Opaque card backs

Well, since the chances for a card trade-in are looking more than dim (I have asked Tom repeatedly for information on this issue and been, go figure, flatly ignored), I'm also concerned about ideas for alternatives to make V:tES playable for us Jyhad types. Well, I'm still not going to buy anything from WotC again unless they do something about the card back problem. The idea of opaque card sleeves is starting to sound like an idea I can support. Here's my proposal to Wizards (listen up guys! :). How about giving away 100 "Vampire" card sleeves with the purchase of, say, 10 Dark Sovereigns boosters? Since it's with a purchase, you'd be sure these are people who have bought your product (otherwise someone somewhere could theoretically claim to have invested in Jyhad and need card sleeve but be feeding you bull). Since anyone for whom this sollution would be satisfactory will likely want to buy Dark Sovereigns (I will probably be among them, but I won't buy it otherwise), you can be pretty sure that anyone you screwed with the card-back change will have their opportunity to come back to you. Other people will probably want to get the sleeves to, just as a neat thing to get from their friends at WotC. Heck, if you offer several different backs, people may buy more DS just to get them. :) But, if nothing else, people annoyed by the card back situation will only have to get 10 DS boosters they would buy anyway to rectify their problem, unless they play REALLY big games with REALLY big decks. Of course, you guys would have to promise (a final decision would have to be made :) that said sleeves will be legal in tournaments. How about it guys? Several people in my playing circle (it's large) have indicated that this solution would work for them. Otherwise, they're not buying from you guys again short of a full-fledged trade-in. Anybody else like this idea? JML

The card sleeves idea is a good one. I too would buy DS boosters if they included sleeves and sleves were legalized for all JYHAD/Vampire tourneys. As would everyone I know who plays. As it stands WE all aggree that we may get DS boosters if some kind of mixed card back solution is offered but WILL NOT buy V:TES CARDS. So as it stands I have about 2 cases of boosters of DS to order as soon as a solution to the card back problem is announced. Tom. This is a good idea. What have you to say? Stu > JML -- Stu Pieloch TLTT Players-Lord High And Mighty Potentate of the Known Universe DramaTech Theatre Improv Troupe http://photobooks.gatech.edu/~zync/lttp.html GE/T/S d++(--) H(-) s++:- g+(-) p2 au++ a- w+++(--) v++ C++ U N++ W---() M+ V-- po+++(---) t--- 5+++ G+++ B--- e++ u++ f+ r++ n--- y*

I agree that the sleeves could be the best solution for the problem of Jyhad/DS cards (I say DS because I'm not gonna buy V:TES cards as most Jyhad players...) Waiting for Tom word... Luca "Democritus" Consoli

WOTC officially told me that they had no intention of a trade-in, future release of any Jyhad backed cards in the future or of releasing any card sleeves (opaque or not). You might better spend your time prevailing upon companies that currently make card sleeves and convince them to cash in on a potentially large market. M Whitbread

Michael Whitbread (mw...@earthsciences.uq.edu.au) wrote: : WOTC officially told me that they had no intention of a trade-in, future [ quoted text not captured ] Naah, you'd be better off supporting a game company that isn't screwing over its existing customer base. Like Steve Jackson or Atlas. Imagine: trading card expansion sets (three so far for On the Edge) that are all *fully compatible*, including card backs, with older cards! Hurm. I guess I'm still bitter. Brand

In article r...@dingo.cc.uq.oz.au, Michael Whitbread <mw...@earthsciences.uq.edu.au> writes: > WOTC officially told me that they had no intention of a trade-in, future > release of any Jyhad backed cards in the future or of releasing any card > sleeves (opaque or not). You might better spend your time prevailing upon > companies that currently make card sleeves and convince them to cash in on a > potentially large market. > > M Whitbread > It doesn't matter if someone makes them if the offical(tournament?) rules don't allow you to play with them. An "official" WOTC solution would be in everyones (including WOTC I would think) best intrest.

Chad Ray McDaniel <ch...@sgi.com> wrote: >if only Jyhad weren't such a good game; then i wouldn't care. >one wonders what the decision-making processes at WotC are like. Steve Jackson >Games is amazing open about their policies. while Tom Wylie has been helpful i >still get the impression that WotC is turning into a huge corporation that is >too distant from its customers. perhaps they are just too busy, i dunno; it >does get frustrating. i also wonder how closely Garfield follows these sorts >of things once he has finished designing the game. Well, no, we do try to keep people informed of our policies as much as we can. This is done through releases to the net, Duelist announcements, etc. It's mostly this one issue that has been dragging out for a while. I don't know exactly why that is, but there isn't anything I can do about it except pester Matt about it periodically. As soon as there's a policy to release, believe that I will post it here. I don't like to leave you folks hanging anymore than you like waiting on the answer. Richard generally trusts others to manage games once he's done designing them, and they've been released. I don't remember what he thinks of this particular issue. But in general, he's much more interested in working on new products than in maintaining existing ones. Tom Wylie rec.games.trading-cards.* Network Representative for aa...@cats.ucsc.edu Wizards of the Coast, Inc.

As a possible option to the opaque-backed sleeves, which I think is a pretty good idea BTW, I was thinking that there might be a market for Las Vegas-style card shoes. You know, the rectangular box that they deal blackjack out of? It covers the back of the card pretty well, and just seems to me that if you could get ahold of one it would solve the problem. -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=- Nick Svolos (nick....@trw.com) | DTD Service Center | If the jackboot fits, SIG/TRW | wear it. Voice: (310)812-4009 | I don't speak for TRW, TRW doesn't speak for me.

In article <431omo$f...@deneva.sdd.trw.com> Nick Svolos <nick....@qmgate.trw.com> writes: >As a possible option to the opaque-backed sleeves, which I think is a >pretty good idea BTW, I was thinking that there might be a market for >Las Vegas-style card shoes. You know, the rectangular box that they >deal blackjack out of? It covers the back of the card pretty well, and >just seems to me that if you could get ahold of one it would solve the >problem. Sounds like a very good idea to me. We'll need sleeves for the vampires, but it'll be bothersome to have to put sleeves over one's entire collection of library cards. We'll need to cover the card backs of cards in the hand, though. -- "Live Life with Heart." Alan Kwan kw...@cs.cornell.edu

Before I could do anything to stop it, Thomas R Wylie wrote: > Well, no, we do try to keep people informed of our policies as much as > we can. This is done through releases to the net, Duelist announcements, > etc. It's mostly this one issue that has been dragging out for a while. > I don't know exactly why that is, but there isn't anything I can do about > it except pester Matt about it periodically. As soon as there's a policy > to release, believe that I will post it here. I don't like to leave you > folks hanging anymore than you like waiting on the answer. Hey, Tom. Maybe it's been posted here, but I've been absent a lot lately and missed it if it was: Will Jyhad backs still be allowed in tournaments? Thanks... Brian -- Arrogantly twisting the sterile canvas snoot of a | a-Henh! fully charged icing annointment utensil, he poots forth | a tiny green rosette near the summit of a dense but | Brian radiant muffin of his own design. | Wilson | We miss you, Frank! |

Grimfang (sfo...@cyberport.com) wrote: : I know I will probably get flamed for this but WHY?? : Why all the fuss and bother about the card backs?? : Why can't you play with the cards as they are, since they are compatible?? Because there are jerks out there that will have all V:tes cards with only 1 or 2 cards from jyhad. This way they know what the card is before they draw it. AKA Marked Cards. : : Grimfang P.S. On the off chance you did not know, the backs WILL be different.

I know I will probably get flamed for this but WHY?? Why all the fuss and bother about the card backs?? Why can't you play with the cards as they are, since they are compatible?? Grimfang

Another solution to the problem of the Jyhad/Vampire card backs (and one I plan to use when DS is released), is to simply double up cards within a single transparent card sleeve. So for each card you want to have in your deck, you would have one additional card in the sleeve behind it, with a back that matches all the other cards in your deck. You would probably want to double all your cards since a trained eye might notice two cards in one sleeve while only one in another. It is also a good way to put those *useless commons* to some use. You would also have the option of which title you wanted to have on the back (all Jyhad or all Vampire, depending on how you stand in this long drawn out debate). The only problem that I can see, is someone were proficient in sleight of hand switching the front card and back card around during play (but if they can do that, they could cheat in a variety of other ways frowned upon by all, except perhaps the Ravnos). If you see any flaws or have better solutions to the problem keep them posted. -The Re-Evolved Gangrel

> do...@crl.com (Doug Rich) writes: > Grimfang (sfo...@cyberport.com) wrote: > > > > : I know I will probably get flamed for this but WHY?? > > : Why all the fuss and bother about the card backs?? > > : Why can't you play with the cards as they are, since they are > compatible?? > > Because there are jerks out there that will have all V:tes cards with > only 1 or 2 cards from jyhad. This way they know what the card is before > they draw it. AKA Marked Cards. > > : > : Grimfang > > P.S. On the off chance you did not know, the backs WILL be different. > > >>>> Okay, now tell me this If they did produce opaque card covers (which won't happen), how could you possibly enforce their use unless WotC produces them you can't. Which brings up the possibility of a person who just starting out coming to a game and get called a cheat because he bought three starters of V:tES and a couple of rares with Jyhad backs, by your standards, of course I would start to get suspicious if a guy who played alot got did that. Reasons I don't think you need any card covers a buyback or any other stupid expensive ideas of late. 1 : You couldn't force your opponents to comply with a opaque card, unless it came from WotC(see next few). 2 : Buybacks would be way to expensive for all concerned, postage, sorting, dealers who would lose lots and stop trading them all together thereby effecting all players in that area. 3 : It would give more money to WotC for changing the cards, besides the price of buying the new ones. 4 : You could just as easily make a rule and advocate an official designation from WotC, it would not cost a dime (except maybe the phone call) to anyone and would be official so it could be easily enforced on players who showed up with a really suspicious deck. My feeble attempt is below but I am sure some of you could come up with better, I have collected to date not played(can't find players) so I really don't know much about deck configuration or how the rule below would work out but I think it isn't bad for just quick thinking on the subject and can be adapted very easily to those decks which it doesn't fit at all. Rule : If playing a mixed deck you must use a 50%-50% mix or very close to it and at least 2 of each type of card in each set. This includes Vampire cards although the two card rule cannot be enforced here( it would be obvious if someone was cheating with vampire cards). What I really cannot figure out is why so many people are actually advocating paying more to play a game, I mean my other game WH40k everybody gripes all the time about paying out more money every time they come out with something new(although I agree with them sometimes). Point is it doesn't really have to cost anybody any major expense. Grimfang PS: The Backs will have Vampire The Eternal Struggle on the back and the face of the cards will also change with easier system for identifying each of the various cards at a glance rather than looking for a tiny symbol. However did you know that the cards themselves will only minutely change, meaning the cards can be changed out from Jyhad and V:tES with only minor exceptions Gee I bet I could buy a starter deck and get a good enough mix of cards to play. G

Karl J Hiller (khi...@ucs.indiana.edu) wrote: : Grimfang (sfo...@cyberport.com) wrote: : : Rule : If playing a mixed deck you must use a 50%-50% mix or very close : : to it and at least 2 of each type of card in each set. This includes : : Vampire cards although the two card rule cannot be enforced here (it : : would be obvious if someone was cheating with vampire cards). I want to mention that I didn't have a real problem with the back change, but to let you know that there were people who did. : Not a bad idea (and the rest of your analysis was thoughtful), but there : are a lot of us out here with full sets of Jyhad, hundreds and hundreds : of cards. Where are we going to get enough V:tES cards to make a 50%-50% : mix? I *have* my set; I don't need nor want to buy more of the same : cards that I already spent money on, just to get a mix of backs. : When Dark Sovereigns comes out, I guess I might have (originally) bought : a box or two, which would make the 50/50 mix possible... But only if I : were playing with one of the new clans, and then everyone at the table : would know if the vampires in my crypt are from the basic set or DS. I think that if nobody comes out with opaque backed sleeves (which I think would be a good idea, if they came in multiple colors, to identify my cards from other peoples) I will probably just use the suggestion posted here earlier. Put all my extra common cards in the sleeves with the cards I am playing with to serves as consistent backs. : I'm still watching the situation; maybe it won't end up being as bad as : it sounds. But, really, I think that the likelihood of my buying any : cards that won't blend into my deck indistinguishably is pretty small. : Brand

Grimfang (sfo...@cyberport.com) wrote: : Rule : If playing a mixed deck you must use a 50%-50% mix or very close : to it and at least 2 of each type of card in each set. This includes : Vampire cards although the two card rule cannot be enforced here (it : would be obvious if someone was cheating with vampire cards). Not a bad idea (and the rest of your analysis was thoughtful), but there are a lot of us out here with full sets of Jyhad, hundreds and hundreds of cards. Where are we going to get enough V:tES cards to make a 50%-50% mix? I *have* my set; I don't need nor want to buy more of the same cards that I already spent money on, just to get a mix of backs. When Dark Sovereigns comes out, I guess I might have (originally) bought a box or two, which would make the 50/50 mix possible... But only if I were playing with one of the new clans, and then everyone at the table would know if the vampires in my crypt are from the basic set or DS. I'm still watching the situation; maybe it won't end up being as bad as [ quoted text not captured ]

In <442h8u$m...@usenet.ucs.indiana.edu>, khi...@ucs.indiana.edu (Karl J Hiller) wrote: > > there > are a lot of us out here with full sets of Jyhad, hundreds and hundreds > of cards. Where are we going to get enough V:tES cards to make a 50%-50% > mix? I *have* my set; I don't need nor want to buy more of the same > cards that I already spent money on, just to get a mix of backs. I'll probably not buy any V:TES, although I may acquire some in trading. And Dark Sovereigns will probably be my only V:TES backed cards. I'll just live with it, even though I'm not happy. I think the whole "Jyhad offends the international market" is so much bullshit. Anton Dovydaitis an...@infoserv.com For Ishi Press inquiries, mail to `ish...@ishius.com'.

I fully agree. The least WOTC could have done would be to remove some of the old cards and put in some new or improved cards to make it worth our while to purchase V: TES.

[ quoted text not captured ] Actually, we did do a minor card rotation in VTES. Pick up a copy of Duelist #7 for an article on the changes in VTES. [ quoted text not captured ]