ankara and the whole crapload.

In message <fsf3gvohn5903ocef...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: >>Drain costs 1 > >Second-round card. Used to be shit because it cost 2 -- is still a very >iffy card because unless your opponent has 4 blood to steal, you're >usually better off with another Theft that can be used first-round too. Just latching on to one plausible card, but it applies to a number of the "second round is hard" cards. If you're still seeing a fair amount of Strike: Combat Ends, they're not altogether bad. Telepathic Tracking will hit second round for you - which leaves you potentially in a good position to play Blood to Water (it will hit, no matter what, bar DI). Similarly, Drain Vitae *might* be an option. But you'd have to judge it on your metagame. I agree about Cauldron of Blood, though. I tend to find most of Xian's playstyle with the Tremere more convincing, than trying to use them as combat wombats, though. As with all decks with a combat element, a few nice surprises is always good - which is where I think Shotgun Ritual isn't *that* bad. I wouldn't rely on it, and it'd be nicer/less painful if I had an Ankara Citadel out (for Govern, Conditioning, Perfect Clarity and so on), but even the threat of a well-timed Shotgun Ritual/Walk of Flame wouldn't be altogether unwelcome. The Tremere tend to lack good first round shocks, which most other people have: Burning Wrath, Claws, Breath of the Dragon/Vic Claws, Taste of Death and so on. Even a gun deck can play a Dragon Breath Rounds if it really wants to go to town. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Phoenix wrote: > Which is why I mentioned it under the BLOOD INTENSIVE combat skills. Also, > the QUI Strikes are FAR superior over the THA strikes because they do tons > of damage, most of which is unpreventable and easily Taste-of-Vitae-able. The QUI strikes which are "far superior" are also only useable at long range. This generates quite a bit of overhead for making them useable. And, as you note, they cost one blood to play. Now, maybe you want to be at long to Theft, but you don't need it, and it is unpreventable, and it gains you two instead of costing one. Downside is, of course, that it isn't damage. The card slots that are mandatory support for QUI combat can instead be all sorts of things in a THA deck.... bleed, bounce, bloat, intercept. Really, if you're talking QUI, you're actually talking about *two* disciplines, so a comparison between it and THA isn't expecially applicable. David Cherryholmes compiling lots of stuff today.....

> > Trap used to be misread by many players as well, and its text was reworded to > rectify that. But the effect didn't change, so the change isn't considered a > migration. Fine already, I'll drop it.

"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> wrote in message news:bds5nn$dif$1...@reader08.wxs.nl... > > "Timlagor" <Timlagor...@yahoo.co.uk> schreef in bericht > news:1ff06bvci0v8o$.1au1fkl62xve1$.dlg@40tude.net... > > > Hmmm. I suppose that's a matter of interpretation. The card text *is* > > > confusing as you cite it and incorrect from a grammar PoV. > > > > Only to you ;-P > > > > > Just to give a more sense making example: > > > > > > =If you own a house, you have to pay the rent, otherwise you're in a > > > trouble= > > > (if you're a vampire, you have to burn blood, otherwise you're > burned) --> > > > which is the text on BtW > > > > 1) If you own the house you don't have to pay rent -that would be silly. > > 2) The card has a *semi-colon* (where you have your second comma. > > 3) There is no comma after "vampire" on the card. (equivalent to your > comma > > after "house". > > I'm not following your first point. You're right on the semi-colon thing. > That doesn't change the meaning of it though. His first point is that if you own the house then you don't pay rent. Renting a house specifically means that you don't own the house. What you are thinking of paying is the note on a morgage that use used to buy the house. -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

In article <bdsjsm$ll4$1...@reader10.wxs.nl>, izaak.h...@o2.nl says... > > >Soul Burn costs 1 > 1 *is* expensive if you're talking about a 4 cap vampire that's probably > gonna get hit in return too. Pay one, deal 2. Not a really good bargain. Unless you're talking about a ranged strike which can be used at (get ready for this)... Long Range (tm). > Pay 1, deal 3 and negate weapons or a round plus you get around Fort.. Good > card, but close range, so it all of a sudden is Pay 1, deal 3, receive *at > least* one. 3-2. Not really a good bargain again for a combat deck. Before it was a hand strike, I would have agreed with you. Now you can graft on potence and punch for 5+ with Blood Fury and not have to worry about fortitude. > > >Eldritch Glimmer costs 1 +X > > Shit card. "I empty myself to watch you Skin of Steel." > > And of course *all* decks use fortitude. See also: Strike: Dodge, Strike: Combat Ends > Ah, that's we differ. I think of fun as having a fun, versatile deck that I > can play on any table and just have fun with it. I frankly don't give a > flying flip about winning, although it is obviously always my goal when I'm > sitting at the table. If you can have fun by playing 20 copies of the same > card and doing the same trick over and over again, good for you. It's not > for me, so I think up ways to get your "crap" cards working, and quite > frankly, they actually do if you carefully conctruct your deck. There's nothing wrong/unfun with using lots of copies of a card in your deck. Especially when the alternative choices are /not/ very good cards. > > This merely reiterates my point. The cards which are good in > > Thaumaturgy are all free. > > This merely reiterates MY point that "cost blood" = expenive for combat. That's quite simply not the case. There are plenty of cards that "cost blood", and aren't terribly expensive for a combat. Pushing the Limit comes to mind. The problem with Thaumaturgy combat cards that cost blood is they all happen to suck (except Soul Burn and Blood Fury, in the right circumstances). This isn't necessarily the case in other disciplines. > > Taste of Death -- 1 blood > > Blood Sweat -- 1 blood > > Thin Blood -- 1 blood > > Disease -- 1 blood > > Wave of Lethargy -- 1 blood > > So we agree qui is expensive. Yet all those cards cost a mere one blood... The point is, those cards tend to be stacked together, but the effect is usually pretty decent (hard to dodge, impossible to prevent). Compare that to Shotgun Ritual+Drain Essence which gets foiled by dodge OR prevent OR combat ends (not to mention nets you 0 blood if they strike hands for 1). > Now at least admit most decks that have Tha combat have at least some Camarilla > Tremere in them. Most decks that have tha combat also have some Sabbat Tremere Antitribu in them as well. -- -Snapcase

In message <bdsjsm$ll4$1...@reader10.wxs.nl>, "Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> mumbled something about: >> >Soul Burn costs 1 >> >> 1's not expensive. Never has been, never will be. Assume that you are >> reading this sentence in response to each "___ costs 1" offering. > >1 *is* expensive if you're talking about a 4 cap vampire that's probably >gonna get hit in return too. Pay one, deal 2. Not a really good bargain. Why are you getting hit for 1 in return? Don't you have maneuvers? This IS a ranged strike, you know. >> >Blood Fury costs 1 > >Pay 1, deal 3 and negate weapons or a round plus you get around Fort.. Good >card, but close range, so it all of a sudden is Pay 1, deal 3, receive *at >least* one. 3-2. Not really a good bargain again for a combat deck. Blood Fury is more complicated to use than the other cards. However, its stackability with strength increasers means that a Depraved THA minion is now striking for 4. Stack POT on with it, and big unpreventable POT strikes start to happen. Blood Fury is a decent discouragement against weenie POT Rush. "Fine, you IG me? I hit you back for 3 while you hit me for 7. How do you like them apples, Koko?" >> >Rutor's cost 1 (but more likely 4) >> >> Dealt with in previous post. > >I know. It's still expensive. And not usefully assisted by the Ankara Citadel, either. It still requires you to spend 3 blood, unless you're a lunatic and want to attempt rescue actions. >> >Cauldron costs 1 >> This card is shit. > >That is not the point. Actually, yes, it very much IS the point. Your quote: "Lucky enough 90% are. Plus, Tha cards tend to be expensive no matter what (exceptions are there obviously) so Ankara is never a bad choice." The point in question is whether Ankara is a mandatory inclusion in all THA combat decks. The initial gross misstatement of 90% has long since been refuted and left on the sidelines. The second gross misstatement of "tend to be expensive" is in the process of being refuted. I am doing so by showing that the most commonly-seen and effective THA cards are, in fact, free or cost 1 blood; not at all expensive. Demonstrating that a card is shit supports my point by indicating that the card would neither be commonly seen NOR effective, and therefore its cost is no longer relevant in the decision of whether the Ankara Citadel should be included in your deck. Broken down for you in words of two syllables: Cauldron of Blood is a shit card. Shit cards should not be put in your deck. Cauldron of Blud is therefore not a good reason to use Ankara Citadel. >> >BtW costs 2 >> The opportunity cost of this card is far too high. The actual cost of >> the card isn't typically the problem, especially after Theft-for-2 in >> the first round; however, getting to the second round at close range >> with someone who has enough blood to make playing the card worthwhile is >> far, far harder than it looks. > >I suppose it is. Again I refer to how I (we) used to play it (incorrectly, >but we still did) How does how you USED to play it have any bearing on whether or not the card is appropriate to include in a deck? >> >Eldritch Glimmer costs 1 +X >> Shit card. "I empty myself to watch you Skin of Steel." > >And of course *all* decks use fortitude. Enough do that you need to be thinking about it, especially when you've just played a Theft or Blood Fury first round and denied them the opportunity to play their prevent cards. Walk of Flame suffers from this same problem, except that it is free and therefore you get to keep all your blood when someone prevents it... a vast improvement. >> I think that winning is fun. >> >> I think that losing because I put a bunch of shit cards in my deck, >> instead of cards that will help me win, is generally not fun. > >Ah, that's we differ. I think of fun as having a fun, versatile deck that I >can play on any table and just have fun with it. I frankly don't give a >flying flip about winning, although it is obviously always my goal when I'm >sitting at the table. If you can have fun by playing 20 copies of the same >card and doing the same trick over and over again, good for you. It's not >for me, so I think up ways to get your "crap" cards working, and quite >frankly, they actually do if you carefully conctruct your deck. You make a number of incorrect assumptions here. Choosing to put good cards in my deck does not prevent me from having a fun, versatile deck that I can play anywhere and have fun. On the contrary, it allows me to have a deck that can sit in front of weenie DOM bleed, in front of POT Rush, in front of Ventrue vote, and still have a good chance of winning, or at least playing the game... INSTEAD of being completely hosed at the start. Furthermore, I have spent a great deal of time and effort attempting to get "crap" cards working, and a great deal of time doing so with the Tremere and THA. Quite frankly, many of these cards do NOT work against competent opponents playing decent decks, no matter how carefully you construct your deck. There are simply too many downsides and opportunity costs -- you have to hope, for example, that nobody is carrying presses to end, OR you have to include so many presses that you end up in combat with no strikes. I have used every single THA combat card in a deck at some point, except for Machine Blitz. These are not conclusions based on casual offhanded remarks. These are based on a number of years of experience playing the Tremere at both close and long range, while attempting to construct decks that are capable of winning in a large number of situations, including tournaments attended by players from around the world. You are welcome to spend your time repeating my efforts. When you are finished and have successfully concluded that Shotgun Ritual and Eldritch Glimmer can remain the crap cards that they are, let me know and we'll continue this discussion. From what I can tell, you are consistently not giving your opponents enough credit; you are assuming that they will just be standing there and taking it, instead of trying to either hit you back, Dodge, or play S:CE. I will point out, however, that the Ankara Citadel is unique and cannot be jostled around with Heidelburg. All your other vampires will be paying full price for your cards. Sure, you can build the Magic/Ankara Shotgun Ritual/Eldritch Glimmer/Taste deck, but you're going to be a one-vampire wonder all game long... and lord help you if someone happens to be carrying ranged aggravated damage (Tzimisce, Ivory Bow... take your pick), because your vampire will be in torpor and diablerized before you can even blink. And you'll have spent X blood before you even saw if they were going to S:CE or prevent. >> >This opposed to for example potence, where most cards are free (at least >the >> >ones that are good, Signpost, IG, Undead Strength or the occasional Sewer >> >Lid). >> >> This merely reiterates my point. The cards which are good in >> Thaumaturgy are all free. > >This merely reiterates MY point that "cost blood" = expenive for combat. No, this is not true. Taste of Death, for example, is not expensive at all, yet it costs a blood. It is well worth its cost for the first-round 2R aggravated damage. A cost of 1 blood is only expensive when the card happens to suck. >> >The other blood intensive combat skills (VIC, QUI and OBT to some extent) >at >> >least have a patch of cheap cards at their disposal. Thaumaturgy has not, > >> What Quietus cards are you thinking of which are free? Quietus is FAR >> more blood-intensive than Thaumaturgy ever will be -- in a sharp >> contrast, most of Quietus' free cards are shit in comparison to the >> non-free cards. > >Which is why I mentioned it under the BLOOD INTENSIVE combat skills. Also, Is that also why you mentioned that it had a patch of "cheap cards" at its disposal? We're back to including the shit cards in your deck again, I'm afraid. >the QUI Strikes are FAR superior over the THA strikes because they do tons >of damage, most of which is unpreventable and easily Taste-of-Vitae-able. The strikes themselves are superior. The setup for those strikes is much more difficult, because the two most common strikes are long-range-only. If someone can maneuver back to close, you can't even PLAY the strike, and your hand jams up terribly, unlike Theft of Vitae, which is playable at close or long. >Plus they have a path to make their strikes (and all their cards for that >matter) a whole lot cheaper. I have less trouble keeping Assamites at a >healthy blood level than I have with Tremere. Maybe because I don't build >cookie cutter decks... When you created the cutter in the first place, are you still allowed to eat the cookies that you bake with it? You would be surprised at the decks I play, I suspect. Again, choosing to use good cards isn't the same as building cookie-cutter decks. >> Taste of Death -- 1 blood >> Blood Sweat -- 1 blood >> Thin Blood -- 1 blood >> Disease -- 1 blood >> Wave of Lethargy -- 1 blood > >So we agree qui is expensive. Yet all those cards cost a mere one blood... Are you incapable of reading? I never claimed that Quietus cards were expensive. I pointed out that Quietus is a blood-intensive discipline, which is entirely different. It is perfectly possible to build a deck that relies solely on Flash/Taste of Death and has no Taste, no nothing. That's because the card only costs 1 blood and has a strong effect. However, typically people tend to play Flash, Blood Sweat, and then try to Blur for another Blood Sweat and a Taste of Death. FOUR blood is definitely expensive. Contrast with Thaumaturgy, which can play Theft, Blur, Theft, Theft and come out of things 5 blood up. >> "Costs blood" does not automatically equal "expensive". > >> The fun? Winning, of course. Not "I get Thadius Zho out". This is a >> card game, not an RPG. > >It is a card **GAME**, not a card competition... The purpose of a game is to win. If not all people are attempting to win, the game is pointless. A number of groups have attempted to have "let's play 'fun' decks this game" types of rules, relying on social pressure to restrict the quality of the decks. A number of groups have found that this leads to MORE arguments than before, because everyone's definition of 'fun' is different. Unless you stay with 'fun = winning', you are just asking for hurt feelings and pissed off people somewhere down the line. >> >Also, the number of vampires with THA has nothing to do with the number >of >> >THA decks that are mostly Tremere. I see some Assamite/Tremere around for >> >> The number of decks is not what you asked about, though. Moving target >> defense. > >Misinterpretation on my part. I thought you were referring to decks. Now at >least admit most decks that have Tha combat have at least some Camarilla >Tremere in them. Putting one Tremere in the crypt is not a good reason to put the Ankara Citadel in your deck. Putting four Tremere in the crypt isn't, either. The Ankara Citadel belongs only in decks that are mostly Tremere. By this I mean at least 7 Tremere, and at least two distinct Tremere that could easily be the "primary" vamp for your deck. >> Of course I'm not. Most THA decks are a mix of Tremere/!Tremere, and >> occasionally some others thrown in for flavor. >> This is irrelevant to whether or not every THA-based deck should include >> Ankara Citadel, which is what you originally asked. Again, the moving >> target defense. > >I didn't say every THA based deck. I just mentioned that if you play Shotgun >and BtW (aka not only Apportation/Theft) you'll probably play Ankara too. >Never did I say every THA combat deck should have Ankara and the whole >crapload. "Plus, Tha cards tend to be expensive no matter what (exceptions are there obviously) so Ankara is never a bad choice." What does the word "never" mean to you? [ quoted text not captured ]

> Why are you getting hit for 1 in return? Don't you have maneuvers? > This IS a ranged strike, you know. So you pay one and deal two, net gain is 1. Oh, and it circumvents Fort. How many decks do you see that have no ranged options whatsoever. Quite likely more than I do. > >> >Blood Fury costs 1 > >Pay 1, deal 3 and negate weapons or a round plus you get around Fort.. Good > >card, but close range, so it all of a sudden is Pay 1, deal 3, receive *at > >least* one. 3-2. Not really a good bargain again for a combat deck. > > Blood Fury is more complicated to use than the other cards. However, > its stackability with strength increasers means that a Depraved THA > minion is now striking for 4. Stack POT on with it, and big > unpreventable POT strikes start to happen. The fact that it's a STR based strike is a good plus, BUT you'll have to find a way to increase strength. Hence the increased popularity of tha/pot. How is this different than finding a way of getting those "crap" cards to work? > Blood Fury is a decent discouragement against weenie POT Rush. "Fine, > you IG me? I hit you back for 3 while you hit me for 7. How do you > like them apples, Koko?" Oh wow, that did help a lot. I get hit for 7, I hit someone for 3. Yeah that's what I want to happen. I personally rather stick with being at long range and thereby prevent all the close range crap that's potence and melee weapons. > Cauldron of Blood is a shit card. Yeah yeah I know it by now ok... Let's just drop it. > >I suppose it is. Again I refer to how I (we) used to play it (incorrectly, > >but we still did) > > How does how you USED to play it have any bearing on whether or not the > card is appropriate to include in a deck? Because you USED to be able to burn vamps with it that were under 5 blood? That makes it a WHOLE different card. > You make a number of incorrect assumptions here. Which are? If you can have fun (or in this case, can win) with a deck full of (the same) good cards, fine. *I* fail to see the fun in that. Does that matter? Hell no, please go ahead. > Choosing to put good cards in my deck does not prevent me from having a > fun, versatile deck that I can play anywhere and have fun. On the > contrary, it allows me to have a deck that can sit in front of weenie > DOM bleed, in front of POT Rush, in front of Ventrue vote, and still > have a good chance of winning, or at least playing the game... INSTEAD > of being completely hosed at the start. Well, maybe that's because you're playing in far more competitive surroundings than I do. <snip huge part> Point taken. I don't agree with all of it, but I can understand your zealeousness (is this a word?) now. > The strikes themselves are superior. The setup for those strikes is > much more difficult, because the two most common strikes are > long-range-only. If someone can maneuver back to close, you can't even > PLAY the strike, and your hand jams up terribly, unlike Theft of Vitae, > which is playable at close or long. Well nothing beats Celerity Maneuvers. The above holds true for almost every good card in the game. It requires some setup. Moving to long range isn't exactly the toughest of them. Heck, if you're really desparate you can play with tha Assamites and Magic up a Goggles... > When you created the cutter in the first place, are you still allowed to > eat the cookies that you bake with it? > You would be surprised at the decks I play, I suspect. I probably will. I do however think a deck with 15 each of the good cards is cookie cutter. How many Pot decks Don't have 12 or so Torn Signpost/IG in them? I think none. How many Tha decks play without 10-12 Thefts? Also none. "Aaaw another Weenie pot deck, prepare for the IG/TS" "Don't worry I'll have my fort vote deck play KRC on him 15 times" "No fucking way, I'm gonna block your loser Ventrue and suck 'em dry with my Thefts" Yah, surprising. I *love* reading how some wacky theme deck won a tournie somewhere instead of yet another <add random standard deck>. > Are you incapable of reading? Yes. I'm 4 years old and haven't yet learned how to read. That's why I even bother replying to all your pointless flaming. >I never claimed that Quietus cards were > expensive. I pointed out that Quietus is a blood-intensive discipline, > which is entirely different. As did I. The point? > "Plus, Tha cards tend to be expensive no matter what (exceptions are > there obviously) so Ankara is never a bad choice." So the phrase "is never a bad choice" equals "you must use". Great. So far the "discussion" as this seems more like a one-sided flame to me. Let me tell you something. I'm by no means an expert on this game. I have owned the cards for like 8 years or so (late '95 I think), played around with them a bit, dropped the whole thing and got back into playing when AH and FN came out. Dropped it again and picked it up some 5 months ago. So, no, I'm not extremely experienced and you probably know a whole lot more than me. *BUT* I come in here to share thoughts, learn new stuff and as such make mistakes along the way. There are people in here that know I make a mistake (or a misinterpretation) and gently point it out. "You can't do such and such, because". I'm heavily experimenting with a few clans and disciplines and Tremere is one of them. And I'm doing quite good in MY gaming environment so why shouldn't I share it. Maybe it is "incorrect" or underpowered. Maybe I should find more competition, but that's not of any importance. I appreciate a lot of people here for their clarifications or corrections and I respect their opinions. What I /really/ do not appreciate, is the "stfu n00b" attitude you display when you come jumping down on me how stupid I am, misquoting and misreading my arguments, picking on a little exaggeration (sp?) and constantly going over the same stupid details or wrong wording on my part. *That* isn't really helping me and if you want me to understand why things are as *you* have found them to be, or want me to have a mature conversation with you, you will have to cut the attitude a bit. I'm talking from my personal experience and things I write are still an opinion, just like stuff you write is. I respect you opinion, you'll have to respect mine. For now, let's just drop this pointless argument as we're argueing over different things anyway and let's restart from scratch ok?

In message <a524gvspuom5l3md6...@4ax.com>, Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> writes: >Cauldron of Blud I read that as "Cauldron of Crud". [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <bdt7oq$b2k$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>, Phoenix <izaak.h...@o2.nl> writes: >> Why are you getting hit for 1 in return? Don't you have maneuvers? >> This IS a ranged strike, you know. > >So you pay one and deal two, net gain is 1. Oh, and it circumvents Fort. >How many decks do you see that have no ranged options whatsoever. Quite >likely more than I do. And stops weapon damage. Quite a number of those ranged options are guns, in many circles. [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:vg3uhcs...@corp.supernews.com... [ quoted text not captured ] General Protection Fault 09987K. Analogy has lost all communication with Root Event. Please restart now... DaveZ Atom Weaver

"Derek Ray" <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:a524gvspuom5l3md6...@4ax.com... > Broken down for you in words of two syllables: > > Cauldron of Blood is a shit card. > > Shit cards should not be put in your deck. > > Cauldron of Blud is therefore not a good reason to use Ankara Citadel. Your whole argument can be thrown out, Derek, by the fact that Ankara _and_ Citadel both have three syllables each. You therefore obviously don't know what you are talking about, so I'm snipping the rest of your thread without reading it. :P DaveZ Buy my VTES Cards, Feed my Daughter...

In message <bdt7oq$b2k$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>, "Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> mumbled something about: >> Why are you getting hit for 1 in return? Don't you have maneuvers? >> This IS a ranged strike, you know. > >So you pay one and deal two, net gain is 1. Oh, and it circumvents Fort. >How many decks do you see that have no ranged options whatsoever. Quite >likely more than I do. Net gain compared to Theft: -3, -more if they have a ranged strike. I see TONS of ranged decks. That's why I'm always very concerned about what's hitting me back. Theft helps me out -- someone plinking me for 2 with a Sniper Rifle, for example, doesn't go anywhere. >> Blood Fury is more complicated to use than the other cards. However, >> its stackability with strength increasers means that a Depraved THA >> minion is now striking for 4. Stack POT on with it, and big >> unpreventable POT strikes start to happen. > >The fact that it's a STR based strike is a good plus, BUT you'll have to >find a way to increase strength. Hence the increased popularity of tha/pot. >How is this different than finding a way of getting those "crap" cards to >work? Because there are a number of vamps with THA/POT already, a piece of equipment that gives THA, two pieces of equipment that give POT, a Master card that gives any discipline to !Tremere, a Master card that increases strength by 1, a vampire who gets 1 extra damage on THA strikes, a retainer that allows you to play cards outside your discipline, etc. And because grafting POT onto Blood Fury allows you to play Immortal Grapple, ensuring that someone does NOT Dodge or S:CE against your strike, causing you to waste blood. There's no way to play IG on an Eldritch Glimmer or a Drain Essence. I don't like paying blood for cards that people can negate with super-common defenses. I like the QUI cards because I can strike-hands for 1 at long, and then Blur with the blood-cost cards when they have to come up with something uncommon to get away. >> Blood Fury is a decent discouragement against weenie POT Rush. "Fine, >> you IG me? I hit you back for 3 while you hit me for 7. How do you >> like them apples, Koko?" > >Oh wow, that did help a lot. I get hit for 7, I hit someone for 3. Yeah >that's what I want to happen. I personally rather stick with being at long >range and thereby prevent all the close range crap that's potence and melee >weapons. Great. What do you do when they maneuver back to close? How's Storm Sewers looking these days? Assuming that you'll be at long range every single combat may be just a touch of overconfidence. Of course it's not what you want to happen. But it beats the hell out of just sitting there and taking it. >> >I suppose it is. Again I refer to how I (we) used to play it >(incorrectly, >> >but we still did) >> >> How does how you USED to play it have any bearing on whether or not the >> card is appropriate to include in a deck? > >Because you USED to be able to burn vamps with it that were under 5 blood? >That makes it a WHOLE different card. No, you never USED to be able to do that, actually. It's one thing to not know that something doesn't work the way you want it to. That happens. But it's an entirely different thing to keep wandering down the same train of thought without going back and rethinking things once the assumptions you were under has changed. >> Choosing to put good cards in my deck does not prevent me from having a >> fun, versatile deck that I can play anywhere and have fun. On the >> contrary, it allows me to have a deck that can sit in front of weenie >> DOM bleed, in front of POT Rush, in front of Ventrue vote, and still >> have a good chance of winning, or at least playing the game... INSTEAD >> of being completely hosed at the start. > >Well, maybe that's because you're playing in far more competitive >surroundings than I do. That is the impression I am getting, yes. Understand that when people give advice here, it is no good for us to try to guess what your metagame is. We don't know. We haven't the slightest idea if you play with world-class players we just don't know about, or if you play with the guy who always plays his Toreador-with-Thaumaturgy deck, where he puts THA skill cards on everyone and plays a lot of Bum's Rush and Theft and Blur. Can it work? Sure. Is it likely to? Not really. As a result, we have to produce some sort of objective gauge of what is and isn't "good". To that end, we have to assess cards based on cost/effect ratio, and how easy it is to avoid that particular effect. Cards like Eldritch Glimmer have a huge opportunity cost, huge cost and huge effect. But the effect can be avoided with a number of cheap, commonly seen cards that all have little opportunity cost themselves... and so it ends up being a lot of effort for nothing at all most times. >> The strikes themselves are superior. The setup for those strikes is >> much more difficult, because the two most common strikes are >> long-range-only. If someone can maneuver back to close, you can't even >> PLAY the strike, and your hand jams up terribly, unlike Theft of Vitae, >> which is playable at close or long. > >Well nothing beats Celerity Maneuvers. The above holds true for almost every Except Celerity itself, Quick Meld, and Drawing out the Beast. And a few of the other set-range cards. The biggest flaw in assuming long range is that you have to have at least one maneuver every single combat, or your cards aren't even playable and jam your hand. Decks which are trying to run back to close, on the other hand, can get away with fewer maneuvers because they simply have to have "counter-maneuvers", instead of active running. Typically this means you must shovel a gazillion Flash and Pursuit into your deck when playing the Assamites, and sometimes you STILL end up not having it in hand. >good card in the game. It requires some setup. Moving to long range isn't >exactly the toughest of them. Heck, if you're really desparate you can play >with tha Assamites and Magic up a Goggles... It requires a lot more setup than Immortal Grapple, for example. >> When you created the cutter in the first place, are you still allowed to >> eat the cookies that you bake with it? >> You would be surprised at the decks I play, I suspect. > >I probably will. I do however think a deck with 15 each of the good cards is >cookie cutter. How many Pot decks Don't have 12 or so Torn Signpost/IG in >them? I think none. You are wrong. Very few POT decks pack that many. >How many Tha decks play without 10-12 Thefts? Also none. You are again wrong. Some use Burst/prevention. Some use Blood Fury. Some play Magic of the Smith and get guns. Some even use (puke) Wind Dance. >"Aaaw another Weenie pot deck, prepare for the IG/TS" "Don't worry I'll have >my fort vote deck play KRC on him 15 times" "No fucking way, I'm gonna block >your loser Ventrue and suck 'em dry with my Thefts" I haven't played a game like that since... 2000? Long time ago. >Yah, surprising. I *love* reading how some wacky theme deck won a tournie >somewhere instead of yet another <add random standard deck>. I can't remember the last time anything I'd consider "standard" won a tournament. I also cannot think of the last time I saw some wacky theme deck win, either. Most of the decks I see win have an effective core, and then an individual style wrapped around it. Again, using good cards isn't cookie-cutter. It's winning. >So far the "discussion" as this seems more like a one-sided flame to me. >I come in here to share thoughts, learn new stuff and as such make mistakes Oh, good! Because over here, it sounded just like you were certain that you knew everything there was to know about the game, and all the rest of us just obviously weren't trying and were instead playing our cookie-cutter decks over and over again with no imagination or originality. Golly, I'm so glad to hear that you actually want to learn new things. >along the way. There are people in here that know I make a mistake (or a >misinterpretation) and gently point it out. "You can't do such and such, My goodness, let's see what I said! Naughty me. "First, it's not a legal play: Blood to Water isn't a strike. Second, even if it were legal, burn 4 blood to burn 5 blood? That isn't a very good trade for a combat deck, frankly... especially when it doesn't even send them to torpor." Hmmm. That seemed pretty gentle, really. Should I have begged your apologies first because I was presuming to correct you? Sorry, kid, it's not gonna happen. I won't quote the second message, but I will provide the message-ID for anyone who feels like finding it themselves on Google: <jlv1gvo9sd78o26mn...@4ax.com>. I don't see where I was being rude in that one either, honestly... I stated the facts and was done with it. I'm sorry, but I don't have time to read your mind and figure out that you aren't playing with current card text. Nor do I really have time to waste being over-apologetic towards people to no point -- not to mention that it's insulting if you ARE aware of current card text and are just following a train of thought I hadn't spotted yet. >because". I'm heavily experimenting with a few clans and disciplines and >Tremere is one of them. And I'm doing quite good in MY gaming environment so >why shouldn't I share it. Maybe it is "incorrect" or underpowered. Maybe I Share it all you like. Expect that others will share experiences that may well be contradictory to your own. Also, as above, understand that what happens in your gaming environment is not going to be what happens in anyone else's gaming environment, much like what happens in MINE is not going to be what happens in anyone else's. >misquoting and misreading my arguments, picking on a little exaggeration >(sp?) and constantly going over the same stupid details or wrong wording on >my part. Well, let's see. Exaggeration doesn't help a reasoned debate at all; it simply distorts the issue. Details and wording are critical in a medium which does not lend itself well to conversation. I could go on if you like. >*That* isn't really helping me and if you want me to understand why things >are as *you* have found them to be, or want me to have a mature conversation >with you, you will have to cut the attitude a bit. I'm talking from my Riiiiiiiiiiiiiight. >personal experience and things I write are still an opinion, just like stuff >you write is. I respect you opinion, you'll have to respect mine. Well, no. I don't HAVE to respect yours, actually. I have to read it, and understand it, but really, failing to respect an opinion just isn't even remotely the same as failing to respect the person. I think a lot of people have trouble realizing that. Respecting opinions too much is a bad thing. It leads to a lot of mutual back-patting and very little actual discussion. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Derek Ray wrote: > Also, as above, understand that > what happens in your gaming environment is not going to be what happens > in anyone else's gaming environment, much like what happens in MINE is > not going to be what happens in anyone else's. Hey, that isn't true... we get all hammered and stuff when we play and you guys do, too. David Cherryholmes Duke Radiology P.E.T. Facility (919) 684-7714 david.che...@duke.edu

On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 23:58:17 -0400, David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> scrawled: >On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Derek Ray wrote: > >> Also, as above, understand that >> what happens in your gaming environment is not going to be what happens >> in anyone else's gaming environment, much like what happens in MINE is >> not going to be what happens in anyone else's. > >Hey, that isn't true... we get all hammered and stuff when we play and you >guys do, too. it's funny....there are really, i guess, two core groups here in canberra. the guys down south combine vtes and alcohol (often with amusing results), whereas us northerners tend to play sober. and when us northies head south to play with the drunks, and stay sober while playing, and lose anyway....well, that's just embarassing. i blame my grand-prey. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:05:30 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> scrawled: >I agree about Cauldron of Blood, though. hmmm....Ecstatic agony and cauldron of blood. is that starting to be less crap, or am i just combining two crap cards to get a really crap combo? (one thing i did notice just recently is that a vampire can have more than one ecstatic agony.....yum) >I tend to find most of Xian's playstyle with the Tremere more >convincing, than trying to use them as combat wombats, though. bleed like hell and steal all their blood if they block? > As with >all decks with a combat element, a few nice surprises is always good - >which is where I think Shotgun Ritual isn't *that* bad. I wouldn't rely >on it, and it'd be nicer/less painful if I had an Ankara Citadel out >(for Govern, Conditioning, Perfect Clarity and so on), but even the >threat of a well-timed Shotgun Ritual/Walk of Flame wouldn't be >altogether unwelcome. The Tremere tend to lack good first round shocks, >which most other people have: Burning Wrath, Claws, Breath of the >Dragon/Vic Claws, Taste of Death and so on. Even a gun deck can play a >Dragon Breath Rounds if it really wants to go to town. Burst of sunlight.....assuming you've grafted for and/or Fire Dance int there somewhere. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <nqu4gvceutq440ho3...@4ax.com>, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes: >On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:05:30 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> >scrawled: > >>I agree about Cauldron of Blood, though. > >hmmm....Ecstatic agony and cauldron of blood. is that starting to be >less crap, or am i just combining two crap cards to get a really crap >combo? > >(one thing i did notice just recently is that a vampire can have more >than one ecstatic agony.....yum) 'Tis true. And the Tremere do have Rutor's Hand if you're looking to be able to 'pay' for the actions without having access to much Freak Drive. However, against a non-combat deck, you'll find yourself with 1 damage being inflicted. Potentially none, if you go to long range in the first round. And against a combat deck, they'll try to annihilate you in the first round. It's only the decks with minor fight-back that it might prove to be useful for, and I'm not sure it's worth it. >>I tend to find most of Xian's playstyle with the Tremere more >>convincing, than trying to use them as combat wombats, though. > >bleed like hell and steal all their blood if they block? Not necessarily steal - some of the other combat cards might be useful to you, depending on what you choose to do. But using it as a lot more bruise, rather than outright combat. The first round combat can be good, without being superlative, so using it as bruise and bleed isn't impossible. Or some intercept/bruise (rather than intercept/death). But I tend to think that second round Tremere combat is too expensive. Not that the cards themselves are - I think Walk of Flame is a good card, for instance, and new Drain Essence looks interesting. But the cost of going to the second round is rather high, especially when you end up against pro-combat decks. A few copies, probably, but I tend to think that for 'proper' combat, it's too expensive relative to other combat decks, and that if you're playing it more casually, it needs a few too many card slots for my liking. [Me complaining about lack of surprises] >Burst of sunlight.....assuming you've grafted for and/or Fire Dance >int there somewhere. Yeah, it's not bad. But if you have a Fire Dance out, it's not so much of a surprise. *But* having Fire Dance does make a good threat, even if it's one you can't back up. Everyone has to think "What if he has....?" *ponders* [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <Pine.GSO.4.21.030701...@petsparc.duhs.duke.edu>, David Cherryholmes <david.che...@duke.edu> mumbled something about: >On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, Derek Ray wrote: > >> Also, as above, understand that >> what happens in your gaming environment is not going to be what happens >> in anyone else's gaming environment, much like what happens in MINE is >> not going to be what happens in anyone else's. > >Hey, that isn't true... we get all hammered and stuff when we play and you >guys do, too. lol. OK, I amend my statement. Excluding the beer.... [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 02 Jul 2003 16:30:22 +1000, salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote: >On Tue, 1 Jul 2003 20:05:30 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> >scrawled: >>I tend to find most of Xian's playstyle with the Tremere more >>convincing, than trying to use them as combat wombats, though. Thanks, James. *mwah* >bleed like hell and steal all their blood if they block? Pretty much. :) Revelations to get rid of AI. Derek (well, and others) can attest that I've been trying new stuff recently, not just mega-bleed. I *have* been tempted to play Perfect Clarity/Nose of the Hound rush, too. Heh. It's probably not a good idea, but it sounds funny. Xian may respond to more of this thread later.

"Phoenix" <izaak.h...@o2.nl> wrote in message news:<bdt7oq$b2k$1...@reader11.wxs.nl>... I'm jumping into this rather late, I realize, but just thought I'd mention a few things. [Soul Burn? inclusion of context helps] > > Why are you getting hit for 1 in return? Don't you have maneuvers? > > This IS a ranged strike, you know. > > So you pay one and deal two, net gain is 1. Oh, and it circumvents Fort. > How many decks do you see that have no ranged options whatsoever. Quite > likely more than I do. Of course, if their ranged option is a weapon, you don't get hit for anything there either. Additionally, if you're going to be using the damage-dealing strikes from THA, it helps to include Taste of Vitae, much as with a real combat deck. [Blood Fury] > The fact that it's a STR based strike is a good plus, BUT you'll have to > find a way to increase strength. Hence the increased popularity of tha/pot. > How is this different than finding a way of getting those "crap" cards to > work? Because it's a combo that requires very little setup. Plenty of vampires have tha/pot, and since the disciplines provide complementary effects, it's not hard to use them together. Unlike, say, trying to get Drain Essence to work well, where you have to find a way to survive the first round of combat, then get to the second round, and *then* make sure that the opposing minion doesn't simply dodge, S:CE, or Immortal Grapple you. It can be done with Thoughts Betrayed and plenty of Apportation, but at this point you've spent a whole lot of blood (barring Ankara on one, count 'em, one, of your vampires) to get a pretty sucky combo off. Realistically, playing Theft in two successive rounds of combat is a lot easier to set up, and you don't feel as foolish if all doesn't go as planned. [Blood Fury vs. weenie potence] > Oh wow, that did help a lot. I get hit for 7, I hit someone for 3. Yeah > that's what I want to happen. Obviously, that's not what you *want* to happen, but it may discourage a weenie potence deck from rushing you a *lot*. > I personally rather stick with being at long range and thereby prevent > all the close range crap that's potence and melee weapons. Assuming you have enough maneuvers to get to long range against the deck. Note also, that Blood Fury will negate the melee weapons. [Blood to Water] > Because you USED to be able to burn vamps with it that were under 5 blood? > That makes it a WHOLE different card. Incorrect. Well, yeah, it is a different card if *read* that way, but it has never been intended to be used that way, not even when the card was very first printed. See http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=4r8i2l%242ta%40redwood.cs.sc.edu&oe=UTF-8 for an early clarification on it. > Well nothing beats Celerity Maneuvers. Protean maneuvers? Drawing out the Beast? Shadow Step? Cailean? :) > I probably will. I do however think a deck with 15 each of the good > cards is cookie cutter. Do you now, or have you ever played with a card limit? Auto-including X "good" cards does not make deck Y good. > How many Pot decks Don't have 12 or so Torn Signpost/IG in them? > I think none. Depends on your definition of a potence deck, I'm sure. I've seen a number of weenie rush decks that don't have that many, but the "industry-standard" Nosferatu Hate You Mk. [whatever number Peter is up to now] has something like 10 or 12 of each. > How many Tha decks play without 10-12 Thefts? Also none. Incorrect. To start with, from the Tournament Winning Deck Archive, 9 of the 18 winning Tremere decks do not include many Thefts. Additionally, there are about 3 or 4 that inlude between 7-9 Thefts, but I didn't count those above, to give you the benefit. The !Tremere decks include only one with Theft of Vitae, having 9 copies, but still, that's 2/3s that do not include *any* Theft of Vitae. (Granted, one is a Goratrix deck, which can do just fine without Theft, but still.) And this is only the highly successful, reported decks. I'm quite sure there are a lot of suckier THA-using decks out there that don't have 10 or 12 Theft of Vitae. > So far the "discussion" as this seems more like a one-sided flame to me. Well, you were in a "conversation" with Derek. (HI DEREK!) > Let me tell you something. I'm by no means an expert on this game. I have > owned the cards for like 8 years or so (late '95 I think), played around > with them a bit, dropped the whole thing and got back into playing when AH > and FN came out. Dropped it again and picked it up some 5 months ago. So, > no, I'm not extremely experienced and you probably know a whole lot more > than me. Okay. So maybe it would be a good idea to stop freaking out about cards (Blood to Water, etc.) that you can't have played with *that* much, and haven't had a chance to evaluate as thoroughly as others might have. > I come in here to share thoughts, learn new stuff and as such make mistakes > along the way. Right, as has most of us. > There are people in here that know I make a mistake (or a > misinterpretation) and gently point it out. "You can't do such and such, > because". Yup, and Derek is not one of them. I don't suppose you lurked on the newsgroup for a little while instead of diving right in? Or checked out The FAQ - http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_faq.htm FOCS - http://www.thelasombra.com/vtes_focs.htm Aaron's V:tES Electronic Survival Guide - http://www.nosferatustuff.com/vtes/survival_guide.htm or the Who's Who - http://www.thelasombra.com/WhosWho/index.htm ? > I'm heavily experimenting with a few clans and disciplines and > Tremere is one of them. And I'm doing quite good in MY gaming environment so > why shouldn't I share it. Honest question: can you explain why you're doing well with the Tremere in your environment? Generally, the Tremere are expected to be pretty sucky, so when someone reports that they're doing well with them, it's interesting to hear why. Xian

> Well, that's the whole list. Feel free to add and modify. > > Phoenix > -- Well uh what about Deck destruction: get victory points by "Brinkman ship", when you force your pray to withdraw and make it fail. Its probebly a subtype of the bloatdeck, but you win in another way. Oortje

> General Protection Fault 09987K. Analogy has communication with > Root Event. Please restart now... lol, how true. How is the "Great White North" treating you/ :) -- Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swampall

> Point taken. I don't agree with all of it, but I can understand your > zealeousness (is this a word?) now. It is spelled zealousness. BTW, thank for the invocation as being stuck in that bottle really sucks. :) > > The strikes themselves are superior. The setup for those strikes is > > much more difficult, because the two most common strikes are > > long-range-only. If someone can maneuver back to close, you can't even > > PLAY the strike, and your hand jams up terribly, unlike Theft of Vitae, > > which is playable at close or long. > > Well nothing beats Celerity Maneuvers. The above holds true for almost every > good card in the game. It requires some setup. Moving to long range isn't > exactly the toughest of them. Heck, if you're really desparate you can play > with tha Assamites and Magic up a Goggles... <Buzzer> WRONG! Quick Meld, a protean card, beats celerity manuevers every day. Quick Meld is the best maneuver card in the game. > > When you created the cutter in the first place, are you still allowed to > > eat the cookies that you bake with it? > > You would be surprised at the decks I play, I suspect. > > I probably will. I do however think a deck with 15 each of the good cards is > cookie cutter. How many Pot decks Don't have 12 or so Torn Signpost/IG in > them? I think none. How many Tha decks play without 10-12 Thefts? Also none. > "Aaaw another Weenie pot deck, prepare for the IG/TS" "Don't worry I'll have > my fort vote deck play KRC on him 15 times" "No fucking way, I'm gonna block > your loser Ventrue and suck 'em dry with my Thefts" > Yah, surprising. I *love* reading how some wacky theme deck won a tournie > somewhere instead of yet another <add random standard deck>. Cookie cutters are generally successful decks that inspire duplication, not decks with 15 of one card (see Ventrue Law Firm, Malk S+B, etc...). VTES in general relies on combinations of cards. With 15 each of the good cards that only leaves you room for six groups different cards if you leave out the master cards, which is silly so lets say 5 different cards. > > Are you incapable of reading? > > Yes. I'm 4 years old and haven't yet learned how to read. That's why I even > bother replying to all your pointless flaming. You type well for a four-year old, who taught you how to type, and you play VTES at four. That has to be a record. > >I never claimed that Quietus cards were > > expensive. I pointed out that Quietus is a blood-intensive discipline, > > which is entirely different. > > As did I. The point? Apples and Oranges, maybe.... > > "Plus, Tha cards tend to be expensive no matter what (exceptions are > > there obviously) so Ankara is never a bad choice." > > So the phrase "is never a bad choice" equals "you must use". Great. > > So far the "discussion" as this seems more like a one-sided flame to me. > > Let me tell you something. I'm by no means an expert on this game. I have > owned the cards for like 8 years or so (late '95 I think), played around > with them a bit, dropped the whole thing and got back into playing when AH > and FN came out. Dropped it again and picked it up some 5 months ago. So, > no, I'm not extremely experienced and you probably know a whole lot more > than me. Wow you owned the cards for 8 years but you are only 4 years old. Are you not telling us something? You sound pretty experienced for a 4 year old. > *BUT* > > I come in here to share thoughts, learn new stuff and as such make mistakes > along the way. There are people in here that know I make a mistake (or a > misinterpretation) and gently point it out. "You can't do such and such, > because". I'm heavily experimenting with a few clans and disciplines and > Tremere is one of them. And I'm doing quite good in MY gaming environment so > why shouldn't I share it. Maybe it is "incorrect" or underpowered. Maybe I > should find more competition, but that's not of any importance. I > appreciate a lot of people here for their clarifications or corrections and > I respect their opinions. What I /really/ do not appreciate, is the "stfu > n00b" attitude you display when you come jumping down on me how stupid I am, > misquoting and misreading my arguments, picking on a little exaggeration > (sp?) and constantly going over the same stupid details or wrong wording on > my part. You do invite this kind of behavior. Exaggeration is for the locker-room and the fishing lodge, not the usenet. > *That* isn't really helping me and if you want me to understand why things > are as *you* have found them to be, or want me to have a mature conversation > with you, you will have to cut the attitude a bit. I'm talking from my > personal experience and things I write are still an opinion, just like stuff > you write is. I respect you opinion, you'll have to respect mine. > > For now, let's just drop this pointless argument as we're argueing over > different things anyway and let's restart from scratch ok? Oh, I was just about to join in..... [ quoted text not captured ]

XZealot wrote: >>Point taken. I don't agree with all of it, but I can understand your >>zealeousness (is this a word?) now. > > It is spelled zealousness. Or just use "zeal" and save some typing. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

"XZealot" <x_ze...@cox-internet.com> wrote in message news:vg8b72f...@corp.supernews.com... > > > General Protection Fault 09987K. Analogy has > communication with > > Root Event. Please restart now... > > lol, how true. How is the "Great White North" treating you/ :) > I've enjoyed a full week of sunny skies, and 75-85 degree weather, thank you very much :-) my dance card: Thurday Night: VTES in Meriden CT Friday: 4th of July with family 7/5: VTES Boston 7/8 VTES Worcester 7/12 VTES Boston tourney 7/13 VTES Wooster tourney things are good... DaveZ Atom Weaver

On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, R. David Zopf wrote: > 7/5: VTES Boston > 7/8 VTES Worcester > 7/12 VTES Boston tourney > 7/13 VTES Wooster tourney Enjoying some decent population density, are we? BTW, I haven't gotten around to opening your attachments because I haven't gotten around to getting them on a Windoze box, yet. I will soon, though. [ quoted text not captured ]

<snip> > <Buzzer> WRONG! Quick Meld, a protean card, beats celerity manuevers > every day. Quick Meld is the best maneuver card in the game. Yeppers. He's right... Protean really needs it too though. > Cookie cutters are generally successful decks that inspire duplication, not > decks with 15 of one card (see Ventrue Law Firm, Malk S+B, etc...). VTES in > general relies on combinations of cards. With 15 each of the good cards > that only leaves you room for six groups different cards if you leave out > the master cards, which is silly so lets say 5 different cards. Perfectly possible to make a deck with 15 of 5 different cards no? Boring as hell and far too predictable to be competitive, but possible, I suppose.. How 'bout 15 Signpost 15 Grapple 15 Undead Strength 15 Legal manip 15 assorted cards (say a few disarm, a bunch of wakes and maybe a Bangh-Nak or two?) 15 Masters I'd probably work. Play like 10 Haven Uncovered as master.... yuk > > > Are you incapable of reading? > > > > Yes. I'm 4 years old and haven't yet learned how to read. That's why I > even > > bother replying to all your pointless flaming. > > You type well for a four-year old, who taught you how to type, and you play > VTES at four. That has to be a record. Maybe he was born on February the 29th. You know, thingie-day (what ya call in in English?) > Wow you owned the cards for 8 years but you are only 4 years old. Are you > not telling us something? You sound pretty experienced for a 4 year old. Thingie-day, for sure. > You do invite this kind of behavior. Exaggeration is for the locker-room > and the fishing lodge, not the usenet. ;-) Exaggaration is also used to stress a certain point, or to illustrate a supspected fact. It's actually a pretty commom discussion technique, so usenet is a perfect place to use it. Though 90% is a tad bit over the top, it is somewhat true that most Tha decks sport at least some Camarilla Tremere. > Oh, I was just about to join in..... Heh. I've been following this thread for a while and I was thinking the same thing. There was some useful stuff in it, though so my time wasn't spent for nothing. It all started pretty friendly, but people are pretty good at misreading each other and creating a pretty pointless discussion. So props from me to Phoenix and Derek Ray for this entertaining thread. Leave each other alone from now on (hmm, well maybe don't and I might have another laugh over it).

salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes: > hmmm....Ecstatic agony and cauldron of blood. is that starting to be > less crap, or am i just combining two crap cards to get a really crap > combo? The problem I have with Ecstatic Agony is that it's screwed by combat ends AND dodge AND maneuver away AND brutal hit back. What else is there? "Do what you please. I prevent all and slap your wrist for one." - In that case, your Cauldron will be Skin of Steeled. "I've run out of combat cards, so I hit you for one and pray." - In that case, you've already won, Ecstatic Agony or not. "All my minions have Saturday Night Specials or Zip Guns." - Congratulations! Your combo works. But - how often *do* you see that kind of combat defense? -- hg@ | Anybody who still believes in the media iki | must have been in a coma for the past 30 years. .fi | -Robert Anton Wilson