cr...@Ra.MsState.Edu (Charles Richard Robb) writes:
Patrick M. O'Malley (oma...@convex.com) wrote:
>: A guy I play with has been fine-tuning this combination for weeks now,
but
>: the same rules question comes up every time he uses it. Does anyone
know
>: of a ruling that applies to this situation?
The net opinion is that Fame is a monstrosity and should be banned or
drastically changed. There are two proposed changes to Fame (check LSJ's
house rules list), both of which fix this particular problem. Even
Wizards (normally slow to recognize problem cards in both their games) has
now restricted Fame to 1 in tournaments.
>: Bring out Merill Molitor (Tremere, can change 1 damage from aggravated
to
>: normal each combat), and put Vast Wealth and a couple Fames on him.
Play
>: The Chantry. Use Vast Wealth to equip Talbot's Chainsaw on Merill.
>: During untap, Merill does 3 damage to himself, ultimately putting him
>: in torpor. Prey takes 6 damage from Fame when this happens.>Fame has been ruled as non-cumulative...
They reversed it back and it's currently cumulative.
>: Here's the loop: Merill goes to torpor from the TC during untap, with
Fame
>: doing 6 damage to his prey. During the master phase, he comes out of
torpor
>: via the Chantry. This cycle repeats until prey is ousted.>Just hope that noone goes in a diablerizes him before your MAster
phase...
He's only in torpor from his controller's untap to his controller's minion
phase. There's no opportunity to diablerize.
>: Question: can Merill perform an action after he comes out of torpor?
He
>: is untapped, and although he has no blood the TC card says that if the
>: bearer is ready and untapped, it can attack any minion as a D action.
>: This situation seems to be an instance of the Golden Rule for Cards,
but
>: some of us aren't sure that the TC wording is meant to allow the bearer
>: to perform an action with zero blood.
A TC holder with no blood may take no action other than hunt (rules) and
cannot hunt (card), so he just sits there.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
A guy I play with has been fine-tuning this combination for weeks now, but
the same rules question comes up every time he uses it. Does anyone know
of a ruling that applies to this situation?
Bring out Merill Molitor (Tremere, can change 1 damage from aggravated to
normal each combat), and put Vast Wealth and a couple Fames on him. Play
The Chantry. Use Vast Wealth to equip Talbot's Chainsaw on Merill.
During untap, Merill does 3 damage to himself, ultimately putting him
in torpor. Prey takes 6 damage from Fame when this happens.
Here's the loop: Merill goes to torpor from the TC during untap, with Fame
doing 6 damage to his prey. During the master phase, he comes out of torpor
via the Chantry. This cycle repeats until prey is ousted.
Question: can Merill perform an action after he comes out of torpor? He
is untapped, and although he has no blood the TC card says that if the
bearer is ready and untapped, it can attack any minion as a D action.
This situation seems to be an instance of the Golden Rule for Cards, but
some of us aren't sure that the TC wording is meant to allow the bearer
to perform an action with zero blood.
(Why, you may ask, did the other players let this situation arise in the
first place? Well, two players were playing Malkavians, I was playing
Brujah (with no way to burn vampires in combat), and the only deck that could
have burned the Tremeres (Gangrels) was sitting opposite him at the beginning
of the game. I ended up winning one game by torporing and diablerizing all
the Tremeres, but Merill won the other game when he got 3 Fames on him and
blew through 3 players in 3 turns with the torpor/Fame/Chantry trick.)
Pat
oma...@convex.com
Patrick M. O'Malley (oma...@convex.com) wrote:
: A guy I play with has been fine-tuning this combination for weeks now, but: the same rules question comes up every time he uses it. Does anyone know
: of a ruling that applies to this situation?: Bring out Merill Molitor (Tremere, can change 1 damage from aggravated to
: normal each combat), and put Vast Wealth and a couple Fames on him. Play
: The Chantry. Use Vast Wealth to equip Talbot's Chainsaw on Merill.
: During untap, Merill does 3 damage to himself, ultimately putting him
: in torpor. Prey takes 6 damage from Fame when this happens.
Fame has been ruled as non-cumulative...
: Here's the loop: Merill goes to torpor from the TC during untap, with Fame: doing 6 damage to his prey. During the master phase, he comes out of torpor
: via the Chantry. This cycle repeats until prey is ousted.
Just hope that noone goes in a diablerizes him before your MAster phase...
: Question: can Merill perform an action after he comes out of torpor? He: is untapped, and although he has no blood the TC card says that if the
: bearer is ready and untapped, it can attack any minion as a D action.
: This situation seems to be an instance of the Golden Rule for Cards, but
: some of us aren't sure that the TC wording is meant to allow the bearer
: to perform an action with zero blood.
As long as he has blood, he can act. The thing to do is use a lesser vamp like
a 2 cap. one.
: (Why, you may ask, did the other players let this situation arise in the: first place? Well, two players were playing Malkavians, I was playing
: Brujah (with no way to burn vampires in combat), and the only deck that could
: have burned the Tremeres (Gangrels) was sitting opposite him at the beginning
: of the game. I ended up winning one game by torporing and diablerizing all
: the Tremeres, but Merill won the other game when he got 3 Fames on him and
: blew through 3 players in 3 turns with the torpor/Fame/Chantry trick.)
Who cares about burning vamps. Just put them all in torpor and then intercept
their hunt or their coming out of torpor. If they are blocked coming out, you
can burn them. If you block the hunt, they go back again....
Smashing Tremeres has been easy for me with my Brujah/ Toreador deck. I can
easily put a 7 cap. vamp into torpor by round 3. Also use Arson, Bomb, or
Unnatural Disaster to eliminate that Chantry...
oma...@convex.com (Patrick M. O'Malley) wrote:
> Question: can Merill perform an action after he comes out of torpor? He
> is untapped, and although he has no blood the TC card says that if the
> bearer is ready and untapped, it can attack any minion as a D action.
> This situation seems to be an instance of the Golden Rule for Cards, but
> some of us aren't sure that the TC wording is meant to allow the bearer
> to perform an action with zero blood.
Peace Pat,
Officially, a minion which is empty (zero blood) and is wielding TC may
NOT perform any actions, even if ready and untapped.
Nil carborundum illigitimi,
James R. McClure Jr.
The OS/2 Apostle
<insert disclaimer here>
In <3m26t0$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) writes:
>>: Question: can Merill perform an action after he comes out of torpor?>He>>: is untapped, and although he has no blood the TC card says that if the
>>: bearer is ready and untapped, it can attack any minion as a D action.
>>: This situation seems to be an instance of the Golden Rule for Cards,>but>>: some of us aren't sure that the TC wording is meant to allow the bearer
>>: to perform an action with zero blood.>A TC holder with no blood may take no action other than hunt (rules) and>cannot hunt (card), so he just sits there.
But the TC card says he *can* attack a minion with the chainsaw if he is
ready and untapped; it doesn't say he has to have blood on him. Isn't this
a case of the Golden Rule for Cards, where the card text overrides the
normal rule requiring him to hunt?
Pat
In article <3mbggp$m...@zeppelin.convex.com>,
Patrick M. O'Malley <oma...@convex.com> wrote:
>>A TC holder with no blood may take no action other than hunt (rules) and
>>cannot hunt (card), so he just sits there.>
>But the TC card says he *can* attack a minion with the chainsaw if he is
>ready and untapped; it doesn't say he has to have blood on him. Isn't this
>a case of the Golden Rule for Cards, where the card text overrides the
>normal rule requiring him to hunt?
This is one of the Design Team rulings that most of us agree
with: a vampire equipped with TC who is empty (no blood) can take no
actions, becasue the only action available is forbidden to him.
| If you've got a hot lead on a new | *--Joe--*
| PC game, call the announce line at | js...@vt.edu
| ** csi...@discus.ise.vt.edu ** |
+-------------------------------------+----------------------------------
"Carnivores, oy!" -- Timon, TLK
oma...@convex.com (Patrick M. O'Malley) writes:
>In <3m26t0$3...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) writes:>>>: Question: can Merill perform an action after he comes out of torpor?>>He>>>: is untapped, and although he has no blood the TC card says that if the
>>>: bearer is ready and untapped, it can attack any minion as a D action.
>>>: This situation seems to be an instance of the Golden Rule for Cards,>>but>>>: some of us aren't sure that the TC wording is meant to allow the bearer
>>>: to perform an action with zero blood.>>A TC holder with no blood may take no action other than hunt (rules) and>>cannot hunt (card), so he just sits there.>But the TC card says he *can* attack a minion with the chainsaw if he is
>ready and untapped; it doesn't say he has to have blood on him. Isn't this
>a case of the Golden Rule for Cards, where the card text overrides the
>normal rule requiring him to hunt?
No. It gives him an added action to choose from. Like AoR saying he (as one
of the "any minions") could burn the army as a (D) action.
It does not relieve him of his obligation to hunt if he has no blood.
(Similarily, and empty vampire could not attempt to burn the AoR, since he
would have to hunt).
It (Talbot's C-saw) does, however prevent him from hunting (card text).
So: he must hunt and cannot. He does nothing.
(official answer from Tom, BTW).
oma...@convex.com (Patrick M. O'Malley) writes:
>>A Talbot's Chainsaw holder with no blood may take no action other than
hunt
>>(rules) and cannot hunt (card), so he just sits there.>But the TC card says he *can* attack a minion with the chainsaw if he is
>ready and untapped; it doesn't say he has to have blood on him. Isn't
this
>a case of the Golden Rule for Cards, where the card text overrides the
>normal rule requiring him to hunt?
The card doesn't say he can take the action; it says he does take the
action. Your position is tenable (does on the card overriding cannot in
the rules), but the official ruling is that it doesn't (the card doesn't
specify that this action overrides the restrictions on actions - e.g.,
bearer can't go off, if ready, in another's turn). Six of one, half dozen
of the other, we go with the official rule.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
On 10 Apr 1995, Joseph Cochran wrote:
> This is one of the Design Team rulings that most of us agree
> with: a vampire equipped with TC who is empty (no blood) can take no
> actions, becasue the only action available is forbidden to him.
>
Simple fix for this - blood doll -> give him blood in torpor, bring him
out, and hack n' slash :-)
-tony Prince of Iowa City