With an unexpectedly low turnout,
14 Methuselah's gathered to play 3 rounds + final in Utrecht.
The people who did show up were:
Paul Wiggers, playing Giovanni Block Denial Powerbleed
Robert Camphuysen, playing Gangrel Toolbox(?)
Prim Ramsaroep, playing Bigcap !Brujah Bruise&Bleed
Peter Bouwman, playing Tzimisce toolbox
Dionisio Garcia Weyzig, playing Weenie Dominate
Joachim Tresoor, playing Toreador Aching vote/bleed
Bas van de Biggelaar, playing Trem/!Trem Cryptic Mission
Jeroen van Oort, playing Weenie celerity guns
Emile Bosman, playing Ravnos Week/Bleed
Emiliano Imeroni, playing Gangrel Wall
Dieter Ahrweiler, playing Toreador Grand Ball/vote
Dietmar Range, playing Lasombra embrace/Power structure
Tobias op den Brouw, playing Malkavian Tabledance/prank
Bram Vink, playing !Toreador obfuscate/vote
I, Bram Vink, actually only came to judge the event and compete in the
Battle Arena, but as the turnout was low, Emile and Tobias agreed to
judge as well, as we weren't all 3 in any round. We asked Dietmar to
judge the final rounds.
So I borrowed a deck from Peter Bouwman, and contributed my
contribution :)
Sadly I didn't get much from the rounds I didn't play in so I'll have
to keep my comments brief on those.
Round 1:
---
Table 1:
Paul Wiggers (Gio powerbleed)
Robert Camphuysen (Gangrel toolbox)
Prim Ramsaroep (!brujah Bruise/Bleed)
Peter Bouwman (Tzimisce toolbox)
Dionisio Garcia Weyzig (Weenie dominate)
I heard this game meant a quick end for Robert, as he didn't have any
bounce, with as predator Giovanni powerbleed and grandpredator weenie
dominate.
This table didn't get any gamewin, as Paul got ousted after he ousted
Robert, Dionisio (I'll further refer to him as dino as he's usually
called that) Rolled over Prim to get ousted by the tzimisce under
Peter's control:
Paul: 1
Peter: 2
Dino: 2
---
Table 2:
Joachim Tresoor (Toreador Aching/vote)
Bas van de Biggelaar (Cryptic Mission)
Jeroen van Oort (Weenie Cel)
Emile Bosman (Ravnos Week/Bleed)
Emiliano Imeroni (Gangrel Wall)
Luckily for Emile, this game timed out after Joachim had ousted Bas,
then Emiliano ousted Joachim. I didn't catch any of the beginning of
this game, but at the end Emile had 3 ravnos, with only 1 blood to
spare between them, and the week in play.
Joachim: 1
Jeroen: 0,5
Emile: 0,5
Emiliano: 1,5
---
Table 3:
Dieter Ahrweiler (Toreador Ball/Vote)
Dietmar Range (Lasombra Embrace)
Tobias op den Brouw (Malk Tabledance/Prank)
Bram Vink (!Toreador obfuscate/vote)
A very vote-heavy table, with Tobias handing out quite a bit of pool
with early pranks. After Tobias got ousted by the Marcus/Gratiano
fueled weenie horde, I was in a winning position, on a lot of pool,
without any Camarilla vampires and with Dieter low on pool, I could
have ousted him. Knowing this he struck a deal (which i stupidly kept)
to oust dietmar first, then roll over to me, making it 2 to me, 1 to
him and dietmar. I accepted, and after he had ousted Dietmar he had
recovered enough of his pool to break the deal to get a gamewin. My
bad, better judgement next time :)
Dieter: 3 GW
Dietmar: 1
---
Round 2:
---
Table 1:
Prim Ramsaroep (!Brujah Bruise/bleed)
Bram Vink (!Toreador obfuscate/vote)
Bas van de Biggelaar (Cryptic Mission)
Emiliano Imeroni (Gangrel Wall)
Dieter Ahrweiler (Toreador Vote/Grand Ball)
Prim didn't do that much against me in this game, and Bas and Dieter
had trouble with the Gangrel next to them. Using grand ball and
Millicent, Dieter still got off some actions/votes, and prim got low.
Without serious intercept sitting next to me, I got Bas pretty quickly
low, and struck a deal with Dieter to oust bas, then Prim, then
Emiliano, and I'd let him withdraw. He agreed. Bas was promptly
ousted, Prim following. Using Francois Villon and punches for one,
Emiliano's PRO/ANI gangrel couldn't keep up with the stealthed votes,
dieing shortly after. Keeping my deal even though i could've ousted
Dieter, I let him withdraw.
Bram Vink: 3 GM
Dieter: 2
---
Table 2:
Dionisio Garcia Weyzig (Weenie dominate)
Tobias op den Brouw (Malk Tabledance/Prank)
Emile Bosman (Ravnos Week/Bleed)
Robert Camphuysen (Gangrel Toolbox)
Dietmar Range (Lasombra Embrace)
I don't really know what happened here, not even the order of ousting
because of tabledance presence. (if anyone wants to fill in, be my
guest)
Dino: 3
Tobias: 1
Emile: 1
---
Peter Bouwman (Tzimisce)
Jeroen van Oort (Weenie cel)
Joachim Tresoor (Toreador Aching/vote)
Paul Wiggers (Giovanni powerbleed)
Don't really know what happened here either, but I heard something
about Paul fucking up leaving Peter and Jeroen low before dieing to
Joachim, who then proceeded to sweep the table.
Joachim Tresoor:4
---
After a break for food etc, we started round 3 a bit late:
---
Table 1:
Emiliano Imeroni (Gangrel Wall)
Peter Bouwman (Tzimisce)
Dieter Ahrweiler (Toreador Grand Ball/vote)
Tobias op den Brouw (Malk tabledance/prank)
Joachim Tresoor (Toreador Vote)
If i remember correctly, Joachim was ousted first here, by Tobias.
There was some tabledancing involved, and Dieter made a Deal with
Tobias to oust Tobias' prey and his. Tobias agreed, and tabledanced to
get the VP from the second person killed. After that game timed out
preventing mutual withdrawal.
---
Table 2:
Bram Vink (!Toreador Obfuscate/Vote)
Dietmar Range (Lasombra Embrace)
Paul Wiggers (Giovanni Powerbleed)
Jeroen van Oort (Weenie celerity)
Robert Camphuysen (Gangrel toolbox)
Jeroen was very scared (rightfully so) by Paul's deck, and spent the
whole game defending and rushing backwards. Paul made a big mistake
early in the game, accidentally putting 3 pool on Gloria Giovanni,
then adding 4, only to see that she wasn't the 7cap he wanted to bring
out. Jeroen called the judge (Emile) and he was kept to bringing her
out, and losing the 3 blood/pool.
Neither Dietmar nor Robert had the intercept to stop my votes, and
with vote superiority I could get Dietmar low quickly. My ousting move
(2x Ancilla Uprising) was Vox Domini'd by Jeroen, who would've lost 8
pool to that. So I only got one off, putting everyone a bit lower.
Paul had gotten out Valois Sang, who sadly for him was camarilla, so
using Marcus' ability, Dietmar was able to oust him. I proposed Jeroen
to oust Dietmar and Robert, then withdraw. He agreed, and after I
ousted Dietmar, Jeroen suicided on robert's minions. Robert was ousted
soon after and I kept to my deal.
Bram: 3 GW
Dietmar: 1
Jeroen: 1
---
Table 3:
Bas van de Biggelaar (Cryptic Mission)
Emile Bosman (Ravnos Week/Bleed)
Dionisio Garcia Weyzig (Weenie Dominate)
Prim Ramsaroep (!Brujah Bruise/Bleed)
I don't know much about what happened here, but Dino ousted Prim and
Bas, then was ousted by Emile, resulting in yet another table without
a gamewin.
Emile: 2
Dino: 2
All this made the finals look like this:
Bram Vink, (!Toreador Vote/Obfuscate) placed first with 2 GW, 6 VP
Dionisio Garcia Weyzig, (Weenie Dominate) placed second with 1 GW, 7
VP
Dieter Ahrweiler, (Toreador Grand Ball/Vote) placed third with 1 GW,
5.5 VP
Joachim Tresoor, (Toreador Aching Bleed/Vote) placed fourth with 1 GW,
5 VP
Tobias op den Brouw, (Malk Tabledance/Prank) placed fifth with 1 GW,
3,5 VP
--
Seating was chosen, resulting in:
Bram Vink ->
Joachim Tresoor ->
Dieter Ahrweiler ->
Dionisio Garcia Weyzig ->
Tobias op den Brouw ->
I chose my position bleeding Joachim as he (sorry Joachim) seemed to
me the least experienced player, and I thought the 2 Toreador decks
would hamper eachother in their crypt selection. Also Tobias' deck
seemed to me the one with the least ousting power.
With 4 vote decks on the table, this promised to be a loong final.
Dino quickly got out a few minions, but sadly for him, Tobias got a
Muddles on turn 3 or 4, and Dieter's first vampire out was Francois
Villon. Dino agreed with Tobias to just build a little and not bother
him.
In the meantime I had gotten out Aristotle and Kite, and was waiting
for a bewitching oration to push my first cardinal vote through
(between vote cards and the edge, there wasn't much hope of getting
one through with only a bishop)
to be followed quickly by the other cardinal vote I had in my hands.
In the meantime Joachim had Barth, Victoria Ash, and Anabelle Triabel.
He had already bled Dieter for quite a bit, who had Francois Villon,
Fleardumal, and Micheal Luther. Tobias had the muddles, brazil, some
other smallcap, Gregor and Gilbert. Tobias played a pretty early game
Madness network, which Aristotle immediately burned. Also Tobias had a
muddles, and he had played a Malkavian Rider Clause on my second
Cardinal vote. Sadly for Tobias, I stole the Muddles with the one
entrancement in Peter's deck.
Around this point I (rightfully) received a warning from Dietmar, as I
had already asked him wether I could tell others the card I had
(unintentionally) seen in Tobias' hand. After some fishing from Dino I
(stupidly) said that Tobias had lied during tabletalk (this based on
the information I had from seeing that card) This pissed Tobias off
quite a bit, and he then threathened to leave, for which he later
apologized.
After this little intermezzo, I had Brought out Jost, and gave him an
obfuscate master. Me and Dieter agreed to help eachother in ousting
Joachim and Dino, Joachim was on 6 pool, and was ousted by me playing
a KRC for 2 on him, 2 on Dino, and then 2 stealthed Enchant kindred
bleeds. After that I passed another cardinal vote, and brought out
christos mantigo which, in combination with a foundation exhibit,
gave me votelock by exactly 1 vote (2 if i played the Political
Action). In the meantime Dino had helped me quite a bit by burning 2
of his vampires to the Judgement Camarilla's Dieter had played. The
next turn I made a deal with Tobias that if he didn't stop my votes
I'd let him withdraw for second place, which he agreed to. I then
ousted Dieter and put Dino on 2 pool, who ousted himself to keep
Tobias from stealing the VP.
I then let Tobias withdraw, resulting in:
Bram: 4 GW
Tobias: 1
And then here's the winning decklist: constructed by Peter Bouwman
(posting in this group as cowfields) and again I'd like to thank him
for borrowing it to me.
Tournament Winning Deck The New Inquisition: Utrecht, The Netherlands
May 31rd, 2004
3 rounds + final
14 players
Crypt: (average capacity: 6.67)
1x Aristotle de Laurent
1x Lachlan, Noddist
2x Jessica Advanced
3x Greta Kircher
1x Kite
1x Sheila Mezarin
2x Jost Werner
1x Cristos Mantigo
-
Masters:
8x Minion Tap
5x Obfuscate
2x Pala Grande
1x Foundation Exhibit
1 Giants blood
1 Dias de los Muertos
1 Legendary Vampire
1 Purchase Pact
-
Political Actions:
9x Kine Resources Contested
6x Cardinal Benediction
4x Conservative Agitation
2x Ancilla Empowerment
1x Consanguineous Boon
1x Dramatic Upheaval
-
Actions:
5x Enchant Kindred
1x Entrancement
-
Action Modifiers:
8x Votercaptivation
6x Bewitching Oration
2x Awe
4x Cloak the Gathering
4x Lost in Crowds
4x Faceless Night
1x Forgotten Labyrinth
-
Reactions:
4x Telepathic Misdirection
2x Wake whit Evenings Freshness
-
Combat:
4x Majesty
Combination:
2x Swallowed by the Night
I hope I didn't omit too much, and (I hope) we all had a pretty good
time :)
Take care, and I hope to see everyone on the next tournament i'm
attending
-Bram Vink
Darky wrote:
> I then let Tobias withdraw, resulting in:
There's a lot of withdrawing in your report.
I am an old-timer, so I'm not sure, but in the old days you could only
withdraw if you ran out of crypt cards. Do people run out of crypt cards
that often in tournaments?
//Doc.
--
"Wees jezelf, er zijn al zoveel anderen" - Loesje
begin Your_MS_program_incorrectly_interprets_this_as_an_attachment.txt
The Doctor wrote:
> I am an old-timer, so I'm not sure, but in the old days you could only
> withdraw if you ran out of crypt cards. Do people run out of crypt cards
> that often in tournaments?
You can withdraw if you run out of library cards, not crypt cards.
I didn't read the report, but it could also be deal making. "Let me do
X and I'll allow you to withdraw" sort of thing.
--Colin McGuigan
The Doctor wrote:
> I am an old-timer, so I'm not sure, but in the old days you could only
> withdraw if you ran out of crypt cards. Do people run out of crypt cards
> that often in tournaments?
Not likely. But occasionally, people will make deals to agree to withdraw
(maybe whenre there are only two people left), at which point begins, what
we like to call, "Dance, monkey! Dance!", as the two players simply pass,
ditch, and draw as quickly as possible till they run out of cards, and then
they withdraw.
Peter D Bakija
pd...@lightlink.com
http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6
"Mr. President, ask not what your rest home can do for you.
Ask what you can do for your rest home."
-Elvis
"The Doctor" <D...@freemail.nl> schreef in bericht
news:40BE59D1...@freemail.nl...
> Darky wrote:
> > I then let Tobias withdraw, resulting in:
>
> There's a lot of withdrawing in your report.
>
> I am an old-timer, so I'm not sure, but in the old days you could only
> withdraw if you ran out of crypt cards. Do people run out of crypt
cards
> that often in tournaments?
Well, yes to that, but this is a different situation, which happens
fairly often in tournaments.
If a player is in a hopeless position, he can make a deal with the
winning player (or any player) to help him oust his prey(s) and then be
rewarded by being allowed to withdraw.
Example, I'm playing classic Jyhad oldschool Ventrue Politics with no
additional stealth. My prey is a Tzimicse wall deck that can intercept
anything I do. The chance that I score a VP is zero. What I *could* do
is strike a deal with my grandprey that if he helps me oust my prey,
I'll help him kill his prey and grandprey and then we both withdraw.
Gives me 2 VP and him 3 VP and the Gamewin. Alternatively, I could wall
up, gain pool and let the table time out and gain 0,5 VP. As you see,
making a withdraw deal can be favorable if you want to score as many
VP's as you can.
Or, I'm doing really good at a table. I have ousted my prey, but my
predator can really hurt me. My new prey is also going strong, has
ousted his prey and is now making his way through my predator. If I let
it go on like this, my prey will surely oust my predator and sweep the
table, especially since my predator is relly hurting me. I can now
strike a deal with him, to help me oust his prey and reward him by
letting him withdraw. Of course his predator can offer a similar deal,
but he's less likely to keep it, since, well, it's his predator.
Now it's not as simple as this, but in tournaments these kinds of deals
happen all the time. The actual withdrawing is often not an issue, as
both players simply draw and discard cards as fast as they can until
their decks are empty and then both announce to withdraw. Sometimes,
when there's only like one or two minutes left at the clock, a judge may
force the players to actually play it out to see if they can deck
themselves before the timer runs out. Or, a deck with many permanents
and a good position can choose the break the deal once the other deck is
empty.
On a sidenote, I was playing a Brujah/!Brujah long range combat deck in
my last tournament and I decked myself in each and every round except in
the finals. *Many* players have eaten all the way through their deck
except for 5-10 cards when they win a table (or when it times out). It's
a pretty basic principle. An average game of Jyhad, lasts for 13-15
turns. Let's say you can act starting with the 3rd. That leaves you with
anywhere from 11-13 turns to play your 90 card deck. So, basically you
should play 7 or 8 cards per turn (including discards and reactions in
other Meths turns of course) if you want full potential out of your
deck. Heck, if you're only playing 50 cards in any given game, why
bother with a 90-card deck?
This very principle is why "card-cyclers" like Dreams of the Sphinx, The
Barrens, Aura Reading and Specialization are extremely popular.
The Doctor wrote:
> Darky wrote:
>>> I then let Tobias withdraw, resulting in:>
>
> There's a lot of withdrawing in your report.
>
> I am an old-timer, so I'm not sure, but in the old days you could only
> withdraw if you ran out of crypt cards. Do people run out of crypt cards
> that often in tournaments?
Assuming you mean "library cards", yes, that's still required.
It happens in tournaments. Most of the times it happens, it happens
as part of a deal to produce the effect - all players remaining
take minimalist turns consisting of untap (already untapped,
so no time spent), master - no master, minion - no actions,
influence - no influence, discard 1 card, "done" to rapidly
exhaust their libraries to achieve the conditions necessary for
withdrawal.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Colin McGuigan wrote:
> The Doctor wrote:
>>> I am an old-timer, so I'm not sure, but in the old days you could only
>> withdraw if you ran out of crypt cards. Do people run out of crypt
>> cards that often in tournaments?>
>
> You can withdraw if you run out of library cards, not crypt cards.
Erm doh, of course. I must have been asleep when I wrote that.
I meant library, really :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
LSJ wrote:
> Assuming you mean "library cards", yes, that's still required.
Ghe, of course that's what I meant. In fact (activate DOM) that's
exactly what you saw me write ;)
> It happens in tournaments. Most of the times it happens, it happens
> as part of a deal to produce the effect - all players remaining
> take minimalist turns consisting of untap (already untapped,
> so no time spent), master - no master, minion - no actions,
> influence - no influence, discard 1 card, "done" to rapidly
> exhaust their libraries to achieve the conditions necessary for
> withdrawal.
Sounds pretty boring :)
I don't suppose anyone could come up with a good way to prevent this?
Seems to me that the time-limit and the half-point thing is part of why
anyone would eveen want to do this, right?
I guess it's a good plan strategically, so you can advance into the
tournament more. But it sounds like it will make for boring games.
Oh well, I won't be seeing much of this anyway, it'll take a long while
before I'd ever be able to join in on an official tournament :)
Maybe the guys in Utrecht will do a limited tournament some day, I could
go try that :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
The Doctor <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<40BE59D1...@freemail.nl>...
> Darky wrote:
> > I then let Tobias withdraw, resulting in:
>
> There's a lot of withdrawing in your report.
>
> I am an old-timer, so I'm not sure, but in the old days you could only
> withdraw if you ran out of crypt cards. Do people run out of crypt cards
> that often in tournaments?
>
> //Doc.
No, but if you agree to mutually withdraw, you can each discard cards
in turn to empty your library, then withdraw. If there are no pressing
time limits, this is sometimes allowed to be done without playing it
out.
-Bram Vink
"The Doctor" <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message
news:40BE9A95...@freemail.nl...
> LSJ wrote:
> > Assuming you mean "library cards", yes, that's still required.
>
> Ghe, of course that's what I meant. In fact (activate DOM) that's
> exactly what you saw me write ;)
>
> > It happens in tournaments. Most of the times it happens, it happens
> > as part of a deal to produce the effect - all players remaining
> > take minimalist turns consisting of untap (already untapped,
> > so no time spent), master - no master, minion - no actions,
> > influence - no influence, discard 1 card, "done" to rapidly
> > exhaust their libraries to achieve the conditions necessary for
> > withdrawal.
>
> Sounds pretty boring :)
> I don't suppose anyone could come up with a good way to prevent this?
Not worth the effort. One player at our qualifier last weekend (no, it
wasn't me) was doing a withdrawal deal with someone and then he ousted
him after he'd discarded all of his cards.
> I guess it's a good plan strategically, so you can advance into the
> tournament more. But it sounds like it will make for boring games.
It isn't too bad. Games timing out can be pretty boring too. Seeing
players hurriedly discarding while also worrying that the other players
won't stab them in the back is kinda fun to watch. Besides, it is
usually done in the last few minutes of a game.
-Robert
jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.04060...@posting.google.com>...
<snip>
> Table 2:
> Dionisio Garcia Weyzig (Weenie dominate)
> Tobias op den Brouw (Malk Tabledance/Prank)
> Emile Bosman (Ravnos Week/Bleed)
> Robert Camphuysen (Gangrel Toolbox)
> Dietmar Range (Lasombra Embrace)
>
> I don't really know what happened here, not even the order of ousting
> because of tabledance presence. (if anyone wants to fill in, be my
> guest)
Dino started off bleeding quite harshly, but I managed to get away
when I was low on pool to make him my grandprey and Dietmar my prey,
since his pool was fairly low, and my predator would become Robert,
who was suffering under Emile's bleeds. I oust Dietmar, Emile ousts
Robert, and dino sweeps me and Emile.
> Dino: 3
> Tobias: 1
> Emile: 1> Table 1:> Emiliano Imeroni (Gangrel Wall)
> Peter Bouwman (Tzimisce)
> Dieter Ahrweiler (Toreador Grand Ball/vote)
> Tobias op den Brouw (Malk tabledance/prank)
> Joachim Tresoor (Toreador Vote)
>
> If i remember correctly, Joachim was ousted first here, by Tobias.
> There was some tabledancing involved, and Dieter made a Deal with
> Tobias to oust Tobias' prey and his. Tobias agreed, and tabledanced to
> get the VP from the second person killed. After that game timed out
> preventing mutual withdrawal.
Yes. Contestation issues (Alexandra) make life difficult for Joachim,
as he brings her out after some dealing. This keeps him vulnerable to
my Telepathic Vote Countings. I rearrange the table to be
Me->Joachim->Dieter->Peter->Emiliano
before I oust Joachim, IIRC. I oust Joachim, Dieter puts Peter on 1
Pool and waits for him to die by Anarch revolt, but I change the
seating to
Me->Peter->Emiliano->Dieter
Thus ousting Peter. The game goes on to near time, and finally Dieter
and I go for a split and withdraw, but while we manage to oust
Emiliano time runs out before we can withdraw, and we wind up with:
Me 3.5 VP
Dieter .5 VP
> All this made the finals look like this:
>
> Bram Vink, (!Toreador Vote/Obfuscate) placed first with 2 GW, 6 VP
> Dionisio Garcia Weyzig, (Weenie Dominate) placed second with 1 GW, 7
> VP
> Dieter Ahrweiler, (Toreador Grand Ball/Vote) placed third with 1 GW,
> 5.5 VP
> Joachim Tresoor, (Toreador Aching Bleed/Vote) placed fourth with 1 GW,
> 5 VP
> Tobias op den Brouw, (Malk Tabledance/Prank) placed fifth with 1 GW,
> 3,5 VP
4.5 VP, actually.
> --
> Seating was chosen, resulting in:
>
> Bram Vink ->
> Joachim Tresoor ->
> Dieter Ahrweiler ->
> Dionisio Garcia Weyzig ->
> Tobias op den Brouw ->
>
> I chose my position bleeding Joachim as he (sorry Joachim) seemed to
> me the least experienced player, and I thought the 2 Toreador decks
> would hamper eachother in their crypt selection. Also Tobias' deck
> seemed to me the one with the least ousting power.
True. I would have to snipe for anything. In hindsight, I'd remove 2
pranks, probably, and add in either anarch revolts or ousting votes.
And maybe a bit more ousting power in general.
> With 4 vote decks on the table, this promised to be a loong final.
> Dino quickly got out a few minions, but sadly for him, Tobias got a
> Muddles on turn 3 or 4,
Turn 2, actually, I think. :)
> and Dieter's first vampire out was Francois
> Villon. Dino agreed with Tobias to just build a little and not bother
> him.
I wonder if Dino'd started going forward around the time he had 4
minions, whether things would've been much different.
> In the meantime I had gotten out Aristotle and Kite, and was waiting
> for a bewitching oration to push my first cardinal vote through
> (between vote cards and the edge, there wasn't much hope of getting
> one through with only a bishop)
> to be followed quickly by the other cardinal vote I had in my hands.
> In the meantime Joachim had Barth, Victoria Ash, and Anabelle Triabel.
> He had already bled Dieter for quite a bit, who had Francois Villon,
> Fleardumal, and Micheal Luther. Tobias had the muddles, brazil, some
> other smallcap, Gregor and Gilbert. Tobias played a pretty early game
> Madness network, which Aristotle immediately burned. Also Tobias had a
> muddles, and he had played a Malkavian Rider Clause on my second
> Cardinal vote. Sadly for Tobias, I stole the Muddles with the one
> entrancement in Peter's deck.
That could've unchained Dino, but by then he was suffering under
Dieter, and i had 4 minions up that didn't need to act much (VP
stealer as I am).
> Around this point I (rightfully) received a warning from Dietmar, as I
> had already asked him wether I could tell others the card I had
> (unintentionally) seen in Tobias' hand. After some fishing from Dino I
> (stupidly) said that Tobias had lied during tabletalk (this based on
> the information I had from seeing that card) This pissed Tobias off
> quite a bit, and he then threathened to leave, for which he later
> apologized.
Yeah, that was real stupid - by me, I mean. I really shouldn't have
let that get to me as much as it did. Luckily everything cooled down
real quick after that, and everything was cool again. My apologies
again to the all the other players.
> After this little intermezzo, I had Brought out Jost, and gave him an
> obfuscate master. Me and Dieter agreed to help eachother in ousting
> Joachim and Dino, Joachim was on 6 pool, and was ousted by me playing
> a KRC for 2 on him, 2 on Dino, and then 2 stealthed Enchant kindred
> bleeds.
Dieter and Dino asked me why I didn't use my Rider Clause on that
Kindred Restructure I had all along to become Joachim's predator when
he was around 7 pool and clearly in trouble. I didn't because I
expected one of the other vote decks to easily jump back into that
seat with a seat-changer of their own (the game had gotten long enough
for most vote decks to have a good chance of having drawn into it),
and, as noted, my deck should've had a little more ousting power - I
wasn't sure of getting Joachim quickly. So I though I'd bide my time
and snipe when the opportunity was better.
> After that I passed another cardinal vote, and brought out
> christos mantigo which, in combination with a foundation exhibit,
> gave me votelock by exactly 1 vote (2 if i played the Political
> Action). In the meantime Dino had helped me quite a bit by burning 2
> of his vampires to the Judgement Camarilla's Dieter had played. The
> next turn I made a deal with Tobias that if he didn't stop my votes
> I'd let him withdraw for second place, which he agreed to.
LOL. Actually, I think my terms were 'and after that, you roll over to
me' - which means a 3-2 split instead of a 4-1.
> I then
> ousted Dieter and put Dino on 2 pool, who ousted himself to keep
> Tobias from stealing the VP.
> I then let Tobias withdraw, resulting in:
>
> Bram: 4 GW
> Tobias: 1
Screwed out of one more VP! Damn you to eternal hell, Bram! Ermmm well
no, guess that serves me right. Hell, you could've just broken the
deal at that point to spite me, but that would've been extremely
unlikely.
> I hope I didn't omit too much, and (I hope) we all had a pretty good
> time :)
Certainly did, although I won't be playing VP-snipe filth again any
time soon. I find it pretty boring to wait for the table to collapse -
although it's a great deck for intermediate players to learn to watch
table balance. :)
> Take care, and I hope to see everyone on the next tournament i'm
> attending
Let's see if we can swap #1 spot again, Bram. :)
--
Tobias
Deventer
On 2 Jun 2004 20:42:48 -0700, jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) scrawled:
[ quoted text not captured ]
it should never be allowed to be done without playing it out. it
unfairly removes the option of 'backstab', and makes anyone who asks
for it to be actually played out when they are doing it to be
instantly under suspicion of planning to backstab. if everyone always
has to physically run through their library before they can withdraw,
it keeps things fair. and, you know, it's in the rules.
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
(replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)
"I like to play the field"-LSJ
The Doctor wrote:
> I don't suppose anyone could come up with a good way to prevent this?
Not while maintaining the zero-sumness of the game, unless you want to
award "free" withdrawal at thetime limit (instead of 0.5 VPs) - the latter
option is a cure worse than the disease.
> Seems to me that the time-limit and the half-point thing is part of why
> anyone would eveen want to do this, right?
Right.
> I guess it's a good plan strategically, so you can advance into the
> tournament more. But it sounds like it will make for boring games.
Not really. It only affects the last 2 minutes or so of a game, in
practice. 1:58 of "hard gaming" followed by 2 minutes of rapid cycling
isn't exactly "boring", on whole.
[ quoted text not captured ]
salem <salem_ch...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<tattb0lb3iqm90v26...@4ax.com>...
> On 2 Jun 2004 20:42:48 -0700, jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) scrawled:
>
> >The Doctor <D...@freemail.nl> wrote in message news:<40BE59D1...@freemail.nl>...
> >> Darky wrote:
> >> > I then let Tobias withdraw, resulting in:
> >>
> >> There's a lot of withdrawing in your report.
> >>
> >> I am an old-timer, so I'm not sure, but in the old days you could only
> >> withdraw if you ran out of crypt cards. Do people run out of crypt cards
> >> that often in tournaments?
> >>
> >> //Doc.
> >
> >No, but if you agree to mutually withdraw, you can each discard cards
> >in turn to empty your library, then withdraw. If there are no pressing
> >time limits, this is sometimes allowed to be done without playing it
> >out.
>
> it should never be allowed to be done without playing it out. it
> unfairly removes the option of 'backstab', and makes anyone who asks
> for it to be actually played out when they are doing it to be
> instantly under suspicion of planning to backstab.
<snip>
or even better: Brinksmanship. I heard a rumor that someone in Paris
convinced a table to mutually withdraw and then played Brinksmanship
when people discarded their last card. :-)
I think it was Tobias <tobiasop...@hotmail.com>, who once wrote:
> jja....@hccnet.nl (Darky) wrote in message news:<93148a54.04060...@posting.google.com>...
>
> <snip>
>> > Table 1:
> > Emiliano Imeroni (Gangrel Wall)
> > Peter Bouwman (Tzimisce)
> > Dieter Ahrweiler (Toreador Grand Ball/vote)
> > Tobias op den Brouw (Malk tabledance/prank)
> > Joachim Tresoor (Toreador Vote)
> >
> > If i remember correctly, Joachim was ousted first here, by Tobias.
> > There was some tabledancing involved, and Dieter made a Deal with
> > Tobias to oust Tobias' prey and his. Tobias agreed, and tabledanced to
> > get the VP from the second person killed. After that game timed out
> > preventing mutual withdrawal.
>
> Yes. Contestation issues (Alexandra) make life difficult for Joachim,
> as he brings her out after some dealing.
Contestation wasn't so bad, actually. After all, I did get to bring out
Alexandra. Unfortunately, I didn't get any other vampire with superior
presence in my initial crypt, nor after fishing two times. In the end
I gave up and brought out the two-cap with inferior presence. Wasn't
much I could do against you, though. Especially with all those Majesties
stuck in my hand 'cause I wasn't getting into combat.
> > Seating was chosen, resulting in:
> >
> > Bram Vink ->
> > Joachim Tresoor ->
> > Dieter Ahrweiler ->
> > Dionisio Garcia Weyzig ->
> > Tobias op den Brouw ->
> >
> > I chose my position bleeding Joachim as he (sorry Joachim) seemed to
> > me the least experienced player, and I thought the 2 Toreador decks
> > would hamper eachother in their crypt selection. Also Tobias' deck
> > seemed to me the one with the least ousting power.
Well, it was my first constructed final, so it's true enough. Crypt
selection wasn't so bad this time, though.
> Yeah, that was real stupid - by me, I mean. I really shouldn't have
> let that get to me as much as it did. Luckily everything cooled down
> real quick after that, and everything was cool again. My apologies
> again to the all the other players.
Ah well, I can imagine getting pissed off by something like that. In the
end, you continued the game, and I'm glad for it. :)
> > After this little intermezzo, I had Brought out Jost, and gave him an
> > obfuscate master. Me and Dieter agreed to help eachother in ousting
> > Joachim and Dino, Joachim was on 6 pool, and was ousted by me playing
> > a KRC for 2 on him, 2 on Dino, and then 2 stealthed Enchant kindred
> > bleeds.
This was just plain stupid of me. I was too eager for the kill, wanted to
keep the pressure on Dieter, so I kept bleeding, hoping I would either
get blocked and untap with Majesty or Change of Target in my hand, or
that Bram couldn't (or wouldn't for fearing Wakes) do 7 pool damage.
Guessed wrong. :(
> Dieter and Dino asked me why I didn't use my Rider Clause on that
> Kindred Restructure I had all along to become Joachim's predator when
> he was around 7 pool and clearly in trouble. I didn't because I
> expected one of the other vote decks to easily jump back into that
> seat with a seat-changer of their own (the game had gotten long enough
> for most vote decks to have a good chance of having drawn into it),
> and, as noted, my deck should've had a little more ousting power - I
> wasn't sure of getting Joachim quickly. So I though I'd bide my time
> and snipe when the opportunity was better.
I so wish you had! In retrospect, I do blame myself for not talking to
the table enough. If I had made clear that my threat to Dieter wasn't
as big as it seemed, maybe the Parity Shifts wouldn't have passed.
Also, I might have been able to block one of the first Cardinal Benedictions,
but I figured I'd wait to see if he could get the vote through. And even
if it did, I figured the votes might help block Dieters votes. Stooopid. ;)
> > I hope I didn't omit too much, and (I hope) we all had a pretty good
> > time :)
Sure did! Whee, I made it to a final! :P
Rogar
I think it was Darky <jja....@hccnet.nl>, who once wrote:
> Table 2:
> Joachim Tresoor (Toreador Aching/vote)
> Bas van de Biggelaar (Cryptic Mission)
> Jeroen van Oort (Weenie Cel)
> Emile Bosman (Ravnos Week/Bleed)
> Emiliano Imeroni (Gangrel Wall)
>
> Luckily for Emile, this game timed out after Joachim had ousted Bas,
> then Emiliano ousted Joachim. I didn't catch any of the beginning of
> this game, but at the end Emile had 3 ravnos, with only 1 blood to
> spare between them, and the week in play.
Fearing Bas' Deflections and Conditionings, Jeroen rushed backwards for
most of the early game. Although Bas' Wind Dancing was quite impressive,
in the end his vampires succumbed, giving me an easy VP. After that,
of course, the rushing went in my direction, and between the guns and
the claws, I ran out of Majesty and was ousted. There was some dealing
about withdrawing and stuff, but in the end the table timed out before
the most current deal could be executed. Or broken, whatever.
> Peter Bouwman (Tzimisce)
> Jeroen van Oort (Weenie cel)
> Joachim Tresoor (Toreador Aching/vote)
> Paul Wiggers (Giovanni powerbleed)
>
> Don't really know what happened here either, but I heard something
> about Paul fucking up leaving Peter and Jeroen low before dieing to
> Joachim, who then proceeded to sweep the table.
That's the gist of it, yeah. Paul and Peter were pretty much going forward,
and Jeroen went with the flow, contrary to his other games. Fortunately
I had enough Majesty to keep him off my Famed vampire, and when Paul tapped
out to try and oust Peter, I jumped on the opportunity and ousted Paul.
Soon afterwards, my remaining opponents on two pool, my Aching vampire
and the last that could bleed having been redirected to my predator, I
went and hunted with one of my untapped vampires. Paul tried to block, I
cycled a Change of Target and top-decked a KRC. Game over.
I do want to mention the first turn Tension in the Ranks by Jeroen and
subsequent discarding of two Life in the City's by me, that may have just
made my game, though.
Rogar
Rogar <MYNICKN...@phreaker.net> wrote:
<snip>
> Also, I might have been able to block one of the first Cardinal Benedictions,
> but I figured I'd wait to see if he could get the vote through. And even
> if it did, I figured the votes might help block Dieters votes. Stooopid. ;)
Don't blame yourself, I was discarding stealth all game, as noone had
any intercept (above 1-3). At that moment I could've brought my vote
(already at 2 stealth) up to at least 5 stealth :)
> > > I hope I didn't omit too much, and (I hope) we all had a pretty good
> > > time :)
>
> Sure did! Whee, I made it to a final! :P
>
> Rogar
Was nice playing with you.
-Bram Vink
Rogar <MYNICKN...@phreaker.net> wrote:
<snip>
> Also, I might have been able to block one of the first Cardinal Benedictions,
> but I figured I'd wait to see if he could get the vote through. And even
> if it did, I figured the votes might help block Dieters votes. Stooopid. ;)
Don't blame yourself, I was discarding stealth all game, as noone had
any intercept (above 1-3). At that moment I could've brought my vote
(already at 2 stealth) up to at least 5 stealth :)
> > > I hope I didn't omit too much, and (I hope) we all had a pretty good
> > > time :)
>
> Sure did! Whee, I made it to a final! :P
>
> Rogar
Was nice playing with you.
-Bram Vink