rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Undead Persistence

7 messages from 4 participants · 09 November 1999 – 15 November 1999
original thread on Google Groups

James Coupe

Just how does this work? I got confused by the massive presence of it at Portsmouth on Saturday. Does it save you from going to torpor completely, even if you then get sent to torpor again? Say, I hit you when you're on 0 and send you to torpor. You play Undead Persistence and stick around, pressing to the next round. I then play Coma to send you to torpor again. Does the Undead Persistence still stop you from going to torpor? -- James Coupe

pie...@my-deja.com

In article <Pine.SOL.4.10a.99110...@red.csi.cam.ac.uk>, James Coupe <jr...@hermes.cam.ac.uk> wrote: > Just how does this work? Well, Let's start out this with a review of the exact card text and rulings that have been made about it. - Undead Persistence Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Fortitude Prevent this vampire from going into torpor. This vampire gets an optional press. When combat ends, or if 3 rounds of combat pass with no cards played, this vampire is sent into torpor. (S) Prevent 2 damage. - Official Rulings Combat Cards which are not usable by vampires going to Torpor only check to see if the vampire is currently going to torpor, not if the vampire will be going to Torpor later. E.g., A vampire with Undead Persistence can still play these types of cards. [LSJ 19970304] - Undead Persistence - Combat (for) Provides only one optional press. Any further pressing must come from other cards. [TOM 19951224] - The card actually works like this: March Halcyon enters combat with Jacko. no manuvers (ever) March hits Jacko for one Jacko hits March for one Jacko hits March for one again, because Jacko's the Bomb ;-) March should be going to torpor, but instead, she plays UP. She does not go to torpor and there is a press to continue combat. Additionally, she will not go to torpor until combat ends or she is burned. Those are the only two ways to stop the shreds of what is left of March from coming after you. The bad news is that March can play taste of vitae at this point since she is not leaving the active region and going to torpor at this time. Jacko can play a Blur or Lightning Reflexes all he wants, March probably does not have any more blood to burn and only aggravated damage can burn her so she soaks whatever he dishes out. If Jacko could play coma or entombment, March would still not go to torpor since UP prevents her 'going to torpor' from ending the combat as it normally does. If Jacko can press to end, then combat ends and March winds up in torpor. On the down side, for March at least, she has unhealed damage and can be burned by a single point of aggravated damage at any point after the UP was played. This is somewhat different from normal agg resolution and needs to be watched. Normally, a vampire with unhealed damage is put into torpor immediately and can only be burned by additional agg in the strike that sent them to torpor. With Undead Persistance, a vampire may continue to fight in combat while having unhealed normal damage. At that point, one point of aggravated damage burns the vampire. The good news is that March has fotitude and could prevent the agg of Jacko's burning Wrath with a couple skin of rocks. The even better news is that March is a weenie and people generally don't care what happens to their weenies. Especially when Rushing Jacko - I mean what were you thinking. UP is most often used with small minions (weenies) and traps, at which point there should be enough rounds to make combat go on long enough to take the other vampire with you. David Tatu and David Castles both play nasty weenie undead persistance decks in the Atlanta area and include some dodges or manuver cards to make sure that they can reset the trap by playing a card and make combat go on long enough to take your vampire with them. And then they rapid healing, of course, to get out of jail free. Nasty decks. Makes you really want to go get a flamethrower and finish them off. When you are fighting against the trap undead persistance deck, you have a number of ways to survive: (1) S:CE - playable both before they are going to torpor and after which can be most annoying. When rushed, hit them a couple times to make them go to torpor and S:CE on the next round - off they go to torpor and you get to stand there and laugh. (2) press to end. most of these decks don't have too many presses to continue combat. Undead persistance provides one and trap can provide more, but their deck can't have too many of these or it will jam with them, so a celerity deck can usually end combat with press to ends. (3) Aggravated damge. Tremere handle UP well both because they tend to steal blood and not inflict damage to send to torpor and because they tend to have nasty surprises for you on the second or third round of combat. Assamites just laugh at UP both inferior and superior since more often than not the opposing minion is being burned and not sent to torpor. Gangrel can also play against UP well by waiting until the UP is played and then Clawing, you can usually burn the opposing minion and hopefully prevent most of th damage that you are taking. Flamethrowers, Ivory Bow, Sengir Dagger, Femur, Kali et all. work wonders, but then they always do. However, If you are playing big minions and get stuck without agg or S:CE, you can usually kiss that minion goodbye. The record in Atlanta is one full Annneke with an Assault rifle, three resplendant protectors and two flack jackets being taken out by Giuliano Vincenzi. One trap by Giuliano, one Assault rifle to his face, Undead persistance, and fifteen more rounds of combat (more actually since he dodged a couple of times), but Giuliano got hit by an assualt rilfe 16 times and took out a well protected Anneke who had no S:CE or presses. That is the power of the card. Stu -Your Friendly Neighborhood Camarilla Scholar Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/ Before you buy.

LSJ

[ quoted text not captured ] Hmm. By the most recent card text (the V:TES version), no. It only saves you from going to torpor for the current round (the round in which it was played) - the default for combat cards. This represents a change from the Jyhad wording, which saved you from torpor "until combat ends". -- LSJ (vte...@wizards.com) V:TES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Links to revised rulebook, rulings, errata, and tournament rules: http://www.wizards.com/VTES/rules.asp

davey! sprocket

On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, LSJ wrote: > Hmm. By the most recent card text (the V:TES version), no. is the vtes different from the sabbat version? > It only saves you from going to torpor for the current round (the > round in which it was played) - the default for combat cards. Hmm, I don't think this interpretation is correct. What about the case where a vampire is wounded, and unable to heal? When the vamp is about to go to torpor he plays UP. The round ends. In the new round, the vamp is still wounded, right? And wounded vamps unable to heal their wounds go to torpor. But by this interpretation, the UP can't save him from going to torpor anymore, which makes the optional press and the "three rounds without cards" text kinda pointless. In fact, that whole three rounds business is a pretty strong implication that the card's scope goes beyond the current round. I always read it as preventing the current effect that was sending you to torpor, similar to how Reform Body prevents a vampire from being burned. Thus, if a vamp has unhealable wounds, he can play UP. If the vamp then gets Coma'd in the same round, another UP would be needed to keep the vamp out of torpor, because this is a different torporizing effect. On another note, what about this situation: Jimmy Dunn has zero blood when he finds himself Bum's Rushed by Agatha, who has 4 blood. Agatha, seeing Jimmy has zero blood, elects to merely poke the Pander for one to send him to torpor. Jimmy decides to go down kicking, and plays some potence cards to strike for 4 damage. The strikes resolve. Agatha burns 4 blood to heal her 4 damage. Jimmy has no blood, so he can't heal his 1 damage. He would go to torpor, BUT he instead plays Undead Persistence. He is still ready, but he has one unhealed wound. He then plays Taste of Vitae (this is legal, right?) and slurps up 4 blood. What about the wound he took? Can he heal it now that he has the blood to do so, even though it's kinda after the fact? If he can, he must, right? case 1: If Jimmy can't heal his wounds, and he subsequently takes 1 ag damage, he stays ready, since the ag destroys him, which he prevents by burning blood, right? case 2: If Jimmy can heal his wounds, and he does so, he still goes to torpor at the end of combat, since it's not the wounds sending him there, it's the Undead Persistence, right? -davey!

LSJ

"davey! sprocket" wrote: > > On Tue, 9 Nov 1999, LSJ wrote: > > > Hmm. By the most recent card text (the V:TES version), no. > > is the vtes different from the sabbat version? Yes. My mistake. The V:TES text matches the Jyhad text. The most recent version (the Sabbat version) is the one that yields the "no" result. > > It only saves you from going to torpor for the current round (the > > round in which it was played) - the default for combat cards. > > Hmm, I don't think this interpretation is correct. What about the case > where a vampire is wounded, and unable to heal? When the vamp is about > to go to torpor he plays UP. The round ends. In the new round, the vamp > is still wounded, right? And wounded vamps unable to heal their wounds go > to torpor. But by this interpretation, the UP can't save him from going > to torpor anymore, which makes the optional press and the "three rounds > without cards" text kinda pointless. In fact, that whole three rounds > business is a pretty strong implication that the card's scope goes beyond > the current round. > > I always read it as preventing the current effect that was sending you to > torpor, similar to how Reform Body prevents a vampire from being burned. Well, that's how it currently (Sabbat version) reads, yes. Sorry for my fumbled wording (above). It "prevents" the current trip to torpor. > Thus, if a vamp has unhealable wounds, he can play UP. If the vamp then > gets Coma'd in the same round, another UP would be needed to keep the vamp > out of torpor, because this is a different torporizing effect. That's how it currently works. The V:TES/Jyhad text kept the vampire from going to torpor "until combat ends or 3 rounds ..." > On another note, what about this situation: Jimmy Dunn has zero blood when > he finds himself Bum's Rushed by Agatha, who has 4 blood. Agatha, seeing > Jimmy has zero blood, elects to merely poke the Pander for one to send him > to torpor. Jimmy decides to go down kicking, and plays some potence cards > to strike for 4 damage. The strikes resolve. Agatha burns 4 blood to > heal her 4 damage. Jimmy has no blood, so he can't heal his 1 damage. He > would go to torpor, BUT he instead plays Undead Persistence. He is still > ready, but he has one unhealed wound. > He then plays Taste of Vitae (this is legal, right?) and slurps up > 4 blood. Yes. > What about the wound he took? Can he heal it now that he has the > blood to do so, even though it's kinda after the fact? If he can, he > must, right? He cannot. Damage cannot be retroactively healed, and Taste is played "after strike resolution", by card text. > case 1: If Jimmy can't heal his wounds, and he subsequently takes > 1 ag damage, he stays ready, since the ag destroys him, which he prevents > by burning blood, right? Correct. > case 2: If Jimmy can heal his wounds, and he does so, he still > goes to torpor at the end of combat, since it's not the wounds sending him > there, it's the Undead Persistence, right? Moot, but, in theory, yes. [ quoted text not captured ]

davey! sprocket

thanks for all the clarification. one more question: when Undead Persistence sends you to torpor due to no cards being played during the combat (say there is a Trap in effect...), you can use another Undead Persistence to prevent that torporization as usual, right? -davey!

LSJ

[ quoted text not captured ] Yes. But you couldn't do the same trick if your going to torpor from Undead Persistence "when combat ends" - it would be too late to play another Undead Persistence at that point. [ quoted text not captured ]