The Austrian Qualifier Finals problem.

First of all I have to say that in the EC and the Austrian Qualifier, the organization team from Vienna did a great work, LSJ as White Wolf representative too. Organization was excellent and the place choosen for the event was great. I think that the record of players in a tournament was beaten (115 players). The only one problem "shadowing" the event happened in the Austrian Qualifier finals at Saturday. I played the tournament, I was there, very near. I was sitted at two metters from the judges when the decklists of the two french players at the final where revised. This is what happened: 1.- Before the final begins, the judges ask all 5 players to give their decks for revision. I am sitting just at two meters from the judges while they check the decks against the official decklist given. 2.- Two diferent judges find differences in the decks of the two french finalists. To be concrect: Stephane Lavrut decklist for the tournament said "3 Direct intervention and 3 Memories of moratility", the judges found 4 memories of mortality and 2 direct intervention. One of the memories of mortality was from a different edition than the other three, and the sleeve of this card was absolutely brilliant and new (making clear that he could have putted it in the deck DURING the tournament). In the other hand the other french finalist also had differences beetween the number of Blur/pursuits writen and his deck (I could not hear exactly the difference, but THERE was a difference). 3.- Organizators & judges talk and read the V:EKN tournament rules for this case and it is clear: DISQUALIFICATION. Worried about the strict consecuences, they ask LSJ, who confirms that rules say. Being reasonable, before taking the final decision, they decide to ask the players for the difference. First time asqued, Stephane Lavrut says that "may be, the fourth Memories of Mortality was put inside my deck from other player's deck in previous rounds". The judges ask then, where is the third direct intervention?. Then there is a lot of confussion and weak explanations and finally the french player says that he, from the beginning was playing with 4 MoM and 2 DI. When the judges print his decklist with the 3 MoM and the 3 DI, he brings a piece of paper printed and MODIFIED WITH A PENCIL and begin to swear that he mistaked in the decklist and that he bought the deck written from home with 4 MoM and 2 DI. 4.- The judges, finally resolve to allow them to play the finals with a severe warning (I think they did this because if they would have disqualified the two french players, all the tournament and next day EC would have been modified, and time was 20:00 before starting the finals). 5.- The two French players start to play in the finals. This was the table order: - The Lasombra (Jeff) with a Lasombra/Embrace deck (It was great Jeff!!!) - An UK player with a Stanislava Bleed + Prot deck (Interesting, I played against him in the last round of the EC) - The second French player (not Stephan) with a CEL + Guns + Rush Brujah Deck - Stephane Lavrut with Turbo tzimisce War Ghoul Deck. - An Euro Brujah Deck (I don't remember the nacionality of the player) 6.- After 12 turns, the first French player (guns + cel) had not did a single bleed or rush agaist his prey (second French Player: Stephan). He was all the time crying because "he was going to die" because of the Anarch Revolts of the lasombra (he had 15 pool, 4 vampires, Powerbase montreal and Hunting ground/blood doll). Meanwhile, his prey (Stephane), brings out 3 war ghouls, and outs his prey (the eurobrujah). Jeff does the same with the Stanyslava UK deck, and still then, NOT A SINGLE BLEED OR RUSH AGAINST HIS PREY (STEPHANE). Then, Stephane Lavrut begins to talk with the brujah FOR HIM TO RUSH THE LASOMBRA VAMPIRES!!! in order to get the finals VP's. 7.- The judges warns the brujah player for his play mode, the Brujah player make a small bleed for the judge, and finally the Tzimisce outs the Lasombra. 8.- Once the two Frenchs where alone in the table, IN 3 TURNS, the brujah deck destroys ALL the WarGhouls of Stephan, and sends ALL his vampires into torpor and wins the only VP necessary to be the 2nd qualified. This is what happened. I am Jorge Ramirez, from Spain, I played the Austrian Qualifier (I got there the EC Qualification) and the EC tournament on sunday (I was 10th) . I have seen this by myself, nobody has told this information to me, and this is real. I understand the position of the judges, this is very difficult to avoid. But it is sad that the two players wich had wrong decklists, played this way in the finals after they where given the oportunity to play instead of desqualification.

"Jorge Ramírez" <jo...@r2sistemas.com> wrote in message news:535e0619.02120...@posting.google.com *Snip the long report etc* > I understand the position of the judges, this is very difficult to > avoid. But it is sad that the two players wich had wrong decklists, > played this way in the finals after they where given the oportunity to > play instead of desqualification. This seems to be a fair and reasonable account of what happened. The judges made their decision and the players played their game. The game is done, the result stands, and it has been discussed to death. I think Jeff (The Lasombra) videoed the whole match, and it should appear on his website for those who are still interested in going over the past. As far as I know, the vast majority of the players (and it wasn't like there weren't many after all) had a really good time, and the organisation was really good considering that there were four separate tournaments played in two days. This is not to mention the organisation that went into the welcoming party and the LARP display that went on there (someone really should have tried to claim the two good luck charms that no-one owned up to, especially as one of the clans that were not 'defended' won the EC). Well done Carl and the crew. Can we talk about something else now? It's not like anything is going to be changed - it's all a bit late for recriminations isn't it? -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

Jorge Ramírez wrote: > 3.- Organizators & judges talk and read the V:EKN tournament rules for > this case and it is clear: DISQUALIFICATION. Worried about the strict > consecuences, they ask LSJ, who confirms that rules say. I confirmed that the guidelines would support such a decision, yes. > 4.- The judges, finally resolve to allow them to play the finals with > a severe warning (I think they did this because if they would have > disqualified the two french players, all the tournament and next day > EC would have been modified, and time was 20:00 before starting the > finals). They also asked me about this option. I confirmed that the guidelines would support this decision as well. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

"Jorge Ramírez" <jo...@r2sistemas.com> ha scritto nel messaggio news:535e0619.02120...@posting.google.com... > First of all I have to say that in the EC and the Austrian Qualifier, > the organization team from Vienna did a great work, LSJ as White Wolf > representative too. Organization was excellent and the place choosen > for the event was great. I think that the record of players in a > tournament was beaten (115 players). > > The only one problem "shadowing" the event happened in the Austrian > Qualifier finals at Saturday. I played the tournament, I was there, > very near. I was sitted at two metters from the judges when the > decklists of the two french players at the final where revised. This > is what happened: > <snip> > 5.- The two French players start to play in the finals. This was the > table order: > > - The Lasombra (Jeff) with a Lasombra/Embrace deck (It was great > Jeff!!!) > - An UK player with a Stanislava Bleed + Prot deck (Interesting, I > played against him in the last round of the EC) > - The second French player (not Stephan) with a CEL + Guns + Rush > Brujah Deck > - Stephane Lavrut with Turbo tzimisce War Ghoul Deck. > - An Euro Brujah Deck (I don't remember the nacionality of the player) > Italian: he's Carlo Daniele, from Turin <snipped the rest> ciao Emiliano, v:ekn Prince of Rome

On Tue, 3 Dec 2002 18:27:42 +0000 (UTC), "John Keech" <john.d...@virgin.net> wrote: >"Jorge Ramírez" <jo...@r2sistemas.com> wrote in message >news:535e0619.02120...@posting.google.com >*Snip the long report etc* >> I understand the position of the judges, this is very difficult to >> avoid. But it is sad that the two players wich had wrong decklists, >> played this way in the finals after they where given the oportunity to >> play instead of desqualification. >This seems to be a fair and reasonable account of what happened. The >judges made their decision and the players played their game. The game >is done, the result stands, and it has been discussed to death. I think >Jeff (The Lasombra) videoed the whole match, and it should appear on his >website for those who are still interested in going over the past. I only got the intro's of each player for that finals, I was almost out of battery power, and had to save the other battery for Sunday's final. As soon as I have anything ready to put up, you will be the first to know. Carpe noctem. Lasombra http://www.TheLasombra.com

thela...@hotmail.com (The Lasombra) wrote in message news:<1R2cnf_IvMv...@News.GigaNews.Com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I'd like to see the video from friday too ;)

>[...]. Being reasonable, before taking the final decision, they decide to ask the > players for the difference. --> That's wrong ! Stephane was about to be ousted. It's Kamel SENNI, another French guy, who has gone to say to him that there was a problem with his deck. When Stephane arrives in the room, Carl was about to announce that the French players were ousted. Please, don't lie ! > > First time asqued, Stephane Lavrut says that "may be, the fourth > Memories of Mortality was put inside my deck from other player's deck > in previous rounds". The judges ask then, where is the third direct > intervention?. Then there is a lot of confussion and weak explanations > and finally the french player says that he, from the beginning was > playing with 4 MoM and 2 DI. When the judges print his decklist with > the 3 MoM and the 3 DI, he brings a piece of paper printed and > MODIFIED WITH A PENCIL and begin to swear that he mistaked in the > decklist and that he bought the deck written from home with 4 MoM and > 2 DI. --> That's wrong too ! The decklist corrected with a pencil was the one he gave to organisation team in the morning. In fact, Stephane has corrected his decklist in the morning, when arriving at the tournament but he dropped a line. That's the truth !! [...] > 6.- After 12 turns, the first French player (guns + cel) had not did a > single bleed or rush agaist his prey (second French Player: Stephan). > He was all the time crying because "he was going to die" because of > the Anarch Revolts of the lasombra (he had 15 pool, 4 vampires, > Powerbase montreal and Hunting ground/blood doll). --> He was afraid to die because he had Stanislava as a predator, and when he started being afraid, he had 6 pools.... Meanwhile, his prey > (Stephane), brings out 3 war ghouls, and outs his prey (the > eurobrujah). Jeff does the same with the Stanyslava UK deck, and still > then, NOT A SINGLE BLEED OR RUSH AGAINST HIS PREY (STEPHANE). Then, > Stephane Lavrut begins to talk with the brujah FOR HIM TO RUSH THE > LASOMBRA VAMPIRES!!! in order to get the finals VP's. --> The same Brujah that he has just ousted ???? [...] > 8.- Once the two Frenchs where alone in the table, IN 3 TURNS, the > brujah deck destroys ALL the WarGhouls of Stephan, and sends ALL his > vampires into torpor and wins the only VP necessary to be the 2nd > qualified. > --> The Brujah has been ousted ! Pay attention to what you say ! [...] --> Jorge, please pay attention to what you say and say the truth...please... Franck B.

Franck wrote: [ quoted text not captured ] Jorge was referring to Jean Noel's Brujah. Carl

Carl Pilhatsch <carl.pi...@chello.at> wrote in message news:<3DF0A615...@chello.at>... > Franck wrote: > > > >[...]. Being reasonable, before taking the final decision, they > decide to ask the > > > players for the difference. > > > > --> That's wrong ! Stephane was about to be ousted. It's Kamel SENNI, > > another French guy, who has gone to say to him that there was a > > problem with his deck. > > When Stephane arrives in the room, Carl was about to announce that the > > French players were ousted. Please, don't lie ! It's true that it's me who go into the conclave room to call stephane, and princes who were in the conclave perhaps remember me entering the room, and trying to catch the attention of Stephane. I confirm the fact that the referee does not call the players. It was obvious for stephane and me that the decision was on the verge to be announced, but i can not swear it : Carl P. take the micro, then start to make an announcement (i remeber the words : "there is a changement...") , and was cut by stephane arrival. I can not swear that this announce was on the disqualification of any finalists. My opinion is that'swould have been happen. But it's only my opinion... And i'm Kamel SENNI, who can make the difference between reality, and opinion. Another thing : LSJ have respond to that: the final decision was in the hand of the referee who judge the right way, because... He was the judge, and his decision have the force of a law.