On 27 Aug 2003 23:49:01 GMT, colind...@aol.com (Colin Goodman)
scrawled:
>Nice. Looks like people were right with a new semi-sect affiliation (Like
>Anarch) and title (Seraph).
and, NOT group 4! yay!
also, with Julio Martinez and Ministry and this new vampire, Teresita,
!Nos look like becoming somewhat of a blocking machine. Although 3
cards is a mighty small sample to make any sort of accurate
statistican predictions, but you know....
salem
domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm
> >Nice. Looks like people were right with a new semi-sect affiliation (Like
> >Anarch) and title (Seraph).
Yes. But not like Anarchs : they already are Black Hand, which is a good
thing ! But seeing as they are abusive compared to other vampires, I think
there could be a downfall to having Black Hand, as in some Bloodlines, even
though there is no cardtext (like you have to pay extra if you get other
vampires out, or you can't have political actions, I dunno) ; either that,
or it's just a way to give again the Sabbat the better vampires they were
supposed to have, as oposed to the better cards Camarilla has.
> and, NOT group 4! yay!
YAY ! It seemed logical these would wait at least until Gehenna, for crypt
balance and thematics.
> also, with Julio Martinez and Ministry and this new vampire, Teresita,
> !Nos look like becoming somewhat of a blocking machine. Although 3
> cards is a mighty small sample to make any sort of accurate
> statistican predictions, but you know....
Yup, s'right.
Looks like the Sabbat will rock again, and maybe win as many storylines as
the cammies. The Indies will be left behind, though, as the Anarchs set
doesn't give them all what they should have deserved. Will we see a good
Group 3 Independant extension, or at least some really good vampires and
cards ? I sure hope so...
Orpheus
http://necrobones.free.fr
salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9vqqkv02ca51ipmc7...@4ax.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
pardon me if i惴 mistaken, but haven愒 nos and !nos been a kind of
blocking machine already? i mean - think about tha raven spies,
raptors, cats guidances etc... not mentioning quite a few nosies have
aus/AUS nowadays too...
but then again...every addition is welcomed :o)=
unseen
"...let scarlet verses chime the dark..."
salem <salem_ch...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:<9vqqkv02ca51ipmc7...@4ax.com>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
I was wondering whether I would purchase some, lots, or none of Black
hand.
These cards have me convinced... so from a marketing point, they've
worked...
Of course, I have a crush on the (!)Nos, so.... :)
Interesting comparing ministry to 2nd tradition, as well.
And interesting to speculate on point cost of the black hand
ability... the 6cap balances it with a peculiar weakness (aggro from
werewolves)...
Cry Wolf!
And let slip the dogs of war.
Tobias
In message <86e3f5f4.03082...@posting.google.com>, Geoff
<talo...@yahoo.ca> writes:
>This card is overpowered. +2 int for a blood, +3 is the acting minion
>is sabaat. Granted you have to be black hand
And you have no idea how much being Black Hand will "cost" a vampire in
reality, how many vampires will be Black Hand inherently, having seen
only two vampires from the set, knowing nothing about the rest of the
set (both library and crypt), knowing nothing about the potential
downsides of being Black Hand, the potential multipurpose nasties in the
set which function for everyone else against the Black Hand...
How have you factored these costs into your evaluation?
Is this from the same school of thought that says a card called Magazine
is automatically necessary in all gun decks, irrespective of reality?
--
James Coupe
PGP Key: 0x5D623D5D
Lucky that my breasts are small and humble, EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2
So you don't confuse them with mountains. 13D7E668C3695D623D5D
"Geoff" <talo...@yahoo.ca> wrote
>
> > Ministry
> >http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2003salessheets/DECEMBE
R%20
> > TITLES/BHMinistry.jpg
> >
>
> This card is overpowered. +2 int for a blood, +3 is the acting minion
> is sabaat. Granted you have to be black hand and you may be tapped if
> you fail, but that's hardly a serious downside at this point. +1/+2
> would seem more reasonable at least.
You think so? Do you also consider Second Tradition: Domain to be
broken? This card is strong but seems inferior to Second Tradition to
me. Princes and Justicars are far easier to field than I expect Black
Hand vampires will be.
Second Tradition has an advantage over this card in that you can take
and action and then wake and block after, granting some efficiency and
surprise. Ministry requires you to be untapped in order to use. Or wake
and play Ministry, but that's two cards in your hand.
If you think of the "Black Hand" designation as being a discipline
instead of... well, whatever it is... then this card does not seem so
out of line to me. If you changed the name and made it say an Auspex
card, would it still seem as scary? I don't think so.
Cool pic though.
Cheers,
WES
Wes wrote:
>Second Tradition has an advantage over this card
>in that you can take and action and then wake and block
>after, granting some efficiency and surprise. Ministry >requires you to be
untapped in order to use. Or wake and >play Ministry, but that's two cards
in your hand.
Enhanced Senses looks pretty good compared to
Ministry. I know, not all vampires have AUS; but they should :) !
Jay
In article <BB728239.5B72%fitz...@earthspambegonelink.net>, Dan Keller wrote:
> White Wolf has three new pics of Black Hand cards up in the Retailers
> section!
>
> Ministry
> http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2003salessheets/DECEMBER%20
> TITLES/BHMinistry.jpg
>
Extremely cool image. Wow!
> Selena
> http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2003salessheets/DECEMBER%20
> TITLES/BHSelena.jpg
>
This is the kind of vampire I like. Real good looking goth girl with
just underwear on, core disciplines of clan and wierd weakness.
IMO all vampires should have as strange weakness as selena.
> Teresita
> http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2003salessheets/DECEMBER%20
> TITLES/BHTeresita.jpg
>
Another really good looking card. What will "black hand" and "black hand seraph"
mean other than ability to play some restricted cards I wonder.
if seraph has something to do with votes then this lady is perfect addition
to cammie nossie for/vote decks.
--
Vlic
colind...@aol.com (Colin Goodman) wrote:
> Nice. Looks like people were right with a new semi-sect affiliation (Like
> Anarch) and title (Seraph).
It seems odd that one of the vampires with the Seraph title is
relatively young (6 cap), but I'm ready to wait to see how the new
titles are implemented.
Much more interesting is that Ministry seems to imply that not all
Black Hand vampires will be Sabbat.
It requires a Black Hand vampire, but has an -additional- effect when
used by a Sabbat vampire.
So the independent Nagaraja and True Brujah could become Black Hand
without acquiring the Sabat sect, for example.
There may even be the possiblity of Camarilla vampires in the Black
Hand. Conspiracies abound!
--
james o'rance
http://www.geocities.com/dragon-dreamer/vampire
James O'Rance <jor...@sydcon.net> wrote:
> colind...@aol.com (Colin Goodman) wrote:>> Nice. Looks like people were right with a new semi-sect affiliation (Like
>> Anarch) and title (Seraph).> It seems odd that one of the vampires with the Seraph title is
> relatively young (6 cap), but I'm ready to wait to see how the new
> titles are implemented.> Much more interesting is that Ministry seems to imply that not all
> Black Hand vampires will be Sabbat.> It requires a Black Hand vampire, but has an -additional- effect when
> used by a Sabbat vampire.
Read again.
It's a reaction card.
It has the additional +1 intercept if the *acting* minion is Sabbat.
Sorry to get your conspiratorial hopes up :)
vl...@none.invalid (Vlic) wrote in message news:<slrnbkrs37...@sirppi.helsinki.fi>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Well, I happen to think that Second tradition takes away alot from
auspex. Giving vampires with auspex the ability to get good
intercept without running the ability hurts auspex. With this card,
any deck running a good amount of Black Hand will be able to generate
+2 intercept, possibly +3. The drawback doesnt matter much, having
to tap if you cant block at +2/+3. Lets face it, if he stealthed past
you at this point, you werent gonna be blocking much of anythign else
he does. On top of this, we have the older Second Tradition allowing
decks to run +2 intercept without auspex.
My argument against these cards would be, where is the equivalent
stealth cards to counteract this that is disciplineless? Trying to
get equipment out is often very hard as it is, lets see some counters
to the disciplineless intercept before we add even more.
in article 8de27bad.03082...@posting.google.com, MarkandJosie at
omgm...@aol.com wrote on 8/28/03 12:44 PM:
[snip]
>
> Well, I happen to think that Second tradition takes away alot from
> auspex. Giving vampires with auspex the ability to get good
> intercept without running the ability hurts auspex. With this card,
> any deck running a good amount of Black Hand will be able to generate
> +2 intercept, possibly +3. The drawback doesnt matter much, having
> to tap if you cant block at +2/+3. Lets face it, if he stealthed past
> you at this point, you werent gonna be blocking much of anythign else
> he does. On top of this, we have the older Second Tradition allowing
> decks to run +2 intercept without auspex.
>
> My argument against these cards would be, where is the equivalent
> stealth cards to counteract this that is disciplineless? Trying to
> get equipment out is often very hard as it is, lets see some counters
> to the disciplineless intercept before we add even more.
Your argument fails to note, however, that many non-bleed actions have an
inherent +1 stealth already included in them. Much of that is already
disciplineless (PA's, equip, most retainers/allies, torpor rescue/encounter,
hunt). Even many discipline-requiring actions default with stealth (Army of
Rats, Govern superior, Cryptic Mission, Revelations, Restoration, etc etc
etc). Intercept is at a disadvantage from the get-go.
At the other end, most of the disciplineless intercept is either restricted
by uniqueness (KRCG, Mr. Winthrop, Carna, Nadima), restricted by who can use
them (2nd, soon-to-be Ministry), or restricted by when it can be used (Elder
Intervention/Pack Tactics). Sports Bike is about the only reliable
disciplineless intercept you can get.
I don't see a problem with disciplineless intercept being a little stronger,
either by permanence or amount, balanced by the preponderance of default
stealth actions.
Dan
omgm...@aol.com (MarkandJosie) writes:
> My argument against these cards would be, where is the equivalent
> stealth cards to counteract this that is disciplineless? Trying to
> get equipment out is often very hard as it is, lets see some counters
> to the disciplineless intercept before we add even more.
! Anarch Railroad [Anarchs:R2]
! Cardtype: Master
! Cost: 2 pool
! Master: unique location.
! Tap to give an anarch +1 stealth for the current action.
And all the "+1 stealth for a single clan"-cards: Backways, The
Labyrinth, Twisted Forest, Elysian Fields...
So, for an example, an Anarch Gangrel using Anarch Railroad and
Backways taking an inherently +1 stealth action can have +3 stealth
before playing a single card.
--
hg@ It's better to open your mouth and appear stupid,
iki.fi than to hold it shut and keep thinking you know it all.
In message <8de27bad.03082...@posting.google.com>,
MarkandJosie <omgm...@aol.com> writes:
>Well, I happen to think that Second tradition takes away alot from
>auspex. Giving vampires with auspex the ability to get good
>intercept without running the ability hurts auspex.
Uh, that's true of *lots* of cards.
It's very possible to get good intercept with Animalism - very good
intercept indeed.
It's very possible to duplicate 'intercept' (negative stealth) via
Chimerstry.
You can get some very good intercept with a copy of Pack Tactics, a
Sport Bike and a news location (pick one which you like - I tend to flit
between London Evening Star and the Rumor Mill).
No clan and/or discipline has exclusive dibs on, well, anything that's
basic to the game. Votes can be got in multiple ways, though Presence
is clearly very good at it, but the Lasombra can do some freaky stuff,
as can anyone with a few copies of Closed Session/Private Audience, or a
few Justicar cards or similar. Auspex can do extremely well indeed in
tandem with a few well chosen vampires or masters - a deck with
Demonstration and Telepathic Vote Counting can go great guns, with a bit
of work. (Of course, some of the votes you pass are Crusades or
Benedictions, most likely, to make a little go a bit further.) Indeed,
even against the (very impressive) might of Presence, having a few
titles knocking around can dampen its day - you have Volker out, that's
a Bewitching Oration it needs at minor, every time, until/unless it can
get rid of him.
Similarly, stealth. There are clan masters (Backways, Fortune Teller
Shop, even the mostly pants Toreador Carnivale); Protean can amass a
great deal of stealth (Earth Control, Form of Mist, Rapid Change), as
can Obtenebration. There are vampires with inherent stealth. There are
ways of making your vampires unblockable, ranging from the potentially
suicidal (Day Operation) to the expensive (Horrific Countenance) to the
downright scary (Toreador Grand Ball) and the disciplineless (Concoction
of Vitality).
Does that make Obfuscate unplayable? Far from it. Obfuscate is still
absolutely fantastic at what it does - but what it does is very, very
far from being the "stealth discipline" in the game.
What does Auspex do? Well, it has some supremely effective intercept.
(If you like that sort of thing.) Sure, 2nd Tradition allows non-Auspex
decks to accept intercept - just like Protean, or Animalism, or
Thaumaturgy, or... allows non-Potence decks to access combat.
Where Auspex excels, intercept-wise is:
* free cards
Ministry, for instance, is a 1 blood card (with a potential tap anyway).
Pack Tactics is 1 blood. The Rumor Mill is 1 blood. Gestalt is *lots*
of blood (though not a 'cost' per se). In Auspex, you get a lot of free
cards.
* efficiency of actions
The master phase locations, of course, require master phases, which are
more usually in short supply than available minions to react with. (Of
course, if your minions *are* in shorter supply than planned, it's
either the start of the game or being able to get that intercept
location in play isn't going to help much, most likely.) Animalism
requires actions to be taken and retainers to be brought out - which, as
it happens, are now a lot more vulnerable than they ever used to be.
Concealed Weapon, .44 Magnum, Range, Blur - 4 damage to you, blow up
your retainer. And 'wasted' actions, of course. Similarly, there are a
lot of cards out there which are pretty inefficient uses of actions -
Canopic Jar, for instance.
* secondary effects
Aside from 2nd Tradition, Auspex has some of the best backup secondary
effects in the game - cross-table blocking (something 2nd Tradition can
never do), presses, maneuvers (great if you're expecting someone to
flash back), damage prevention (which is pretty much never wasted),
bleed bounce (which, again, 2nd Tradition can never do).
On top of that, Auspex has some things that the Princes can't access -
Revelations (which is a candidate for one of the best cards in the game,
for my money, due to that absolutely superb inferior), Aura Reading
(again, extremely flexible), Pulse of the Canaille (a very strong bleed
card - and if you're playing intercept with some bleed permanents for
when you get the chance, chances are you can defend that vampire from
assaults anyway) and so on. Oh, and Nose of the Hound. You select the
vampire.
2nd Tradition doesn't really detract from Auspex. It provides a highly
useful ability to several clans *without* Auspex, yes, but in Toreador
decks or Tremere decks, the two work well together. Oh, and you may
have noticed that the Toreador and Tremere lack small titled vampires
these days, which makes Auspex still a great card set for them. The
Malkavians are possibilities, too, of course - especially for defending
Madness Networks, but it's the Toreador and Tremere who really benefit
from all the combat fringe benefits brought in by Auspex.
> With this card,
>any deck running a good amount of Black Hand
Which will be what?
Do we know how Black Hand will interact with the game? Will it, for
instance, have a capacity restriction - maybe Black Hand vampires need
to be of a certain capacity? Perhaps being Black Hand brings some
downsides?
Without any knowledge of those things, you don't know how viable decks
are.
>will be able to generate
>+2 intercept, possibly +3. The drawback doesnt matter much, having
>to tap if you cant block at +2/+3. Lets face it, if he stealthed past
>you at this point, you werent gonna be blocking much of anythign else
>he does.
Actually, you're ignoring several important cards.
You're assuming that they stealthed past you. Why is this?
Call of the Hungry Dead and Elder Impersonation are hardly unknown. You
play Ministry, I play one of those. Boom, you can't block and are
therefore tapped.
Kiss of Ra - another quite popular card - ends the action without you
blocking.
Change of Target and Red Herring aren't applicable here, since they need
a successful block. For those with access to Presence, Psychomachia
might be a viable option - though it's hard to say how viable, since it
requires a younger vampire (or ally) to be blocking you, but it ends the
action without a successful block requirement.
If you're not playing *all* Black Hand, or are having trouble getting
them out (or whatever, since we don't know the mechanic), Seduction is
still plenty viable. Pick the Black Hand vampire, just as you pick the
Prince. In the Auspex deck, you pick *that* vampire with Auspex and you
find the *other* vampires with Auspex are still hitting you upside the
head.
Pentex Subversion the Black Hand vampire. Always a winner. (Though
possibly less so if someone Bleeds the Vine.) Expensive, true, but if
it gets things done, who cares? It's also disciplineless "stealth" in
that you can take out a key blocking vampire.
>On top of this, we have the older Second Tradition allowing
>decks to run +2 intercept without auspex.
>
> My argument against these cards would be, where is the equivalent
>stealth cards to counteract this that is disciplineless?
It's disciplineless, but only in the strict sense of disciplines.
Many - including myself - tend to reserve disciplineless for cards which
don't require anything other than a vampire (or a minion) - Bum's Rush,
Surprise Influence, Computer Hacking etc. Ministry has a requirement
which may, or may not, be very harsh - we *DON'T KNOW* what Black Hand
means in real terms.
However, you are also missing several important points.
1) Providing uber "disciplineless" stealth is different to providing
uber "disciplineless" intercept. Stealth can advance a deck
actively; intercept can't. Stealth can make actions of "Bleed
for 5" succeed; intercept can't. Stealth and intercept are
tightly balanced in terms of needing an equal amount of one to
counter the other, but their overall effects are not equal. You
cannot *make* someone act so you can block them. You *can* make
someone of your own act so that you can bleed for five, or
Parity Shift. In terms of effect, stealth is almost always
going to "better" than intercept. Blocking all of your actions
won't help me win. Stealth all of mine will.
2) There are many, many actions in the game with an inherent +1 stealth.
This means that your predator or prey *need* to have intercept
to block it. No namby pamby "Wake and block". You *need*
intercept. How many times have you seen Le Dinh Tho take apart
a deck recently? (I've seen it more times than I care to
remember, mostly due to the nightmares it induces.) A vote
deck? You need intercept EVERY SINGLE TIME THEY ACT. If they
have combat avoidance - which they could easily have - you just
can't rely on destroying them straight off. These are already
"disciplineless" stealth - +1 on dozens of vote actions, and
plenty of other actions. You don't need to do anything to get
it other than play a card you were already playing.
3) There are already disciplineless forms of block avoidance in the
game. Creepshow Casino is a huge, huge card. Fantastic
possibilities. +2 stealth on your equip action? Yep. Pentex
Subversion - good way of taking out vampires who are kicking you
in the head, and multi-functional, predator or prey, you decide.
(Or cross-table, if you *really* want.) Stolen Police Cruiser -
after all, it's disciplineless - gives you "stealth".
Unlicensed Taxi Cab is at 2 stealth already. Repo Man gives you
a +2 stealth equip action for vehicles if they're what you want.
Vast Wealth gives you repeatable equipment fetching - the card
doesn't go if you get it wrong.
4) Why take actions? Concealed Weapon is one of the top cards available
for this. Yes, of course, you don't get all the weapons. But
who needs them? You can get out a truck load of weapons with
it. Pier 13, Baltimore, means you only have to get one action
through and suddenly you can start generating a lot of
equipment.
>Trying to
>get equipment out is often very hard as it is,
Play differently?
Anything can be metagamed for. If you are repeatedly trying to get out
equipment in a metagame with lots of intercept without providing
yourself with one of many possibilities (not least of which is a chunk
of Obfuscate in the deck, which is a perfectly valid deck style), and
are finding it difficult to get out as a result, maybe you need to stop
and rethink your strategy?
>lets see some counters
>to the disciplineless intercept before we add even more.
There are plenty available to many and varied deck styles.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 20:39:24 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk>
scrawled:
[snip]
>Change of Target and Red Herring aren't applicable here, since they need
>a successful block. For those with access to Presence, Psychomachia
>might be a viable option - though it's hard to say how viable, since it
>requires a younger vampire (or ally) to be blocking you, but it ends the
>action without a successful block requirement.
From a recent thread:
"Nicx wrote:
> Here the situation: Vamp A have 1 blood on him. Vamp A play a Forced
> Awekening and block Vamp B. Vamp B play Psychomania superior...
>
> Does Vamp A burn 1 blood for the fail block and go to torpor from the
> 1 damage of Psychomania? Thanks!
Psychomachia can only be played if the block is successful, so FA's
non-blocking penalty won't be applied.
--
LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc.
Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar:
http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/"
which is borne out by checking the latest online text, which has the
successful block bit in a different colour inside some fancy
parentheses.
PS: Nice analysis of stealth/intecept, James. :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
> >Trying to
> >get equipment out is often very hard as it is,
>
> Play differently?
>
> Anything can be metagamed for. If you are repeatedly trying to get out
> equipment in a metagame with lots of intercept without providing
> yourself with one of many possibilities (not least of which is a chunk
> of Obfuscate in the deck, which is a perfectly valid deck style), and
> are finding it difficult to get out as a result, maybe you need to stop
> and rethink your strategy?
Whenever you say a card is too powerful, or something is difficult
in the game, you get people that will immediately take shots at your
play skill. Maybe that isnt what you are doing here, but it sure
seems like it. I know how to play the game, I also happen to know
ways to get around intercept for equipment. However, when you get
cards that dont require a discipline, but add something completely new
to different decks, then yeah, I have a problem with it. That doesnt
mean I dont know how to try and get equipment out against other decks,
or that I am totally shut down when my opponents are playing Second
Tradition. I just happen to feel that the card is too powerful.
There were PLENTY of counters to Return to Innocence, that doesnt mean
they shouldnt have changed the card.
> >lets see some counters
> >to the disciplineless intercept before we add even more.
>
> There are plenty available to many and varied deck styles.
Not that are disciplineless/clanless action modifiers that are
equally as easy to use as Obfuscate stealth cards. I dont have a
single problem with Protean giving stealth, chimistery doing a bit of
both, or animalism giving intercept. I just do not believe that this
game needs a +2/+3 intercept card that is disciplineless. A
disciplineless card should imo not compare favorably to a card that
requires disciplines and is already a staple in many decks.
As for the argument that "we dont even know if Black Hand is going
to be any good". Well, certainly we dont know if Black Hand vampires
are going to be any good. Maybe they shouldnt be too good, if every
Black Hand deck can be stocking their normal disciplines and also have
the option of +2/+3 intercept.
Onto the auspex being used for many other things than just pure
intercept, that is quite true. Nor do I think that by having this
card out, that suddenly people will just stop playing auspex. It
does take something away from auspex though, when people can as time
goes on generate more and more intercept without regard to
disciplines.
> Your argument fails to note, however, that many non-bleed actions have an
> inherent +1 stealth already included in them. Much of that is already
> disciplineless (PA's, equip, most retainers/allies, torpor rescue/encounter,
> hunt). Even many discipline-requiring actions default with stealth (Army of
> Rats, Govern superior, Cryptic Mission, Revelations, Restoration, etc etc
> etc). Intercept is at a disadvantage from the get-go.
Actually, this is part of my point. These actions are basically
default unblockable unless you have intercept. There are already
plenty of ways to block these actions, plenty of master cards that
grant +1 intercept. Do we need a disciplineless way to get +2/+3 on
top of this?
[ quoted text not captured ]
Um, did you *read* the rest of my post you snipped? There *are not*
plenty of ways to gain intercept without disciplines, especially in
comparison to the multitude of default stealth actions. As James
mentioned, stealth is used proactively on your terms, whereas intercept
is used reactively, dependent on another Methuselah's actions. Because
of that, non-discipline intercept has to be of a bit higher caliber to
make it worthwhile for its cost in pool, uniqueness, restrictions, etc.
Hence the fact that most of this intercept is found on permanents or in
high quantities.
Dan
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<p8cyeAbXjcT$Ew...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...
> In message <86e3f5f4.03082...@posting.google.com>, Geoff
> <talo...@yahoo.ca> writes:
> >This card is overpowered. +2 int for a blood, +3 is the acting minion
> >is sabaat. Granted you have to be black hand
>> How have you factored these costs into your evaluation?
>
As I said, 'granted you have to be black hand' and therefore its hard
to say definitively. Bottomline is that I for one am concerned about
this card. A +2 generic intercept for 1 blood for a subsect
vampire...thats a heck of a card so far.
G
Geoff expounded:
> Dan Keller <fitz...@earthspambegonelink.net> wrote> > White Wolf has three new pics of Black Hand cards up in the Retailers
> > section!
> >
> > Ministry
> > http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2003salessheets/DECEMBER%20
> > TITLES/BHMinistry.jpg
> >
>
> This card is overpowered. +2 int for a blood, +3 is the acting minion
> is sabaat. Granted you have to be black hand and you may be tapped if
> you fail, but that's hardly a serious downside at this point. +1/+2
> would seem more reasonable at least.
What do most people do when they see heavy stealth?
Most of the time we don't even try to block anything ever (hand jam) -
this may bring the Obf/Int arms race back into play :-)
That will certainly make "sleazy" bleed harder (do you make sure you
have enough stealth or that you don't jam up?).
Dan Keller expounded:
> > Actually, this is part of my point. These actions are basically
> > default unblockable unless you have intercept. There are already
> > plenty of ways to block these actions, plenty of master cards that
> > grant +1 intercept. Do we need a disciplineless way to get +2/+3 on
> > top of this?
>
> Um, did you *read* the rest of my post you snipped? There *are not*
> plenty of ways to gain intercept without disciplines, especially in
> comparison to the multitude of default stealth actions. As James
> mentioned, stealth is used proactively on your terms, whereas intercept
> is used reactively, dependent on another Methuselah's actions. Because
> of that, non-discipline intercept has to be of a bit higher caliber to
> make it worthwhile for its cost in pool, uniqueness, restrictions, etc.
> Hence the fact that most of this intercept is found on permanents or in
> high quantities.
It sure would be nice to see a few 1Blood Auspex Intercept cards
though...
Geoff expounded:
> Dan Keller <fitz...@earthspambegonelink.net> wrote> > White Wolf has three new pics of Black Hand cards up in the Retailers
> > section!
> >
> > Ministry
> > http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads/2003salessheets/DECEMBER%20
> > TITLES/BHMinistry.jpg
> >
>
> This card is overpowered. +2 int for a blood, +3 is the acting minion
> is sabaat. Granted you have to be black hand and you may be tapped if
> you fail, but that's hardly a serious downside at this point. +1/+2
> would seem more reasonable at least.
Thinking about this a bit I think I would prefer +1/+3.
Dan Keller <fitz...@earthspambegonelink.net> wrote in message news:<8nB3b.17215$jY2...@newsread1.news.atl.earthlink.net>...
[ quoted text not captured ]
Yes I did read the rest of your post. I happen to disagree with
your premise. Those things are default +1 stealth for a reason. I
dont believe they should be able to be blocked on a regular basis by
virtually any deck. Granted, this wont be "any deck", it will be any
Black Hand heavy crypt, which we can hardly say right now if thats a
big negative or not. Permanents cost pool and a master phase action,
or a vampire+being able to be blocked in return. This card costs 1
blood on a vampire. Perhaps this card wont be any good because no
one plays Black Hand in decent quantity, we will see.
In message <86e3f5f4.03082...@posting.google.com>, Geoff
<talo...@yahoo.ca> writes:
>A +2 generic intercept for 1 blood for a subsect
>vampire...thats a heck of a card so far.
Without any knowledge of the implications of the affiliation, that is
meaningless.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <bndtkv467db7719h1...@4ax.com>, salem
<salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes:
<Psychomachia>
>which is borne out by checking the latest online text, which has the
>successful block bit in a different colour inside some fancy
>parentheses.
Yes, stupidly I forgot to check because I came across a snippet in
another thread whilst looking for something else entirely, which I
didn't read properly, about how Psychomachia didn't need it.
Grr.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 11:47:58 +0100, James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk>
scrawled:
>In message <bndtkv467db7719h1...@4ax.com>, salem><salem_ch...@yahoo.com> writes:
><Psychomachia>>>which is borne out by checking the latest online text, which has the
>>successful block bit in a different colour inside some fancy
>>parentheses.>
>Yes, stupidly I forgot to check because I came across a snippet in
>another thread whilst looking for something else entirely, which I
>didn't read properly, about how Psychomachia didn't need it.
I was right there with you in thinking it didn't require a block, only
an attempt. I vaguely remembered something about the inferior pre
version requiring an actual block, but never bothered to investigate
further until the recent other Forced Awakening/Psychomachia thread.
see people, it doesn't matter what your question is, it's bound to
help someone somehow somewhere. At the very least it'll give Derek a
vent for some of his aggression. :)
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:47:37 +0100, Timlagor
<Timlagor...@yahoo.com> scrawled:
[snip]
>It sure would be nice to see a few 1Blood Auspex Intercept cards
>though...
like Sins of the Cauchemar, Telepathic Misdirection, and Burnt
Offerings (and half of Read the Winds, sort of ;)?
[ quoted text not captured ]
salem expounded:
> On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:47:37 +0100, Timlagor
> <Timlagor...@yahoo.com> scrawled:
>
> [snip]
> >It sure would be nice to see a few 1Blood Auspex Intercept cards
> >though...
>
> like Sins of the Cauchemar, Telepathic Misdirection, and Burnt
> Offerings (and half of Read the Winds, sort of ;)?
No. MOre like Enhanced Senses but bigger and badder. I meant
intercept cards where you get something for your 1 blood not cards where
you get something totally different at superior.
To me it looks like being black hand might be a mixed blessing,
otherwise these vampires look awfully strong. Nice previews though :)
-Bram 'speculation' Vink
"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message
news:3F4D0D80...@white-wolf.com...
> For unbroken links, go to:
> http://www.white-wolf.com/retail/RetailDownloads.html
Hey, cool!
But Scott, didn't you tell me you were trying to get the
fonts changed in text boxes to use the space more efficiently?
Both Teresita and Selena seem to only be using about half of
their text box. Ministry does better with all those words,
but even there I'd suspect the font could go up maybe a point
or so?
The expansion-icon size on the vampires is definitely improved
from Anarchs, though. The clan icons could maybe still stand
to get a little bigger still, even so.
Josh
seven, eight, lay them straight?
James Coupe writes:
>In message <86e3f5f4.03082...@posting.google.com>, Geoff
><talo...@yahoo.ca> writes:>>This card is overpowered. +2 int for a blood, +3 is the acting minion
>>is sabaat. Granted you have to be black hand>And you have no idea how much being Black Hand will "cost" a vampire in
>reality,
Actually we do; we've seen two and they appear to have paid nothing for
"Black Hand".
>how many vampires will be Black Hand inherently,>having seen
>only two vampires from the set, knowing nothing about the rest of the
>set (both library and crypt), knowing nothing about the potential
>downsides of being Black Hand,
Yes, there could be downsides. But that's not typical for VtES, and
it's very legit to worry about what happens then.
>the potential multipurpose nasties in the
>set which function for everyone else against the Black Hand...
C'mon, hosers haven't been effective in VtES since dark soveriegns.
It's not going to change; if BH decks are common enough to justify
having hosers in a deck they're a problem.
Curt Adams (curt...@aol.com)
"It is better to be wrong than to be vague" - Freeman Dyson
gh...@NYETSPAMmnsi.net writes:
>You think so? Do you also consider Second Tradition: Domain to be
>broken? This card is strong but seems inferior to Second Tradition to
>me. Princes and Justicars are far easier to field than I expect Black
>Hand vampires will be.
P/J costs one capacity, typically, and also carries a contestation
risk. This card is on the level of a discipline. If there are several
more then BH vamps have gotten a pseudo-discipline for free (based
on what we've seen so far)
i would say P/J is undercosted post DS. Before then, crypt limitations
and contestation ri8sk upped the effective cost. The P/J cards are
like superiors and so the P/J ability should cost 2. Ministry is IMO
an alternate version of Enhanced Senses at inferior, so if there are
several more like that it should probably cost 1.
[ quoted text not captured ]
In message <20030829153048...@mb-m14.aol.com>, CurtAdams
<curt...@aol.com> writes:
>James Coupe writes:>>In message <86e3f5f4.03082...@posting.google.com>, Geoff
>><talo...@yahoo.ca> writes:>>>This card is overpowered. +2 int for a blood, +3 is the acting minion
>>>is sabaat. Granted you have to be black hand>>>And you have no idea how much being Black Hand will "cost" a vampire in
>>reality,>
>Actually we do; we've seen two and they appear to have paid nothing for
>"Black Hand".
Cost != "cost in reality".
There is more to working out what something will cost someone than how
many points they paid from the standard design template. What will it
cost them in terms of what they can access, what they can do, how they
can do it, how much you have to pay to bring them out (will Black Hand
have an effect like Scarce?) and so on.
Go back to Bloodlines. Consider a card like Call the Great Beast. Must
be broken, has to be. But we then see the Infernal vampires and the
Infernal mechanic and see how hard it is to get off the ground. It's
very, very hard to make it work.
There are more to cards than meets the eye.
>>having seen
>>only two vampires from the set, knowing nothing about the rest of the
>>set (both library and crypt), knowing nothing about the potential
>>downsides of being Black Hand,>
>Yes, there could be downsides. But that's not typical for VtES,
Scarce, Sterile, Infernal, Barons costing more to contest, even Cold
Iron Vulnerability...
Bear in mind that they have all come in under LSJ's design team.
>>the potential multipurpose nasties in the
>>set which function for everyone else against the Black Hand...>
>C'mon, hosers haven't been effective in VtES since dark soveriegns.
>It's not going to change; if BH decks are common enough to justify
>having hosers in a deck they're a problem.
Hence the term multi-functional. e.g. Banner of Neutrality which is a
"hoser" of a sort, with many potential targets, even if it's not the
best card EVER.
[ quoted text not captured ]
On Fri, 29 Aug 2003 12:33:27 -0400, "Joshua Duffin"
<jtdu...@yahoo.com> scrawled:
>
>The expansion-icon size on the vampires is definitely improved
>from Anarchs, though. The clan icons could maybe still stand
>to get a little bigger still, even so.
i strongly agree here. bigger clan symbols for everyone!
[ quoted text not captured ]
James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<SVtsE0FT1yT$Ew...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...
> In message <86e3f5f4.03082...@posting.google.com>, Geoff
> <talo...@yahoo.ca> writes:
> >A +2 generic intercept for 1 blood for a subsect
> >vampire...thats a heck of a card so far.
>
> Without any knowledge of the implications of the affiliation, that is
> meaningless.
Incomplete sure, but not meaningless.
G
In message <86e3f5f4.03082...@posting.google.com>, Geoff
<talo...@yahoo.ca> writes:
>James Coupe <ja...@zephyr.org.uk> wrote in message news:<SVtsE0FT1yT$Ew...@gratiano.zephyr.org.uk>...>> In message <86e3f5f4.03082...@posting.google.com>, Geoff
>> <talo...@yahoo.ca> writes:
>> >A +2 generic intercept for 1 blood for a subsect
>> >vampire...thats a heck of a card so far.
>>
>> Without any knowledge of the implications of the affiliation, that is
>> meaningless.>
>Incomplete sure, but not meaningless.
And incomplete by a HUGE way.
How broken are a lot of Bloodlines cards until you understand the
mechanics functioning behind them?
[ quoted text not captured ]
In article <8de27bad.03082...@posting.google.com>,
MarkandJosie wrote:
> My argument against these cards would be, where is the equivalent> stealth cards to counteract this that is disciplineless? Trying to
> get equipment out is often very hard as it is, lets see some counters> to the disciplineless intercept before we add even more.
>
Humm.. that is true. If these cards (ministry and second tradition) are
something like rpg's "I use my contacts to find them" where are
the "I use my contacts to do diversion" type of cards?
> > My argument against these cards would be, where is the equivalent
> > stealth cards to counteract this that is disciplineless? Trying to
> > get equipment out is often very hard as it is, lets see some counters
> > to the disciplineless intercept before we add even more.
> >
> Humm.. that is true. If these cards (ministry and second tradition) are
> something like rpg's "I use my contacts to find them" where are
> the "I use my contacts to do diversion" type of cards?
For equip (and +), there is now Unlicensed Taxicab ; for voting, we have
less of them, but there is also Creepshow Casino. We could use one
non-equip, non-loc card for votes / equip decks, too, I agree : "only usable
on a non-bleed action" would do the thing. But then, we musn't render
obsolete disciplines like Obf, Obt, Nec etc.
Orpheus