In regards to the 'untap all your cards in the untap phase' (whether
they were tapped or not) ruling, I need a clarification.
Charnas and other cards that trigger when a card or minion untaps will
trigger then during the untap phase, regardless of whether they were
tapped or not, correct?
Just curious if there was some more arcane rules skullduggery to avoid
this or not.
T
Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:
>
> In regards to the 'untap all your cards in the untap phase' (whether
> they were tapped or not) ruling, I need a clarification.
>
> Charnas and other cards that trigger when a card or minion untaps will
> trigger then during the untap phase, regardless of whether they were
> tapped or not, correct?
No. They trigger when the minion is untapped - i.e., when the minion
changes from a tapped to an untapped state.
Apply an "untap this minion" to an untapped minion has no effect.
This ruling mas made (repeatedly) during the prior
'untap all your cards in the untap phase' clarification.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
On Mon, 06 May 2002 07:47:25 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:>>
>> In regards to the 'untap all your cards in the untap phase' (whether
>> they were tapped or not) ruling, I need a clarification.
>>
>> Charnas and other cards that trigger when a card or minion untaps will
>> trigger then during the untap phase, regardless of whether they were
>> tapped or not, correct?>
>No. They trigger when the minion is untapped - i.e., when the minion
>changes from a tapped to an untapped state.
>
>Apply an "untap this minion" to an untapped minion has no effect.
>
>This ruling mas made (repeatedly) during the prior
>'untap all your cards in the untap phase' clarification.
>
Well according to your ruling, ALL cards untap in the untap phase,
regardless of whether they were tapped or not.
Ah whatever why do i bother....
T
<Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com> wrote in message news:3cd95f14.188047472@news...
[ quoted text not captured ]
No. According to LSJ's ruling -- both in this message and in that previous
thread -- you APPLY the "untap this card" effect to all your cards at the
beginning of the untap phase, and APPLYING this effect to an ALREADY untapped
card has no effect.
Part of the test on Charnas says "The minion with this retainer takes 1 damage
each time he or she untaps". It does NOT say "The minion with this retainer
takes 1 damage each time the 'untap effect' is applied to him or her."
Your question is valid, but you're missing the distinction.
> Ah whatever why do i bother....
You bother because you want to become a better player, with a greater
understanding of the rules. This is a noble goal and you should definately
continue to "bother".
>
> T
Kevin M., Prince of Madison, WI (USA)
"Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles
you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War*
"Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier
kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEcharter.net writes:
>Part of the test on Charnas says "The minion with this retainer takes 1 damage
>each time he or she untaps". It does NOT say "The minion with this retainer
>takes 1 damage each time the 'untap effect' is applied to him or her."
True. But Riddle Phantastique doesn't talk about "untap effects" either.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
"CurtAdams" <curt...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20020507213629...@mb-mq.aol.com...
> kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEcharter.net writes:
>
> >Part of the test on Charnas says "The minion with this retainer takes 1
damage
> >each time he or she untaps". It does NOT say "The minion with this retainer
> >takes 1 damage each time the 'untap effect' is applied to him or her."
>
> True. But Riddle Phantastique doesn't talk about "untap effects" either.
And the LSJ-answer in that thread was "The riddle counter is removed instead of
applying the useless untap effect." So, Riddle Phantastique follows the same
logic.
Relevant card text:
"The minion with this card burns 1 riddle counter instead of untapping during
his or her untap phase. Burn this card when the last counter is removed. You
may not play this card if another Riddle Phantastique is in play."
>
> Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
> "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
Kevin M., Prince of Madison, WI (USA)
[ quoted text not captured ]
kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEcharter.net writes:
>> True. But Riddle Phantastique doesn't talk about "untap effects" either.>And the LSJ-answer in that thread was "The riddle counter is removed instead
of
>applying the useless untap effect." So, Riddle Phantastique follows the same
>logic.
No, different logic. Both cards refer to untapping, but they mean different
things by "untap". If RP followed the same logic as Charnas, since it doesn't
refer to "untap effects" it would also apply when the card twists, not when
the controller raps it at the beginning of his untap phase.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Wed, 08 May 2002 08:05:53 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
wrote:
>Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:>>
>> On Mon, 06 May 2002 07:47:25 -0400, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>> >Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:
>> >>
>> >> In regards to the 'untap all your cards in the untap phase' (whether
>> >> they were tapped or not) ruling, I need a clarification.
>> >>
>> >> Charnas and other cards that trigger when a card or minion untaps will
>> >> trigger then during the untap phase, regardless of whether they were
>> >> tapped or not, correct?
>> >
>> >No. They trigger when the minion is untapped - i.e., when the minion
>> >changes from a tapped to an untapped state.
>> >
>> >Apply an "untap this minion" to an untapped minion has no effect.
>> >
>> >This ruling mas made (repeatedly) during the prior
>> >'untap all your cards in the untap phase' clarification.
>> >
>>
>> Well according to your ruling, ALL cards untap in the untap phase,
>> regardless of whether they were tapped or not.>
>Right.
>
In which case that would trigger the 'if minion untaps' effects of
Charnas, etc.
IOW, you cant have it both ways LSJ (unless of course you and the RTR
just insist that is the case). If a card, tapped or not, untaps in
the untap phase, it has been untapped. There is no card effect to
'fizzle', this is a game mechanic. And simple english to boot.
By your reasoning that an untap effect applied to an untapped minion
fizzles, or has no effect, then in effect you DON'T untap all cards in
untap phase, as clearly only the tapped cards untap (barring other
effects in play).
Which is what the rules on untap phase say; "untap all your tapped
cards".
Funny that.
T
Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >Talo...@nospam.hotmail.com wrote:> >> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >> >Apply an "untap this minion" to an untapped minion has no effect.
> >> >
> >> >This ruling mas made (repeatedly) during the prior
> >> >'untap all your cards in the untap phase' clarification.
> >>
> >> Well according to your ruling, ALL cards untap in the untap phase,
> >> regardless of whether they were tapped or not.
> >
> >Right.
>
> In which case that would trigger the 'if minion untaps' effects of
> Charnas, etc.
No. As just stated (for the nth time, where n is unreasonably large),
applying "untap this minion" to an untapped minion has no effect.
See also (Curt Adams's ?) post explaining that the cards are using
"untap" to mean two different things, depending on context.
If the card says "untap X", it means "apply the untap effect to X (this
has no effect if X is already untapped)"
If the card says "when X untaps" it means "when X becomes untapped
(from a tapped state)"
> By your reasoning that an untap effect applied to an untapped minion
> fizzles, or has no effect, then in effect you DON'T untap all cards in
> untap phase, as clearly only the tapped cards untap (barring other
> effects in play).
?
If you move all your controlled vampires to torpor and any vampire
who is moved to torpor loses a blood, then the controlled vampires
who were already in torpor do not lose a blood - they didn't just
move there.
You seem to be missing the key distinction between "set Y to state X"
(with no effect if Y is already in state X) and "if Y changes to state
X".
> Which is what the rules on untap phase say; "untap all your tapped
> cards".
Well, at least you're making progress.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Kevin M." <kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEcharter.net> wrote in message
news:udherrj...@corp.supernews.com...
>
> "CurtAdams" <curt...@aol.com> wrote in message
> news:20020507213629...@mb-mq.aol.com...
> > kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEcharter.net writes:
> >
> > >Part of the test on Charnas says "The minion with this retainer takes 1
> damage
> > >each time he or she untaps". It does NOT say "The minion with this
retainer
> > >takes 1 damage each time the 'untap effect' is applied to him or her."
> >
> > True. But Riddle Phantastique doesn't talk about "untap effects" either.
>
> And the LSJ-answer in that thread was "The riddle counter is removed instead
of
> applying the useless untap effect." So, Riddle Phantastique follows the same
> logic.
>
Sure, that's what he *said*, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense.
Chris Berger wrote:
> "Kevin M." <kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEcharter.net> wrote in message> > And the LSJ-answer in that thread was "The riddle counter is removed instead
> of
> > applying the useless untap effect." So, Riddle Phantastique follows the same
> > logic.
> >
> Sure, that's what he *said*, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense.
Very productive post, there.
OK, it's been a while, so let's go through it again slowly:
It's confusing you because the term "untap" is being used in different
places to mean different things.
In some places it means "apply the untap effect". Let's call this "A".
In others it means "becomes untapped (from a tapped state)". This is "B".
Doing A to an untapped minion doesn't trigger things that trigger on B.
Does this make sense? Sure, if you think that the following make sense:
"Getting" the edge when you already have it doesn't trigger the Form of
Corruption (which only triggers if you get the Edge when you don't have it).
"Getting" the Rack via Disputed Territory when you've already got it
doesn't allow you to retarget it (which you can only do it you get control
of the Rack when you don't control it).
"Getting" untapped when you're already untapped doesn't trigger Charnas (which
only triggers if you untap when you're not untapped).
So, in sum, "when minion X untaps" means when minion X goes from a tapped to
an untapped state, whereas "untap minion X" means to apply the untap effect
to minion X (which will have no effect if minion X is already untapped).
[ quoted text not captured ]
(snip)
> > Which is what the rules on untap phase say; "untap all your tapped
> > cards".
>
> Well, at least you're making progress.
Rulings and Logic seems clear to me a card cannot untap if it isn't
tapped one requires the other, so in order to be able to untap the
card first needs to be tapped as per rulings.
As LSJ said in oreder to get X you must first have Y if you don't have
Y you're already in X.
I really don't see the entire problem or perhaps it's just me:P
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3CE3EBFD...@white-wolf.com...
> Chris Berger wrote:
> > "Kevin M." <kjme...@PLEASENOSPAMMEcharter.net> wrote in message
> > > And the LSJ-answer in that thread was "The riddle counter is removed
instead
> > of
> > > applying the useless untap effect." So, Riddle Phantastique follows the
same
> > > logic.
> > >
> > Sure, that's what he *said*, but that doesn't mean it makes any sense.
>
> Very productive post, there.
>
> OK, it's been a while, so let's go through it again slowly:
>
> It's confusing you because the term "untap" is being used in different
> places to mean different things.
>
It's no longer confusing me, in that I know what you mean. You're saying the
word untap twice and meaning different things by it in each case. Just because
I know what you mean doesn't mean that it makes sense.
That there can possibly be a time when you would *not* apply effects that
happen "when untapping" but when you *would* apply effects that happen "instead
of untapping" is nonsensical (assuming that only one effect is applied at a
time... it does, of course, make perfect sense to not apply a "when untapping"
effect if the untap has already been stopped by an "instead of untapping"
effect). I now understand the difference that you have created between the two
types of events, but, again, just because you've said the difference exists,
doesn't mean that it makes sense.
If you said that Toreador are not affected by cards that affect Camarilla
vampires, because the word Camarilla means something different for Toreador
than it does for Ventrue, I would understand what you're saying and would be
able to apply it, more or less, to play. But such a statement doesn't really
make any sense, now does it?
vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>So, in sum, "when minion X untaps" means when minion X goes from a tapped to
>an untapped state, whereas "untap minion X" means to apply the untap effect
>to minion X (which will have no effect if minion X is already untapped)
That would make sense, except that Riddle Phantastique is written in the
first format ("The minion burns 1 riddle counter instead of untapping")
and you're saying the second format applies.
[ quoted text not captured ]
CurtAdams wrote:
>
> vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>
> >So, in sum, "when minion X untaps" means when minion X goes from a tapped to
> >an untapped state, whereas "untap minion X" means to apply the untap effect
> >to minion X (which will have no effect if minion X is already untapped)
>
> That would make sense, except that Riddle Phantastique is written in the
> first format ("The minion burns 1 riddle counter instead of untapping")
> and you're saying the second format applies.
RP is clearly the second. You can't "instead of" something after the something.
You don't burn a riddle counter when minion X untaps. (the first case)
You burn a riddle counter instead of untapping minion X. (the second case)
[ quoted text not captured ]
curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) wrote in message news:<20020508041925...@mb-mn.aol.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Riddle Phantastique says "instead of untapping, do x." If you are
doing something "instead of untappaing" you can't even get to the part
where the card rotates again, so it has to refer to the 'untap effect'
rather than the actual untapping.
Lactamaeon
vte...@white-wolf.com writes:
>CurtAdams wrote:
>>> That would make sense, except that Riddle Phantastique is written in the
>> first format ("The minion burns 1 riddle counter instead of untapping")
>> and you're saying the second format applies.>RP is clearly the second. You can't "instead of" something after the
something.
>You don't burn a riddle counter when minion X untaps. (the first case)
>You burn a riddle counter instead of untapping minion X. (the second case)
You're currently using the word "untap" for two different meanings,
"ready" and "untap" in some games. If "untap" always means both, then
RP works as present; but a lot of other cards change, such as Charnas,
which would then have a target minion burn an extra blood during
the untap phase; one to ready (since "untap" means ready) and
one to turn 90 degrees if appropriate. If "untap" refers to the ready
concept on RP, it should on other cards as well.
The whole "ready" concept was specifically excluded from Jyhad when
it was first designed because Garfield thought it created too much
confusion. I don't know how it snuck back in. But certainly, if you
want V:tES to have the "ready" concept, you need a separate word for
it. Ready is *not* untap. If "untap" means one or the other on
a card-specific basis, you end up saying "untapping" is not untapping.
That's a mess.
[ quoted text not captured ]