If Mata Hari is Clan Impersonated/Deranged to Malkavian, and there is a
Madness Network in play, can she use actions that require a clan other
than Malkavian during other Methuselah's turns?
(i.e., can she recruit a Renegade Garou during my predator's turn?)
On Mon, 29 Aug 2005 08:01:45 -0500, Jozxyqk <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu>
wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
Why wouldn't she? Only the card she plays considers her to be a member
of the required clan. For all other effects, she is considered to be
her clan normally.
--
Bye,
Daneel
[ quoted text not captured ]
So since the Madness Network provides special abilities only for
Malkavians, and Mata Hari is acting "as a Malkavian" on someone else's
turn, she can't use her special to play cards "as if" she were another
clan/sect?
Does that follow if she's still default Ravnos (or any other
non-Malkavian clan), then she can recruit Muddled Vampire Hunters or
Derange other vampires on other Meths turns?
Jeff
jeff...@pacbell.net wrote:
> So since the Madness Network provides special abilities only for
> Malkavians, and Mata Hari is acting "as a Malkavian" on someone else's
> turn, she can't use her special to play cards "as if" she were another
> clan/sect?
Correct.
> Does that follow if she's still default Ravnos (or any other
> non-Malkavian clan), then she can recruit Muddled Vampire Hunters or
> Derange other vampires on other Meths turns?
No.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
news:opsv92v3...@news.chello.hu...
[ quoted text not captured ]
...which is why she can't use the Madness Network to act out of turn in
the first place, no matter what kind of actions she wants to take on
other people's turns.
You can use Mata Hari as the "Malkavian" to allow you to put Madness
Network into play. But she can't use its ability, because it doesn't
consider her to be a Malkavian after it's been put in play.
Right?
Josh
was confused by this question at first
Joshua Duffin <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[ quoted text not captured ]
The initial proposition included Mata Hari actually *being* a Malkavian
at the time.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yes, via Clan Impersonation/Derange.
So she would be a Malk for all other purposes except the Garou card.
Wouldn't she be able to act out of turn?
[]s
Fabio Sooner
"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message
news:dpednWlm4Kz...@comcast.com...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Um, so it did. No wonder I was confused, I forgot about that part. :-)
OK, in that case, I don't follow why Mata Hari with Clan Impersonation
to Malkavian shouldn't be able to recruit a Renegade Garou through the
Madness Network.
Scott? A little help? It seems like a Malkavian Mata Hari should be
able to take whatever actions she pleases via the Madness Network - only
the cards she's playing "as if she were of that required sect and/or
clan" treat her as being of that (non-Malkavian) sect or clan; all other
cards in the game see her as she is - in this case, as a Malkavian (who
is allowed to act out of turn).
Josh
always missing the point
LSJ wrote:
> Jozxyqk wrote:
> > If Mata Hari is Clan Impersonated/Deranged to Malkavian, and there is a
> > Madness Network in play, can she use actions that require a clan other
> > than Malkavian during other Methuselah's turns?
> >
> > (i.e., can she recruit a Renegade Garou during my predator's turn?)
>
> No.
I don't understand this at all.
1) Mata Hari uses Clan Impersonation to become Malkavian. Her special
ability doesn't notice or care, since it's not linked to her being
Ravnos and Clan Impersonation doesn't have a "played as" requirement.
2) Madness Network is in play, or is played via Mata Hari (using either
her special or her status as a member of the Malkavian clan).
3) Mata Hari takes an action out-of-turn to recruit a Renegade Garou.
a) She is only allowed to take this OOT action because she's previously
Clan Impersonated to Malkavian; her special wouldn't allow her to
actually use the Madness Network, only to put it into play.
b) Her special still allows her to play cards requiring any sect and/or
clan, since that special isn't tied to her being Ravnos. She's unable
to play cards requiring more than one different clan or sect (ie, she
can't use Walk of Arcadia to modify a Riddle Phantastique action), but
that doesn't matter in this case because she's using her innate
Malkavian-ness to act out-of-turn, not her special. So as long as she
only plays one card with a non-Malkavian clan or non-Camarilla sect
requirement she can still use her special out-of-turn.
Which part of the above is incorrect?
John Eno
LSJ wrote:
> jeff...@pacbell.net wrote:
> > So since the Madness Network provides special abilities only for
> > Malkavians, and Mata Hari is acting "as a Malkavian" on someone else's
> > turn, she can't use her special to play cards "as if" she were another
> > clan/sect?
>
> Correct.
Just to address all the permutations (not sure if my answers are
right):
Madness Network in play. Another Meth's turn.
Mata Hari is Malkavian due to Clan Imp/Derange.
Q1: Can she recruit a Muddled Vampire Hunter or Derange someone else?
A1: Yes, because she's acting as a Malkavian so her special doesn't
apply.
Q2: Can she recruit a Rom Gypsy?
A2: No, because she's acting as a Malkavian, not as a Ravnos.
Q3: Can she use her disciplines to take actions?
A3: Yes, because she is Malkavian, there is no restriction on her.
Q4: Can she call a Camarilla Exemplary or Praxis Seizure?
A4: Yes, she could call the vote because she is Camarilla due to the
CI/Derange. She can even become Prince.
Q5: Can she call a Free States Rant or get Zillah's Tears?
A5: Yes, her special would allow her to act as if Independent or
Sabbat, even though she is Camarilla at present.
Q6: What if she had gone Anarch or Into the Fire after she went
Malkavian?
A6: Yes, due to her special, she could still call any of those votes,
but she couldn't be the choice of Cam Exemplary or Praxis. She could
only burn the Tears if she were Sabbat at the time due to card text.
Madness Network in play. Another Meth's turn.
Mata Hari is default Ravnos.
Q7: Can she recruit a Muddled Vampire Hunter or Derange someone else?
A7: Yes. Via her special, she is acting as a Malkavian so Madness
Network allows her to act.
Q8: Can she recruit a Rom Gypsy?
A8: No, because she's acting as a Ravnos.
Q9: Can she use her disciplines to take actions?
A9: No. Just because she *can* act as if she were another clan doesn't
mean she can do it without a card by just claiming she's "acting as a
Malkavian."
Q10: So could she call a Camarilla Exemplary or Praxis Seizure?
A10: No, she is only acting as Camarilla, not as Malkavian, so Madness
Network prevents her.
Q11: Can she call a Free States Rant or get Zillah's Tears?
A11: No, because she's acting as Independent or Sabbat, not Malkavian.
Q12: Suppose she had somehow become Camarilla due to Writ of
Acceptance. What would this mean?
A12: Not a whole lot. If she tried to act via Madness Network, she'd
still be acting as a Camarilla Malkavian.
Jeff
Fabio Sooner wrote:
> So she would be a Malk for all other purposes except the Garou card.
> Wouldn't she be able to act out of turn?
Sure.
And she could play cards that require a Gangrel as a Gangrel could.
Which, as it turns out, means not out of turn (since that is how
a Gangrel could play, say, Renegade Garou).
[ quoted text not captured ]
jeff...@pacbell.net wrote:
> Just to address all the permutations (not sure if my answers are
> right):
>
> Madness Network in play. Another Meth's turn.
> Mata Hari is Malkavian due to Clan Imp/Derange.
>
> Q1: Can she recruit a Muddled Vampire Hunter or Derange someone else?
> A1: Yes, because she's acting as a Malkavian so her special doesn't
> apply.
>
> Q2: Can she recruit a Rom Gypsy?
> A2: No, because she's acting as a Malkavian, not as a Ravnos.
>
> Q3: Can she use her disciplines to take actions?
> A3: Yes, because she is Malkavian, there is no restriction on her.
>
> Q4: Can she call a Camarilla Exemplary or Praxis Seizure?
> A4: Yes, she could call the vote because she is Camarilla due to the
> CI/Derange. She can even become Prince.
>
> Q5: Can she call a Free States Rant or get Zillah's Tears?
> A5: Yes, her special would allow her to act as if Independent or
> Sabbat, even though she is Camarilla at present.
>
> Q6: What if she had gone Anarch or Into the Fire after she went
> Malkavian?
> A6: Yes, due to her special, she could still call any of those votes,
> but she couldn't be the choice of Cam Exemplary or Praxis. She could
> only burn the Tears if she were Sabbat at the time due to card text.
Correct so far.
> Madness Network in play. Another Meth's turn.
> Mata Hari is default Ravnos.
> Q7: Can she recruit a Muddled Vampire Hunter or Derange someone else?
> A7: Yes. Via her special, she is acting as a Malkavian so Madness
> Network allows her to act.
No. Madness Network sees her Ravnosity.
> Q8: Can she recruit a Rom Gypsy?
> A8: No, because she's acting as a Ravnos.
>
> Q9: Can she use her disciplines to take actions?
> A9: No. Just because she *can* act as if she were another clan doesn't
> mean she can do it without a card by just claiming she's "acting as a
> Malkavian."
>
> Q10: So could she call a Camarilla Exemplary or Praxis Seizure?
> A10: No, she is only acting as Camarilla, not as Malkavian, so Madness
> Network prevents her.
>
> Q11: Can she call a Free States Rant or get Zillah's Tears?
> A11: No, because she's acting as Independent or Sabbat, not Malkavian.
Correct.
> Q12: Suppose she had somehow become Camarilla due to Writ of
> Acceptance. What would this mean?
> A12: Not a whole lot. If she tried to act via Madness Network, she'd
> still be acting as a Camarilla Malkavian.
OK.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:oP5Re.4777$FW1...@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Fabio Sooner wrote:>> So she would be a Malk for all other purposes except the Garou card.
>> Wouldn't she be able to act out of turn?>
> Sure.
>
> And she could play cards that require a Gangrel as a Gangrel could.
> Which, as it turns out, means not out of turn (since that is how
> a Gangrel could play, say, Renegade Garou).
This doesn't really make sense to me in light of other "play a card as
if X" rulings. My understanding is that when a minion plays a card "as
if it met the requirements", each card it plays in that way handles its
own requirement-matching, but if the minion is "faking" the ability to
play more than one card (over the course of an action, for example), the
cards don't look at each other and decide they can't go together.
This is illustrated in the Mata Hari rulings here:
groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/077458b4936a0078
where it's stated that Mata Hari *can* play Walk Through Arcadia
(requires !Malkavian) on a Kindred Intelligence action (requires
Nosferatu). And even more convincingly, she can pay for Charnas the Imp
(requires Tremere) with Ravnos Carnival counters ("when a Ravnos you
control successfully performs an action").
To me, this seems very similar to being able to take an action via
Madness Network (because Mata Hari is Clan Impersonated to Malkavian)
that has a non-Malkavian requirement (e.g. Renegade Garou). The Madness
Network should only care if the minion is Malkavian in granting the
right to take actions - it shouldn't care if the minion is using that
right to play a card that requires Gangrel. (It wouldn't care if the
minion were playing an action *modifier* that required Gangrel, right?)
From all the explanations I've seen before, "play cards as if X" means
that Mata Hari is only considered Gangrel for the purpose of playing the
Renegade Garou here - she is not considered Gangrel by any other cards
in the game. Just as allies that can play cards "as vampires" are not
affected by Veil of Darkness, Mata Hari (when a Malkavian via Clan
Impersonation) should not be restricted in what cards she can play
during Madness Network actions.
Josh
also see: kemintiri playing second tradition after the camarilla has
fallen
[ quoted text not captured ]
Seems to me that the important distinction is that she plays cards as
if she is of the clan, she is not playing madnet, she is trying to use
it.. when its inplay her cardtext does not apply as she or you are not
playing the card. Probably same with sword of troile etc.
LSJ wrote:
> Fabio Sooner wrote:
> > So she would be a Malk for all other purposes except the Garou card.
> > Wouldn't she be able to act out of turn?
>
> Sure.
> And she could play cards that require a Gangrel as a Gangrel could.
> Which, as it turns out, means not out of turn (since that is how
> a Gangrel could play, say, Renegade Garou).> LSJ (vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep (remove spam trap to reply)
> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/
Ah. Now I think I get it.
Since she's trying an action that requires a Gangrel, but using an
effect-in-play that requires her to be Malk (which she effectively is),
there's a conflict of requirements to that particular attempt. She
can't attempt an action that requires her to be (or be treated as) as a
member of two different clans at the same time.
But could Clan Impersonated Malkavian Mata attempt to, say, bleed
between her controller's turn and her controller's prey turn via
Madness Network, and then modify the action using a card that requires
other clan, like the already mentioned Walk Through Arcadia? In other
words, once she uses her special do act/modify the action as a vampire
of clan X (which she isn't), should she "stick" to that one clan X
during all stages of an action until resolution?
Because if it's not legal, then she couldn't call a Sybil's Tongue and
modify the action using a Rom Gypsy's special, right?
best,
Fabio Sooner
former NC for Brazil
Giovanni Clan Newsletter Editor in absentia
Joshua Duffin wrote:
> This doesn't really make sense to me in light of other "play a card as
> if X" rulings. My understanding is that when a minion plays a card "as
> if it met the requirements", each card it plays in that way handles its
> own requirement-matching, but if the minion is "faking" the ability to
> play more than one card (over the course of an action, for example), the
> cards don't look at each other and decide they can't go together.
Yeah, OK.
REVERSAL:
Mata Hari, having changed her clan to Malkavian via, for example, Clan
Impersonation, can take an action via the Madness Network, even if that
action card requires another (non-Malk) clan.
[ quoted text not captured ]
"LSJ" <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:fTqRe.4846$9i4...@newsread2.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> Joshua Duffin wrote:>> This doesn't really make sense to me in light of other "play a card as
>> if X" rulings. My understanding is that when a minion plays a card "as
>> if it met the requirements", each card it plays in that way handles its
>> own requirement-matching, but if the minion is "faking" the ability to
>> play more than one card (over the course of an action, for example), the
>> cards don't look at each other and decide they can't go together.>
> Yeah, OK.
>
> REVERSAL:
>
> Mata Hari, having changed her clan to Malkavian via, for example, Clan
> Impersonation, can take an action via the Madness Network, even if that
> action card requires another (non-Malk) clan.
*phew*.
Thank you. I was about to bang my head on the desk there. Without even
really being sure why.
Fred
thinks these "play-a-card-as" questions shouldn't oughtta be this
complicated, somehow...
On Tue, 30 Aug 2005 23:23:20 GMT, LSJ <vtesr...@TRAPwhite-wolf.com>
wrote:
> jeff...@pacbell.net wrote:>> Just to address all the permutations (not sure if my answers are
>> right):
>>
>> Madness Network in play. Another Meth's turn.
>> Mata Hari is Malkavian due to Clan Imp/Derange.>> Q2: Can she recruit a Rom Gypsy?
>> A2: No, because she's acting as a Malkavian, not as a Ravnos.
...
> Correct so far.
...
>> Madness Network in play. Another Meth's turn.
>> Mata Hari is default Ravnos.
>> Q7: Can she recruit a Muddled Vampire Hunter or Derange someone else?
>> A7: Yes. Via her special, she is acting as a Malkavian so Madness
>> Network allows her to act.>
> No. Madness Network sees her Ravnosity.
I see a controversy here. Why doesn't Madness Network see her "MalCavity"
when she is trying to act out of turn using her special? Only the card
she plays using her special considers her to be a member of that clan,
and no other effects. I mean, that's kind of how she can play Walk
Through Arcadia on a War Ghoul action.
--
Bye,
Daneel
On Fri, 02 Sep 2005 20:01:04 +0200, Daneel <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote:
> I see a controversy here. Why doesn't Madness Network see her "MalCavity"
> when she is trying to act out of turn using her special? Only the card
> she plays using her special considers her to be a member of that clan,
> and no other effects. I mean, that's kind of how she can play Walk
> Through Arcadia on a War Ghoul action.
Cancel that. Seems like, I wasn't alone with this. Talk about replying
before reading everything related... :(
--
Bye,
Daneel
"Daneel" <dan...@eposta.hu> wrote in message
news:opswhln2...@news.chello.hu...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Covered by LSJ's 8/31/05 reversal elsewhere in this thread...
DaveZ
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