Camarilla Base Set LVPs: Library

These might be a bit more controversial than the crypt LVPs (halcyan, btw -- the stuff you disagreed with the most, like Cassandra, was the stuff with the lowest Suck rating - Cassie only had 1 star, which makes her practically an OK vampire. I got no beef with Cassie), if only because there isn't even the framework of a 'points system' for library cards. Not too much suck, all things considered. Again, things with more stars suck more. 1 star is "I'm pretty sure I could find someting else to put in." 5 stars is "I need this to patch the hole in the drywall." Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring a Discipline. 4.5 stars. Disarming Presence -- Decent effect, but just not good _enough_; there's always something stronger to put in. 2.5 stars. Drain Essence -- No torporizing punch; easier to Theft again. 2 Stars. Dread Gaze -- Doesn't guarantee vote failure; outclassed by Delaying Tactics. 2 stars. Growing Fury -- Second-round Potence strikes are too marginal. 3 stars. Mighty Grapple -- Just doesn't see use for some reason. 1 star. Movement of the Mind -- outclassed by Apportation. 4 stars. Pulling Strings -- See Dread Gaze. 1 star. Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. Well-aimed Car -- see Growing Fury. 3 stars. Wolf Companion -- outclassed by Murder of Crows. 3 stars. Blood Bond -- too focused, not useful long-term. 3 stars. Blood Puppy -- too fragile. 3 stars. Brainwash -- too conditional. 2 stars. Clan hosers -- too annoying and conditional. 5 stars. Chainsaw -- worthless. 5 stars. Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. Ante cards -- self-explanatory. 5 stars. Deal with the Devil -- almost never a desirable effect. 4 stars. Frenzy -- too corner-case, high opportunity cost. 4 stars. Hell Hound -- 2 pool can buy a lot of things that are more worth having. 4 stars. Illegal Search & Seizure -- too corner-case. 4 stars. Loyal Speed Bump -- really not worth 1 pool. 3 stars. Monocle of Clarity -- see Ante cards. 5 stars. Protracted Investment -- Too hard to make work; outclassed by Slave Auction, Secret Hoard. 5 stars. Rowan Ring -- worthless unless updated to mimic Paralyze rules a la (Wooden) Stake. 5 stars. Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power wise. 5 stars. Submachine Gun -- Inhabits awkward no-mans-land between .44 and Assault Rifle. 3 stars. HONORABLE MENTION: Betrayer -- not a weak card, but one I wouldn't like to see reprinted. It's only good in one deck. Lextalionis -- Would be on the Suck list if the Table Wins thing wasn't coming. Now, it's kind of handy for an upstreamer deck in the late to end game (ousting your prey's prey, Lextalionis for the killshot). Start yer complainin'. gomi -- Blood, guts, guns, cuts Knives, lives, wives, nuns, sluts

"Gomi no Sensei" <go...@panix.com> schrieb im Newsbeitrag news:9vs2v8$ej6$1...@panix2.panix.com... snip> > Again, things with more stars suck more. 1 star is "I'm pretty sure > I could find someting else to put in." 5 stars is "I need this to > patch the hole in the drywall." > > Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. i believe this card is worth putting in a deck. i have several decks with 9+ pot vampires (rush decks, lasombra decks) where they are used. while the advantage is not great almost everyone can use it. so the discipline requirement is not a real setback. something at superior would be nice though. maybe along the lines of: as pot above, and if this action is blocked this vampires gets an optional press. the following fits the theme of the card better but may be too powerful: as pot above, and a vampire blocking this card burn 1 blood before combat begins. > Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. i though so until my last tournament. but this vote can do some real damage to single clan decks. imagine you left some vampire untapped to bounce. and the your ventrue predator taps them all at once... > Submachine Gun -- Inhabits awkward no-mans-land between .44 and Assault > Rifle. 3 stars. agreed. i must say i never really understood why the submachine gun costed 4 pool for doing 3 damage. if believe it should cost only 3 pool. still it would be expensive enough, it can be stolen, destroyed and all that. compared to the .44, the sniper rifle and the mark 5 this reduced cost seems fair to me. along the same line of reasoning the assault rifle should cost 4 pool- on all the others i agree. regards, pallando

Dread Gaze -- Doesn't guarantee vote failure; outclassed by Delaying > Tactics. 2 stars. Useful when combining with cards like Elder kindred network or political backlash... >Well-aimed Car -- see Growing Fury. 3 stars. To actuallt throw a car at someone is the ultimate insult!! Style-points!> >Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > wise. 5 stars. I agree this card WAS worthless in Jyhad/VTES, if you were using princes, you almost always had votelock enough to burn the diblerizing vampire, but with all the archons going around, this is very nice to have IMHO... /Henrik Isaksson

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<9vs2v8$ej6$1...@panix2.panix.com>... > These might be a bit more controversial than the crypt LVPs (halcyan, > btw -- the stuff you disagreed with the most, like Cassandra, was > the stuff with the lowest Suck rating - Cassie only had 1 star, which > makes her practically an OK vampire. I got no beef with Cassie), if only > because there isn't even the framework of a 'points system' for library > cards. Not too much suck, all things considered. > > Again, things with more stars suck more. 1 star is "I'm pretty sure > I could find someting else to put in." 5 stars is "I need this to > patch the hole in the drywall." Problem is that a number of these suck cards have nice corner case utility. > > Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring > a Discipline. 4.5 stars. Cycling and the possibility to bail out seems a lot better to me. > Disarming Presence -- Decent effect, but just not good _enough_; there's > always something stronger to put in. 2.5 stars. Agreed. > Drain Essence -- No torporizing punch; easier to Theft again. 2 Stars. combines nicely with Anathema (and Blood to Water) > Dread Gaze -- Doesn't guarantee vote failure; outclassed by Delaying > Tactics. 2 stars. Very nice in Anarch revolt-Elder Kindred Network decks, alltough Kindred coercion is better. > Growing Fury -- Second-round Potence strikes are too marginal. 3 stars. > Mighty Grapple -- Just doesn't see use for some reason. 1 star. > Movement of the Mind -- outclassed by Apportation. 4 stars. > Pulling Strings -- See Dread Gaze. 1 star. Agreed to all. > Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. needs a superior. > Well-aimed Car -- see Growing Fury. 3 stars. > Wolf Companion -- outclassed by Murder of Crows. 3 stars. And Ghoul Retainer in a weapon deck. > Blood Bond -- too focused, not useful long-term. 3 stars. > Blood Puppy -- too fragile. 3 stars. > Brainwash -- too conditional. 2 stars. > Clan hosers -- too annoying and conditional. 5 stars. > Chainsaw -- worthless. 5 stars. OK > Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. There are still many people who play clan decks. > Ante cards -- self-explanatory. 5 stars. > Deal with the Devil -- almost never a desirable effect. 4 stars. For Draft tourneys, one of the best cards you can get. > Frenzy -- too corner-case, high opportunity cost. 4 stars. > Hell Hound -- 2 pool can buy a lot of things that are more worth having. > 4 stars. > Illegal Search & Seizure -- too corner-case. 4 stars. > Loyal Speed Bump -- really not worth 1 pool. 3 stars. > Monocle of Clarity -- see Ante cards. 5 stars. > Protracted Investment -- Too hard to make work; outclassed by Slave Auction, > Secret Hoard. 5 stars. > Rowan Ring -- worthless unless updated to mimic Paralyze rules a la (Wooden) > Stake. 5 stars. > Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > wise. 5 stars. You mean: the others are too strong. > Submachine Gun -- Inhabits awkward no-mans-land between .44 and Assault > Rifle. 3 stars. > > HONORABLE MENTION: > > Betrayer -- not a weak card, but one I wouldn't like to see reprinted. > It's only good in one deck. > > Lextalionis -- Would be on the Suck list if the Table Wins thing wasn't > coming. Now, it's kind of handy for an upstreamer deck in the late to end > game (ousting your prey's prey, Lextalionis for the killshot). > > Start yer complainin'. I agreed with most of what you said. Most of the corner case cards should be made rare, in the least. Jeroen

In article <5f0d2397.01122...@posting.google.com>, Jeroen <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote: >go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<9vs2v8$ej6$1...@panix2.panix.com>... >> Again, things with more stars suck more. 1 star is "I'm pretty sure >> I could find someting else to put in." 5 stars is "I need this to >> patch the hole in the drywall." >Problem is that a number of these suck cards have nice corner case >utility. True -- practically everything that isn't 5 stars has seen use _somewhere_. In terms of maximising playerbase, though, I think it'd be better to have every card be more broadly useful, at least at the uncommon/common rarity levels. >> Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring >> a Discipline. 4.5 stars. >Cycling and the possibility to bail out seems a lot better to me. It cycles just as well as Trap -- Trap isn't a 'do not replace'. Is giving up your ability to use equipment worth having the press be optional? You could just pack your own presses -- ANI comes with OBF, FOR, PRO, and POT, all of which supply some flavor of press. It's just not good enough to be worth a rare slot, I think. I'd be all into CtB if Trap didn't exist, but unless you have superior Animalism, CtB is like getting a Trap in your rare slot. >> Drain Essence -- No torporizing punch; easier to Theft again. 2 Stars. >combines nicely with Anathema (and Blood to Water) B2W combines nicely with anything, up to and including hand strikes. B2W plus Walk burns a vampire if you have superior THA, and you don't have to face the daunting task of passing an unpopular vote with a Tremere deck. With THA, B2W plus Drain removes 9 blood from a vampire; with a first-round theft, that's 11 blood, which makes it gross overkill in almost every case. >> Dread Gaze -- Doesn't guarantee vote failure; outclassed by Delaying >> Tactics. 2 stars. >Very nice in Anarch revolt-Elder Kindred Network decks, alltough >Kindred coercion is better. This is true; DG, Pulling Strings, and Kindred Coercion are all better combined with Political Backlash/EKN as a pool damage source than as a throw-in for political defence (particularly against naive vote decks which have only ConAg/KRC, which are Own0r3d by Delaying Tactics). >> Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. >needs a superior. Again, a case of 'it isn't BAD, it's just not good ENOUGH.' Marginal utility in a pot deck, but by and large it could vanish from the printing and not be missed. I'd like to see Growing Fury replaced by Increased Strength, Mighty Grapple by Relentless Pursuit, and Rampage by..something new? Lots of fertile ground in the idea of an action card for Potence. >> Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. >There are still many people who play clan decks. Yeah, this is true. I just hate the unreliability of it -- there's no telling if you'll be next to a Standard Ventrue Law Firm or Lasombra Partnership, or a rag-tag collection of whomever had the appropriate discipline. >> Deal with the Devil -- almost never a desirable effect. 4 stars. >For Draft tourneys, one of the best cards you can get. I'm sure, but I was focusing on constructed. I guess I don't play enough Draft, mostly because I suck at Drafting and drafting well is a totally orthogonal skill both to deckbuilding (which I'm pretty decent at) and deckplaying (which I'm only adequate at). >> Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power >> wise. 5 stars. >You mean: the others are too strong. That has been alleged before, but I don't agree. And even without the back- ground of the other Traditions, Sixth still sucks. Note that the introduction of similar effects in Bloodlines (read the winds, speak with spirits, concert tour, renewed vigor) has diluted some of the concentration of power in Camarilla Titles, as they no longer have an exclusive access to these effects. [ quoted text not captured ]

> B2W combines nicely with anything, up to and including hand strikes. > B2W plus Walk burns a vampire if you have superior THA, and you don't > have to face the daunting task of passing an unpopular vote with a Tremere > deck. No, it doesn't. B2W only burns allies, vampires must burn as much of their blood as required by the card. Comments Welcome, Norman S. Brown, Jr. XZealot Archon of the Swamp

X_Zealot wrote: > > > B2W combines nicely with anything, up to and including hand strikes. > > B2W plus Walk burns a vampire if you have superior THA, and you don't > > have to face the daunting task of passing an unpopular vote with a Tremere > > deck. > > No, it doesn't. B2W only burns allies, vampires must burn as much of their > blood as required by the card. That's probably why he included "plus Walk" above - empty the vampire with B2W and then burn him on the 2agg Walk of Flame. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>These might be a bit more controversial than the crypt LVPs (halcyan, >btw -- the stuff you disagreed with the most, like Cassandra, was >the stuff with the lowest Suck rating - Cassie only had 1 star, which >makes her practically an OK vampire. I got no beef with Cassie), Hey, no offense taken! Just gotta defend my ladies, if you know what I mean! =) >Disarming Presence -- Decent effect, but just not good _enough_; there's > always something stronger to put in. 2.5 stars. >Drain Essence -- No torporizing punch; easier to Theft again. 2 Stars. Agree on oboth of these. Drain Essence might be much better if it cost 1 or even no blood. >Dread Gaze -- Doesn't guarantee vote failure; outclassed by Delaying > Tactics. 2 stars. But Delaying Tactics just means you'll have to deal with that PTO or Kindred Restructure *next* turn. With a well-timed Dread Gaze or Pulling Strings, you can make sure that dead dies *now*. >Growing Fury -- Second-round Potence strikes are too marginal. 3 stars. >Mighty Grapple -- Just doesn't see use for some reason. 1 star. Second-round strikes aren't as bad for Potence, especially weenie potence. And I do see Mighty Grapple from time to time in weenie Potence decks. >Movement of the Mind -- outclassed by Apportation. 4 stars. Not at all! Apportations are great for combat Tremere, but not all Tremere decks are made for combat. I actually use Movement of the Mind much more often than I do Apportation (the manuevers and presses to end are helpful). >Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. Stealth is good if you steal a location that you want to see die. Also, Rampage (unlike Arson) is replaced immediately, which may be very important to potence combat decks. >Brainwash -- too conditional. 2 stars. Too annoying. >Clan hosers -- too annoying and conditional. 5 stars. Not necessarily. Malkavian Derangement is *extremely* powerful and is the only one that really sees any use. >Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. Can be *very* powerful if used right. Consanguineous Condemnation + Disarming Presence + Cryptic Rider. Follow up with some Domain Challenges or just bleed your way through. >Hell Hound -- 2 pool can buy a lot of things that are more worth having. > 4 stars. Like to see him cost 1 pool or free. >Illegal Search & Seizure -- too corner-case. 4 stars. But still potentially powerful. If your prey spends 5 pool to get an Assault Rifle, you can simply destroy the weapon, just like that. >Loyal Speed Bump -- really not worth 1 pool. 3 stars. Well, all he has to do is block a bleed and he's evened the cost. Since he has 2 life, he might very well block two weenie bleeds. >Rowan Ring -- worthless unless updated to mimic Paralyze rules a la (Wooden) > Stake. 5 stars. Would *love* to see it reprinted. If only to make the Jyhad version usable. >Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > wise. 5 stars. Don't that bad at all. Considering how many diablerie-fests are now possible (Muaziz, Theo, Samat, Tariq, Lithrac, and !Gangrel trickery), this (in addition to Crimson Fury) might make Tariq second-guess munching your torpored vampires. >Submachine Gun -- Inhabits awkward no-mans-land between .44 and Assault > Rifle. 3 stars. Yeah. .44 vs. Submachine Gun means you pay 2 pool for an extra 1R damage. I know a jump has to be somewhere, but the SMG just gets the short end of the stick. >Betrayer -- not a weak card, but one I wouldn't like to see reprinted. >It's only good in one deck. Actually, it has more of a use now. To supplement the Betrayer deck, you can now purposefully contest other people's vampires and take them with Clio's Kiss. Say good bye to your 11-pool investment of Arika... Halcyan 2

>> Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. >needs a superior. Not necessarily. Not every card needs to have a superior. See Thanks for the Donation and Infernal Familiar too as well. Halcyan 2

Regardless as to my particular comments, unless I say I would miss the card, I wouldn't. >Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring > a Discipline. 4.5 stars. Problem here is that the card doesn't suck (playwise). It may be mostly redundant, but it can be strictly better than Trap. >Disarming Presence -- Decent effect, but just not good _enough_; there's > always something stronger to put in. 2.5 stars. In theory, a combo card with Domain Challenge. Course, you see that every day. >Drain Essence -- No torporizing punch; easier to Theft again. 2 Stars. I'd rate this much worse. What about Cauldron of Blood? Now, I would rate Drain above Cauldron. >Dread Gaze -- Doesn't guarantee vote failure; outclassed by Delaying > Tactics. 2 stars. Anti-vote, in general, has all sorts of issues. If shooting down votes wasn't a waste of space in most decks, this card would be important. I don't see Presence losing a card like this. >Growing Fury -- Second-round Potence strikes are too marginal. 3 stars. >Mighty Grapple -- Just doesn't see use for some reason. 1 star. I see Mighty Grapple played occasionally. >Movement of the Mind -- outclassed by Apportation. 4 stars. I use Movement fairly often and not because I don't own enough Apportations. First, not every Thaumaturgy deck is offensively inclined; some just want to get their Theft in. Second, when all of your vamps have THA, you generally use these for maneuvers and the Apportations for presses ... unless you are playing against a deck that will kick your ass in multiple rounds in which case having a Movement is useful. Probably going on to long about this, but I recall a game where I was playing THA/For against a more typical second round Tha deck. I Trapped a couple of times and Movemented out of them because I was trying to cycle combat cards to get some damage prevention (to stop Walk of Flame). >Pulling Strings -- See Dread Gaze. 1 star. I see this in deck lists. I think I've maybe seen it played once in the five and a half years I've been playing. >Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. >Well-aimed Car -- see Growing Fury. 3 stars. Growing Fury is so inane because it's really, really easy to hit for a lot at short range with Potence. Hitting for a lot at long requires some effort. >Wolf Companion -- outclassed by Murder of Crows. 3 stars. The only good reason I've ever heard for playing this over Murder is that Murder is rare. >Blood Bond -- too focused, not useful long-term. 3 stars. >Blood Puppy -- too fragile. 3 stars. >Brainwash -- too conditional. 2 stars. Amazingly obnoxious. No reason for cards like this in the game. >Clan hosers -- too annoying and conditional. 5 stars. >Chainsaw -- worthless. 5 stars. >Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. >Ante cards -- self-explanatory. 5 stars. >Deal with the Devil -- almost never a desirable effect. 4 stars. >Frenzy -- too corner-case, high opportunity cost. 4 stars. High opportunity cost? Just because it's an OOT master? But, it's generic anti-equipment. Note that there's a deck up on gameplayersnetwork.com which has a couple of these in it. Someone seems to think it has some minimal value. >Hell Hound -- 2 pool can buy a lot of things that are more worth having. > 4 stars. >Illegal Search & Seizure -- too corner-case. 4 stars. Not a fair card either. Actually, this is a hoser. Hosers don't belong in CCGs. >Loyal Speed Bump -- really not worth 1 pool. 3 stars. >Monocle of Clarity -- see Ante cards. 5 stars. >Protracted Investment -- Too hard to make work; outclassed by Slave Auction, > Secret Hoard. 5 stars. >Rowan Ring -- worthless unless updated to mimic Paralyze rules a la (Wooden) > Stake. 5 stars. >Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > wise. 5 stars. We've had this played in one of our tournaments. Amusing story around that involving playing it on an ally's Archon! For thematic reasons, I can't see this disappearing. >Submachine Gun -- Inhabits awkward no-mans-land between .44 and Assault > Rifle. 3 stars. > >HONORABLE MENTION: > >Betrayer -- not a weak card, but one I wouldn't like to see reprinted. >It's only good in one deck. > >Lextalionis -- Would be on the Suck list if the Table Wins thing wasn't >coming. Now, it's kind of handy for an upstreamer deck in the late to end >game (ousting your prey's prey, Lextalionis for the killshot). Hmm. I guess I don't care if any of these are reprinted.

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20011220144658...@mb-fq.aol.com>... [knocking on Cassandra] > Hey, no offense taken! Just gotta defend my ladies, if you know what I mean! > =) Of course, *I* still think she's over-costed. :P Yeah, she's got nice specials, but she doesn't stand out in any way. > Drain Essence might be much better if it cost 1 or even no blood. Yeah, if reprinted, hopefully it will cost less. The chance of getting to second round was highly over-estimated in the original design. > But Delaying Tactics just means you'll have to deal with that PTO or Kindred > Restructure *next* turn. With a well-timed Dread Gaze or Pulling Strings, you > can make sure that dead dies *now*. I agree with Gomi, mostly. Yes, you have to deal with it again. But it *always* works. Dread Gaze and the DOM vote-stoppers are nice, but but if you're facing any sort of *real* voting deck, you'll be shot down, unless your deck is also heavy-vote. What I'd really like is to see DT made into some sort of discipline card, and maybe powered up a little. :) > Second-round strikes aren't as bad for Potence, especially weenie potence. And > I do see Mighty Grapple from time to time in weenie Potence decks. Seconded, but I still can never comprehend it when I see it. ;) [Gomi] > >Movement of the Mind -- outclassed by Apportation. 4 stars. > > Not at all! Apportations are great for combat Tremere, but not all Tremere > decks are made for combat. I actually use Movement of the Mind much more often > than I do Apportation (the manuevers and presses to end are helpful). Yes, but the Tremere already have enough presses to end with Auspex, and there's a lot more Movement of the Mind out there and available to players than Apportation. I'd just like to see it reprinted so that there are more in circulation. [Rampage] > Stealth is good if you steal a location that you want to see die. Also, There are so few locations that I can steal *and* want to see die, that this will virtually never come up. Maybe High Museum of Art, Atlanta, but probably not even that. If it's (D) stealable, why did you take it in the first place? If it's not, what effect does it have while in play that you really can't handle having around? > Rampage (unlike Arson) is replaced immediately, which may be > very important to potence combat decks. Important, but not important enough that having a superior wouldn't be nice. At least a press or a maneuver or something... [Clan Hosers] > Not necessarily. Malkavian Derangement is *extremely* powerful and is > the only one that really sees any use. Unless you're playing with Ben Peal. :) Seriously though, I guess it's okay that they included the clan hosers in the recent sets, but I think that it's kind of an annoying tradition that could be dropped. Do *you* really see Malks that much? I hardly ever see them here, except when Dave plays them at tournaments... > >Rowan Ring -- worthless unless updated to mimic Paralyze rules a la (Wooden) > > Stake. 5 stars. > > Would *love* to see it reprinted. If only to make the Jyhad version usable. Agreed. Can't remember the Wooden Stake wording, but it'd actually be nice to see it just brought into line with Coma/Entombment. Rowan Ring Weapon Strike: send the opposing vampire to torpor. If this strike is successful, place the Rowan Ring on that vampire and tap that vampire. Or something like that. [Sixth Tradition] > Don't that bad at all. Considering how many diablerie-fests are now possible > (Muaziz, Theo, Samat, Tariq, Lithrac, and !Gangrel trickery), this (in > addition to Crimson Fury) might make Tariq second-guess munching your > torpored vampires. True, but you still have to have it in your hand when it happens (or nearly so), and then you have to get the action off. How many is anyone realistically going to put in a deck? Though I do like the concept of lowly Volker frying Samat Ramal-ra. :) > >Submachine Gun -- Inhabits awkward no-mans-land between .44 and Assault > > Rifle. 3 stars. > > Yeah. .44 vs. Submachine Gun means you pay 2 pool for an extra 1R damage. I > know a jump has to be somewhere, but the SMG just gets the short end of the > stick. Could be reprinted at slightly lower pool cost or with an additional ability...extra maneuver, maybe a press. [Betrayer] > Actually, it has more of a use now. To supplement the Betrayer deck, you can > now purposefully contest other people's vampires and take them with Clio's > Kiss. Say good bye to your 11-pool investment of Arika... Ummmmm...I guess. Though that's more of a use of the huge crypt and Recruitment than a use for Betrayer. I agree with Gomi...it's amusing, but not worthwhile to reprint. I mean, we had people clawing at each other for copies of DotS, but how many newbies do you know of that are dying for Betrayers (or even know the card exists)? Xian

In message <dbc1153.01122...@posting.google.com>, xb...@qwest.net (Xian) mumbled something about: >halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20011220144658...@mb-fq.aol.com>... >> But Delaying Tactics just means you'll have to deal with that PTO or Kindred >> Restructure *next* turn. With a well-timed Dread Gaze or Pulling Strings, you >> can make sure that dead dies *now*. > >I agree with Gomi, mostly. Yes, you have to deal with it again. But >it *always* works. Dread Gaze and the DOM vote-stoppers are nice, but >but if you're facing any sort of *real* voting deck, you'll be shot >down, unless your deck is also heavy-vote. What I'd really like is to >see DT made into some sort of discipline card, and maybe powered up a >little. :) Actually, if you have Kindred Coercion in your deck, THAT particular card shuts votes down with a big iron sledgehammer. There's just something about Quentin facing down the entire Ventrue Law Firm and winning that tickles my weasel. (Quentin cancels Democritus' votes with his inherent special, then uses Kindred Coercion to change Emerson Bridges' and Sir Walter Nash's votes to "against" -- with Quentin's own Bishop title, it's now 5 to 5 failing, even if the Ventrue have Queen Anne AND Timothy Crowley out as well. And Quentin only had to spend 3 blood and one card to do it.) >> Second-round strikes aren't as bad for Potence, especially weenie potence. And >> I do see Mighty Grapple from time to time in weenie Potence decks. > >Seconded, but I still can never comprehend it when I see it. ;) *shrug* If you're not relying on IG, it makes a good pair-up with Torn Signpost... 4 first round, press, 3 second round, for only two cards. >There are so few locations that I can steal *and* want to see die, >that this will virtually never come up. Maybe High Museum of Art, >Atlanta, but probably not even that. If it's (D) stealable, why did >you take it in the first place? If it's not, what effect does it have >while in play that you really can't handle having around? I've Rampaged my own Powerbase: Montreal on several occasions, just so that I won't have to constantly waste actions taking it back AND watch the rest of the table gain pool at the same time. -- "Grod come smash THAT vampire now."

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20011220144658...@mb-fq.aol.com... -snip- > >Loyal Speed Bump -- really not worth 1 pool. 3 stars. > > Well, all he has to do is block a bleed and he's evened the cost. Since he has > 2 life, he might very well block two weenie bleeds. Well, you still have to waste an action, which can be a devastating rush or a cool vote (anathema) to fetch those bunch of thugs. And they don't even bleed ! I really think it's a waste of time. Maybe in a memories of mortality deck ? > >Rowan Ring -- worthless unless updated to mimic Paralyze rules a la (Wooden) > > Stake. 5 stars. > > Would *love* to see it reprinted. If only to make the Jyhad version usable. Yes ! the paralyze rule disappeared, but is is clearly well continued on the last edition of wooden Stake. So why a new version of the Rowan Ring ? is it so powerful ? it cannot be used IG, can be stolen, destroyed... And the strike can be dodged... But i agree you can do cheesy combos involving Tariq/Samat/Lithrac, disguised weapon and Amaranth =) > >Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > > wise. 5 stars. > > Don't that bad at all. Considering how many diablerie-fests are now possible > (Muaziz, Theo, Samat, Tariq, Lithrac, and !Gangrel trickery), this (in addition > to Crimson Fury) might make Tariq second-guess munching your torpored vampires. I think you should add som gain to the card -like the acting prince or justicar gains two blood from the diablerist =) > >Betrayer -- not a weak card, but one I wouldn't like to see reprinted. > >It's only good in one deck. > > Actually, it has more of a use now. To supplement the Betrayer deck, you can > now purposefully contest other people's vampires and take them with Clio's > Kiss. Say good bye to your 11-pool investment of Arika... Hum... I don't agree there. Betrayer was nice at the early beginning of the game, when you had a small number of vampires to choose from. Now we have plenty of vamps and odds are you won't going to contest. If a vamp is so good either, you won't let it in your uncontrolled region and influence him. Betrayer is now very weak. Maybe it could be far better if you could play Betrayer choosing any vampire in your whole crypt ? > Halcyan 2

Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<62452u0365mhr78cd...@4ax.com>... [vote-stoppers] > Actually, if you have Kindred Coercion in your deck, THAT particular > card shuts votes down with a big iron sledgehammer. There's just Oh, I know. I didn't mention (by name) mainly because it requires *older* vampires. > (Quentin cancels Democritus' votes with his inherent special, then uses > Kindred Coercion to change Emerson Bridges' and Sir Walter Nash's votes > to "against" -- with Quentin's own Bishop title, it's now 5 to 5 > failing, even if the Ventrue have Queen Anne AND Timothy Crowley out as > well. And Quentin only had to spend 3 blood and one card to do it.) Heh. Again, yes, it's good, yes it's the one I usually play with, but it still doesn't stack up against DT in many ways, because it's only usable against younger vampires. Which means you're playing with big ones, which means you usually have votes too. [Mighty Grapple] > *shrug* If you're not relying on IG, it makes a good pair-up with Torn > Signpost... 4 first round, press, 3 second round, for only two cards. And why *aren't* you relying on IG? :) It's fine in and of itself (I was chastising people for not playing one last night...Blood Brothers with no presses? Insane!), but it's just generally outclassed by other cards. If you're playing pot/cel, why not Torn Signpost/Blur for 2 cards? If mono-pot, why not Torn Signpost/Pushing the Limit(or Undead Strength)? [Rampaging your own locations] > I've Rampaged my own Powerbase: Montreal on several occasions, just so > that I won't have to constantly waste actions taking it back AND watch > the rest of the table gain pool at the same time. So why were you playing it in the first place? :) I don't think I ever denied that it *might* come in handy at some point, but if that +1 stealth *is* handy, there's something rotten in the state of Denmark... Xian hehe...the second best ELDB splash tip is the one about you, Derek...

In message <dbc1153.01122...@posting.google.com>, xb...@qwest.net (Xian) mumbled something about: >Derek Ray <lor...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<62452u0365mhr78cd...@4ax.com>... >[vote-stoppers] >> Actually, if you have Kindred Coercion in your deck, THAT particular >> card shuts votes down with a big iron sledgehammer. There's just > >Oh, I know. I didn't mention (by name) mainly because it requires >*older* vampires. ...Or the same age. :) If I have DOM, unless all my guys are 4-caps with inferior Dominate or something, I'll generally have a couple Kindred Coercion in the deck. Really shuts down those pesky build-your-own Presence vote decks that rely on BO... maybe you can't get the two titled vamps, but you can sure take Gideon's four votes and turn them your way :) >Heh. Again, yes, it's good, yes it's the one I usually play with, but >it still doesn't stack up against DT in many ways, because it's only >usable against younger vampires. Which means you're playing with big >ones, which means you usually have votes too. Yeah, but just because you happen to have one big-ass Prince or Archbishop doesn't mean that you'll be able to outvote the bugger with two Princes who just dropped an Awe on the vote. It's superb at erasing vote modifiers, especially as a surprise. >[Mighty Grapple] >> *shrug* If you're not relying on IG, it makes a good pair-up with Torn >> Signpost... 4 first round, press, 3 second round, for only two cards. > >And why *aren't* you relying on IG? :) "Only two cards" means that while you're a bit more vulnerable to S:CE and other combat, you also have a lot more room in your deck to put "oust people" cards in, or "not get ousted" cards. And you can always cycle both cards even if they DO play S:CE, so you're not hurting on that front. >It's fine in and of itself (I was chastising people for not playing >one last night...Blood Brothers with no presses? Insane!), but it's >just generally outclassed by other cards. If you're playing pot/cel, >why not Torn Signpost/Blur for 2 cards? If mono-pot, why not Torn >Signpost/Pushing the Limit(or Undead Strength)? TS/Blur requires two disciplines, of course, and unless you have superior in both, only does 6 points of damage (and still costs you 2 blood overall). TS/PtL only does 6 points and still costs you 2. TS/US only does 5 points. TS/MG does 7 points, and you can always splash a couple Growing Fury into the deck for that special Second Round Surprise. TS/MG does, of course, have the weakness of "press to end", but fortunately MG's inferior says "press" on it, so odds are you'll have another one of those in hand. And if you're going POT/FOR with the Gargoyles, say... (ah, now you see where this is coming from =) ... you also have access to Circle and Hidden Strength, and definitely want to be using fewer cards overall so that you have room for your FOR prevent =) >[Rampaging your own locations] >> I've Rampaged my own Powerbase: Montreal on several occasions, just so >> that I won't have to constantly waste actions taking it back AND watch >> the rest of the table gain pool at the same time. > >So why were you playing it in the first place? :) Because it's a Master that reads "Gain 1 pool, and 1 for every turn people forget it's on the table." =) And in a beat-shit-up deck, it's a great excuse to go pick a fight with someone... if they don't block, then you just gained another pool. It's when you reach that point in the game where other players NOT gaining pool is worth more than you gaining pool that you want it to go away. :) >I don't think I ever denied that it *might* come in handy at some >point, but if that +1 stealth *is* handy, there's something rotten in >the state of Denmark... > >Xian >hehe...the second best ELDB splash tip is the one about you, Derek... Shush. =P [ quoted text not captured ]

> Again, things with more stars suck more. 1 star is "I'm pretty sure > I could find someting else to put in." 5 stars is "I need this to > patch the hole in the drywall." were gonna disagree on a few or these > Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring > a Discipline. 4.5 stars. Really really good to be able to back out of the trap sometimes, also works best in a ravnos CHI/ANI intercept combat deck. This, some crows, and an apparition. > Dread Gaze -- Doesn't guarantee vote failure; outclassed by Delaying > Tactics. 2 stars. Except in large numbers, combined with DOM effects and Elder Kindered Network in an Anarchs Deck. mmm... Ventrue. > Mighty Grapple -- Just doesn't see use for some reason. 1 star. The press is useful if your using pre-range power boosts in a mono pot (low on manuvers) deck > Pulling Strings -- See Dread Gaze. 1 star. ditto > Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. great card. one or two in every pot using deck. > Blood Puppy -- too fragile. 3 stars. but free, and they gain nothing for destroying it... > Brainwash -- too conditional. 2 stars. Use with liberal assortments of Path of Paradox, The Trick of the Danya, and Superior Reality. Piss people off beyond all belief. (GO BJ!!!) > Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. A good solid vote, try it to tap all those nasty gargoyles... > Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > wise. 5 stars. Kill Muaziz with this card, watch the person who diablirized "safely" weep. Cameron

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<9vs2v8$ej6$1...@panix2.panix.com>... > Movement of the Mind -- outclassed by Apportation. 4 stars. True, but easier to find... would be better to have Apportation in the base set. > Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. No no no! This is a clan hoser for the clan you're facing. It's not at all conditional as you should always be able to tap at least 1-2 vampires. > Deal with the Devil -- almost never a desirable effect. 4 stars. I guess I'm the only person who sees the use in this card. 2 stars tops. > Loyal Speed Bump -- really not worth 1 pool. 3 stars. Outclassed by weapons dealer. > Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > wise. 5 stars. The traditions aren't that good in general except for 2nd and 5th. 3rd and 4th are 'ok,' but have non-title equivalents that are easier to use (the embrace) or just plain better (GtU). I have yet to see someone show me how 1st is going to consistently win games.

In message <8f507d2e.01122...@posting.google.com>, smci...@onesourcecorp.com (Shaun McIsaac) mumbled something about: >The traditions aren't that good in general except for 2nd and 5th. >3rd and 4th are 'ok,' but have non-title equivalents that are easier >to use (the embrace) or just plain better (GtU). I have yet to see >someone show me how 1st is going to consistently win games. 4th Tradition: very useful for Nosferatu, Toreador, etc. vote decks who want to be able to "Govern" without having access to Dominate. In Gangrel and Ventrue vote decks, can stack with GtU for the famous "Govern down, freak drive, 4th down" action. 3rd Tradition: throwing 2-3 of these in an "all big fuckers" deck will generally give you the spare actions you need to survive or win. They suck as far as disciplines go, but they can call votes, become Princes, commit diablerie, and bleed for 1. Better than Embrace because it doesn't have to hunt (intercept decks prefer to block the Embrace's hunt action, meaning you spent 2 blood for a vamp in torpor -- this way you force them to try for THIS action instead). 1st Tradition: Play big-ass obf/DOM Princes/Justicars. Minion Tap/5th Tradition, Forgotten Labyrinth for stealth. Make sure at least 2 of these are in play at any given time. Eventually you will be the only person who can take a turn. Your actions that aren't 5th or 1st Traditions should be stealth bleeds. It works well. [ quoted text not captured ]

(Thanks to James, I am no longer posting via Google, and have sweet sweet good happy normal non-web-based access. Thanks, James!) [Kindred Coercion] > ...Or the same age. :) Blah, blah, blah. Minor nitpick. :P > Yeah, but just because you happen to have one big-ass Prince or > Archbishop doesn't mean that you'll be able to outvote the bugger with > two Princes who just dropped an Awe on the vote. It's superb at erasing > vote modifiers, especially as a surprise. Oh, I totally agree, and I keep meaning to use it on a certain player in the area that drops Awes into his "one big current vote deck" whenever he rips apart the old one and makes a new one. But most of the time against those decks, DT works just fine too. [2-card combat combo] > TS/Blur requires two disciplines, of course, and unless you have > superior in both, only does 6 points of damage (and still costs you 2 > blood overall). But it's fun! :) > TS/PtL only does 6 points and still costs you 2. > > TS/US only does 5 points. Quicker, though. > TS/MG does 7 points, and you can always splash a couple Growing Fury > into the deck for that special Second Round Surprise. Hahahahah!!!! Growing Fury! :) Also, please never ever use the phrase "special Second Round Surprise" again. I got really scary images. :P Anyway, I personally prefer to have all of my combat rounds functionally the same (Tremere excepted), because then you don't end up with a Growing Fury jamming your hand first round, then when you finally ditch it at the end of the turn, find that your next card was a Mighty Grapple, and wail and gnash your teeth, shaking your fists at the heavens. > And if you're going POT/FOR with the Gargoyles, say... (ah, now you see > where this is coming from =) ... you also have access to Circle and > Hidden Strength, and definitely want to be using fewer cards overall so > that you have room for your FOR prevent =) Heh. Can I stick my fingers in my ears now and say "I'm not listening!" yet? [PB:Montreal] > Because it's a Master that reads "Gain 1 pool, and 1 for every turn > people forget it's on the table." =) And in a beat-shit-up deck, it's True. Still, I don't like the whole "waste an action on something else when I could be bleeding or beating something up." Yes, pool gain is good. That PB could also just be a DotS or something. :) Carrying this debate past the point of reason, it seems. Anyway, yeah, I mostly agrees with youse, but most of the combos you mention would only happen in my decks if I was out of other Potence stuff. C'est la vie. Xian

Again, things with more stars suck more. 1 star is "I'm pretty sure I could find someting else to put in." 5 stars is "I need this to patch the hole in the drywall." Spin sez: a few that most would not defend/have not defended: Brainwash -- too conditional. 2 stars. It is one basis of a couple fairly marginal Prey-freezing decks; may be more interesting with the additional denial provided by Temporis... Clan hosers -- too annoying and conditional. 5 stars. This is the one I disagree strongly with. IF you have enough optional discard/cycle, some of the better clan hosers can make the cut. Particularly Brujah Frenzy is usable in what i think is (still) a europrince-heavy environment. MalkyD, OutofControl, Corruption's Purge, Tradition Upheld, TragicLuv, MistakenID, jackal, even Detection and BestialVisage are cheap and possibly mean enough in the right local metagame; Akhenaten and Kherebutu might be in the right deck anyway, and are hosers as well; ditto Aire of Elation, the most used "clan hoser." (Of these, only Malkavian Dementia, Brujah Frenzy, Tragic Love Affair, Tradition Upheld, and Aire of Elation possibly belong in the Camarilla Base Set.) Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. 1 or 2 stars, if not a decent card. In addition to crosstable/upstream slowdown/bullying, a vote that taps at least 1 vamp can be very useful... Deal with the Devil -- almost never a desirable effect. 4 stars. I'm already on record as liking this in new vote push and whispers/carlotta toolbox, as well as the already-mentioned value in sealed-deck. Deal with the Devil's Advocate, -spinney Better Late Than Never - Master - cost:3 pool Burn a Master Card in play. "Suddenly, I realized I couldn't Sudden everything I needed to..."

oh, mi gawd. i'm on permabrainfart, apparantly. do vampires get altzheimers? as my bro said, Did you ever use Aire of Elation? It can't be, but i was thinking it worked AGAINST toriador controller... Hope the butterfly ballots for idiot-of-the-day haven't been re-counted as mandated by law. (and they haven't...) -sorry spinney

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: I mostly agree, but: >Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring > a Discipline. 4.5 stars. Bah! If you have Superior Ani and don't intend to use equipment, this is just plain better than Trap. >Brainwash -- too conditional. 2 stars. You wouldn't say that if you had ever been on the receiving end of it... :-(

In article <3c25d2c4....@news.algonet.se>, Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> wrote: >go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: > >I mostly agree, but: > >>Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring >> a Discipline. 4.5 stars. > >Bah! If you have Superior Ani and don't intend to use equipment, this >is just plain better than Trap. Is it better ENOUGH to warrant making an all ANI crypt, when you can just get smaller vampires and use Trap instead? I don't think so. Many of the objections so far boil down to 'hey, the card's not useless.' And they're right, of course -- many, if not all, of the cards I listed aren't useless. But that's not the standard I want applied to the new Camarilla Base Set. Think of the player reaction of Conquer the Beast had never been printed, and had just come out as a R1 in Bloodlines. I think people would be either underwhelmed or actively upset to get a CtB in their Bloodlines R1 slot. And that's the standard I want applied -- every card a wanted card, not just a 'good enough' card. >>Brainwash -- too conditional. 2 stars. > >You wouldn't say that if you had ever been on the receiving end of >it... :-( It makes life hell for one prey. Then it falls down. It's also -3 Fun. Now, if it were something like: Brainwash Master 2 pool Not usable if you have a Brainwash in play. Put this card on a vampire controlled by your prey. Move the vampire with this card to its controller's uncontrolled area; transfers may not be made to this vampire. Any minion may burn this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. <the above cardtext is in the public domain> That's a card that would see use at all phases of the game. Probably worth more than 2 pool. Maybe as high as 4 pool -- it's an awfully strong effect. But maybe just 3. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 23 Dec 2001 16:42:55 -0500, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: [Conquer the Beast] >Is it better ENOUGH to warrant making an all ANI crypt, when you can just >get smaller vampires and use Trap instead? I don't think so. As long as you have an all ani/ANI crypt, and don't plan to use equipment, it's better in all ways than Trap. Now, on the question on whether it warrants a card slot, you have a good point - it's not different enough to be interesting to print. >Many of the >objections so far boil down to 'hey, the card's not useless.' And they're >right, of course -- many, if not all, of the cards I listed aren't >useless. Yeah, but this one's actively better than the card you compared it to in most cases where you can use it. >Brainwash >Master >2 pool >Not usable if you have a Brainwash in play. Put this card on a vampire >controlled by your prey. Move the vampire with this card to its controller's >uncontrolled area; transfers may not be made to this vampire. Any minion may >burn this card as a +1 stealth (D) action. > ><the above cardtext is in the public domain> > >That's a card that would see use at all phases of the game. Probably worth >more than 2 pool. Maybe as high as 4 pool -- it's an awfully strong effect. >But maybe just 3. It'd be comparable to Pentex Subversion, I think. Being able to use one of either would be exceedingly nasty in some decks. And what's wrong with just designating it as unique? ;-) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Johan Lundstrom <jo...@algonet.se> "Nothing succeeds like excess"

jo...@algonet.se (Johan Lundstrom) wrote in message news:<3c2655fb....@news.algonet.se>... > On 23 Dec 2001 16:42:55 -0500, go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote: > > [Conquer the Beast] > >Is it better ENOUGH to warrant making an all ANI crypt, when you can just > >get smaller vampires and use Trap instead? I don't think so. > > As long as you have an all ani/ANI crypt, and don't plan to use > equipment, it's better in all ways than Trap. Now, on the question on > whether it warrants a card slot, you have a good point - it's not > different enough to be interesting to print. > Not true. Trap is superior to the [ani] version in that the press is "environmental", so you can cancel it with a press of your own. So, CtB is different from Trap in that a) it requires a discipline, b) doesn't allow you to use weapons, c) doesn't allow you to cancel the press at [ani], and d) allows you to only use the press if you want to at [ANI]. So, the only way it is better than Trap is that *if* you have ANI, and you don't use equipment, and you actually want to not use your press (which is unlikely to happen... if you didn't want the press, you wouldn't play the card... don't tell me that unexpected things can happen in combat, because 99% of the time, you have a pretty good idea if you want to go to additional rounds or not). So, CtB is a superior card only if you have 0 equipment in your deck and either a) all of your vampires have ANI, or b) all of your vampires have [ani] and some have [ANI] and you have no other presses in your deck. And in this situation, it is superior in a way which will only be useful the 1% of the time where your vamp has [ANI] and you think you will want multiple rounds, but it turns out that you want combat to end. It's true that CtB *can* be better than Trap, but the use of it is *so* situational, and Trap is better in so many other scenarios that CtB is definitely wallpaper. Even people that actually use it would almost always be either better off or just as well off with Trap, but they are just too dense to realize that.

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<9vs2v8$ej6$1...@panix2.panix.com>... > Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring > a Discipline. 4.5 stars. Should be at least 5 stars. Maybe 6. 8) > Mighty Grapple -- Just doesn't see use for some reason. 1 star. I use these all the time... mainly because of fortitude. Usually 3 to 4 in a 90 card deck. Although 1 star for uselessness doesn't seem entirely out of line, as it is a *little* bit weak. An one of the only potence utility cards, though, I think it deserves a little leeway. > Blood Puppy -- too fragile. 3 stars. Very good in intercept decks. I'm surprised I don't see more of this card, personally. Just like Powerbases, it doesn't require master actions to gain pool, and gives you actions to block. And a *good* intercept deck doesn't have as much problem with 2 VP Syndrome as some people seem to think. > Deal with the Devil -- almost never a desirable effect. 4 stars. A *very* good card for Giovanni decks, especially now with Agaitas (for getting rid of useless cards from your opponent's deck - the other way of trying to use DwtD and Agaitas is, of course, illegal). Also great in sealed decks, and halfway decent in decks that have a large primary combo. > Frenzy -- too corner-case, high opportunity cost. 4 stars. Not really that bad. Great in sealed decks, although admittedly not that good in constructed. Maybe 2 or 3 stars, IMHO.

halc...@aol.com (Halcyan 2) wrote in message news:<20011220145059...@mb-fq.aol.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] I meant: "needs a superior to justify needing a discipline, considering that Arson already exists" I thought that was clear from context. Jeroen

go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<9vt7vo$c8i$1...@panix1.panix.com>... > In article <5f0d2397.01122...@posting.google.com>, > Jeroen <joen...@hotmail.com> wrote: > >go...@panix.com (Gomi no Sensei) wrote in message news:<9vs2v8$ej6$1...@panix2.panix.com>... > > > >> Drain Essence -- No torporizing punch; easier to Theft again. 2 Stars. > >combines nicely with Anathema (and Blood to Water) > > B2W combines nicely with anything, up to and including hand strikes. > B2W plus Walk burns a vampire if you have superior THA, and you don't > have to face the daunting task of passing an unpopular vote with a Tremere > deck. With THA, B2W plus Drain removes 9 blood from a vampire; with a > first-round theft, that's 11 blood, which makes it gross overkill in > almost every case. Hey, I tried a deck like this once, and it worked (kinda). You need the trem with presence +princes with skill cards. Burn Arika the first turn she's out and gain 11 pool. BTW, Funny combat combo: Thoughts Betrayed, Majesty, Telepathic Tracking, B2W and if nesecary Drain essence. > > >> Dread Gaze -- Doesn't guarantee vote failure; outclassed by Delaying > >> Tactics. 2 stars. > >Very nice in Anarch revolt-Elder Kindred Network decks, alltough > >Kindred coercion is better. > > This is true; DG, Pulling Strings, and Kindred Coercion are all better > combined with Political Backlash/EKN as a pool damage source than as > a throw-in for political defence (particularly against naive vote decks > which have only ConAg/KRC, which are Own0r3d by Delaying Tactics). > > >> Rampage -- Minimal advantage vs. Arson. 3 stars. > >needs a superior. > > Again, a case of 'it isn't BAD, it's just not good ENOUGH.' Marginal > utility in a pot deck, but by and large it could vanish from the > printing and not be missed. I'd like to see Growing Fury replaced by > Increased Strength, Mighty Grapple by Relentless Pursuit, and Rampage > by..something new? Lots of fertile ground in the idea of an action > card for Potence. > > >> Consanguineous Condemnation -- see clan hosers. 4 stars. > >There are still many people who play clan decks. > > Yeah, this is true. I just hate the unreliability of it -- there's > no telling if you'll be next to a Standard Ventrue Law Firm or Lasombra > Partnership, or a rag-tag collection of whomever had the appropriate > discipline. > I once went to a tourney with a clan impersonation - clan loyalty deck, and strangely enough, i reached the finals. OK, this is a couple of years ago. > >> Deal with the Devil -- almost never a desirable effect. 4 stars. > >For Draft tourneys, one of the best cards you can get. > > I'm sure, but I was focusing on constructed. I guess I don't play enough > Draft, mostly because I suck at Drafting and drafting well is a totally > orthogonal skill both to deckbuilding (which I'm pretty decent at) and > deckplaying (which I'm only adequate at). I suck at drafting too. And that's exactely why DwD is a good card. Jeroen

xb...@qwest.net (Xian) wrote in message news:<dbc1153.01122...@posting.google.com>... > > > But Delaying Tactics just means you'll have to deal with that PTO or Kindred > > Restructure *next* turn. With a well-timed Dread Gaze or Pulling Strings, you > > can make sure that dead dies *now*. > > I agree with Gomi, mostly. Yes, you have to deal with it again. But > it *always* works. Dread Gaze and the DOM vote-stoppers are nice, but > but if you're facing any sort of *real* voting deck, you'll be shot > down, unless your deck is also heavy-vote. What I'd really like is to > see DT made into some sort of discipline card, and maybe powered up a > little. :) > Of course, playing you Delaying Tactics AFTER your oponents Awe sill make it harder for him to play the same vote again next turn. And robs his chances to play a Voter Captivation.

Gomi No Sensei wrote: >Conquer the Beast -- Replicates Trap, not better enough to merit requiring > a Discipline. 4.5 stars. Whoah! You definitely underrated (overrated?) that one (and, BTW, you are welcome to send me all your spares that you are thinking ot patching the drywall with). The superior version has a definite advantage over Trap in that the press is optional. This certainly matters. One can get it out of one's hand at the beginning of combat without worry, draw your next card, play a bunch cards more, and then decide how long you want the combat to last. The cards deficiciencies do not matter in the right deck. >Wolf Companion -- outclassed by Murder of Crows. 3 stars. While Murder of Crows is more used currently, Wolf Companion has definite advantages over it. If you plan to be at close range anyway, Wolf Companion may be the better choice. People rarely target retainers, but if they did, that extra life would make them MUCH harder to destroy. >Hell Hound -- 2 pool can buy a lot of things that are more worth having. > 4 stars. I'd rather not see these guys discontinued. They are hardly much worse than other non-unique allies that don't require a clan, and they are somewhat helped out by the various ally-boosting cards currently in the game. They still need some means of gaining intercept to be worthwhile, but this is something that could happen as new cards are printed. >Loyal Speed Bump -- really not worth 1 pool. 3 stars. But balanced relative to other Brujah allies. Do you want them all discontinued? >Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > wise. 5 stars. Unlikely to be discontinued for thematic reasons. There have to be Six Traditions. There also better than they used to be, since they can be stored in Storage Annexes with no loss of opportunity. Wouldn't mind seeing it enhanced, though. >Submachine Gun -- Inhabits awkward no-mans-land between .44 and Assault > Rifle. 3 stars. It's a good candidate for exclusion primarily because it has been reprinted in the Sabbat sets

Johan wrote: >[Conquer the Beast] >>Is it better ENOUGH to warrant making an all ANI crypt, when you can just >>get smaller vampires and use Trap instead? I don't think so. > >As long as you have an all ani/ANI crypt, and don't plan to use >equipment, it's better in all ways than Trap. Now, on the question on >whether it warrants a card slot, you have a good point - it's not >different enough to be interesting to print. Right. It is a specialized-use card, which, IMHO, is the sort of card that SHOULD be in rare slots. It is the kind of card you don't mind being rare because you don't need them in all your decks - only in a handful of specialized ones. Those that don't use the card can trade it to those who do, and the folks who want it can have as many as they need. -- John Whelan

> > Sixth Tradition -- too corner-case, not in line with other Traditions power > > wise. 5 stars. > > The traditions aren't that good in general except for 2nd and 5th. > 3rd and 4th are 'ok,' but have non-title equivalents that are easier > to use (the embrace) or just plain better (GtU). I have yet to see > someone show me how 1st is going to consistently win games. 4th is good for non dominate princes (there are princes that are not Ventrue, loath as I am to admit it.) Further the Venrue can use it with freakdrive for +2 fun... 8 blood on a younger uncontrolled vamp with 4th, GtU and Scouting. (Oh and two freakdrives... but whatever.) 3rd kids don't have to hunt right away (when the embrace is really vulnerable) I've got a lot of 1st trads, I'm thinking something involving Malks, out of Turn, massive bleeds, homunculus, blood gain, Con Condemnations... oooh maybe its a fattie gangrel deck. 6th kills Muaziz, or an Etrius who ate someone with vote lock. Cameron