[LSJ]chruch of the order of st. blaise and powerbase baranquilla

ich have the church of the blabla in play and play a pb baranquilla but control not ready sabbat vamp (i did when i played the church) can i tap the church and add a counter to the PB before the pb burns? at gencon you ruled yes, but said i should ask you again on the NG (what i do now with a little delay) stefan

"Stefan Ferenci" <nos...@thankyou.com> wrote in message news:41dbe1e1$0$11868$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at... [ quoted text not captured ] Correct. You put Powerbase: Barranquilla in play with no counters (X=0, since you have zero Sabbat vampires). You would then have to burn it (since it has no counters), but you could choose to tap the Church of the Order of St. Blaise first to add a counter to it. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. V:TES homepage: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/ Though effective, appear to be ineffective -- Sun Tzu

"LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:3429fpF...@individual.net... > "Stefan Ferenci" <nos...@thankyou.com> wrote in message > news:41dbe1e1$0$11868$3b21...@usenet.univie.ac.at... > > ich have the church of the blabla in play and play a pb baranquilla but > > control not ready sabbat vamp (i did when i played the church) can i tap > > the church and add a counter to the PB before the pb burns? > > at gencon you ruled yes, but said i should ask you again on the NG (what > > i do now with a little delay) > > > Correct. > You put Powerbase: Barranquilla in play with no counters (X=0, since you > have zero Sabbat vampires). > You would then have to burn it (since it has no counters), but you > could choose to tap the Church of the Order of St. Blaise first to > add a counter to it. Really? Why is there time to do this before the Powerbase: Barranquilla burns? It seems like if you put it into play with no counters, its own card text is going to burn it immediately. I wouldn't have expected that you could interrupt the burning by adding a counter to it. Presumably if you can do this, you could likewise put a counter on Powerbase: New York with Church of the Order of St. Blaise after removing the last one to keep PB:NY from burning? (Not that there's much reason to do it in that order rather than first, but still.) Josh blah blah blaise!

"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:342iupF...@individual.net... > Really? Why is there time to do this before the Powerbase: Barranquilla > burns? It seems like if you put it into play with no counters, its own > card text is going to burn it immediately. I wouldn't have expected > that you could interrupt the burning by adding a counter to it. "Immediately"? No. See also ordering effects around Arika et al. [ quoted text not captured ]

Joshua Duffin wrote: > "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message > news:3429fpF...@individual.net... > > Correct. > > You put Powerbase: Barranquilla in play with no counters (X=0, since > you > > have zero Sabbat vampires). > > You would then have to burn it (since it has no counters), but you > > could choose to tap the Church of the Order of St. Blaise first to > > add a counter to it. > > Really? Why is there time to do this before the Powerbase: Barranquilla > burns? It seems like if you put it into play with no counters, its own > card text is going to burn it immediately. I wouldn't have expected > that you could interrupt the burning by adding a counter to it. > > Presumably if you can do this, you could likewise put a counter on > Powerbase: New York with Church of the Order of St. Blaise after > removing the last one to keep PB:NY from burning? (Not that there's > much reason to do it in that order rather than first, but still.) > > > Josh > > blah blah blaise! I agree that it seems a bit odd. If that's the case then: #1. Why can't you use a Coven to add blood to a (now) empty vampire before Anathema triggers? #2. In a previous ruling involving Corruption's Purge (which focused more on the timing of a referendum) you stated that: << Similarly, you could use Blood Tears of Kephram after a Corruption's Purge "passes" to give your Follower of Set with two blood two extra blood to burn (assuming sufficient capacity, of course) to keep him out of torpor (by keeping him from dropping to zero blood). >> By this reasoning, wouldn't this work for vampires with one or two capacity as well? (So the "assuming sufficient capacity" is not necessary). Lalitha burns 2 blood, but then you use Blood Tears to give her more blood before Corruption's Purge would have sent her to torpor? #3. And you'd think that if one of your allies is reduced to 0 life, you could tap your Vagabond Mystic to add a life to, as Josh put it, "interrupt the burning by adding a counter to it"? #4. If there's a window to use effects after putting in play a card that will be burned, then couldn't you play a War Ghoul (when you have no retainers or allies) and before you actually burn the War Ghoul due to its card text, tap it and burn it to toast a location instead? If not, then how does this timing differ from Church of the Order timing? - Eric Chiang

<echia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message news:1104944338.9...@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com... > I agree that it seems a bit odd. If that's the case then: Because some things trigger on an event happening (the last X being removed, whatever) and some trigger on a state being true (being empty). > #1. Why can't you use a Coven to add blood to a (now) empty vampire > before Anathema triggers? The event has still happened. Tap it before he's empty, of course. > #2. In a previous ruling involving Corruption's Purge (which focused > more on the timing of a referendum) you stated that: > > << Similarly, you could use Blood Tears of Kephram after a Corruption's > Purge "passes" to give your Follower of Set with two blood two extra > blood to burn (assuming sufficient capacity, of course) to keep him > out of torpor (by keeping him from dropping to zero blood). >> > > By this reasoning, wouldn't this work for vampires with one or two > capacity as well? (So the "assuming sufficient capacity" is not > necessary). Lalitha burns 2 blood, but then you use Blood Tears to give > her more blood before Corruption's Purge would have sent her to torpor? Could be, if anyone played the card. :-) I had thought of it as a "burn blood and, if you burned your last, move" which would be the event, but it seems to be written as a state, so there you go. > #3. And you'd think that if one of your allies is reduced to 0 life, > you could tap your Vagabond Mystic to add a life to, as Josh put it, > "interrupt the burning by adding a counter to it"? No. http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/rulebook/rulebook.html#sec6_4_6 > #4. If there's a window to use effects after putting in play a card > that will be burned, then couldn't you play a War Ghoul (when you have > no retainers or allies) and before you actually burn the War Ghoul due > to its card text, tap it and burn it to toast a location instead? If > not, then how does this timing differ from Church of the Order timing? War Ghoul triggers on the event, as written. [ quoted text not captured ]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2005 11:46:56 -0500, "LSJ" <vte...@white-wolf.com> scrawled: >"Joshua Duffin" <jtdu...@yahoo.com> wrote in message >news:342iupF...@individual.net... >> Really? Why is there time to do this before the Powerbase: Barranquilla >> burns? It seems like if you put it into play with no counters, its own >> card text is going to burn it immediately. I wouldn't have expected >> that you could interrupt the burning by adding a counter to it. > >"Immediately"? >No. >See also ordering effects around Arika et al. i thought Arika, specifically, was a 'during your untap phase', which meant it was something to be ordered during that phase. (presumably the methuselah who's untap phase it is gets to 'own' arika's effect, based on the Leadership Vacuum thing, and can order it how they want). PB Barran., however, seems to be a 'always checking' thing. it's not 'during a given phase, if counters = 0, burn card', but just anytime counters = 0, burn card. salem domain:canberra http://www.geocities.com/salem_christ.geo/vtes.htm (replace "hotmail" with "yahoo" to email)

salem wrote: > i thought Arika, specifically, was a 'during your untap phase', which > meant it was something to be ordered during that phase. (presumably > the methuselah who's untap phase it is gets to 'own' arika's effect, > based on the Leadership Vacuum thing, and can order it how they want). > > PB Barran., however, seems to be a 'always checking' thing. it's not > 'during a given phase, if counters = 0, burn card', but just anytime > counters = 0, burn card. It's checking "during" every phase, right. (It doesn't use the regular "during X, do Y" template for obvious reasons). -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

On Thu, 06 Jan 2005 03:44:47 GMT, LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > salem wrote: >> i thought Arika, specifically, was a 'during your untap phase', which >> meant it was something to be ordered during that phase. (presumably >> the methuselah who's untap phase it is gets to 'own' arika's effect, >> based on the Leadership Vacuum thing, and can order it how they want). >> >> PB Barran., however, seems to be a 'always checking' thing. it's not >> 'during a given phase, if counters = 0, burn card', but just anytime >> counters = 0, burn card. > > It's checking "during" every phase, right. [hairsplitting] How come? I thought you could only do one thing once during another thing by virtue of semantics logic. [/hairsplitting] > (It doesn't use the regular "during X, do Y" template for obvious > reasons). Oh, I get it. ;) -- Bye, Daneel

Hello LSJ, If Anathema said burn this vampire if they have zero blood in combat, then The Coven could save them, correct? since the act "reduced to zero" causes the burn not the amount of blood on the card. Good? David Wilson

"David Wilson, Mask of a Thousand Names" <derv...@gmail.com> wrote in message news:1105078102.3...@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Right. (Note to rulings-seekers: this is an *if*. The conditional is not true, so the answer is moot for official games :-) -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

In the latest December 2004 Rules Team Rulings, it was said that: The damage resolution phase does not preclude other effects (like tapping a Barrens, for example). You may tap the Barrens to attempt to draw into more damage prevention, or play Aura Reading when Weather Control damage is applied (to attempt to draw Skin of Night if a Dawn Operation is in play, for example). You still cannot "interrupt" damage handling, however (you cannot burn two blood to heal and then use some effect to gain blood before burning another blood to heal the remaining third point of damage, for example). Say you have an Anathema'ed vampire in play with one blood. During combat, the opposing minion plays Weather Control. Since this "does not preclude other effects" (i.e. Barrens can be tapped to try to draw into a Skin of Night to prevent you from going to torpor during a Dawn Op), wouldn't this mean you could also tap the Coven to add 2 blood before healing the WC damage (thus you could avoid being burned by Anathema)? Same question if you replace WC with Mariel's ability, Vitae Block, Blood to Water, or Thin Blood and/or Coven with Blood Tears. Also is this "does not preclude other effects" aspect specific to only damage resolution? Because couldn't it potentially conflict with the May 2004 Rules Team Rulings? Q: Can card-cycling effects (Barrens, Fragment, etc.) be used during the "as played" window (so as to allow a player to draw into a Sudden or a Direct Intervention to cancel the "as played" card)? A: No. The "as played" window is only as the card is being played. It is before that card is replaced, even. The only cards that can be played "as" another one is played are the ones the players have in their hands at the time. (Not to be confused with the "as the action is announced" step, which comes after the action card is played.) This is a reversal of previous rulings. So if you play a superior Aura Reading, I cannot tap The Barrens in hope of drawing a DI. But if you play a Weather Control, I am able to tap The Barrens, so what happens if I draw a DI then? I suppose one possibility is that this situation is unique to damage resolution. You can only play a DI when Weather Control is initially played. Once you get to damage resolution, it is too late to play a DI even if you just drew it with The Barrens. If I missed another possibiliy please let me know. Thanks!

echia...@yahoo.com wrote: > Say you have an Anathema'ed vampire in play with one blood. During > combat, the opposing minion plays Weather Control. Since this "does not > preclude other effects" (i.e. Barrens can be tapped to try to draw into > a Skin of Night to prevent you from going to torpor during a Dawn Op), > wouldn't this mean you could also tap the Coven to add 2 blood before > healing the WC damage (thus you could avoid being burned by Anathema)? Yes. > Same question if you replace WC with Mariel's ability, Vitae Block, > Blood to Water, or Thin Blood and/or Coven with Blood Tears. Same answer. > Also is this "does not preclude other effects" aspect specific to only > damage resolution? Because couldn't it potentially conflict with the > May 2004 Rules Team Rulings? When rulings conflict, the most recent wins (treated as a reversal). > So if you play a superior Aura Reading, I cannot tap The Barrens in > hope of drawing a DI. But if you play a Weather Control, I am able to > tap The Barrens, so what happens if I draw a DI then? In both cases, you'd draw the DI after the card that had been played was played. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. [ quoted text not captured ]

>> ich have the church of the blabla in play and play a pb baranquilla but >> control not ready sabbat vamp (i did when i played the church) can i tap >> the church and add a counter to the PB before the pb burns? >> at gencon you ruled yes, but said i should ask you again on the NG (what >> i do now with a little delay) > > >Correct. >You put Powerbase: Barranquilla in play with no counters (X=0, since you >have zero Sabbat vampires). >You would then have to burn it (since it has no counters), but you >could choose to tap the Church of the Order of St. Blaise first to >add a counter to it. So, state-based effects have no priority over fast effects? I'm not sure people are all that thrilled about putting in Magic terminology, but there should be some terminology that can be used such that we have some sort of rules principles to work with. I really have little idea what the timing rules are (this situation being one of many facets of timing rules) for this game. The game is almost FIFO but then isn't. It has interrupts but fuzzy ones. A lot of timing issues may not come up often enough that people realize the lack of timing rules, but they come up, so it's hugely useful to have comprehensive ones. To put it more plainly, why is there a timing window to do anything before the card burns? Or, put yet another way, why is the burning of the card delayed for some indeterminate time to allow other (non-triggered) effects?

"Curevei" <cur...@aol.commetal> wrote in message news:20050108212355...@mb-m28.aol.com... [Stefan wrote] >>> ich have the church of the blabla in play and play a pb baranquilla but >>> control not ready sabbat vamp (i did when i played the church) can i tap >>> the church and add a counter to the PB before the pb burns? >>> at gencon you ruled yes, but said i should ask you again on the NG (what >>> i do now with a little delay) [LSJ wrote] [ quoted text not captured ] I have to agree here. I can see the distinction you're drawing, Scott, between effects that are based on checking a "state" and effects that are based on an "event". But I don't see how it's useful for the game, or in particular, good for consistency, to treat things that trigger differently based on whether they're triggering on a state (or a change to a state) versus an event. (A change in state *is* an event, after all, in standard usage.) It doesn't really matter to me whether you can or can't add a counter to Powerbase: Barranquilla before it burns at 0 counters. But I do think the game would benefit from having clearer and more consistent timing rules rather than more complicated ones, unless there's a really good reason to go the complicated way. Josh +1 strength of saint blaise

> To put it more plainly, why is there a timing window to do anything before the > card burns? Or, put yet another way, why is the burning of the card delayed > for some indeterminate time to allow other (non-triggered) effects? > Because it's a state-based effect, you have to choose to examine the state. So whenever you play an effect, you create a mandatory effect to examine the card before moving to the next "action" (turn phase, or minion phase action). For example, whenever a minion loses a blood during your minion phase, you create a mandatory effect to see if the minion must hunt. But just like the mandatory effects in your Untap, you can order them any way you choose. Thus, when you remove a counter from the Powerbase, you set up the mandatory check effect, but you need not examine the card until you finish playing other effects in that "action," which would include adding a counter via Church of the Order of Saint Blaise.