Ruling Q for LSJ

Torvus Bloodbeard During any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap Torvus. Can Torvus untap multiple times in a turn by burning the Edge mutliple times? Kerravon

In message <3edb061b$0$31526$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au>, Kerravon [ quoted text not captured ] No. "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X. -- James Coupe PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D

James Coupe wrote: > In message <3edb061b$0$31526$5a62...@freenews.iinet.net.au>, Kerravon >>Torvus Bloodbeard >>During any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap Torvus. >>Can Torvus untap multiple times in a turn by burning the Edge mutliple >>times? > No. "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X. Correct. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Henrik Isaksson wrote: >>>No. "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X. >> >>Correct. > > > Sematics question: > "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X" More precisely, "During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once *per* phase X. > X="any methuselahs's minion phase". > > This could; IMO, be interpretated as once during all methusaleh's minion phases (once from start if > your turn 'til the start of the next), or once during each methusalehs minion phase each round, or > once in the game during any methusalehs minion phase... If the "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to > doing <Y> *once* during X" rule is complete as quoted that is... perhaps there should be added: > "During <X>, do <Y>" restricts you to doing <Y> *once* during X each turn". It can be interpretted as "once per minion phase (of any Methuselah)", which it is. [ quoted text not captured ]

Why is this not printed on the card? ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap Torvus." The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence of two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card. Reading the card alone or the rulebook alone I have no indication that I can only use Torvus's special once. The whole "During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once *per* phase X." is not only vague it's not in the rulebook. Three words added to the card would make it easy to understand. Another Q Maris Streck Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept. Can I do this multiple times? Kerravon "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3EDC961B...@white-wolf.com... [ quoted text not captured ]

Kerravon wrote: > Why is this not printed on the card? > ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the > Edge to untap Torvus." > The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence of > two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card. The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and Powerbases). > Reading the card alone or the rulebook alone I have no indication that I can > only use Torvus's special once. And hunting grounds and powerbases? Have you also labored under the absence of any indication that they can only be used once? If not, why the difference? > The whole "During phase X, do Y" limits Y to once *per* phase X." is not > only vague it's not in the rulebook. English doesn't need to be in the rulebook. English is assumed to mean what it means in the absence of an overriding definition in the rulebook. "During your lunch break, you may make one personal call on the company phone." Now, are you allowed to make a personal call and then, during the same lunch break, make another on the same company phone? > Three words added to the card would make it easy to understand. Card text space on crypt cards is usually at a premium. And, since the template has served since 1994, ... > Another Q > > Maris Streck > Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept. > Can I do this multiple times? Yes. [snip bottom-quoted quote] [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3EDCD57E...@white-wolf.com... > Kerravon wrote: > > Why is this not printed on the card? > > ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the > > Edge to untap Torvus." > > The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence of > > two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card. > > The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and Powerbases). The "during X do Y means once" template has never been truly satisfactory, though. The enduring recurrence of people asking about cards written with it seems to me like pretty good evidence that the rule is not as intuitive as we'd like it to be. Sure, space is at a premium on most cards, but "once each" in place of "during X phase" would be a very minimal increase (if any) in text used and would produce unambiguous clarity for a lot of readers that aren't finding that clarity in the "during X do Y" phrasing. Josh looking for a few good words

Joshua Duffin wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3EDCD57E...@white-wolf.com... > >>Kerravon wrote: >> >>>Why is this not printed on the card? >>>ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the >>>Edge to untap Torvus." >>>The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence > of > >>>two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card. >>The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and Powerbases). > > The "during X do Y means once" template has never been truly > satisfactory, though. > The enduring recurrence of people asking about cards written > with it seems to me like pretty good evidence that the rule > is not as intuitive as we'd like it to be. You mean like the enduring recurrence of people asking about whether Skin of Rock can be used to prevent aggravated damage indicates that "Prevent 1 damage" is not as intuitive as we'd like it to be? I'll grant you that it could be made clearer with more text (like most card texts can be). But the enduring recurrence of questions test is a bit too broad, given the questions I see. :-) > Sure, space is at a premium on most cards, but "once each" > in place of "during X phase" would be a very minimal increase > (if any) in text used and would produce unambiguous clarity > for a lot of readers that aren't finding that clarity in the > "during X do Y" phrasing. OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible. Unambiguous clarity is a nice goal. Given the Skin of Rock examples, however, I'm not sure it is attainable. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ wrote: > Joshua Duffin wrote: >> Sure, space is at a premium on most cards, but "once each" >> in place of "during X phase" would be a very minimal increase >> (if any) in text used and would produce unambiguous clarity >> for a lot of readers that aren't finding that clarity in the >> "during X do Y" phrasing. > OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible. Hmm. I was just going through the card list making the substitutions, and it is generally pretty awkward and stilted (unless the change actually alters the meaning) after the change. Seems like I had gone down that route before and reached the same end then as well. If anyone wants to give it a go, just take the text file from the web page and mark up every occurence of "during" to see what I mean. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3EDCEFF7...@white-wolf.com... > LSJ wrote: > > Joshua Duffin wrote: > >> Sure, space is at a premium on most cards, but "once each" > >> in place of "during X phase" would be a very minimal increase > >> (if any) in text used and would produce unambiguous clarity > >> for a lot of readers that aren't finding that clarity in the > >> "during X do Y" phrasing. > > > > OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible. > > Hmm. I was just going through the card list making the substitutions, > and it is generally pretty awkward and stilted (unless the change > actually alters the meaning) after the change. Seems like I had gone > down that route before and reached the same end then as well. > > If anyone wants to give it a go, just take the text file from the > web page and mark up every occurence of "during" to see what I > mean. How far down do you go before finding cards becoming awkward? It seems to work reasonably well for me, if I replace "During your X phase" with "Once each of your X phases". At least, this reads OK for me on Hunting Grounds. For vampire abilities written "if Foo is ready during your X phase," I like "if Foo is ready, once each of your X phases,". Still, you're right that it takes some effort to go through and determine which cards that use "during" would need altering and what the best way to include "once" would be. I'd be happy enough if future cards were simply written to use a "once" phrasing instead of relying on the "during X do Y means once" rule. :-) btw - the timestamping on your messages seems to have you posting from tomorrow for some reason. Did you cross the international date line? :-) Josh international man of rulings!

Joshua Duffin wrote: > btw - the timestamping on your messages seems to have you > posting from tomorrow for some reason. Did you cross the > international date line? :-) Yeah. I just noticed (and fixed) that a little while ago. New OS on my machine -> the installing person (not me) left the MS default of Pacific Standard Time. Result: I'm 3 hours ahead. (This was last Thursday). I notice the problem and correct it. But I fail to notice that the time had also been set 12 hours ahead (pm instead of am). So I had only moved myself from 15 hours ahead to 12 hours ahead by the previous fix. Unfortunately, I notice this error in the pm (when the clock reads am), so by fixing only that (changing it to pm) without confirming the date a second time, I move it 12 hours further into the future. Blech. I should be OK now, though, right? [ quoted text not captured ]

vte...@white-wolf.com writes: >> OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible. >Hmm. I was just going through the card list making the substitutions, >and it is generally pretty awkward and stilted (unless the change >actually alters the meaning) after the change. Seems like I had gone >down that route before and reached the same end then as well. You could put the templates, or at least the major ones, in the rulebook. Since the templates are, in some cases, essential to unambiguous interpretation, I think that's appropriate. People should be able to play solely from cards and rules. Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com) "It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson

Joshua Duffin wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >>>OK. I'll adopt the "once each" phrasing whenever possible. >> >>Hmm. I was just going through the card list making the substitutions, >>and it is generally pretty awkward and stilted (unless the change >>actually alters the meaning) after the change. Seems like I had gone >>down that route before and reached the same end then as well. >> >>If anyone wants to give it a go, just take the text file from the >>web page and mark up every occurence of "during" to see what I >>mean. > > How far down do you go before finding cards becoming awkward? I didn't get out of the A's. > It seems to work reasonably well for me, if I replace "During your > X phase" with "Once each of your X phases". At least, this reads > OK for me on Hunting Grounds. "Once each of" has the unfortunate property that it can easily be misread as "When it becomes true that each of", so that reading needs to be eliminated as early in the sentence as possible. As in "Once during each of" or "Once in" or "During". "Once in" begins to look like "At the start of", so that's not a clean "fix". > For vampire abilities written "if Foo is ready during your X > phase," I like "if Foo is ready, once each of your X phases,". "Once during each of your X phases, if Foo is ready, ..." is clearer. > Still, you're right that it takes some effort to go through and > determine which cards that use "during" would need altering and > what the best way to include "once" would be. I'd be happy > enough if future cards were simply written to use a "once" > phrasing instead of relying on the "during X do Y means once" > rule. :-) It seems to be clearly better for instances when it really is "each" and not just "each of your". "Once each minion phase, ...". But those cases are few. [ quoted text not captured ]

WOAH! Maris Streck can be used multiple times but no one else can? How does that language differ? ;-D Presumably Maris Streck is once per Block attempt though? Hunting Grounds would not be limitted in other way, and have no associated cost. The difference is "burn a blood to" which both limits the number of times you can do something and associates a cost with the action. Can't "during phase Y" be changed to "once during each phase Y". The primary distinction (to my mind) between this and the Skin of Rock question is that the rulebook clearly states that there are 2 differences between aggravated and normal damage: no healing and can burn a vampire. It also states explicitly that damage prevention can be used on aggravated damage before normal damage at the discretion of the owner of the vampire taking the damage. There is no reason to believe that Skin can't be used on agg dmg. Similarly there is no rule saying that a non-action effect can't be used more than once in a turn. In particular I've never heard anynoe suggest that reaction and action modifiers can't be used multiple times on the same action (barring card text e.g. on most bleed modifiers). Once per turn is certainly the more reasonable interpretation BUT when the dispute arises there will always be someone with a vested interest in the other perfectly arguable position. One is a newbie question -the other genuinely needs clarification ;)

vte...@white-wolf.com writes: >English doesn't need to be in the rulebook. >English is assumed to mean what it >means in the absence of an overriding definition in the rulebook. >"During your lunch break, you may make one personal call on the >company phone." That has "one" in it. These types of cards don't always have text that implies a single-shot action. Torvus doesn't for example. People don't have trouble if the card would have been written differently to permit unlimited use (e.g. hunting grounds). But sometimes, as with Torvus, the text might also have been written if the intent were multiple burns to untap. [ quoted text not captured ]

On 03 Jun 2003 01:32:52 GMT, curt...@aol.com (CurtAdams) scrawled: >vte...@white-wolf.com writes: > >>English doesn't need to be in the rulebook. >>English is assumed to mean what it >>means in the absence of an overriding definition in the rulebook. > >>"During your lunch break, you may make one personal call on the >company >phone." > >That has "one" in it. These types of cards don't always >have text that implies a single-shot action. Torvus doesn't >for example. yeah, a better analogy to the current text on cards would be "during your lunch break, you may call your mum on the company phone". this leaves it open to just how often you may call your mum. just like some of the cards that follow the 'During X do Y' template. sure, when the bill comes your boss will say "you called your mum 5 times each day during lunch!?!?!", and of course you'll reply "you never said how often i could call her, just that i could, please don't fire me, i'm saving up to move out of home...". salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3EDCD57E...@white-wolf.com... > Kerravon wrote: > > Why is this not printed on the card? > > ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the > > Edge to untap Torvus." > > The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the presence of > > two rules umpires and both said it was ok after reading the card. > > The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and Powerbases). > > > Reading the card alone or the rulebook alone I have no indication that I can > > only use Torvus's special once. > > And hunting grounds and powerbases? Have you also labored under the absence of > any indication that they can only be used once? If not, why the difference? The Difference Hunting Ground During your untap phase, you may move ONE blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control. That 1 makes it quite clear that it is once per turn. Kerravon [ quoted text not captured ]

Timlagor <timl...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: > WOAH! Maris Streck can be used multiple times but no one else can? How > does that language differ? ;-D > Presumably Maris Streck is once per Block attempt though? The complete question from Kerravon was: >>Another Q >> >>Maris Streck >> >>Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept. >> >>Can I do this multiple times? >> >>Kerravon and LSJ said "Yes." Now, given the thread, LSJ probably should have been more specific and clarified the 'Yes' by noting that while Maris Streck *can* use her power multiple times, she can only do so *once per blocking minion*, which fits the template of "During <X>, do <Y>" just fine. During the same action, for example: Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept. Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <B> +1 intercept. Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <C> +1 intercept. This does not violate "During <X>, do <Y>". What cannot happen is: Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept. Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again. Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again. Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) "Know your enemy, and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment... Complacency... Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier

Kerravon <tke...@iinet.net.au> wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3EDCD57E...@white-wolf.com... >> Kerravon wrote: >> > Why is this not printed on the card? >> > ie "Once per turn during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may >> > burn the Edge to untap Torvus." >> > The reason I ask is I was untapping Torvus multiple times in the >> > presence of two rules umpires and both said it was ok after >> > reading the card. >> >> The template has served since 1994 (cf. Hunting Grounds and >> Powerbases). >> >> > Reading the card alone or the rulebook alone I have no indication >> > that I can only use Torvus's special once. >> >> And hunting grounds and powerbases? Have you also labored under the >> absence of any indication that they can only be used once? If not, >> why the difference? >> >> -- >> LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. >> Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament >> calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ > > The Difference > > Hunting Ground > > During your untap phase, you may move ONE blood from the blood bank > to a ready vampire you control. > > > That 1 makes it quite clear that it is once per turn. > > > Kerravon LSJ, this brings up an interesting question. Why didn't CE clear all this up by just reprinting those select cards which needed it with a 'tap'-empowering mechanic built-in? I mean, you're reprinting the set, you're licensing the damn WOTC mechanic anyway, why did you choose not to use it? Note that I don't care one way or the other, I'm just wondering what the thinking was, here. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Mon, 2 Jun 2003 23:13:20 -0700, "Kevin M." <you...@imaspammer.org> scrawled: [snip] >Now, given the thread, LSJ probably should have been more specific and clarified the >'Yes' by noting that while Maris Streck *can* use her power multiple times, she can >only do so *once per blocking minion*, which fits the template of "During <X>, do ><Y>" just fine. > >During the same action, for example: >Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept. >Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <B> +1 intercept. >Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <C> +1 intercept. > >This does not violate "During <X>, do <Y>". > >What cannot happen is: >Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept. >Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again. >Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again. I don't see why not. The ability's text says nothing about how many times you can use the ability, nor who the ability can apply to each time. It does not use the 'during phase X do Y' template, as 'blocking minion' is not a phase... Text: Camarilla Justicar: Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept. She can take a +1 stealth action to allow you to look at and rearrange the top 5 cards of your library. also, from the wording, Maris is allowed to be the blocking minion in question, which is kind of like having your own built-in corpse minion. [ quoted text not captured ]

>LSJ, this brings up an interesting question. Why didn't CE clear all this up >by just >reprinting those select cards which needed it with a 'tap'-empowering >mechanic >built-in? I mean, you're reprinting the set, you're licensing the damn WOTC >mechanic >anyway, why did you choose not to use it? > Well, requiring a tap would at least slightly change the functionality of the card. For example, if you use Succubus Club to trade for a tapped HG you can't use it (whereas with the current system you can). Halcyan 2

Kerravon wrote: > The Difference > During your untap phase, you may move ONE blood from the blood bank to a > ready vampire you control. > > That 1 makes it quite clear that it is once per turn. How? The thing after the comma is invoked. What prevents you from invoking it again that doesn't prevent the same for the thing after the comma in Torvus's case? During any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap Torvus. [ quoted text not captured ]

Kevin M. wrote: > Timlagor <timl...@yahoo.co.uk> wrote: >>WOAH! Maris Streck can be used multiple times but no one else can? How >>does that language differ? ;-D >>Presumably Maris Streck is once per Block attempt though? > The complete question from Kerravon was: > >>>Another Q >>>Maris Streck >>>Maris can burn a blood to give a blocking minion +1 intercept. >>>Can I do this multiple times? >>>Kerravon >> > > and LSJ said "Yes." > > Now, given the thread, LSJ probably should have been more specific and clarified the > 'Yes' by noting that while Maris Streck *can* use her power multiple times, she can > only do so *once per blocking minion*, which fits the template of "During <X>, do > <Y>" just fine. Maris can burn blood to activate her power as many times on the same blocker as she like. There is no "During <X>" template on her. > During the same action, for example: > Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept. > Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <B> +1 intercept. > Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <C> +1 intercept. True. > This does not violate "During <X>, do <Y>". > > What cannot happen is: > Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept. > Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again. > Maris can burn a blood to give blocking minion <A> +1 intercept, again. Incorrect. She can. [ quoted text not captured ]

Why would anyone start playing this game when experienced players doesn´t grasp such a basic concept? (the x,y) I had never considered that Torvus should be restricted to once per turn myself. The rulebook is a problem. It´s much to complicated and espcially when english is a second language. I bet that less than half of the 20 players in our town has read the rulebook from cover to cover. People can play anyway they I guess, but when it comes to tournaments it´s important that rulings are correct. How can we make the game easier to start playing? /Mathias

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3EDC72AA...@white-wolf.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Why not simply change the text so that anyone can instantly know how it works ie "Once during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap Torvus." "Once during your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control." It needs to be changed. As there are alot of players who have the exact same problem I do in interpreting these cards. Or in other words I shouldn't need to go online to ask this question. Kerravon

Kerravon wrote: > Why not simply change the text so that anyone can instantly know how it > works > ie > > "Once during any Methuselah's minion phase, you may burn the Edge to untap > Torvus." > > "Once during your untap phase, you may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a > ready vampire you control." > > It needs to be changed. As there are alot of players who have the exact same > problem I do in interpreting these cards. > Or in other words I shouldn't need to go online to ask this question. With those wordings, some players will ask if the ability can be used a second time (say, during your untap phase of a future turn), since "once" seems to indicate that you cannot. You'd have to use "Once during each of your untap phases, ..." if you wanted to replace "During your untap phase, ..." [ quoted text not captured ]

>Why would anyone start playing this game when experienced players >doesn´t grasp such a basic concept? (the x,y) Is there any CCG that has lasted for any significant amount of time that didn't have these sorts of problems? >I had never considered >that Torvus should be restricted to once per turn myself. "during" questions come up fairly often here. >The rulebook is a problem. It´s much to complicated and espcially when >english is a second language. CCG rules are complicated. Rulebooks that aren't complicated probably aren't all that useful to playing the game correctly either as they'll leave out too many things. However, I wish rulebooks would contain more examples of how things work. My experience with CCGs is that people learn them from other people, someone learns that they've been playing something wrong from an online source or by encountering another play group, and it's passed along to the others. English being a second language shouldn't affect this much as long as the correct ruling was understood in the first place. >I bet that less than half of the 20 >players in our town has read the rulebook from cover to cover. By choice? >People can play anyway they I guess, but when it comes to tournaments >it´s important that rulings are correct. Generally good philosophy with any CCG is, if you've just thought of or built a killer deck, check to make sure your combos actually work. >How can we make the game easier to start playing? Encourage newbies to play with people who know how to play rather than try to struggle amongst themselves.

vte...@white-wolf.com writes: >With those wordings, some players will >ask if the ability can be used >a second time (say, during your untap >phase of a future turn), since >"once" seems to indicate that you cannot. >You'd have to use "Once during each of your untap phases, ..." >if you wanted to replace "During your untap phase, ..." For complete precision, yes. However, I would expect, and I think almost everybody would agree, that a once per game ability would be written as "once *per game* <during your minion phase or whatever>". By contrast, I've seen even experienced players trip over cards like Angelica, Lunatic Eruption, and Torvus. Just a "Once during ...." would greatly reduce, if perhaps not completely eliminate, confusion. There is one unfortunate problem with reprinting cards with "once" added. By implication, since the "during" phraseology is often vague in and of itself, if *some* cards have "once", the cards that don't are *not* limited to once only. Yes, you can errata, but I think a lot of cards are involved and not everybody sees errata. That's why I think a better solution is to define such templates in (future) rulebooks. [ quoted text not captured ]

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3EDC72F9...@white-wolf.com... > Halcyan 2 wrote: [Kevin M wrote] > >>LSJ, this brings up an interesting question. Why didn't CE clear all this up > >>by just > >>reprinting those select cards which needed it with a 'tap'-empowering > >>mechanic > >>built-in? I mean, you're reprinting the set, you're licensing the damn WOTC > >>mechanic > >>anyway, why did you choose not to use it? > > Well, requiring a tap would at least slightly change the functionality of the > > card. For example, if you use Succubus Club to trade for a tapped HG you can't > > use it (whereas with the current system you can). > > Correct. Dare I suggest that this functionality doesn't rise to the level of being worth preserving? :-) There would still be plenty of cards whose "during X do Y" writing can't be suitably replaced with "tap to" usage, but I wouldn't say Succubus Club trading is a good enough reason to keep Hunting Grounds from working by tapping. Josh frankly my dear, i don't give a tap

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3EDBAD65...@white-wolf.com... > Joshua Duffin wrote: > > How far down do you go before finding cards becoming awkward? > > I didn't get out of the A's. Me either, but it was more because I was bored with the exercise than because I thought it wasn't working anymore. :-) Should I go ahead and do them all when I get a chance, would it be useful to you? Or not worth the time it'd take me (and then take you to review them)? > > It seems to work reasonably well for me, if I replace "During your > > X phase" with "Once each of your X phases". At least, this reads > > OK for me on Hunting Grounds. > > "Once each of" has the unfortunate property that it can easily be > misread as "When it becomes true that each of", so that reading > needs to be eliminated as early in the sentence as possible. Hmm, OK. > As in "Once during each of" or "Once in" or "During". > "Once in" begins to look like "At the start of", so that's not > a clean "fix". Yeah, "once during each of" is clearer. I guess that adds three words per card, more or less. There's certainly room for it on the Hunting Grounds, though. :-) > > For vampire abilities written "if Foo is ready during your X > > phase," I like "if Foo is ready, once each of your X phases,". > > "Once during each of your X phases, if Foo is ready, ..." is > clearer. Yes. It's more deviation from the text as printed, for most of them, though. (Since most of these vamps seem to be written starting with "if Foo is ready". Would you consider "If Foo is ready, once during each of your X phases" just as good, or prefer starting with the "once during" part?) > > I'd be happy > > enough if future cards were simply written to use a "once" > > phrasing instead of relying on the "during X do Y means once" > > rule. :-) > > It seems to be clearly better for instances when it really is "each" > and not just "each of your". "Once each minion phase, ...". But > those cases are few. It's at least as short when it's every X phase and not just your own, yeah. I think the gain in clarity is worth the extra three words even when it's only your own X phase, though. Josh I mean, if even Kevin Mergen isn't always clear on which cards are or aren't using the "during X do Y" template... :-)

"CurtAdams" <curt...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20030603144520...@mb-m19.aol.com... > There is one unfortunate problem with reprinting > cards with "once" added. By implication, since the > "during" phraseology is often vague in and of itself, > if *some* cards have "once", the cards that don't > are *not* limited to once only. Yes, you can errata, > but I think a lot of cards are involved and not everybody > sees errata. That's why I think a better solution is > to define such templates in (future) rulebooks. That's also a good point, and yes, defining the templating used on cards in the rulebook would be a pretty good solution to the problem, given the vast quantity of printed cards currently using the "during X do Y" phrasing (and others). Josh ball of confusion that's what the world is whenever i use that line again and again

Joshua Duffin wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message >>Halcyan 2 wrote: [Response to: why didn't the Hunting Grounds get reworded to be tapped when used?] >>>Well, requiring a tap would at least slightly change the functionality of the >>>card. For example, if you use Succubus Club to trade for a tapped HG you can't >>>use it (whereas with the current system you can). >> >>Correct. > > Dare I suggest that this functionality doesn't rise to the > level of being worth preserving? :-) > > There would still be plenty of cards whose "during X do Y" > writing can't be suitably replaced with "tap to" usage, > but I wouldn't say Succubus Club trading is a good enough > reason to keep Hunting Grounds from working by tapping. Succubus Club trading isn't a factor at all. Changing the functionaility of the card (the Hunting Ground card) is the factor. Maintaining current functionality has no level point to which to rise to be maintained (i.e., change is not visited upon every card that doesn't meet a certain "don't change me" criterion). Change has a bar to which it has to rise in order to be implemented. [ quoted text not captured ]

[ quoted text not captured ] Huh. That contradicts what you told me when I asked you (via private email) about this a long time ago, but I suppose I could be misremembering. :P > LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. > Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: > http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Kevin M., Prince of Henderson, NV (USA) [ quoted text not captured ]

>Why would anyone start playing this game when experienced players >doesn´t grasp such a basic concept? (the x,y) I had never considered >that Torvus should be restricted to once per turn myself. >The rulebook is a problem. It´s much to complicated and espcially when >english is a second language. I bet that less than half of the 20 >players in our town has read the rulebook from cover to cover. Hey, complicated can be good in that it adds depth and sophistication. AFAIK, I don't think I've actually fully read the rulebook from front to cover but you don't necessarily need to. However, the "During <X>, do <Y" rule has been around for *years*. It might be hard for newer players to learn about it but the template has existed for quite some time, as well as the online resources to look it up or ask. >How can we make the game easier to start playing? Personally, I think things are fine as they are... Halcyan 2