rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad

Vote deck under the 7/7 rules

14 messages from 7 participants · 21 August 1998 – 27 August 1998
original thread on Google Groups

Michael Beer

I want to construct a reliable (Presence based) vote deck under the 7/7 rules. Sadly, beside from me, no one in my play group plays vote decks regulary, and those who had some were heavily dependant on vote pushing. Since the 7/7 rules altered the vote environment dramatically by forbidding this tactic, getting ones votes passed needs careful planning. This is my 7/7 version of my conventional Ventrue Vote deck. I appreciate any ideas to improve it. Michael Beer Crypt: Emmerson Sir Walter Sir Walter Timothy Melissa Gideon Ranjan Courtland Violette Gideon Roland Rufina Library Master: 15 1x Presence 2x Fortitude 1x Dominate 2x Ventrue Headquarters 1x Ventrue Directorate Assembly 1x Uptown Huntingground 1x Inbase Discothek 3x Blood Doll 1x Minion Tap 1x Sudden Reversal 1x The Barrens Actions: 6 3x Force of Will 2x Charming Lobby 1x 5th Tradition Political Actions: 20 8x Kine Recources Contested 3x Consangineous Boon 2x Kindred Restructure 4x Praxis: Seizure (different cities) 1x Ventrue Justicar 2x Disputed Territory Equipment: 2 2x 44er Magnum Retainers none Allies: 1 1x Political Ally Modifiers: 24 5x Bribes 3x Awe 2x Cryptic Rider 5x Voter Captivation 5x Bewitching Oration 4x Bonding Reactions: 9 3x 2nd Tradition 3x Wake of Evening's Freshness 3x Deflection Combat: 12 4x Majesty 4x Skin of Night 2x Skin of Steel 2x Dodge Total number of cards: 90 Tactic: Bleed'n Vote. Survive combat. The deck will be crippled by consistent hostile intercepting, an extremely hostile vote environment or dedicated anti-minion warfare Bleed defense: Some Untap & Bleed bounce, good pool gain Vote defense: own votes Combat defense: S:CE & Fortitude House rules: Official DCI-rules, 7/7 Rules Deck by: Michael Beer, Dortmund, Germany

Jasper Phillips

In article <35DDDEA8...@leila.ping.de>, Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote: [snip] If you're going with princes, etc. It might be worth working in More Minion Tap/5th Tradition. That really is a different kind of deck, though it is a more effective pool gainer than Consanguinous Boon used with 3rd Tradition. >This is my 7/7 version of my conventional Ventrue Vote deck. > >I appreciate any ideas to improve it. > >Michael Beer [snip] >Equipment: 2 > > 2x 44er Magnum Well, pretty much all weapons suck, but if you're going to use weapons here, either go for SnS since it's cheaper, or the Deer Rifle, since the extra maneuvers are more likely to confound rush decks. >Allies: 1 > > 1x Political Ally Amusing, but expensive, slow, fragile, and can't even add stealth. >Modifiers: 24 > > 5x Bribes > 3x Awe > 2x Cryptic Rider > 5x Voter Captivation > 5x Bewitching Oration > 4x Bonding More bonding would be nice, since that extra +1 stealth can occasionally help to get over permanent intercept, and it's quite useable by itself. >Reactions: 9 > > 3x 2nd Tradition > 3x Wake of Evening's Freshness > 3x Deflection > >Combat: 12 > > 4x Majesty > 4x Skin of Night > 2x Skin of Steel > 2x Dodge Why Dodge? Majesty is always better against anything except Dog Packs... I'd go with more Skin of Steel or Majesty. Also, you might want to work in a few Day Ops for those Vital Kindred Restructurings. Obedience might be a good idea as well. >Total number of cards: 90 > >Tactic: Bleed'n Vote. Survive combat. The deck will be crippled by >consistent hostile intercepting, an extremely hostile vote environment >or dedicated anti-minion >warfare The only thing I can see is that it seems a little bit too watered down... but it looks in general like the right idea to me. -- /\ Jasper Phillips /VVVVVVVVVVVVVV|~"~"~"~"~"~"----------........____ jaz j^^^^^^^^^^^^^\/"~"~"~"~-----------........._____ ~"~--. * http://www.engr.orst.edu/~philljas/ "~"~'--`

James Coupe

In article <35DDDEA8...@leila.ping.de>, Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> writes >Michael Beer > >Crypt: > >Emmerson >Sir Walter >Sir Walter >Timothy Hmmm.... only four voting vampires and only three different ones. I know it'd ruin the all-Ventrue theme, but I'd throw Rake in. Superior presence, six capacity and a prince. The main cards he can't use are the Skins of Steel and of Night, and you will have another vampire out to count as the Ventrue for your Venture cards. The Force of Wills and the Bondings are no great loss either. You're major way of getting at someone should be votes. Consider him, at least. He might become a burden, being unable to play a few of your prayer style cards when you need them, but he might be useful too. >Library > >Master: 15 > > > 1x Presence > 2x Fortitude > 1x Dominate > 2x Ventrue Headquarters > 1x Ventrue Directorate Assembly > 1x Uptown Huntingground Fine, I suppose. Presence might be more important than Fortitude, perhaps, from a skill card point of view. > 1x Inbase Discothek I'd be tempted to ditch the IDF. Are you going to hunt that often? > 3x Blood Doll > 1x Minion Tap > 1x Sudden Reversal > 1x The Barrens > >Actions: 6 > > > 3x Force of Will > 2x Charming Lobby > 1x 5th Tradition Good, allows flexibility. But is Charming Lobby ever really worth it? I know that sometimes, over Cryptic Rider, we've all yelled "Kill it" at the players capable of killing the vote (especially if someone's seen the hand with, say, Auspex and can pull off the lie convincingly). I just tend to find that the ability to pass votes using things like this is sketchy at best. I might be tempted to bolster the 5th Traditions. Reduces the need for IDF, too, and works even if you have titles, but can't get the votes passed (unlike Voter Captivation). > >Political Actions: 20 > > > 8x Kine Recources Contested > 3x Consangineous Boon > 2x Kindred Restructure > 4x Praxis: Seizure (different cities) Venice - *so* unlikely to be contested (no natural Prince of it) Istanbul - no-one with any sense plays Murat Glasgow - the lack of PRO makes Katarina a little unattractive to Gangrel players The last title is up to you - I'd hedge between Frankfurt (you can possibly outlast Volker) and Athens (contesting weakens Spiridonas's special) > 1x Ventrue Justicar > 2x Disputed Territory > >Equipment: 2 > > > 2x 44er Magnum I might be tempted to include a Deer Rifle - maybe one of each. Less damage but could cause another deck a few problems with its intense maneuverability. And your lack of real combat defence is a real problem. >Allies: 1 > > > 1x Political Ally You have no way to defend him. He's cool, but dead weight - he won't get his bleed through and he can't defend you. > >Modifiers: 24 > > > 5x Bribes > 3x Awe > 2x Cryptic Rider > 5x Voter Captivation > 5x Bewitching Oration > 4x Bonding > Generally fine. Possibly drop a bribe in favour of a Bewitching Oration. If you can get the votes yourself, you don't need other people voting in your favour. >Reactions: 9 > > > 3x 2nd Tradition > 3x Wake of Evening's Freshness > 3x Deflection > A fair mix. A little intercept too. Good call. >Combat: 12 > > > 4x Majesty > 4x Skin of Night > 2x Skin of Steel > 2x Dodge Is aggravated damage a real problem in your group? If not, I might be tempted to drop two of the Skin of Night for, maybe, Rock. That then gives you the flexibility against non-strike damage. -- James Coupe (Prince of Mercia) Change nospam to obeah to reply Vampire: Elder Kindred Network http://madnessnetwork.hexagon.net

Michael Beer

Jasper Phillips wrote: > In article <35DDDEA8...@leila.ping.de>, > Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote: > > [snip] > > If you're going with princes, etc. It might be worth working in > More Minion Tap/5th Tradition. That really is a different kind of > deck, though it is a more effective pool gainer than Consanguinous > Boon used with 3rd Tradition. > The good with CB is that you can use it as a favor, since pool is more likely to draw other meths at your side. You're right. Minion Tap/5th Trad is a more effective pool gainer and that it is a different deck (In fact, in such a deck would have used bigger vamps) > > > > >This is my 7/7 version of my conventional Ventrue Vote deck. > > > >I appreciate any ideas to improve it. > > > >Michael Beer > > [snip] > > >Equipment: 2 > > > > 2x 44er Magnum > > Well, pretty much all weapons suck, but if you're going to use weapons > here, either go for SnS since it's cheaper, or the Deer Rifle, since > the extra maneuvers are more likely to confound rush decks. > Hm. I think you're right. I will go with the Deer Rifle, because of the safety effect. > > > > >Allies: 1 > > > > 1x Political Ally > > Amusing, but expensive, slow, fragile, and can't even add stealth. Amusing: YES Expensive: If your vote deck works, you have enough pool to spend Slow: What do you mean by this? Fragile: Yep. He could really benefit from a Deer Rifle which makes him more useful. Can't even add stealth: Yep. But the ability to bleed for 3 is a good intimidation effect: if you block my vamp, my ally will make you regret it... > > > > > >Modifiers: 24 > > > > 5x Bribes > > 3x Awe > > 2x Cryptic Rider > > 5x Voter Captivation > > 5x Bewitching Oration > > 4x Bonding > > More bonding would be nice, since that extra +1 stealth can occasionally > help to get over permanent intercept, and it's quite useable by itself. I don't have bleed cards offering +1 stealth, so the Bondings will carry me only over guys without permanent intercept. Perhaps I exchange a Bonding for a (my only) Daring the Dawn (nice with Force of Will & Skin of Night) > >Combat: 12 > > > > 4x Majesty > > 4x Skin of Night > > 2x Skin of Steel > > 2x Dodge > > Why Dodge? Majesty is always better against anything except Dog Packs... > I'd go with more Skin of Steel or Majesty. > Of course. The dodges are for the Political Ally. Perhaps I will exchange them for two more Skin of Steels, leaving my ally to his deer rifle. > > > > Also, you might want to work in a few Day Ops for those Vital Kindred > Restructurings. Obedience might be a good idea as well. > I want a 90 card deck. What can I drop? After some reflections, I decided to replace one of the KRCs for a Parity Shift. > > > > The only thing I can see is that it seems a little bit too watered down... > but it looks in general like the right idea to me. > That's why I asked for ideas to improve it. Michael Beer

Michael Beer

James Coupe wrote: > In article <35DDDEA8...@leila.ping.de>, Michael Beer > <Mi...@leila.ping.de> writes > >Michael Beer > > > >Crypt: > > > >Emmerson > >Sir Walter > >Sir Walter > >Timothy > > Hmmm.... only four voting vampires and only three different ones. I > know it'd ruin the all-Ventrue theme, but I'd throw Rake in. Superior > presence, six capacity and a prince. Hm. Yes. good idea. I will simply add him. > The main cards he can't use are > the Skins of Steel and of Night, and you will have another vampire out > to count as the Ventrue for your Venture cards. To be exact, he is no Ventrue, he has neither Dominate nor Fortitude, but is Prince. > The Force of Wills and > the Bondings are no great loss either. Wrong. One Force of Will replaces a Freak Drive and an inferior Govern the Unaligned bleed, and the Bondings are in there to let the bleed succeed. The ability to attack the pool of my prey in multiple ways in one turn is valuable. > You're major way of getting at > someone should be votes. Yep. And: It is. Most hostile actions *are* votes. But I don't want to be shut down completely if this part of the deck doesn't work (because of intercept or hostile voters) > > > > >Library > > > >Master: 15 > > > > > > 1x Presence > > 2x Fortitude > > 1x Dominate > > 2x Ventrue Headquarters > > 1x Ventrue Directorate Assembly > > 1x Uptown Huntingground > > Fine, I suppose. Presence might be more important than Fortitude, > perhaps, from a skill card point of view. Yep. But most vamps *have* PRE, and FOR is important for my vamps too. Especially if I go with Rake. > > > > > > 1x Inbase Discothek > > I'd be tempted to ditch the IDF. Are you going to hunt that often? Awe, Force of Will and combat may drain my vamps of blood swiftly. The faster my vamps regain blood, the less actions I must waste to let them regenerate. Normally I don't need it, because I want to fill my vamps to capacity with Voter Captivation. This is a redundant security card to prevent the worst if things go wrong. But: I just noticed that I will drop it. I forgot the ELYSIUM Arboretum. I must steal someone else's Huntinggrounds with Disputed Territory then to have decent blood recources ;) > >Actions: 6 > > > > > > 3x Force of Will > > 2x Charming Lobby > > 1x 5th Tradition > > Good, allows flexibility. But is Charming Lobby ever really worth it? Yep. Since I don't have too much voters, CL gives me 2 additional votes (at superior) AND has a build in Cryptic Rider for FREE, this card will be invaluable. You only need two vamps to perform the trick, which makes CL playable. > > > > I know that sometimes, over Cryptic Rider, we've all yelled "Kill it" at > the players capable of killing the vote (especially if someone's seen > the hand with, say, Auspex and can pull off the lie convincingly). I > just tend to find that the ability to pass votes using things like this > is sketchy at best. This was most true under pre 7/7 rules. Now I consider this card to be a very good way to get my votes passed. Example: Gideon Fontane Charming Lobby + any vote (1+2 votes) Gideon adds Bewitching Oration (1+6 votes) Calling a vote with Charming Lobby is as good as if Gideon would be Prince. If you bribed the vote it is very likely to pass, in emergency cases use Awe. Gideon adds Awe, burning 3 blood (1+6+7 votes) 14 votes of *one* vamp should suffice to let the vote pass. And the next vote passes automaticly anyway. Normally you have to have Ventrue HQ in play too, and the Ventrue Directorate Assembly may be the peak of political power. > I might be tempted to bolster the 5th Traditions. > Reduces the need for IDF, too, and works even if you have titles, but > can't get the votes passed (unlike Voter Captivation). > I tend to work hard to ensure that my votes pass. And if I am sure that my votes pass, I don't want to spend an action to fill my vamps - I want to do it as a modifier and gain pool for it! That is faster and, when the deck is correctly constructed, reliable. > > > > > > >Political Actions: 20 > > 4x Praxis: Seizure (different cities) > > Venice - *so* unlikely to be contested (no natural Prince of it) > Istanbul - no-one with any sense plays Murat Really? You never saw a POT OBF SER deck with Murat and Suheila along with some Setites and Nosferatu, did you? (*That* is a deck in which I heavily use the Traditions...) > > > > Glasgow - the lack of PRO makes Katarina a little unattractive to > Gangrel players You forgot that she has pot, and that Wolf Claws only require pro to make the damage aggro. But she is too expensive, that is right. > > > > The last title is up to you - I'd hedge between Frankfurt (you can > possibly outlast Volker) and Athens (contesting weakens Spiridonas's > special) > I thought about Cairo (+1 cap, Suheila shows up not too often and the cap increase bolsters Awe), Berlin (+1 cap, same with Wilhelm) Athens (weaken Spiridonas) Frankfurt (shut down Volker) > > > > > 1x Ventrue Justicar > > 2x Disputed Territory > > > >Equipment: 2 > > > > > > 2x 44er Magnum > > I might be tempted to include a Deer Rifle - maybe one of each. Less > damage but could cause another deck a few problems with its intense > maneuverability. And your lack of real combat defence is a real > problem. Yep. I will exchange both Magnums for Deer Rifles. > > > > > >Allies: 1 > > > > > > 1x Political Ally > > You have no way to defend him. He's cool, but dead weight - he won't > get his bleed through and he can't defend you. You saw me in Praxis: Seizure Portsmouth. Did I DEFEND myself? Seriously, I suppose that I have enough pool to spend, and he costs 2 pool and can bleed for 3. He is in there for binding defenses of my prey. Fragile, yes. One of the merits of functional vote decks is that they don't need to worry about pool. They *have* it in abundance. When your prey killed him, show him your Force of Wills. > > > > > > > >Modifiers: 24 > > > > > > 5x Bribes > > 3x Awe > > 2x Cryptic Rider > > 5x Voter Captivation > > 5x Bewitching Oration > > 4x Bonding > > > > Generally fine. Possibly drop a bribe in favour of a Bewitching > Oration. If you can get the votes yourself, you don't need other people > voting in your favour. Good argument. 4 Bribes and 6 Bewitching Orations. Yes, sir. > > > > > >Reactions: 9 > > > > > > 3x 2nd Tradition > > 3x Wake of Evening's Freshness > > 3x Deflection > > > > A fair mix. A little intercept too. Good call. > > >Combat: 12 > > > > > > 4x Majesty > > 4x Skin of Night > > 2x Skin of Steel > > 2x Dodge > > Is aggravated damage a real problem in your group? If not, I might be > tempted to drop two of the Skin of Night for, maybe, Rock. That then > gives you the flexibility against non-strike damage. The Skin of Nights are in here to combinate with Force of Will. I don't want my valuable minions to suck aggravated damage. Perhaps I will drop a Bonding and exchange it for a Daring the Dawn. The combination is then: Force of Will + Daring the Dawn (+ Bonding) + Skin of Night. Bleed unblockably (or, in another case, vote unblockably) without entering torpor. Michael Beer

James Coupe

In article <35DE80B4...@leila.ping.de>, Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> writes >The Skin of Nights are in here to combinate with Force of Will. I don't want >my valuable minions to suck aggravated damage. Combat cards are still only playable in combat - the reason for the Rutors rewrite. However, they are now playable at ANY point in combat. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jasper Phillips

In article <35DE7433...@leila.ping.de>, Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote: >Jasper Phillips wrote: >> > >> > 2x 44er Magnum >> >> Well, pretty much all weapons suck, but if you're going to use weapons >> here, either go for SnS since it's cheaper, or the Deer Rifle, since >> the extra maneuvers are more likely to confound rush decks. > >Hm. I think you're right. I will go with the Deer Rifle, because of the safety >effect. These can really be annoying if you also have a sprinkling of Fortitude and Majesty. Most Rush decks decidedly have a problem figuring out how many maneuvers to put in. I'd up the ratio of Majesty and SoS just for this reason. >> > 1x Political Ally >> >> Amusing, but expensive, slow, fragile, and can't even add stealth. > >Amusing: YES >Expensive: If your vote deck works, you have enough pool to spend But it would in general be better spent on a vampire, for instance, or any number of other things. >Slow: What do you mean by this? Simple. It takes an action, with which you could better vote with, etc. >Fragile: Yep. He could really benefit from a Deer Rifle which makes him more >useful. However, without the extra S:CE and Fortitude to back it up, you're most likely simply spending 5 pool (which you can't even get back with a blood doll), for something that will still die. >Can't even add stealth: Yep. But the ability to bleed for 3 is a good >intimidation effect: if you block my vamp, my ally will make you regret it... Hmmmm. Very marginal in my experience. I'd rather have the far greater flexibility of another vampire (voting, blood doll, CBoon target, combat defense, more than 1 life, stealth, ad infinitum). >> > 4x Bonding >> >> More bonding would be nice, since that extra +1 stealth can occasionally >> help to get over permanent intercept, and it's quite useable by itself. > >I don't have bleed cards offering +1 stealth, so the Bondings will carry me >only over guys without permanent intercept. Perhaps I exchange a Bonding for a >(my only) Daring the Dawn (nice with Force of Will & Skin of Night) Huh? Bonding does add stealth... an that extra stealth can indeed be enough to get a _vote_ over light permanent intercept. [ quoted text not captured ]

Jasper Phillips

In article <35DE80B4...@leila.ping.de>, Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote: >James Coupe wrote: > >> Istanbul - no-one with any sense plays Murat > >Really? You never saw a POT OBF SER deck with Murat and Suheila along with >some Setites and Nosferatu, did you? (*That* is a deck in which I heavily >use the Traditions...) Man, I sure never have, but I'd like to! Care to post it? [Snip, debate on choices for Praxis'] What about Geneva? Doesn't weaken anyone in particular, but it is a +1 capactity for Ventrue... >The Skin of Nights are in here to combinate with Force of Will. I don't want >my valuable minions to suck aggravated damage. >Perhaps I will drop a Bonding and exchange it for a Daring the Dawn. > >The combination is then: > >Force of Will + Daring the Dawn (+ Bonding) + Skin of Night. > >Bleed unblockably (or, in another case, vote unblockably) without entering >torpor. Hmmmm, but you don't have enough of either to do it very reliably at all, and the Skin of Nights are pretty damn well useless by themselves... Combine that with the fact that you're light on combat defense, and I'd definitly rather have something like Rolling with the Punches, or SoS. [ quoted text not captured ]

Michael Beer

Jasper Phillips wrote: > In article <35DE80B4...@leila.ping.de>, > Michael Beer <Mi...@leila.ping.de> wrote: > >James Coupe wrote: > > > >> Istanbul - no-one with any sense plays Murat > > > >Really? You never saw a POT OBF SER deck with Murat and Suheila along with > >some Setites and Nosferatu, did you? (*That* is a deck in which I heavily > >use the Traditions...) > > Man, I sure never have, but I'd like to! Care to post it? > no prob. > > > > [Snip, debate on choices for Praxis'] > > What about Geneva? Doesn't weaken anyone in particular, but it is a +1 > capactity for Ventrue... > GOOD! I am not sure if I own this card, but nice idea. > > > > >The Skin of Nights are in here to combinate with Force of Will. I don't want > >my valuable minions to suck aggravated damage. > >Perhaps I will drop a Bonding and exchange it for a Daring the Dawn. > > > >The combination is then: > > > >Force of Will + Daring the Dawn (+ Bonding) + Skin of Night. > > > >Bleed unblockably (or, in another case, vote unblockably) without entering > >torpor. > > Hmmmm, but you don't have enough of either to do it very reliably at > all, and the Skin of Nights are pretty damn well useless by themselves... > Combine that with the fact that you're light on combat defense, and > I'd definitly rather have something like Rolling with the Punches, > or SoS. > Perhaps it is illegal to use FoW along with SoN. If this is true, I will exchange the SoN with 2x Rolling with the Punches and 2x Resilience. Michael Beer

PDB6

James Coupe wrote: "Istanbul - no-one with any sense plays Murat" Hey! I like Murat! Ok, maybe he isn't _that_ useful, but a 7 point Prince with POT and OBF is pretty much just better than Selma (in many decks), and heck, he might even be worth playing in a POT/OBF Rush deck. I use him in my Nosferatu Spawning deck, as he in a Nosferatu Prince with OBF, which is all he needs for the deck... Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "You're lucky to even know me. You're lucky to be alive." -Liz Phair

Kevin Kelly

Jasper Phillips wrote: > > Huh? Bonding does add stealth... an that extra stealth can indeed be enough > to get a _vote_ over light permanent intercept. Can you use Bonding "+1 bleed, +1 Stealth" to get stealth on a political action (ignoring the bleed part) or can it only be used to modify a bleed. I guess I just never thought of this as a stealth card. Kevin

Gomi no Sensei

In article <199808240156...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, PDB6 <pd...@aol.com> wrote: >James Coupe wrote: >"Istanbul - no-one with any sense plays Murat" >Hey! I like Murat! Ok, maybe he isn't _that_ useful, but a 7 point Prince >with POT and OBF is pretty much just better than Selma (in many decks), and >heck, he might even be worth playing in a POT/OBF Rush deck. I love Murat, too, and would have more of her (she *is* wearing a dress, for what that's worth, although with Nosferatu who can tell -- I think Watenda's female too) in my decks if I had more than one. boo hoo. >I use him in my Nosferatu Spawning deck, as he in a Nosferatu Prince with OBF, >which is all he needs for the deck... She replaces a Selma in my Malk/Nos breeder deck ("Those Dimples are perfectly Normal"), where the crypt goes 3xGreger Anderssen 3xGilbert Duane 3xNikolaus Vermeulen 2xSelma the Repugnant 1xMurat And it'd be all Murat if I had 2 more. gomi

LSJ

phil...@tx.ENGR.ORST.EDU (Jasper Phillips) wrote: > Huh? Bonding does add stealth... an that extra stealth can indeed be enough > to get a _vote_ over light permanent intercept. Can't play bonding on a non-bleed action, since it is a bleed modifier. -- L. Scott Johnson (vte...@wizards.com) VTES Net.Rep for Wizards of the Coast. Searchable database of official card text, errata, and rulings: http://deckserver.net/cgi-deckserver/rulemonger.cgi/powersearch -----== Posted via Deja News, The Leader in Internet Discussion ==----- http://www.dejanews.com/rg_mkgrp.xp Create Your Own Free Member Forum

PDB6

Gomi wrote: "She replaces a Selma in my Malk/Nos breeder deck ("Those Dimples are perfectly Normal"), where the crypt goes 3xGreger Anderssen 3xGilbert Duane 3xNikolaus Vermeulen 2xSelma the Repugnant 1xMurat" My Nosferatu breeding deck, "Don't hate us because we are beautiful..." is a wacky Pre/Obf deck that relies on Bewitching Oration, Majesty, Cloak the Gathering, Con Boon, and a whole bunch of 3rd Traditions. It is pretty funny. If it isn't killed quickly and has time to set up a bit, it produces an obscene amount of pool. It usualy ends the game with over 60 pool (that is when it isn't killed in the first 4 turns...). I wanted to capitalize on the Nosferatu with Pre, so my crypt consists of: 3x Harrod 3x Amadeo 1x Selma 1x Murat 2x Nikolaus 2x Dimple You really think Murat is a female? Weird. I always thought he looked (in that Nosferatu sort of way) pretty male to me. He isn't in a dress, necessarily, it's one of those Lawrence of Arabia robes. I'm pretty sure Murat is a male (not that it maters), just like KoKo :-) Peter D Bakija PD...@aol.com "The sound of gunfire. Off in the distance. I'm getting used to it now." -Talking Heads