I realize this may be opening up a can of worms (that were feasting on a
dead horse?), but I'm new to the group, and couldn't find a FAQ
mentioning this, so.....
I see a lot of references to the rules disputes between the VEKN and the
NJL. Could someone please tell me (preferably in a neutral fashion) what
they are? I.e., exactly what rules do the two groups disagree on?
(I gather from recent posts that the VEKN observes the "official"
rules?)
Thanks,
-David
Amad...@compuserve.com wrote:
> I realize this may be opening up a can of worms (that were feasting on a
> dead horse?), but I'm new to the group, and couldn't find a FAQ
> mentioning this, so.....
>
> I see a lot of references to the rules disputes between the VEKN and the
> NJL. Could someone please tell me (preferably in a neutral fashion) what
> they are? I.e., exactly what rules do the two groups disagree on?
The rules used by NJL can be found on their web site:
http://members.xoom.com/VTES/
The differences are:
* Agg damage (NJL uses "agg damage will burn a healthy vampire
unless he spends a blood" instead of the official rules wherein agg
damage will only burn a wounded vampire)
* NJL uses "(D) actions can be directed at any other Meth." instead
of the official rule that actions can target only the targets given
by card and/or rule text.
* NJL uses the original form of the Golden Rule of Card Ownership:
that cards owned by a player are removed when she is ousted,
regardless of who controls them.
* NJL uses full vote pushing (each Meth can burn any number of
PA cards during a referendum) with the errata that PAs burned for
votes are not replaced until the end of the turn (or minion phase?).
*NJL uses alternate forms of errata on Pulled Fangs, Return to
Innocence, Ritual of the Bitter Rose, Rutor's Hand, and Second
Tradition
* NJL doesn't use the official errata on (i.e., they "play as printed")
Fame, Beast, Immortal Grapple, Living Manse, Zip Guin, Mind Rape,
Wooden Stake, and Wake With Evening's Freshness.
* NJL uses alternate an alternate ruling on Betrayer.
> (I gather from recent posts that the VEKN observes the "official"
> rules?)
V:EKN supports DCI tournaments, which by definition observe
the official rules.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
LSJ wrote:
> * NJL uses full vote pushing (each Meth can burn any number of
> PA cards during a referendum) with the errata that PAs burned for
> votes are not replaced until the end of the turn (or minion phase?).
Correction. End of turn, for all players.
> *NJL uses alternate forms of errata on Pulled Fangs, Return to
> Innocence, Ritual of the Bitter Rose, Rutor's Hand, and Second
> Tradition
> * NJL doesn't use the official errata on (i.e., they "play as printed")
> Fame, Beast, Immortal Grapple, Living Manse, Zip Guin, Mind Rape,
> Wooden Stake, and Wake With Evening's Freshness.
Fame is still treated as unique. and we use a Zip Gun, not a Zip Guin.
:)
> * NJL uses alternate an alternate ruling on Betrayer.
> > (I gather from recent posts that the VEKN observes the "official"
> > rules?)
> V:EKN supports DCI tournaments, which by definition observe
> the official rules.
> --
> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) VTES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
> Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and DCI (tournament) rules:
> http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep
Raille
ps good job LSJ, seem you are keeping up with what were doing.
LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
>> Amad...@compuserve.com wrote:
>> I realize this may be opening up a can of worms (that were feasting
>> on a dead horse?), but I'm new to the group, and couldn't find a FAQ
>> mentioning this, so.....
The VTES FAQ can be found at:
http://whitestar.ddg.com/vtes/vtesfaq.html>> I see a lot of references to the rules disputes between the VEKN
>> and the NJL. Could someone please tell me (preferably in a neutral
>> fashion) what they are? I.e., exactly what rules do the two groups
>> disagree on?
Scott (LSJ) has brought up the current differences in rulings and I will
add comments to his observations. If you're interested in a quick
history of how the NJL came to be and the current relationship between
us and the VEKN, see:
http://x26.deja.com/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=597943483
It's no longer about infighting so much as an agremeent to disagree
between one group and another.
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> The rules used by NJL can be found on their web site:
> http://members.xoom.com/VTES/
> The differences are:
>
> * Agg damage (NJL uses "agg damage will burn a healthy vampire
> unless he spends a blood" instead of the official rules wherein agg
> damage will only burn a wounded vampire)
A more precise way of putting it is that all damage, aggravated or
otherwise, results in loss of blood. If a vampire take more aggravated
damage than it has blood it is burned. Note that this is the VTES
printed rulebook method.
> * NJL uses "(D) actions can be directed at any other Meth." instead
> of the official rule that actions can target only the targets given
> by card and/or rule text.
This was a temp rule that Bernie was putting in for a tournament. He was
attempting to use this as a defacto rule, but we have long ago decided
that until a decision could be reached by our rules team on any issue
that we would use the DCI rule. This issue should be decided fairly
soon.
> * NJL uses the original form of the Golden Rule of Card Ownership:
> that cards owned by a player are removed when she is ousted,
> regardless of who controls them.
Yep.
> * NJL uses full vote pushing (each Meth can burn any number of
> PA cards during a referendum) with the errata that PAs burned for
> votes are not replaced until the end of the turn (or minion phase?).
End of current turn. Result has been a balance against Presence with a
reasonable limitation on vote pushing that prevents the Pander vote deck
from getting out of hand.
> *NJL uses alternate forms of errata on Pulled Fangs, Return to
> Innocence, Ritual of the Bitter Rose, Rutor's Hand, and Second
> Tradition
Correct. See the page for details.
> * NJL doesn't use the official errata on (i.e., they "play as> printed") Fame, Beast, Immortal Grapple, Living Manse, Zip Gun,> Mind Rape, Wooden Stake, and Wake With Evening's Freshness.
Use the most recent printing.
> * NJL uses alternate an alternate ruling on Betrayer.
If I remember correctly, the net result is pretty much the same. The
only difference is the "if the controlled vampire is burned, so is the
Betrayer card" ruling. In our case, the card becomes inactive until
someone activates the vampire again.
>> (I gather from recent posts that the VEKN observes the "official"
>> rules?)> V:EKN supports DCI tournaments, which by definition observe
> the official rules.
Correct with one small exception. DCI no longer supports VTES
tournaments since White Wolf now has control of the game instead of
WotC.
Noal McDonald
National Jyhad League Rules Team Member
--
"I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion."
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
--George W. Bush
Don't vote for a son of a Bush.
[ quoted text not captured ]
Raille wrote:
> > * NJL doesn't use the official errata on (i.e., they "play as printed")> > Fame, Beast, Immortal Grapple, Living Manse, Zip Guin, Mind Rape,> > Wooden Stake, and Wake With Evening's Freshness.
>> Fame is still treated as unique.
Right - which isn't errata, assuming you use the rule that the
most recent card text is to be used for all (un-errata'ed) cards.
The only errata to Fame is that the controller (not the prey)
loses pool when the vamp goes to torpor. (That being the errata
that the NJL doesn't use).
> ps good job LSJ, seem you are keeping up with what were doing.
The web site makes that job fairly trivial. But thanks.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules:
http://www.geocities.com/vtesrep
Noal McDonald wrote:
> LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote:
> >> Amad...@compuserve.com wrote:
> >> I realize this may be opening up a can of worms (that were feasting
> >> on a dead horse?), but I'm new to the group, and couldn't find a FAQ
> >> mentioning this, so.....> > * NJL uses "(D) actions can be directed at any other Meth." instead
> > of the official rule that actions can target only the targets given
> > by card and/or rule text.
>
> This was a temp rule that Bernie was putting in for a tournament. He was
> attempting to use this as a defacto rule, but we have long ago decided
> that until a decision could be reached by our rules team on any issue
> that we would use the DCI rule. This issue should be decided fairly
> soon.
Sorry - the wording on the web page led me to believe that the rule
was in effect, albeit on a "temporary" basis.
> >> (I gather from recent posts that the VEKN observes the "official"
> >> rules?)
> > V:EKN supports DCI tournaments, which by definition observe
> > the official rules.
>
> Correct with one small exception. DCI no longer supports VTES
> tournaments since White Wolf now has control of the game instead of
> WotC.
AFAIK, the DCI still supports VTES tournaments.
They may not be sanctioning any newly announced tourneys, but the
ones that are already sanctioned will, as I understand the situation,
still be supported. This includes the DCI tournaments scheduled for
Origins and Gen*Con this coming July and August. If that changes, I'll
post the new information here on this newsgroup.
DCI tournaments are still DCI tournaments, and V:EKN still supports
them (and will until WW gets a replacement system into place, I
suspect).
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8b5jak$hfs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
LSJ >> (I gather from recent posts that the VEKN observes the "official"
> >> rules?)V:EKN supports DCI tournaments, which by definition observe> > the official rules.
>
> Correct with one small exception. DCI no longer supports VTES
> tournaments since White Wolf now has control of the game instead of
> WotC.
Wrong again Noal.
DCI supports VTES tournaments until June/July.
They are providing tournament prize support and sanctioning,
up until then, and I am running tournaments in May (Austin)
and June (Dallas) that have both received sanctioning and
prize support.
Carpe Noctem.
Lasombra
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra[ quoted text not captured ]
> > Correct with one small exception. DCI no longer supports VTES
> > tournaments since White Wolf now has control of the game instead of
> > WotC.
>
> Wrong again Noal.
> DCI supports VTES tournaments until June/July.
>> Lasombra
*sighs*
You knew what I meant. VTES is being phased out by DCI this year. After
GenCon, that's it. Except for the prize support (which I'm honestly
surprised by as I was under the impression that the well went dry at
least a year ago) is there any real benefit to DCI sanctioning or
support? Player ratings? Nope, that's VEKN. Rulings? Nope, that's
LSJ. And let's face it, even if LSJ wasn't the "official" net rep, he'd
still be the guy most of you would listen to.
You may as well call it VEKN sanctioned tournaments. After all, they've
done far more for the game in terms of support in the last two years
than DCI/WotC. DCI sanctioning hasn't meant dick to me in a long time
and with good reason. While they've done everything possible to sweep
VTES under the rug and ignore it, Robert Goudie and LSJ have done an
admiral job of keeping the game from dying outside of Michigan. Any
token nod towards the game from DCI has only been an acknowledgment of
their efforts instead of making any effort on their own.
Call it DCI supported if you like. As near as I can tell, DCI hasn't
supported the game since shortly after Sabbat was issued.
Noal McDonald
National Jyhad League
--
"I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion."
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
--George W. Bush
Don't vote for a son of a Bush.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8b62sd$tnr$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
> Correct with one small exception. DCI no longer supports VTES
> tournaments since White Wolf now has control of the game instead of
> WotC.
> >
> > Wrong again Noal.
> > DCI supports VTES tournaments until June/July.> You knew what I meant. VTES is being phased out by DCI this year.> After GenCon, that's it. Except for the prize support (which I'm
> honestly surprised by as I was under the impression that the well
> went dry at least a year ago) is there any real benefit to DCI
> sanctioning or support? Player ratings? Nope, that's VEKN. Rulings?
> Nope, that's LSJ. And let's face it, even if LSJ wasn't the
> "official" net rep, he'd still be the guy most of you would listen to.
(snip good points)
> Call it DCI supported if you like. As near as I can tell, DCI hasn't
> supported the game since shortly after Sabbat was issued.
DCI support for tournaments hasn't changed since I worked
for Wizards of the Coast back in the summer of 1997. The
only thing DCI did was provide an option for "sanctioning"
which only the organizer's and convention organizer's worried
about.
You said they no longer support tournaments.
I said they are doing exactly what they always did.
Sanction & provide prize support.
I have never had problems getting either from them,
and I have judged / organized two tournaments a year
since leaving their employ.
You could have had the same at every Michigan tournament
with no problem, no one at WOTC or in the DCI had a clue
what was going on online with the rules 9 times out of 10,
and I expect that would have continued had they had any
interest in continuing with the product.
When Wizards opened their first Game Center in Seattle,
they didn't even carry Sabbat for the first 2 months,
until I badgered them into buying cards for some of my
playgroup.
We all know WOTC's support for the community and the game
are shabby, that's why there has been so much enthusiam
for WW's response.
But to say that DCI no longer supports tournaments, when
they are still doing the exact same thing they have done
for the last 2+ years, is incorrect.
Carpe Noctem.
Lasombra
http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra[ quoted text not captured ]
>> Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>> You knew what I meant. VTES is being phased out by DCI this year.
>> After GenCon, that's it. Except for the prize support (which I'm
>> honestly surprised by as I was under the impression that the well
>> went dry at least a year ago) is there any real benefit to DCI
>> sanctioning or support? Player ratings? Nope, that's VEKN. Rulings?
>> Nope, that's LSJ. And let's face it, even if LSJ wasn't the
>> "official" net rep, he'd still be the guy most of you would listen
>> to.>> Call it DCI supported if you like. As near as I can tell, DCI hasn't
>> supported the game since shortly after Sabbat was issued.>The Lasombra <TheLa...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> We all know WOTC's support for the community and the game
> are shabby, that's why there has been so much enthusiam
> for WW's response.
>
> But to say that DCI no longer supports tournaments, when
> they are still doing the exact same thing they have done
> for the last 2+ years, is incorrect.
As a former employee, you should know that DCI _is_ WotC. You can't
have it both ways. Either WotC/DCI support is either shabby amd without
any substantive value or it's not.
> DCI support for tournaments hasn't changed since I worked
> for Wizards of the Coast back in the summer of 1997.
DCI didn't sanction VTES games for quite a while up until early 1998.
Prior to that, WotC sent out prize support but that was it. No player
ratings, no national competition, nothing else. Here's a box of
goodies, have a blast.
I also run sanctioned tournaments several times a year. Prior to the
forming of the NJL, I ran at least three DCI sanctioned tournaments per
year. Before DCI support, WotC sent a prize package including a box of
Sabbat (or AH) a slew of booster packs of each expansion, a t-shirt, a
signed card, a bunch of promo cards, a copy of Darkness Unveiled and a
poster. And this was for a local university con.
After DCI began "supporting" the game, the prize support at Origins 98,
one of the most high visibility places to run a tournament, what was the
prize package for which about 25-30 people signed up at $15 (I think)
each? A box of Sabbat. That's it. Pardon me while I jump for joy.
*hop exactly one inch* Of course, prize support at Origins has always
been abysmal and I'd be interested to know what they're sending out
these days to the local cons.
As for "sanctioning" tournaments? Whoopty do, I get the official DCI
stamp of approval. Like I need it. Hell, AFAIK they don't even bother
to list VTES tournaments on the DCI website. (I can't verify this right
now as their "Tournament Finder" page is down.)
Everything else that defines the VTES community like player ratings,
global communication between playgroups, tournament organizing &
advertizing and setting rules has frankly been done in spite of
WotC/DCI's efforts to sweep the game under the rug. You really can't
deny that. If that's what you call support, I'd hate to see the size of
the holes in your jock strap. *grin*
> You could have had the same at every Michigan tournament
> with no problem,
Prior to the NJL, we did. After we formed, we decided that we would no
longer seek WotC/DCI prize support because we were no longer playing by
their rules. Seemed a bit hypocritical to do otherwise. Besides, we
were more than capable of handling our own prize support.
> no one at WOTC or in the DCI had a clue what was going on online
> with the rules 9 times out of 10,
...and _this_ is considered supporting the game?!? *shakes head*
Y'know, you're doing a good job of making my case for me. *wry grin*
Semantics aside, I think we can both agree that WotC/DCI support, in
whatever form you managed to beg, borrow and steal, left a lot to be
desired. If White Wolf gives us 1% of the support it gives to its other
products, it will be a 1000% improvement over what we've been getting
for years.
Noal
--
"I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion."
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
--George W. Bush
Don't vote for a son of a Bush.
[ quoted text not captured ]
The Lasombra wrote:
> You could have had the same at every Michigan tournament> with no problem, no one at WOTC or in the DCI had a clue> what was going on online with the rules 9 times out of 10,> and I expect that would have continued had they had any
> interest in continuing with the product.
>
I tried to tell Noal this a couple time, but that was back awhile and he
still had a chip on his shoulder. :)
>
> Carpe Noctem.
>
> Lasombra
>
> http://members.tripod.com/~Lasombra
Raille
rai...@mich.com wrote:
> I tried to tell Noal this a couple time, but that was
> back awhile and he still had a chip on his shoulder. :)
Actually, it was the way you approached the discussion, Dave, that
pissed me off. Esp. since it followed the first time I had played a
Jyhad game in any form since Feb 99. I wasn't the only person that was
highly irritated with you after that.
Either way, past bickering isn't relevent here and it's not worth
reliving in any forum of discussion.
[ quoted text not captured ]
> Semantics aside, I think we can both agree that WotC/DCI support, in
> whatever form you managed to beg, borrow and steal, left a lot to be
> desired. If White Wolf gives us 1% of the support it gives to its
other
> products, it will be a 1000% improvement over what we've been getting
> for years.
As I see it now, WW will support VTES strongly.
Also, the VEKN will take on a stronger role.
However, I really would like to have reasonable heads from the NJL as
VEKN Princes. I still think that it would be best for the community to
join forces. :)
I appreciate your efforts for VTES, you really do a great job, and I
think that you would be a valuable addition to the other Princes. I
believe that you could do a lot inside the VEKN (if you wanted to).
The doors are open, you know. :)
Carl Pilhatsch
(VEKN membership director)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Mon, 20 Mar 2000 20:04:53 GMT, bi...@my-deja.com wrote:
>In article <8b5jak$hfs$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,> Noal McDonald <dhar...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>LSJ >> (I gather from recent posts that the VEKN observes the "official">> >> rules?)V:EKN supports DCI tournaments, which by definition observe
>> > the official rules.
>>>> Correct with one small exception. DCI no longer supports VTES
>> tournaments since White Wolf now has control of the game instead of
>> WotC.>
>Wrong again Noal.
>
>DCI supports VTES tournaments until June/July.
>>They are providing tournament prize support and sanctioning,
>up until then, and I am running tournaments in May (Austin)
>and June (Dallas) that have both received sanctioning and
>prize support.
This is not actually as clear as it seems, at least not in the UK.
The WotC UK were told to return all remaining product and merchandise
to the US, and were told to stop support for VtES. After much hounding
by me, they have come back and said they they have approval to
continue to help with VtES tournaments.
Hence, in the UK we have theoretical support, but nothing tangible.
For regular tournaments we are short on prize support until further
notice (although WW have offered prizes for GenCon UK later this
year).
Others in the VEKN say they've had more positive responses from WotC
US. There's no word yet AFAIK what the line is for WotC Europe.
From all my recent correspondence I get the impression that all may
not well within the ranks WotC right now. (Also bear in mind they have
recently acquired the license for the Star Wars RPG).
Regards,
Mike Nudd
VEKN Prince of London
mi...@vekn.org.uk ; mi...@darkness.org.uk
Noal McDonald wrote:
> > You could have had the same at every Michigan tournament
> > with no problem,
>> Prior to the NJL, we did. After we formed, we decided that we would no
> longer seek WotC/DCI prize support because we were no longer playing by
> their rules. Seemed a bit hypocritical to do otherwise. Besides, we
> were more than capable of handling our own prize support.
We've had several very nice trophies to award to winners, just for the
record.
Raille
prea...@utanet.at wrote:
> As I see it now, WW will support VTES strongly.
> Also, the VEKN will take on a stronger role.
I'm still not sure how much support WW will give VTES compared to its
other products...but it certainly can't give it less support than we're
used to. *wry grin*
As for the VEKN's role, how could it become stronger? As I've stated
previously, the only thing it doesn't currently do is sanction
tournaments (although it does that in practice, if not in name) and
issue prize support (something I expect WW to handle). What other
things can you see VEKN do?
> However, I really would like to have reasonable heads
> from the NJL as VEKN Princes.
Well...that leaves me out. *grin* You know what I'm like before I've
had my coffee.
> I still think that it would be best for the community
> to join forces. :)
If that comes at the cost of people not playing the game at all, I can't
agree. While some of us have softened our stance since the 7/7 rulings,
(remember...I was one of the most vocal opponents to 6/23 & 7/7 and one
of the people that pushed hardest for us to seperate from the rest of
the community) many have not. If the NJL playgroups decide as a whole
that it would be best for _us_ to join the VEKN, then we will. Until
that time, I'll continue to function in my current role.
> I appreciate your efforts for VTES, you really do a great job, and I
> think that you would be a valuable addition to the other Princes. I
> believe that you could do a lot inside the VEKN (if you wanted to).
> The doors are open, you know. :)
*blushes* Thanks, Carl.
*gets behind podium* I'd like to thank the Academy and all of my fans
for making this possible and further, I'd like to...
Heh. Me, a prince. You do know that all those silly titles that I
claim, like "The Great Googily Moogily" is nothing more than me making
light of the prince titles, don't you? Personally, I thought that the
title was a bit silly. Still do, really.
As an aside, I took the title of TGGM after one of the guys in my area
ran a Vampire LARP wherein he had written in the sign-up form, "This is
a game about vampires. If you ask us if you can be a werewolf, mummy,
fairy, demon or any other Great Googily Moogily of the White Wolf
universe, we will kill you. Dead, dead." Funniest damn thing I'd read
in a loooong time.
Either way, I do a lot now as it is. Whether I do it in the NJL or VEKN
matters little to me so long as I'm working for the best interests of
the VTES players in my community.
Noal McDonald
The Great Googily Moogily of Farmington Hills, MI
National Jyhad League
--
"I don't think that Witchcraft is a real religion."
"There ought to be limits to freedom."
--George W. Bush
Don't vote for a son of a Bush.
[ quoted text not captured ]