[LSJ] Henry Taylor

Hi Guys Something nasty came up in a game tonight. Henry Taylor in play with a protean master and a sports bike. Now Henry's special caused some serious headaches when used with superior earth meld. Sabbat: After an action, you may move a combat card Henry played during that action from your ash heap to the top of your library. My question is can Henry recycle a combat card after every action he is involved in (i.e. his own actions, blocking others etc) OR can he only do it after an action which he initiates? If its the former is creates an evil loop in which any non stealth decks are unable to move forward at all as Henry can continuously recycle two earth melds forever and block EVERY single action taken against his Methuselah. A ruling on this would be very helpful as it caused the Brujah Anti deck (bruise and bleed) I was playing tonight to be unable to kill my prey at all (being unable to successfully bleed, combat, vote etc). At the time I had in play Jacko, Salinger, Evangeline, Frederick, Miguel Santo Domingo and Julian Sanders. I also had 2 VPs at that stage. However Henry's controller was able to bloat up nicely from about 6 pool as I was unable to gain the edge. In the end I withdrew to end the pain of being unable to take any actions. Regards James

James Scott expounded: > Hi Guys > > Something nasty came up in a game tonight. Henry Taylor in play with a > protean master > and a sports bike. Now Henry's special caused some serious headaches when > used with superior earth meld. > > Sabbat: After an action, you may move a combat card Henry played during that > action from your ash heap to the top of your library. > > My question is can Henry recycle a combat card after every action he is > involved in (i.e. his own actions, blocking others etc) OR can he only do it > after an action which he initiates? > > If its the former is creates an evil loop in which any non stealth decks are > unable to move forward at all as Henry can continuously recycle two earth > melds forever and block EVERY single action taken against his Methuselah. I believe that it is indeed the former. Psyche! is your friend. (we all know Protean is broken ;)

Interesting that there's a post about Henry here, because I was about to ask some questions about him myself: 1) If Henry plays a Weighted Walking stick, and strikes enough to burn it during the combat, can you retrieve it? 2) If Henry plays Save Face during another vampire's action, can you retrieve it?

"Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message news:aaE6c.40715$_w.603445@attbi_s53... [ quoted text not captured ] I'm not LSJ, but here's my take: 1.) Yes. Its a combat card he played during combat. Same with Zip Gun if its somehow burned prior to the end of the combat in which the card was played (dragons breath rounds, canine horde, etc). However, its ONLY if you both play weighted walking stick AND burn all the counters on it during the same action. 2.) If Henry plays the Save Face, then I would say yes. He did play it during an action, and it is a combat card.. There's NO requirement that he has to be involved in the combat or action, just that he plays the combat card during the action. However, if he is the recipient of the effect of Save Face, it cannot be retrieved. Too bad Henry wasn't a blood brother. How much fun would that be? Jon

Timlagor <TimSl...@yaMhoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<MPG.1ac518c33...@news.eclipse.co.uk>... [ quoted text not captured ] Actually, I would read it as... It's the first one, nothing in the text says an action he does, just an action. examples? These are examples of text where it says "action" but doesn't mean the vampires own actions. Larry Sabbat - Chicago Circle: Once each action, Larry can burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept. Sterile. Persia, The Beautiful Statue Camarilla: Once each action, Persia can burn 1 blood to get +1 intercept Stefano Giovanni Independent: During a political action, Stefano may burn 1 blood to gain 1 vote. Alvaro, The Scion of Angelica Sabbat Archbishop of Pittsburgh. If Alvaro abstains during a political action, he gains 2 blood at the end of that action. +1 bleed.

"James Scott" <tem...@internode.on.net> wrote in message news:405b...@duster.adelaide.on.net... [ quoted text not captured ] Dang nabbit James! Wow that must have really sucked. My guess is that it is the former. Wow. That must have really sucked. I mean: REALLY sucked. I bet you would have given your left arm for an immortal grapple. -tpl

Kulaid expounded: > Timlagor <TimSl...@yaMhoo.co.uk> wrote in message news:<MPG.1ac518c33...@news.eclipse.co.uk>... > > James Scott expounded: > > > Hi Guys > > > > > > Something nasty came up in a game tonight. Henry Taylor in play with a > > > protean master > > > and a sports bike. Now Henry's special caused some serious headaches when > > > used with superior earth meld. > > > > > > Sabbat: After an action, you may move a combat card Henry played during that > > > action from your ash heap to the top of your library. > > > > > > My question is can Henry recycle a combat card after every action he is > > > involved in (i.e. his own actions, blocking others etc) OR can he only do it > > > after an action which he initiates? > > > > > > If its the former is creates an evil loop in which any non stealth decks are > > > unable to move forward at all as Henry can continuously recycle two earth > > > melds forever and block EVERY single action taken against his Methuselah. > > > > I believe that it is indeed the former. > > Psyche! is your friend. > > > > (we all know Protean is broken ;) > > Actually, I would read it as... It's the first one, nothing in the > text says an action he does, just an action. examples? We agree -not sure what this is about.

Tobin Lopes" <tobinhate...@adelphia.fishingnet> wrote in message news:AMednVN2Upd...@adelphia.com... <snip> > Dang nabbit James! Wow that must have really sucked. My guess is that it is > the former. Wow. > > That must have really sucked. > > I mean: REALLY sucked. I bet you would have given your left arm for an > immortal grapple. > > -tpl > Yes it sure did....considering I had already ousted my prey and grand prey and messed up my predator some I was out of cards just about at this stage hehe. James

Timlagor wrote: > James Scott expounded: >>My question is can Henry recycle a combat card after every action he is >>involved in (i.e. his own actions, blocking others etc) OR can he only do it >>after an action which he initiates? > > I believe that it is indeed the former. > Psyche! is your friend. Correct. Contrast Lucita's text. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

Jon Stahler wrote: > "Jozxyqk" <jfeu...@eecs.tufts.edu> wrote in message >>1) If Henry plays a Weighted Walking stick, and strikes enough to burn >>it during the combat, can you retrieve it? >> >>2) If Henry plays Save Face during another vampire's action, can you >>retrieve it? > > 1.) Yes. Its a combat card he played during combat. Same with Zip Gun if > its somehow burned prior to the end of the combat in which the card was > played (dragons breath rounds, canine horde, etc). However, its ONLY if you > both play weighted walking stick AND burn all the counters on it during the > same action. > > 2.) If Henry plays the Save Face, then I would say yes. He did play it > during an action, and it is a combat card.. There's NO requirement that he > has to be involved in the combat or action, just that he plays the combat > card during the action. Correct. [ quoted text not captured ]

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: (snip q) >Correct. >Contrast Lucita's text. Oh. My. So, basically, if my prey´s Henry Taylor gets Protean discipline card and a Sport Bike/Winthrop, and I'm not packing Psyche/IG, or better yet, massive amounts of stealth (especially block denial) my only choice to get any vp:s is withdrawal? The !Brujah have been at the weaker side of clans, but...this loop thingy screws certain (most) decks more than, say, Cailean's special. Surely, it needs some setup, but so needs Cailean, and and Henry is slim 6-capper. -Antero

"AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> schreef in bericht news:ea6a080a.04032...@posting.google.com... > LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote: > (snip q) > >Correct. > >Contrast Lucita's text. > > Oh. My. So, basically, if my prey愀 Henry Taylor gets Protean > discipline card and a Sport Bike/Winthrop, and I'm not packing > Psyche/IG, or better yet, massive amounts of stealth (especially block > denial) my only choice to get any vp:s is withdrawal? > > The !Brujah have been at the weaker side of clans, but...this loop > thingy screws certain (most) decks more than, say, Cailean's special. > Surely, it needs some setup, but so needs Cailean, and and Henry is > slim 6-capper. Oh please. It requires a discipline card, two Earth Meld's and Henry Taylor to be actually untapped at the end of your turn. Furthermore it rquires you to play without any form of stealth or block denial AND without any way to deal with S:CE. This is a fun trick to do, but far from a gamewinner. You can always block his equip actions if you're really that worried about it. Heck, you can Sudden the Protean card for all I care. The problem is not Henry Taylor's special abilty, it's Earth Meld being underpriced, as I have always believed. It *is* the only S:CE card that allows free combat ends at inferior and a might good effect at superior. Majesty doesn't even come close to it, since that card does EXACTLY the same and costs a blood... I might try to build a deck around it though....

"Izaak" <i.hav...@SPAMklg.nl> wrote in message news:c3iqai$k6j$1...@reader10.wxs.nl... [ quoted text not captured ] It isnt as hard to setup as it sounds. People aren't going to sudden a skill master as their first choice, especially across table which I was at the time. For instance I used my sudden on a minion tap which prevented my prey from gaining 8 pool and then allowed me taste most of that blood back after a nice potence combat. It also doesn't help things if you are cross-table when Henry begins to get setup. The main issue I have with this is one vampire can hold off an unlimited amount of bleeders, voters etc without spending any blood or even using cards. Certainly there are ways to beat it, as there are with all strategies BUT name another strategy in which a single vampire can hold off indefinitely even against +1 stealth actions. Thats just my 2 pool James

"James Scott" <tem...@internode.on.net> wrote in message news:405d0d5e$1...@duster.adelaide.on.net... [snip] > The main issue I have with this is one vampire can hold off an unlimited > amount of bleeders, voters etc without spending any blood or even using > cards. Certainly there are ways to beat it, as there are with all > strategies BUT name another strategy in which a single vampire can hold off > indefinitely even against +1 stealth actions. But you did beat it, gaining 3 VPs and a table win. You might need to re-tune your violin. -mikeooi

"Unique Master" <sh...@removethistexas.net> wrote in message news:405d1195$0$3040$61fe...@news.rcn.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I only beat it because to save time we agreed that I could withdraw. Another such person could be far less agreeable. If we had continued playing he could have brought out more vamps etc and eventually I would have lost. My point isn't a cry about that single experience but how it could be exploited in the future especially in a tournament situation. The ability to time out a table simply by being unkillable isn't very interesting now is it. I don't use a violin.....I go for the whole orchestra and its perfectly in tune. James

"Izaak" <i.hav...@SPAMklg.nl> wrote: > > This is a fun trick to do, but far from a gamewinner. snip > The problem is not > Henry Taylor's special abilty, it's Earth Meld being underpriced, as I > have always believed. It might well be, time will tell what impact this Henrythingy will do. But my point is about table balace. Lets assume that you do a POT/PRO rush deck, featuring Henry, Lisette & pals. A few Protean disciplines, media locations and bikes do not dilute the deck too much. Normally, in 5 player game, if you totally beat your predator, it means that you get new, stronger predator. In this case, it does not matter if you can build Henry up meanwhile your grandpredator chews thru your predator's pool. If your grandpredator happens to be a stealthy type, beat him also. It does matter if your grandprey gets 2 pts, if you have crippled your prey too (which you should have done), you'll be last and get 3 vps in the end. Much fighting, but usually the other meths do part of your job, too. Probably a more fluent linquist could have explained this thought more clearly, but I hope you got the idea. -Antero

"James Scott" <tem...@internode.on.net> wrote in message news:405d15f9$1...@duster.adelaide.on.net... [snip] > I only beat it because to save time we agreed that I could withdraw. > Another such person could be far less agreeable. If we had continued > playing he could have brought out more vamps etc and eventually I would have > lost. Maybe you can clarify the game position for me. In an earlier thread you said you were out (or almost out) of cards, which is why you would be able to withdraw "offensively" (actually succeeding to win the VP and the table), which is a great and seldom-used way to win. Did you have an answer to this situation in your ash heap (grapple)? When you're decked, you're decked, my friend. At that point, he who has the best permanents out usually wins. Would it have mattered that instead of Henry Taylor (and I agree, that sounded annoying as hell), your prey had out 6 Embraces with .44 Magnums and intercept locations? Could you have somehow goaded him into taking an action and letting it go unblocked, thus tapping Henry Taylor with no chance to play his Earth Melds? You already deserve a pat on the back for taking 2 vps with a !Brujah deck ; ) I'm sure you could have come up with another strategy to deal with it. The one you used (asking for a withdrawal VP) seemed to work well. (Notice I'm not asking questions like "What if you had Elder Impersonation?" But those cards are in print for a reason, as are Detection, Brujah Frenzy, etc. A Purchase Pact would have shut him down cold. But that's neither here nor there.) > My point isn't a cry about that single experience but how it could be > exploited in the future especially in a tournament situation. Then prove it. Cards or concepts that seem broken need to be broken. Several noteworthy people are doing this right now with PTO. Add yourself to the list and accept the challenge. >The ability to time out a table simply by being unkillable isn't very interesting now is it. No. But you also don't need Henry Taylor to do it. That's why people hate wall decks. But being able to time out a table while winning it is interesting, as it wins the table. > I don't use a violin.....I go for the whole orchestra and its perfectly in > tune. Granted, but I don't hear the fat lady singing just yet ; ) -moiekio

"Unique Master" <sh...@removethistexas.net> wrote in message news:405d5ef2$0$3046$61fe...@news.rcn.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Thanks for the compliment :) Yes I had grapple's. I could have dealt with it earlier in the game most probably. Elder impersonation has also been suggested by a playgroup friend so I'll try the deck with it in. The game situation was that I had 6 vamps on the table with half to full blood, he had Henry on 2 blood and 4 pool. I probably had about 12 cards left total including a whole KRC/Bewitch/Iron Glare/Vote cap ready to go but because of Henry it was impossible to even attempt calling it. The deck has done surprisingly well and has taken a minimum of 3 VPS in each game except one. If anyone wants me to post it I will. As regards to Henry being on a PTO level of brokenness I think that would be a fair comparison as far as game effect goes. I'm not giving any thoughts about how PTO should be changed etc but when compared to other vampires abilities Henry's has no cost, no downside and can be used X times a turn where X is how many combats he is in. A simple fix I think would be to make it only applicable to combats which result from actions he initiates OR make it have some cost (not necessarily a blood cost). The opponent who was using Henry knows exactly what he is doing and would not commit to an action with him unless he had a wake :) I am definitely including either Elder Interventions or some generic intercept like a KRCG or two. Yes I believe it would have made a big difference if they had been embrace weenies with .44 Magnums or anything else I can think of because I could have done damage. Basically it was the fact that there was nothing I could do that got me so annoyed. Not being able to do any actions with six minions is very disturbing lol Thanks for everyone's replies. James

Izaak wrote: > it's Earth Meld being underpriced, as I > have always believed. It *is* the only S:CE card that allows free combat > ends at inferior and a might good effect at superior. Majesty doesn't > even come close to it, since that card does EXACTLY the same and costs a > blood... Earth Meld is just fine. Yes. Majesty does the exact same thing and costs a blood. Majesty also comes in the context of a discipline that lets you bleed for up to 6 per action. Or lets you essentially automatically pass votes, gain pool, and refill your vampires all in on action. Cards are context dependant. You could claim that Flash is too powerful by the same logic--I mean Flash at inferior lets you manuver *or* press (to continue *or* cancel) and at superior, it gives you both! That is crazy! I mean, Apportation, at inferior gives you *only* a press to continue and at superior gives you *only* a manuver. That is clearly inferior. Flash should cost a blood! Oh, wait. That isn't true at all. Yes. Earth Meld is powerful. But in the context of the rest of the discipline (i.e. Protean), it is reasonable, what with the rest of the discipline probably killing someone, or at the very least, S:CEing and then continuing the action at +1 stealth. And in the context of the only clan/s that comes with inherrent protean (Gangrel/!Gangrel), what is Earth Meld really gonna do that is that big of a deal? Allow you to block a lot? They could already do that with Wakes/Forceds/Cats/Dogs, and blocking a lot doesn't make you win. Allow you to untap after getting blocked? They could already do that with Freak Drive, and they don't need to be blocked in the first place. Earth Meld is a strong card. But in context, it is a reasonably powerful card. Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "Punk rock's been pretty good to me for twenty years. It's my year to give back: I'm dedicating the next year of my life to fucking the Bush administration." -Fat Mike, http://www.punkvoter.com

James Scott wrote: > The main issue I have with this is one vampire can hold off an unlimited > amount of bleeders, voters etc without spending any blood or even using > cards. Certainly there are ways to beat it, as there are with all > strategies BUT name another strategy in which a single vampire can hold off > indefinitely even against +1 stealth actions. Cailean with Eternal Vigilance, a Raven Spy, and The Rack. And he'll probably kill you better, too. Or anyone with Eternal Vigilance, a Raven Spy, and The Rack. Or a 5 point vampire with Attonement and a Flak Jacket when you have only weenie vampires. And what the hell is Henry going to do if you, like, Immortally Grapple him? Or play, ya know, stealth? Or Form of Mist? Or Thoughts Betrayed? So not a big deal. How is it any different, really, that playing against a Gangrel deck with a lot of Earth Melds? [ quoted text not captured ]

James Scott wrote: > My point isn't a cry about that single experience but how it could be > exploited in the future especially in a tournament situation. The ability > to time out a table simply by being unkillable isn't very interesting now is > it. It is an incredibly tenuious set up. It requires a Skill Card, and equip action, and then for his predator to never have more than +1 stealth. Or a way to foil his Earth Meld. A Sudden Reversal ends the trip right quick. As does an interception of the Sport Bike. As does killing Henry Taylor in any number of common ways. Yeah, in the situation where your predator successfully: -Plays that Skill Card. -Gets that Sport Bike. -Gets that Earth Meld in hand. when you: -Have no more than +1 stealth ever. -Have no Seductions or Elder Impersonation or other ways to prevent Henry from intercepting. -Can't foil the Earth Meld. -Have no Sudden. -Have no DI. -Have no Intercept. Yeah, you'll be shut down. But there are a lot of situations that will shut down a lot of decks--being a S+B deck faced by a prey with 15 Deflections. Being an IG Rush combat deck face a Gangrel Aggro Poke/Flash of Marble preadtor or prey. Being a Toreador vote deck sitting next to an Intercept Wall deck. These things happen. It doesn't mean the game is flawed. [ quoted text not captured ]

AL wrote: > It might well be, time will tell what impact this Henrythingy will do. Time has already told. It is a neat trick. Sometimes it will totally trump someone. But that happens a lot of times in a lot of different ways. But overall, it is fairly insignificant. Sure, you might end up shut down by a Henry Taylor with a Sport Bike, a Protean Skill card, and an Earth Meld. But you might also have Intercept, Stealth, Sudden Reversals, DIs, Immortal Grapple, Thoughts Betrayed, Seduction, Elder Impersonation, Call of the Hungry Dead, Kiss of Ra, Pentex Subversion, Daring the Dawn, or countelss other cards/strategy choices that make this particular issue a non. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:BC831AE3.14AB5%pd...@lightlink.com... > James Scott wrote: > > > The main issue I have with this is one vampire can hold off an unlimited > > amount of bleeders, voters etc without spending any blood or even using > > cards. Certainly there are ways to beat it, as there are with all > > strategies BUT name another strategy in which a single vampire can hold off > > indefinitely even against +1 stealth actions. > > Cailean with Eternal Vigilance, a Raven Spy, and The Rack. And he'll > probably kill you better, too. Or anyone with Eternal Vigilance, a Raven > Spy, and The Rack. Or a 5 point vampire with Attonement and a Flak Jacket > when you have only weenie vampires. > > And what the hell is Henry going to do if you, like, Immortally Grapple him? > Or play, ya know, stealth? Or Form of Mist? Or Thoughts Betrayed? > > So not a big deal. How is it any different, really, that playing against a > Gangrel deck with a lot of Earth Melds? > <snip> The things you mentioned Peter all have an inherent cost associated with them. Untaping off eternal vigilance costs a blood. The flak jacket only prevents one damage etc. Yes I agree that there are ways around it. However that doesnt mean it doesn't require some attention. As I said before you shouldn't need to alter a deck that works well to combat a very specific tactic. Its VERY different Peter because without Henry's ability the earth melds will run out and so will the wakes/forced's etc. That puts it back into the normal acceptable situation where you can only apply that response to combat a defined number of times. I don't want to see earth meld given a cost, but I would like to see Henry's ability given a little tweak to make it slightly less effective. Thanks James

James Scott wrote: > As regards to Henry being on a PTO level of brokenness I think that would be > a fair comparison as far as game effect goes. ??????? PTO is a single card, that can potentially burn a 10 point, full, untorporized vampire, unblockably (i.e. cross table) with a single card and a single action. For 1 blood (pool?--doesn't matter). Henry, with a Skill card, and a Sport Bike, and an Earth Meld is a clever, difficult to set up, easily foiled, easily circumvented, easily shut down trick that in a small number of circumstances could potentially totally shut down a predator, but in a far larger set of circumstances, will just not really do that much (i.e. when his predator can generate +2 stealth), and is very easy to foil the set up of (Sudden the skill card, intercept the equip action, DI the Sports Bike) and then easy to shut down when it does get operational (kill Henry with anti S:CE combat; Pentex or something similar him; play with stealth). Not even a close to fair comparison. [ quoted text not captured ]

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:BC831CA1.14AB6%pd...@lightlink.com... [ quoted text not captured ] <snip> We will have to disagree there Peter because I don't see getting a master skill card as being a problem at all. The sports bike was only used in that situation. It could have been a KRCG or elder intervention or Tabloid or a heap of other things which would obviously not be as effective but then not every action is inherently at stealth. I agree that a deck with decent stealth would walk all over him in that situation but there are lots of clans (Brujah, !Brujah, Toreador, !Toreador, Giovanni, Tremere, Tzimisce etc etc) which cannot easily get stealth. Before anyone says it I don't consider Alacrity or Stealth Ritus to be acceptable ways of gaining stealth as the cost is far too high. :) As I mentioned in the post below, most things have some inherent cost or disadvantage. Yes a prey with 15 deflections is nasty but that costs 15 blood and requires superior dominate or a hell of a lot of wakes. As previously mentioned, 99% of the time I wouldn't sudden a skill master as unless its the only one in the deck it will happen sooner or later. I'd rather save my SR(s) for things like Fame or Minion Taps etc. The same goes for DI. Thanks James

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:BC831FEF.14ABF%pd...@lightlink.com... > James Scott wrote: > > > As regards to Henry being on a PTO level of brokenness I think that would be > > a fair comparison as far as game effect goes. > > ??????? > > PTO is a single card, that can potentially burn a 10 point, full, > untorporized vampire, unblockably (i.e. cross table) with a single card and > a single action. For 1 blood (pool?--doesn't matter). > > Henry, with a Skill card, and a Sport Bike, and an Earth Meld is a clever, > difficult to set up, easily foiled, easily circumvented, easily shut down > trick that in a small number of circumstances could potentially totally shut > down a predator, but in a far larger set of circumstances, will just not > really do that much (i.e. when his predator can generate +2 stealth), and is > very easy to foil the set up of (Sudden the skill card, intercept the equip > action, DI the Sports Bike) and then easy to shut down when it does get > operational (kill Henry with anti S:CE combat; Pentex or something similar > him; play with stealth). > > Not even a close to fair comparison. > <snip signature> This is where the arguments all fall down. Using the above logic PTO is no more broken that Henry. (Before I continue I will state that I DO agree with you Peter, PTO is badly broken). Worried about PTO, lots of easy solutions. Pack Delaying Tactics, lots of reaction votes, use lots of titled vampires, DI the PTO or the vote mods, rush the IC vamp before they can call, block x-table with eagle sight/falcons eye/Anneke, drop a Fear of Mekhet on the IC etc. Just because there are solutions doesn't mean it shouldn't require some attention. My 2 pool. James

"James Scott" <tem...@internode.on.net> wrote in message news:<405d0d5e$1...@duster.adelaide.on.net>... > > The main issue I have with this is one vampire can hold off an unlimited > amount of bleeders, voters etc without spending any blood or even using > cards. Certainly there are ways to beat it, as there are with all > strategies BUT name another strategy in which a single vampire can hold off > indefinitely even against +1 stealth actions. > Anyone with Atonement, optionally some master: discipline cards and a Sniper Rifle? Alternatively, Cailean or Lazverinus with Eternal Vigilance. They might want a Taste of Vitae every few fights though. Patrick Columbus, OH

James Scott wrote: > The things you mentioned Peter all have an inherent cost associated with > them. Untaping off eternal vigilance costs a blood. The flak jacket only > prevents one damage etc. Yes. And Henry Taylor only has 1 intercept. And gets killed by innumerable anti S:CE plans. The Eternal Vigilance costs a blood, sure. How many actions do you need to block? Throw in a Tase of Vitae every 3 or 4 actions, and you can go forever. The Flack Jacket only prevents one damage. If I have a 5 point vampire with Attonement and a Flack Jacket, and you have six hundred weenie vampires who can't generate more than 1 stealth or do more than 1 damage? You never succeed in an action again. > Yes I agree that there are ways around it. However that doesnt mean it > doesn't require some attention. As I said before you shouldn't need to > alter a deck that works well to combat a very specific tactic. How many decks does the Henry Taylor wall work against? Really? Ones that: -Can't generate more than 1 stealth. -Can't deal with S:CE. -Can't intercept the Sport Bike. -Can't circumvent a single blocking minion. There are very few decks that can't do one of these things. And if they can't, it isn't necessarily a bad thing that such a narrow deck has a corresponding carrow trump. Lots of decks have trumps. At least if the specific trump to your deck is "Henry Taylor with a Sport Bike, a Protean skill card, and an Earth Meld", you really aren't that likely to run into it. > Its VERY different Peter because without Henry's ability the earth melds > will run out and so will the wakes/forced's etc. The difference is a minimal accademic one. Yeah, my prey could be playing a Henry Taylor wall. They also could be playing a Gangrel deck with 20 earth melds. Or a Lucian deck with 25 Obediances. The end result is the same--if I can't circumvent the one blocking minion, or the intercept that they can generate, I'm likely shut down. On the up side, *most* decks contain some way to circumvent such a problem (i.e. more than 1 stealth. Or a way to prevent the set up of such a teniouous blocking engine. Or a way to shut down a single problematic minion--heck, a thread just errupted recently about how *difficult* it is to run a deck that relies on a single blocking minion, as it is so easy to circumvent such a plan). If they don't, sometimes they get shut down. Heck, I currently have, in rotation, an Eternally Vigilant Cailean deck. If I sit next to a close range Rush deck? That deck is completely over. It will never succeed at doing anything. Ever. Does that mean the incredibly teniouous Cailean engine is too powerful? Hardly. > That puts it back into the > normal acceptable situation where you can only apply that response to combat > a defined number of times. I don't want to see earth meld given a cost, but > I would like to see Henry's ability given a little tweak to make it slightly > less effective. It is already a less effective as it needs to be. It is a good ability. However, that you can constantly cycle IG or Taste with it is *far* more significant than his ability to act as a never ending Earth meld wall. For cripes sake. +2 stealth will end the deck. As will Seduction. Or Elder Impersonation. Or Call of the Hungty Dead. Or Daring the Dawn. Or Kiss of Ra. Or Immortal Grapple. Or Thoughts Betrayed. Or intercepting the Sport Bike. Or Suddening the Protean skill card. Or Pentex Subversion. Or Sensory Deprivation. Or Rotshcreck (will he never take an action?). Or any number of other possibilities. I really think you are looking for a problem that isn't actually a problem. [ quoted text not captured ]

James Scott wrote: > We will have to disagree there Peter because I don't see getting a master > skill card as being a problem at all. How many are in the deck? Skill cards are often dead weight. And unless you have, like, 8, you are just as likely as not to draw one early. Relying on a skill card to make your deck go is what we in the industry like to call "too many moving parts". Sure, it works when it works, but it is far from a sure thing. And Sudden Reversal really isn't that unlikely of something to run into. And certainly due to this discussion, the next time someone sees a Henry Taylor about to get a Protean card while they have an SR in hand is gonna SR that skill card. > The sports bike was only used in that > situation. It could have been a KRCG or elder intervention or Tabloid or a > heap of other things which would obviously not be as effective but then not > every action is inherently at stealth. The intercept available to Henry Taylor is limited, at best. > > I agree that a deck with decent stealth would walk all over him in that > situation but there are lots of clans (Brujah, !Brujah, Toreador, !Toreador, > Giovanni, Tremere, Tzimisce etc etc) which cannot easily get stealth. Sure. But let's see: -Brujah/!Brujah. Immortal. Grapple. -Toreador/!Toreador. Screwed. But they are screwed by anyone with intercept. -Giovanni. ???? Call of the Hungry Dead. Seduction. -Tremere: Thoughts Betrayed. Seduction. Intercept him and Rotschreck. -Tzimisce: Intercept him. > > Before anyone says it I don't consider Alacrity or Stealth Ritus to be > acceptable ways of gaining stealth as the cost is far too high. :) I don't either. Lots of clans don't have access to reliable stealth. Yet somehow they manage to succeed when intercept exists. > > As I mentioned in the post below, most things have some inherent cost or > disadvantage. Yes a prey with 15 deflections is nasty but that costs 15 > blood and requires superior dominate or a hell of a lot of wakes. Yet still, the difference is academic. A Henry Taylor wall is an extreme trump to a small group of decks. There are extreme trumps to any number of small groups of decks. Conversely, there are many, many more common trumps to the Henry Taylor wall (IG; Seduction; Daring the Dawn; Kiss of Ra; Elder Impersonation; Pentex Subversion; Sensory Deprivation; Sudden Reversal; more than +1 stealth; intercepting him and playing Rotschreck which the Earth Meld doesn't save him from; etc). > > As previously mentioned, 99% of the time I wouldn't sudden a skill master as > unless its the only one in the deck it will happen sooner or later. Which is a mistake. As how many are in the deck? 3? 7? If you SR the first one, and it happens to be your *only* way to defend against this particular situaton, you are then safe to operate until they find another one. > I'd > rather save my SR(s) for things like Fame or Minion Taps etc. The same goes > for DI. Which is silly, if that single Protean skill card is going to shut down your deck. And what do you do if you sit next to a Gangrel deck that already *has* superior Protean? And none of this discussion even addresses one of the really important question of: -If this Henry Taylor deck is so optimized to reliably set up a Henry Taylor Earth Meld intercept wall, how is this deck winning? How is it keeping its prey from sweeping the other 3 VPs? [ quoted text not captured ]

James Scott wrote: > This is where the arguments all fall down. Not really seeing it. > > Using the above logic PTO is no more broken that Henry. (Before I continue I > will state that I DO agree with you Peter, PTO is badly broken). PTO, by itself, has an immense effect (burns a vampire). Henry Taylor, by himself, doesn't really do anything. Henry Taylor, with a Skill Card, a Sport Bike, and an Earth Meld is very helpful in a small number of situations (i.e. when in front of a deck that can't generate more than 1 stealth; can't deal with S:CE; can't circumvent a single minion with non stealth methods; can't neutralize a single minion; can't intercept that minion). But you have to get there first. And have to be sitting in the right spot. PTO? You need to influence out Arika. And play PTO. And maybe a stealth card. > > Worried about PTO, lots of easy solutions. Pack Delaying Tactics, lots of > reaction votes, use lots of titled vampires, DI the PTO or the vote mods, > rush the IC vamp before they can call, block x-table with eagle > sight/falcons eye/Anneke, drop a Fear of Mekhet on the IC etc. There are 10 times as many solutions to the Henry Taylor wall. And they aren't actually "solutions to the Henry Taylor wall" so much as "common deck strategies that are completely unconcerened with the percieved problem". And the Henry Taylor wall is 12 times as difficult to set up. > > Just because there are solutions doesn't mean it shouldn't require some > attention. The issue is not that there is a solution. The issue is that there are: -Many, many, many, incredibly common solutions. -The effort to set up a situation in the first place is considerable. -The number of decks that the solution is actually a problem for is very small. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija expounded: > Earth Meld is just fine. Yes. Majesty does the exact same thing and costs a > blood. Majesty also comes in the context of a discipline that lets you bleed > for up to 6 per action. Or lets you essentially automatically pass votes, > gain pool, and refill your vampires all in on action. Cards are context > dependant. This is true. However Majesty is extremely powerful -earth meld is even more powerful -easily comparable to Form of Mist. > You could claim that Flash is too powerful by the same logic--I mean Flash > at inferior lets you manuver *or* press (to continue *or* cancel) and at > superior, it gives you both! That is crazy! I mean, Apportation, at inferior > gives you *only* a press to continue and at superior gives you *only* a > manuver. That is clearly inferior. Flash should cost a blood! Oh, wait. That > isn't true at all. Apportation and flash are *both* free and neither is nearly as powerful as earth meld. > Yes. Earth Meld is powerful. But in the context of the rest of the > discipline (i.e. Protean), it is reasonable, what with the rest of the > discipline probably killing someone, or at the very least, S:CEing and then > continuing the action at +1 stealth. And in the context of the only clan/s > that comes with inherrent protean (Gangrel/!Gangrel), what is Earth Meld > really gonna do that is that big of a deal? Allow you to block a lot? They > could already do that with Wakes/Forceds/Cats/Dogs, and blocking a lot > doesn't make you win. Allow you to untap after getting blocked? They could > already do that with Freak Drive, and they don't need to be blocked in the > first place. > > Earth Meld is a strong card. But in context, it is a reasonably powerful > card. I disagree. I think it is overpowered (or undercosted). I also think Flesh of Marble is overpowered. Wakes/Forced have their own drawbacks and won't get you out of combat. Rats and dogs are only against bleeds and won't get you out of combat. Cats is after combat (sits in hand for the combat) and won't get you out of combat. Earth meld is much more powerful. Form of Mist is also very powerful but at least costs something.

In message <MPG.1ac7ffbe4...@news.eclipse.co.uk>, Timlagor <TimSl...@yaMhoo.co.uk> mumbled something about: >Peter D Bakija expounded: >> Earth Meld is just fine. Yes. Majesty does the exact same thing and costs a >> blood. Majesty also comes in the context of a discipline that lets you bleed >> for up to 6 per action. Or lets you essentially automatically pass votes, >> gain pool, and refill your vampires all in on action. Cards are context >> dependant. > >This is true. However Majesty is extremely powerful -earth meld is even >more powerful -easily comparable to Form of Mist. If you wanted to make a poor comparison, that is. Form of Mist is far past Earth Meld on the "effectiveness chart", because Form of Mist *directly* helps you win games. Earth Meld can only indirectly help you win games, by providing multiple actions or multiple blocking attempts; neither of these allow the initial action to succeed in the way Form of Mist does. I also consider Majesty to be a more effective "offensive" card than Earth Meld. Vampires with Presence have same-discipline access to bleed enhancers and vote push, both of which provide direct pool damage to your prey. Gideon Fontaine can beat you up all game by playing Legal Manipulations, getting blocked, playing Majesty, and then calling KRC with BO and Voter Cap, making the blood back and gaining pool. That's pretty darn good for a 3-cap. Vampires with Protean have neither of these in-discipline, limiting the direct utility of Earth Meld and making it more useful on the 'defensive' end of things... in such decks as the Henry Taylor deck, for example. The Henry Taylor combo won't make you win all by itself; you have to find a way to get your prey ousted, too. That means you have to split your deck in two, which automatically makes it have a number of weak points. (In the above example, Chandler Hungerford, for example, can... bleed for 2 with Computer Hacking, untap, and call a KRC that he can't pass? Ugh.) Above and beyond all this, even AFTER you get the combo set up you end up playing with a 5-card hand; you must have an Earth Meld in hand at all times, remember, so you have to be able to play something and draw the second. That is going to put a dent in your ability to move forward, no questions asked. I'm not worried about the Henry deck. >> Earth Meld is a strong card. But in context, it is a reasonably powerful >> card. > >I disagree. I think it is overpowered (or undercosted). I also think >Flesh of Marble is overpowered. Flesh of Marble has no bearing on this issue. Earth Meld is equally as powerful as Majesty -- one is better for defense, one is better for offense. Making Earth Meld cost a blood would turn it into wallpaper in comparison to Form of Mist. Form of Mist is clearly balanced right now with the 1-blood cost; therefore Earth Meld is balanced at free. -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

> Its VERY different Peter because without Henry's ability the earth melds > will run out and so will the wakes/forced's etc. That puts it back into the > normal acceptable situation where you can only apply that response to combat > a defined number of times. I don't want to see earth meld given a cost, but > I would like to see Henry's ability given a little tweak to make it slightly > less effective. Why? Henry is exactly the kind of vampire the already relatively weak combat decks need. Being able to recycle the card you need, is huge when playing combat and actually allows you to add defensive or offensive modules to a rush deck. His ability isn't overpowered in the slightest way. That said, I *do* believe as Earth Meld is *still* the only free S:CE card that ends combat at inferior. Furthermore, it's card text is identical to majesty's text and yet that one costs a blood. Makes no sense to me. This setup is pretty cornercase, but I might try building a PRO/POT deck with him and Earth Meld and equip him with Mr Winthrop and a Sport Bike. Might be fun.

Timlagor wrote: > This is true. However Majesty is extremely powerful -earth meld is even > more powerful -easily comparable to Form of Mist. Yes. Majesty is extremely powerful. Earth Meld is fairly powerful, but lacks the back up that Majesty has--the ability to bleed. Or pass votes. Or do pretty much anything useful. The only consistient grouping of disciplines that has access to Earth meld is Pro/Ani/For. With that combo, what is the Earth Meld really gonna do? Help you make a fantastic blocking wall? Sure--but that doesn't win games. The rest of your disciplines cards are made for combat--manuvers, presses, damage prevention, aggro damage, environmental damage. The one powerful bleed trick--Force of Will--goes hand in hand in the best combat avoidance in the game (Daring the Dawn). Given this context, what is Earth Meld really doing that is so powerful? Yes. There are some fringe combinations that make Earth Meld pretty strong--the Dom/Protean minions, for instance, but there aren't many of those and they are mostly expensive. The Henry Taylor wall is another example of a possible situation where Earth Meld is potent, but still, it is a very tenious set up and easily foiled. > Apportation and flash are *both* free and neither is nearly as powerful > as earth meld. Umm, clearly you missed the "comparative example" aspect of that comment. Majesty does the same thing as Earth Meld, but is more expensive. This doesn't mean that Earth Meld is too powerful (similar effect, higher cost). Flash does everything that Apportation does, but more (better effect, identical cost)--should Flash have a blood cost, 'cause Apportation is worse, yet costs the same? No, because of the context of Flash as opposed to the context of Apportation. Much like Earth Meld isn't too powerful when compared to Majesty--due to context. > I disagree. I think it is overpowered (or undercosted). I also think > Flesh of Marble is overpowered. Ok. I don't think you are correct. But that is me. > > Wakes/Forced have their own drawbacks and won't get you out of combat. > Rats and dogs are only against bleeds and won't get you out of combat. > Cats is after combat (sits in hand for the combat) and won't get you out > of combat. > Earth meld is much more powerful. Yes. It is. But it comes with an inherrent context, wherein the Earth Meld is not actually going to do all that much, compared to what else is available to those who can use arth Meld. > > Form of Mist is also very powerful but at least costs something. Yes, it is. But generally, the best Form of Mist is going to get you is a Computer Hacking bleed of 2. [ quoted text not captured ]

Izaak wrote: > That said, I *do* believe as Earth Meld is *still* the only free S:CE > card that ends combat at inferior. Furthermore, it's card text is > identical to majesty's text and yet that one costs a blood. Makes no > sense to me. Again. Context. Majesty comes with the ability to bleed for 6. If you get blocked, Majesty, untap, call KRC, push the vote through, refill your vampire, gain 2 pool. All with a single discipline. Earth Meld comes with the ability to torporize folks (which you aren't doing if you are playing Earth meld). And the ability to bleed for, umm, 2 with Computer Hacking. Majesty comes with offense. Majesty can help you win the game by, like, ousting your prey. Earth Meld is good for defense, by having a never untapped wall of defense. That doesn't make you win the game. It makes perfect sense. All the sense in the world, really. > > This setup is pretty cornercase, but I might try building a PRO/POT deck > with him and Earth Meld and equip him with Mr Winthrop and a Sport Bike. > Might be fun. Yes. I'm sure it is fun. And occasionally, it'll completely shut down your predator (much like if you have a 5 point vampire with Attonement and a Flak Jacket and your predator has a deck of weenie vampires with neither more than +1 stealth or increased hand damage--this strikes me as an incredibly similar situation to one that Henry Taylor wall shuts down, and the Attonement/Flak Jacket has never been an issue to anyone...) But overall, the Henry Taylor wall is corner case, at best. [ quoted text not captured ]

> >This is true. However Majesty is extremely powerful -earth meld is even > >more powerful -easily comparable to Form of Mist. > > If you wanted to make a poor comparison, that is. > > Form of Mist is far past Earth Meld on the "effectiveness chart", > because Form of Mist *directly* helps you win games. > > Earth Meld can only indirectly help you win games, by providing multiple > actions or multiple blocking attempts; neither of these allow the > initial action to succeed in the way Form of Mist does. A free S:CE and untap is not stronger than Majesty even considering its context? I may add, that the aforementioned Gangrel that naturally have pro available ALSO have access to Freak Drive, the Homonculus and Animalism, which also provides them with plenty of uptap options. Protean is an incredible strong and versatile discipline that only lacks bleeding power and intercept. I also find that S:CE is a 99% defensive strike almost exclusively used in decks that don't want to fight. Being able to avoid combat AND keep your blockers ready FOR FREE is a bit over the top if you ask me. Note that S:CE and action continues, which is ALSO available in protean is a whole different ballgame in the two cards shouldn't be compared; like you also said. However, the latter can also be used as a defensive card, which is why it makes no sense to me that Pro would need a free S:CE and untap card. It has never caused me to lose games and neither would I call it overpowered. It *is* pretty odd, however, as both Presence SCE cards that allowed you to end combat at inferior were given a cost. Earth Meld is no different card in that context. > I also consider Majesty to be a more effective "offensive" card than > Earth Meld. Vampires with Presence have same-discipline access to bleed > enhancers and vote push, both of which provide direct pool damage to > your prey. Gideon Fontaine can beat you up all game by playing Legal > Manipulations, getting blocked, playing Majesty, and then calling KRC > with BO and Voter Cap, making the blood back and gaining pool. That's > pretty darn good for a 3-cap. Looks cute on paper, but the days that this worked are really over. Sure, I might have pulled this of a few years ago, but between all the permacept, cardbased intercept and combat, I doubt mr Fontaine will last long. It might be a cool first/second turn thing, but it does require the perfect hand. No stealth presence vote/bleed hasn't gotten me an awful lot of VP's lately. > Vampires with Protean have neither of these in-discipline, limiting the > direct utility of Earth Meld and making it more useful on the > 'defensive' end of things... in such decks as the Henry Taylor deck, for > example. The Henry Taylor combo won't make you win all by itself; you > have to find a way to get your prey ousted, too. That means you have to > split your deck in two, which automatically makes it have a number of > weak points. (In the above example, Chandler Hungerford, for example, > can... bleed for 2 with Computer Hacking, untap, and call a KRC that he > can't pass? Ugh.) That's a silly comparison. Protean is an entirely different discipline than presence in that respect. Protean has its strength in incredible versatility and dangerous combat. First round aggravated damage for one blood that can be played anywhere during a round is nothing to sneeze at. Getting into combat with Fontaine is nothing scary. Heck, you expect him to majesty and do something else. Blocking Chandler might have painful consequences. > Above and beyond all this, even AFTER you get the combo set up you end > up playing with a 5-card hand; you must have an Earth Meld in hand at > all times, remember, so you have to be able to play something and draw > the second. That is going to put a dent in your ability to move > forward, no questions asked. I'm not worried about the Henry deck. Neither am I. The setup has too many moving parts, but I'm gonna give it a shot nonetheless. It probably shuts down that annoying light stealth/weenie bleeder in my playgroup. > >> Earth Meld is a strong card. But in context, it is a reasonably powerful > >> card. > > > >I disagree. I think it is overpowered (or undercosted). I also think > >Flesh of Marble is overpowered. Not overpowered, but very strong, yes. > Flesh of Marble has no bearing on this issue. > > Earth Meld is equally as powerful as Majesty -- one is better for > defense, one is better for offense. Making Earth Meld cost a blood > would turn it into wallpaper in comparison to Form of Mist. How you would use Majesty offensively is beyond me. If untapping after ending combat is offensive then Pro/Pre would, according to your logic suddenly make Earth Meld an offensive card, which it is obviously not. Untapping after an action is a very strong effect, but calling it offensive is bull IMO. Poor argument here. > Form of Mist is clearly balanced right now with the 1-blood cost; > therefore Earth Meld is balanced at free. You think so? I think Form of Mist is still too strong even WITH the blood cost, simply because it adds stealth after ending combat. While the other SCE and action continues cards can be worked around by using wakes, that's not gonna work with Form of Ghost unless you can generate more intercept. Also, the fact that Form of Ghost does not exclude bleeding actions makes it even stronger. It is for a reason, probably that pre/PRO starts at cap 7 (with only 5 vamps in the crypt) and PRO/dom at cap 6. I think 2 blood would be reasonable for that particular card, but looking at the blood-intensive context of protean as a whole, I suppose it's balanced. Still then, it gets pretty ridiculous if you take these two cards (Earth Meld and Form of Ghost) out of the protean/gangrel context, which was the whole point.

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: > > Cailean with Eternal Vigilance, a Raven Spy, and The Rack. And he'll > probably kill you better, too. Cailean has still to use cards/blood but Henry's 2xEarth Meld last forever. Of course, if C. has EV, Mark V and a few tastes and you are his predator w/o stealth/block denial/ranged combat, I guess it does not matter if the loop is eternal or not... > > And what the hell is Henry going to do if you, like, Immortally Grapple him? Rip your head off ;) After all, you do not need to dedicate all of your deck to blocking. -Antero

Izaak wrote: > A free S:CE and untap is not stronger than Majesty even considering its > context? No. It isn't. 'Cause it isn't going to make you win. Majesty comes with "bleed for 6" and "push a vote through to damage your prey, fill up your vampire, and gain 2 pool". Earth Meld comes with "make a good intercept wall, if you also have intercept" or "bleed for 2 if you areusing Computer Hacking". Really. Compare what Gideon Fontaine (3 PRE) can do, by himself, with what Chandler Hungerford (3 PRO) can do by himself. > I may add, that the aforementioned Gangrel that naturally have pro > available ALSO have access to Freak Drive, the Homonculus and Animalism, > which also provides them with plenty of uptap options. Which only supports my point. The Gangrel have access to *tons* of untap in clan--Freak Drive, Force of Will, Homunculus, Movement of the Slow Body, Cats/Rats/Dogs. Given that the Gangrel can untap at a moments notice in any instance, how is Earth Meld that big of a deal? > Protean is an > incredible strong and versatile discipline that only lacks bleeding > power and intercept. Exactly. Majesty costs a blood specifically cause it comes with bleeding power. Earth Meld is really good with intercept, sure, but you *need another discipline* to get that intercept. Protean doesn't give you what you need to make Earth Meld good. And even then, it isn't that good. Presence comes with everything you need built right in. And everything that Protean *is* good at (combat) is *completely* countered by using Earth Meld. > I also find that S:CE is a 99% defensive strike almost exclusively used > in decks that don't want to fight. Being able to avoid combat AND keep > your blockers ready FOR FREE is a bit over the top if you ask me. But it isn't. 'Cause keeping your blockers ready FOR FREE doesn't make you win games. It makes your prey win games. > However, the latter can also be used as a defensive card, which is why > it makes no sense to me that Pro would need a free S:CE and untap card. > It has never caused me to lose games and neither would I call it > overpowered. It *is* pretty odd, however, as both Presence SCE cards > that allowed you to end combat at inferior were given a cost. Earth Meld > is no different card in that context. But it is completely different in the context of what Protean can do (or the Gangrel as a whole can do) as opposed to what Presence, even in and of itself, can do. To repeat: Presence can: Bleed for 6. Push votes through while filling vampires and gaining pool. Protean can: Semi successfully beat folks up (see: S:CE vs Protean), which is completely nullified if you areusing Earth Meld. > Looks cute on paper, but the days that this worked are really over. > Sure, I might have pulled this of a few years ago, but between all the > permacept, cardbased intercept and combat, I doubt mr Fontaine will last > long. It might be a cool first/second turn thing, but it does require > the perfect hand. > No stealth presence vote/bleed hasn't gotten me an awful lot of VP's > lately. And how many VPs has Protean got you? How often do Earth Meld heavy intercept decks win games? Rarely, at best. The card tha makes Protean a viable discipline, in terms of wining games, really, is Form of Mist. And I think we all agree that Form of Mist, with a cost of 1 blood, is reasonably balanced. Earth Meld, even without a cost, does less for you than Form of Mist. > That's a silly comparison. Protean is an entirely different discipline > than presence in that respect. Yes. Presence is useful, in terms of winning games. Protean is useful, in terms of halping other disciplines do things. >Protean has its strength in incredible > versatility and dangerous combat. Which isn't an issue if you areplaying Earth Meld. So Earth Meld is really good at making pretty much every other card in the Protean Arsenal useless. > First round aggravated damage for one > blood that can be played anywhere during a round is nothing to sneeze > at. No, it isn't, but it also doesn't win games. Especially when you are playing Earth Meld. > Getting into combat with Fontaine is nothing scary. Heck, you expect > him to majesty and do something else. Blocking Chandler might have > painful consequences. Might. But what is Chandler doing in the first place that you want to block? Bleeding for 2? Calling a vote he can't pass? > Neither am I. The setup has too many moving parts, but I'm gonna give it > a shot nonetheless. > It probably shuts down that annoying light stealth/weenie bleeder in my > playgroup. Sure--which is good. The Henry Taylor wall is, at best, a clever trump to a small number of reasonably good decks. > How you would use Majesty offensively is beyond me. If untapping after > ending combat is offensive then Pro/Pre would, according to your logic > suddenly make Earth Meld an offensive card, which it is obviously not. Pro/Pre does make Earth Meld an offensive card. If you have reliable access to PRO in a presence based deck, you use Earth Meld instead of Majesty. But then you'd probably be using Form of Mist instead of either. This being said, there are few vampires who start with PRO, pre, let alone pro, pre. It is a hard deck to build. A good one when you can pull it off, but difficult. > Untapping after an action is a very strong effect, but calling it > offensive is bull IMO. > Poor argument here. You go to do something. It is blocked. You Majesty and untap. You go do something else. I fail to see where the question even is. Heck--a straight forward Presnece based vote push deck with a handfull of Aire of Elation suddenly becomes incredibly offensive with Majesty untap. > You think so? I think Form of Mist is still too strong even WITH the > blood cost, simply because it adds stealth after ending combat. Again, context. What is Form of Mist really helping you do? Usually, bleed for 2 with Computer Hacking. Sure, you can team up PRO with dom for good bleeds, but then you are working with a small pool of expensive vampires. > It is for a reason, probably that pre/PRO starts at cap 7 (with only 5 > vamps in the crypt) and PRO/dom at cap 6. I think 2 blood would be > reasonable for that particular card, but looking at the blood-intensive > context of protean as a whole, I suppose it's balanced. Form of Mist at 1 blood put a *huge* dent in the most effective protean deck strategy that there was--weenie Computer Hacking FoM bleed--such that those decks are just barely competetive at this point. > Still then, it gets pretty ridiculous if you take these two cards (Earth > Meld and Form of Ghost) out of the protean/gangrel context, which was > the whole point. Not rediculous at all. 'Cause it is difficult to take them out of that context. Sure, there are some strong PRO/dom decks out there that use Form of Mist and Earth Meld to good effect. But they are hardly the scourge of the competetive scene. And there are good intercept wall decks that use Earth Meld to protect Smiling Jack that occasionally win games too. But again, hardly over the top. I'll be impressed if a Henry Taylor wall deck, for instance, can win games regularly, let alone win tournaments regularly. [ quoted text not captured ]

AL wrote: > Cailean has still to use cards/blood but Henry's 2xEarth Meld last > forever. Of course, if C. has EV, Mark V and a few tastes and you are > his predator w/o stealth/block denial/ranged combat, I guess it does > not matter if the loop is eternal or not... It is as eternal as it needs to be. How many actions a turn is Cailean really going to have to block? 3? 4? > Rip your head off ;) After all, you do not need to dedicate all of > your deck to blocking. Yu-huh. A deck with Henry that has enough Protean skill cards so that he reliably has one, enough Earth Melds that he has one in hand, enough Sports Bikes and KRCGs so that he can block actions, and then enough combat to hurt you when he gets IGed, and then enough other useful stuff to be able to even have a chance of winning a game? Right. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija expounded: > Majesty comes with offense. Majesty can help you win the game by, like, > ousting your prey. Earth Meld is good for defense, by having a never > untapped wall of defense. That doesn't make you win the game. So why do people keep saying "the guy with no preadator is the one that wins"?

Timlagor wrote: > So why do people keep saying "the guy with no preadator is the one that > wins"? 'Cause having no predator means you win the game. Which is exactly what I was describing. To quote what I said: > Majesty comes with offense. Majesty can help you win the game by, like, > ousting your prey. Earth Meld is good for defense, by having a never > untapped wall of defense. That doesn't make you win the game. Earth Meld is good for defense. Earth Meld gives you a never untapped wall of defense. Having a never untapped wall of defense doesn't make you win. It makes your prey win. Intercept walls, generally speaking, don't win games. They get 2 VPs--one for ousting the last other guy, and one for being the last man standing. In a 4 player game, that might make you win (if the other two guys each get 1 VP) but ismore likely to tie the game. In a 5 player game, 2 VPs is likely to make you not win--it ispossible to win with 2 VPs in a 5 player game, but unlikely. Thus, by playing an intercept wall deck, generally speaking, you are unlikely to win games. Right. What Earth Meld is best for are Intercept Wall decks. Now go back and look at where I wrote "Earth Meld is good for defense, by having a never untapped wall of defense. That doesn't make you win the game." By having an Earth Meld heavy, Intercept Wall deck (the deck type that can best utilize Earth Meld; see: Henry Taylor Wall), you are being the predator of the guy with no predator. Being the predator of the guy with no predator (i.e. being an intercept wall deck) just makes your prey win. Does this all make sense now? [ quoted text not captured ]

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 10:33:19 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >James Scott wrote: > >> As regards to Henry being on a PTO level of brokenness I think that would be >> a fair comparison as far as game effect goes. > >??????? Uh yeah. Henry with a Sports Bike foils +1 stealth actions. What about when you get to +2 stealth? He's screwed. >very easy to foil the set up of (Sudden the skill card, intercept the equip >action, DI the Sports Bike) and then easy to shut down when it does get I was about to ask why everyone forgets about Shattering Blow, but then I remebered, oh yeah, S:CE. But still. Shattering Blow and Fractured Armament are okay cards. :) >operational (kill Henry with anti S:CE combat; Pentex or something similar >him; play with stealth). > >Not even a close to fair comparison. Agreed. Henry may shut down a few decks. Henry doesn't burn vampires with this setup, nor does he render a large number of decks mostly useless. A few, maybe. Xian mostly useless

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 23:16:07 +0100, "Izaak" <i.hav...@SPAMklg.nl> wrote: >However, the latter can also be used as a defensive card, which is why >it makes no sense to me that Pro would need a free S:CE and untap card. >It has never caused me to lose games and neither would I call it >overpowered. It *is* pretty odd, however, as both Presence SCE cards >that allowed you to end combat at inferior were given a cost. Earth Meld >is no different card in that context. Presence bleeds and votes. Protean doesn't. >That's a silly comparison. Protean is an entirely different discipline >than presence in that respect. Protean has its strength in incredible >versatility and dangerous combat. First round aggravated damage for one Which is why Earth Meld doesn't cost 1 blood. It is an entirely different discipline with a different focus. >How you would use Majesty offensively is beyond me. If untapping after >ending combat is offensive then Pro/Pre would, according to your logic >suddenly make Earth Meld an offensive card, which it is obviously not. >Untapping after an action is a very strong effect, but calling it >offensive is bull IMO. >Poor argument here. Bleed for more than 1. Majesty/untap. Vote with a good chance of success. Or vice versa. Protean just doesn't do that. Xian

"James Scott" <tem...@internode.on.net> wrote in message news:405d...@duster.adelaide.on.net... [snip] > Yes I had grapple's. I could have dealt with it earlier in the game most > probably. Elder impersonation has also been suggested by a playgroup friend > so I'll try the deck with it in. > > The game situation was that I had 6 vamps on the table with half to full > blood, he had Henry on 2 blood and 4 pool. I probably had about 12 cards > left total including a whole KRC/Bewitch/Iron Glare/Vote cap ready to go but > because of Henry it was impossible to even attempt calling it. Henry trumped you because of the situation, not because of your deck composition. And with some clever card management, you might have had an answer for him in your library. You could always attempt to call the vote; it just gets blocked. One possible scenario: 1. Bleed, playing the Iron Glare immediately. You have a new card in your hand. He blocks, dances. 2. Call the vote anyway. You have a new card in your hand. He blocks, dances. 3. Discard Bewitching Oration. You have a new card in your hand. He starts his turn, you have 3 new cards which may or may not have helped you spread his face across the pavement. > The deck has done surprisingly well and has taken a minimum of 3 VPS in each > game except one. If anyone wants me to post it I will. You should! You could also send it to the !Brujah Newsletter writer, who might consider using it. > As regards to Henry being on a PTO level of brokenness I think that would be > a fair comparison as far as game effect goes. I'm not giving any thoughts > about how PTO should be changed etc but when compared to other vampires > abilities Henry's has no cost, no downside and can be used X times a turn > where X is how many combats he is in. A simple fix I think would be to make > it only applicable to combats which result from actions he initiates OR make > it have some cost (not necessarily a blood cost). Other people are taking issue with this. I understand what you're trying to convey; I see no need to dogpile you. > The opponent who was using Henry knows exactly what he is doing and would > not commit to an action with him unless he had a wake :) Clever opponent. Sounded like an entertaining game. Tension, Hesitation, Outthinking Your Opponent. Not Boring. > I am definitely including either Elder Interventions or some generic > intercept like a KRCG or two. If you think they're needed. Vendetta might also be a crazy good card. > Yes I believe it would have made a big difference if they had been embrace > weenies with .44 Magnums or anything else I can think of because I could > have done damage. So you had manuevers, strikes. You could cycle those as well against Henry, hoping for something better. > Basically it was the fact that there was nothing I could do that got me so annoyed. I've been there. It suxxors. Just gotta see past the red in your eyes and let calm blue logic come back. Or flip over the table. > Not being able to do any actions with six minions is very disturbing lol That's where I have to disagree with you. You could take actions; whether or not they succeed is a different story, whether or not your hand changes for the better is a chance we all take. You didn't have six Pentex Subversions on you, right? ; ) > Thanks for everyone's replies. de nada -mikeooio

"Izaak" <i.hav...@SPAMklg.nl> wrote in message news:c3l42j$69q$1...@reader13.wxs.nl... [snip] > You think so? I think Form of Mist is still too strong even WITH the > blood cost, simply because it adds stealth after ending combat. It's also regulated to once per action, period. >While the other SCE and action continues cards can be worked around by using > wakes, that's not gonna work with Form of Ghost unless you can generate > more intercept. Umm... (I'm just gonna pretend that you actually meant to say "Form of the Ghost" ; )) >Also, the fact that Form of Ghost does not exclude bleeding actions makes it even stronger. You're right on this one. I would never include a manuever (or press at superior) that could only be used during bleeds. > It is for a reason, probably that pre/PRO starts at cap 7 (with only 5 > vamps in the crypt) and PRO/dom at cap 6. I think 2 blood would be > reasonable for that particular card, but looking at the blood-intensive > context of protean as a whole, I suppose it's balanced. 2 blood for a manuever? Are you insane? Why not turn all protean vampires into Rex? > Still then, it gets pretty ridiculous if you take these two cards (Earth > Meld and Form of Ghost) out of the protean/gangrel context, which was > the whole point. Form of Ghost is inferior compared to Flash. There. I said it. -mikeooi

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: How many actions a turn is Cailean > really going to have to block? 3? 4? Arrggh. 'was about to answer that some decktypes can make 8+ minions quite quickly, but then I realised that I'm trying to make _some_ argument that would be valid. I guess that I begin to realise how the discussions grow from neutral to heated to flaming... > > > Rip your head off ;) After all, you do not need to dedicate all of > > your deck to blocking. > > Yu-huh. A deck with Henry that has enough Protean skill cards so that he > reliably has one, enough Earth Melds that he has one in hand, enough Sports > Bikes and KRCGs so that he can block actions, and then enough combat to hurt > you when he gets IGed, and then enough other useful stuff to be able to even > have a chance of winning a game? > > Right. > But on this, I have to answer. Sure, right. This was after all Henry's ability: he should be able to cycle combat cards in order to be both effective combatant and later keep Earth Melding. (I have to try to make a Henry deck to see if it works.) But well, reading this thread, maybe it's all the better. The !Brujah rarely, if ever, win tournaments, and, I guess that preparing to Henry's loop is not worse than preparing to Arika/PTO... -Antero

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:BC83404B.14ACC%pd...@lightlink.com... [ quoted text not captured ] <snip sig> All fair points Peter. Hehe unfortunately it wasn't a Henry Taylor focused deck. It was an Ag Poke deck. As I said I'm not really focusing on that particular situation rather that Henry could be used very successfully in a number of situations to deny a large number of actions for no cost. Natch, you got me..I forgot about block denial :) James

"AL" <nom...@jippii.fi> wrote in message news:ea6a080a.04032...@posting.google.com... [ quoted text not captured ] I would agree with you if it was a !Brujah deck. Even a Henry Taylor deck would be fine. However it was a Gangrel Ag Poke deck with a side seasoning of Henry to taste :) James.

"Unique Master" <sh...@removethistexas.net> wrote in message news:405e8047$0$3043$61fe...@news.rcn.com... [ quoted text not captured ] Oooooh Vendetta *puts some in deck* Next time the !Brujah have an outing I'm definitely taking a Waste Management Operation or two. Cheers James

On Sun, 21 Mar 2004 12:51:23 -0500, Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote: >> I agree that a deck with decent stealth would walk all over him in that >> situation but there are lots of clans (Brujah, !Brujah, Toreador, !Toreador, >> Giovanni, Tremere, Tzimisce etc etc) which cannot easily get stealth. > >Sure. But let's see: > >-Brujah/!Brujah. Immortal. Grapple. >-Toreador/!Toreador. Screwed. But they are screwed by anyone with intercept. How about Psyche! ? For every Psyche! you got, he needs another Earth Meld to keep the trick going! Intercept isn't THAT unusual for a Clan with Auspex, either :P -- Holger Christiansen Domain of Bochum, Germany

"Holger Christiansen" <silve...@arcor.de> wrote in message news:53et501hbbh447c98...@4ax.com... [ quoted text not captured ] <snip> Duh...me so smart lol Ok i retract the Tremere :P Sheepishly James

LSJ <vte...@white-wolf.com> wrote in message news:<405C3920...@white-wolf.com>... > Jon Stahler wrote: > > Its a combat card he played during combat. Same with Zip Gun if > > its somehow burned prior to the end of the combat in which the card was > > played (dragons breath rounds, canine horde, etc <snip>. > > Correct. There is an error in this example, right? I mean "Same with Zip Gun if > > its somehow burned prior to the end of the combat in which the card was > > played (dragons breath rounds" is wrong, he cannot burn the zip gun with the DBR, right? Dragos

> How you would use Majesty offensively is beyond me. If untapping after > ending combat is offensive then Pro/Pre would, according to your logic > suddenly make Earth Meld an offensive card, which it is obviously not. > Untapping after an action is a very strong effect, but calling it > offensive is bull IMO. > Poor argument here. hmm, have you never seen a full on Tor deck push actions through? i mean, yeah, they don't have stealth, which hurts, but a full on Tor deck can use that majesty like nobody's business offensively (and they aren't the only ones too). aching beauty/s, cam exemplary, and majesty sets up a horrific offense. what happens is [they do something nasty with votes or bleed] you either take it, which is fine by them, or you *try* to stop it, you lose blood, they majesty, untap and do something just as bad, but this time different. and now you have 1 more tapped blocker, who has less blood on it. what are you gonna do? try to block the next action? sure, go ahead. tap another blocker, lose more blood - or waste an untap and lose more blood. whatever, doesn't bother them, they didn't lose blood, and they probably crippled a blocker, and may have tapped two. cool. they have the rest of their minions to keep pressing the advantage. yes, yes you can really use majesty with the complement of pre for some serious offensive action. but maybe you've never seen it? i, and it seems like many others, have. and we came out from that experience learning that majesty can definitely be used as an offensive card.

[ quoted text not captured ] First of, don't assume things. I *know* how Majesty and Toreador work. I also *know* you can Legal/get blocked/majesty/call a vote and cap it. I also know it hardly ever actually works that way; it simply assumes too perfect a hand. I realize this is awfully strong with PRE weenies, but the question is, whether that's because of majesty or because of the weenies. From your perspective, and I know I'm pushing it here, Earth Meld can be used in the same way - kinda. I rush your Famed minion, intending to torporize it. You, being a good player, block that action and have your other minion torporized instead (assuming you lack proper defense at this point), avoiding a three pool loss. I have two options, of which Form of Mist is probably the better, but I can also play Earth Meld and do something else (like, try again, or play an army of rats), or just computer hack you. You're all drooling over Legal Manipulations now, which is "only" at +2 and costs a blood, while computer hacking is free and is +1, working out relatively the same way; more or less. Computer Hacking is a great card, actually. Of course Legal Manip also gains pool at superior, but that's why it requires PRE instead of nothing at all. Note that I also said that within the protean/gangrel context both cards are probably fine, but once you take 'em out of that context, FoM and Earth Meld are a tad but too strong. Plenty of cards are just that, though; a tad bit too strong.

James Scott wrote: > All fair points Peter. Thanks :-) > > Hehe unfortunately it wasn't a Henry Taylor focused deck. It was an Ag Poke > deck. > As I said I'm not really focusing on that particular situation rather that > Henry could be used very successfully in a number of situations to deny a > large number of actions for no cost. He certainly can. I'm not saying that the Henry Taylor wall isn't a good deal--it certainly is. This being said, it isn't necessarily a better deal than a lot of other trick/trump decks. Yeah, Henry's never ending Earth meld blocking will completely shut down a number of decks, but I maintain that it isn't that big of a number of decks--mostly ones that can't generate significant stealth stealth, don't have anti-S:CE combat abilities, can't deny blocking all together, and can't prevent the set up of the wall. There are plenty of similar situations out there already, and they are all still pretty minor, overall. To go back to the Attonement example--back in the day, the weenie presence bleed deck was a total horror--lots of 1, 2, and 3 point minions with presence. They'd just bleed alot. If blocked, they'd play Majesty and untap (Majesty was free back then) and do something else. This (and many simialr decks--weenie dom, Caitiff Computer Hacking, whatever) was a common, very effective, tournament winning deck type. But if their prey had a single minion with Attonement and a Flak Jacket, they were completely shut down. That single minion would block every action they took. Forever. And never take damage. And never tap. It was a total trump. But overall, not a big deal. Much like Eternally Vigilant Cailean is a total trump to a close range combat deck. Absolute deck shut down happens some times. Not often, but occasionally. If someone is playing a deck that can't generate significant stealth, doesn't have anti-S:CE combat abilities, can't deny blocking all together, and can't prevent the set up of the wall, they need to accept that occasionally, they'll be trumped by something like a Henry Taylor wall--which is ok, as the deck is either very good (otherwise, why play a deck with so many significant holes?) and can use a trump, or it is just a bad deck that isn't winning much in any case. Take it easy, [ quoted text not captured ]

James Scott wrote: > However it was a Gangrel Ag Poke deck with a side seasoning of Henry to > taste Out of curiosity, from what I recall, the Henry deck didn't win. Does it often win? [ quoted text not captured ]

Izaak wrote: > From your perspective, and I know I'm pushing it here, Earth Meld can be > used in the same way - kinda. It is a very big "kinda" here. > I rush your Famed minion, intending to torporize it. You, being a good > player, block that action and have your other minion torporized instead > (assuming you lack proper defense at this point), Or, ya know, play my own S:CE that the Gangrel can't really get around so well. > avoiding a three pool > loss. I have two options, of which Form of Mist is probably the better, > but I can also play Earth Meld and do something else (like, try again, > or play an army of rats), or just computer hack you. Neither of which is that big of a threat. The Gangrel are notoriously bad at Rush combat, as they can't deal with S:CE in any reasonable way (they have Dog Pack, which costs 2 pool, can be blocked, can be stolen, can be killed, and takes an action to recruit). The Gangrel can't bleed for much, such that blocking them is that much of a necessity. If Protean gave you an abilitiy like "+2 bleed", then it would make sense that Earth Meld costs a blood. But protean doesn't do that. > You're all drooling > over Legal Manipulations now, which is "only" at +2 and costs a blood, > while computer hacking is free and is +1, working out relatively the > same way; more or less. Umm, yeah. Computer Hacking bleed = Bleed for 2. Presence bleed = Bleed for 6 (Legal and Aire with a Toreador). *Big* difference. [ quoted text not captured ]

> > From your perspective, and I know I'm pushing it here, Earth Meld can be > > used in the same way - kinda. > > It is a very big "kinda" here. That's why I said I was pushing it. > > I rush your Famed minion, intending to torporize it. You, being a good > > player, block that action and have your other minion torporized instead > > (assuming you lack proper defense at this point), Hold up one sec. If you can play your own SCE card, then I get to play a Wake in your majesty example and beat the living crap out of Gideon anyway. Or can he play another majesty? I realize the 20 majesty legal manipulations decks exist, but seriously, how many Majestie *do* you pack in your average vote/bleeder? > Neither of which is that big of a threat. The Gangrel are notoriously bad at > Rush combat, as they can't deal with S:CE in any reasonable way (they have > Dog Pack, which costs 2 pool, can be blocked, can be stolen, can be killed, > and takes an action to recruit). The Gangrel can't bleed for much, such that > blocking them is that much of a necessity. Army of rats can be pretty annoying, especially with Earth Meld around. I'm not saying that protean can do what presence can, far from it. It's two different disciplines for a reason. It's just that it's not as if Protean can't do anything at all.... Like I said a couple of times before, in a Gangrel deck, where protean comes naturally, it's no issue at all. I'd argue the gangrel as a whole are probably underpowered due to inability to bleed (aside from Force of Will) and lack of a way around SCE. We are, however, discussing protean is general, in which case both Earth Meld and Form of Mist are IMO slightly undercosted. Lack of protean on cheap vampires or ones with one of the "power" disciplines is the reason these two cards are fine, but that's quite an instable way to balance things out. Currently tooling dom/pre vampires with protean has simply too many moving parts, and I surely hope it stays that way. If not, it'd be '98 all over again with people Legalling with impunity and ending combat and untap for free. Actually, it'd be worse, since Majesty's untap effect has never been free (used to be "and this vampire may burn one blood to untap") as you suggested in an earlier post. > If Protean gave you an abilitiy like "+2 bleed", then it would make sense > that Earth Meld costs a blood. But protean doesn't do that. Thank god. It gives stealth, first round aggravated, nigh-immunity to combat damage, SCE in two forms, uber-maneuvers and presses. Seems quite enough to me. We don't want another Visscicitude or Obtenebration, right :-p > > You're all drooling > > over Legal Manipulations now, which is "only" at +2 and costs a blood, > > while computer hacking is free and is +1, working out relatively the > > same way; more or less. > > Umm, yeah. > > Computer Hacking bleed = Bleed for 2. > > Presence bleed = Bleed for 6 (Legal and Aire with a Toreador). Putting your Mariana Gilbert (if you even have a copy - I don't...) at one blood and "useless" for the rest of the game. Unless of course your prey has an incompetent deck and can't deal with a one-blood PRE/cel vampire. Note that I *do* realize that Majesty is, within its own context a "better" card than Earth Meld. It's just that Protean is not incapable of doing anything at all. IME, Gangrel are pretty good at weenie voting thanks to cards like Flesh of Marble, Earth Meld and Form of Mist, backed up with some a very nice stealth card. Besides, not every vampire with superior presence is Toreador (only 20 of the 42 toreador have PRE and 7 of them have no presence at all) and Aire of Elation is quite costly for a non-Tor to play. Especially with small midcaps assuming you want to play your majesties. Constantly paying blood for your cards gets problematic quite fast if you don't have a way to gain blood back fast, but I suppose you could feed 'em with dolls and regain pool with legal manip and social charm. Fair enough. > *Big* difference. Yup. So your conclusion is that because presence is a better bleed skill , Majesty is plain better than Earth Meld... Or, rather, is the reason that Earth Meld is free while it does the same. Makes no sense to me...

Izaak wrote: > Hold up one sec. If you can play your own SCE card, then I get to play a > Wake in your majesty example and beat the living crap out of Gideon > anyway. I was simply making a point about Protean and its ability to kill things. The Gangrel make crappy Rush decks, as they can't deal with S:CE. Protean is good for S:CE, some stealth, and sketchy combat. Presence is good for ousting your prey. Consequently, Majesty gets a blood cost of 1. Earth Meld gets to be free. > Army of rats can be pretty annoying, especially with Earth Meld around. > I'm not saying that protean can do what presence can, far from it. It's > two different disciplines for a reason. It's just that it's not as if > Protean can't do anything at all.... Like I said a couple of times > before, in a Gangrel deck, where protean comes naturally, it's no issue > at all. I'd argue the gangrel as a whole are probably underpowered due > to inability to bleed (aside from Force of Will) and lack of a way > around SCE. Correct. Such that Earth Meld isn't such a big deal, in the context that it lives in. > > We are, however, discussing protean is general, in which case both Earth > Meld and Form of Mist are IMO slightly undercosted. Lack of protean on > cheap vampires or ones with one of the "power" disciplines is the reason > these two cards are fine, but that's quite an instable way to balance > things out. They are only slightly undercosted out of context. If they could be played, willy-nilly by any vampire, I'd agree with you. But they can't be. They can mostly be played by vampires who can't really capitalize upon the power they provide. Or if they can capitalize upon the power, they are expensive and few and far between. > Currently tooling dom/pre vampires with protean has simply too many > moving parts, and I surely hope it stays that way. If not, it'd be '98 > all over again with people Legalling with impunity and ending combat and > untap for free. Actually, it'd be worse, since Majesty's untap effect > has never been free (used to be "and this vampire may burn one blood to > untap") as you suggested in an earlier post. Well, ya know, the inferior part was free. > Thank god. It gives stealth, first round aggravated, nigh-immunity to > combat damage, SCE in two forms, uber-maneuvers and presses. Seems quite > enough to me. We don't want another Visscicitude or Obtenebration, right > :-p Viscisitude is very powerful. But much like the Gangrel, the Tzimisce aren't real good at ousting folks (yeah, yeah, I know--they can bleed for 3 per action...) Obtenebration is kinda fringe, and to really get a lot of mileage out of it, you need it at superior. Meaning bigm expensive vampires. And there are very few out of clan vampires with either. > Putting your Mariana Gilbert (if you even have a copy - I don't...) at > one blood and "useless" for the rest of the game. Unless of course your > prey has an incompetent deck and can't deal with a one-blood PRE/cel > vampire. Note that I *do* realize that Majesty is, within its own > context a "better" card than Earth Meld. It's just that Protean is not > incapable of doing anything at all. IME, Gangrel are pretty good at > weenie voting thanks to cards like Flesh of Marble, Earth Meld and Form > of Mist, backed up with some a very nice stealth card. But they can't pass the votes. They don't have presence. And few princes. I'm not saying that protean is useless. It isn't. It is a fine discipline. But given the context of the card, it is in no way unreasonable that Earth Meld is free. > So your conclusion is that because presence is a better bleed skill , > Majesty is plain better than Earth Meld... Or, rather, is the reason > that Earth Meld is free while it does the same. Makes no sense to me... No, my conclusion is that because Presence is both better at actually ousting folks and a primarily non combat discipline, and 'cause the effect that Earth Meld provides is already cheap and plentiful for the one clan that comes with Protean, it makes perfect sense that Earth Meld is free while Majesty costs a blood. Again, go back and look at Flash and compare it to any number of other manuver/press cards. Flash is simply better than, say, Gleam of Red Eyes or Apportation. Yet Flash still costs the same as Gleam of Red Eyes or Apportation. By extention of the logic you are applying to Earth Meld, Flash should cost more (say, a blood) than Gleam of Red Eyes or Apportation. But it doesn't. Why? 'Cause of context--it is a different context, but a context none the less. Flash is a better card for the same cost, which is acceptible due to the context of Flash as opposed to the context of Gleam of Red Eyes or Apportation. Much like the context of Majesty makes it reasonable that it costs a blood when Earth Meld doesn't. Sure, in a vaccum, it seems silly that Earth Meld is free while Majesty isn't. But neither card exists in a vaccum. And you are correct--if you can pry Earth Meld *out* of the context where it is based, it becomes more powerful. But it is difficult to do that--the cheapest vampire in the game with PRO/dom is a 6, and there are only 6 group 1/2 (capacities 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11. Great crypt...) with that starting discipline spread and 8 group 2/3 (add an extra 7 and an extra 10). Sure, you can always use skill cards, but you can use skill cards to do anything with enough effort. So your argument that when take out of context, Earth Meld is more powerful than it deserves to be is valid, if you accept that the amount of effort it takes to successfully remove it from that context is considerable, and probably balances out the extra power gain. [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c3l42j$69q$1...@reader13.wxs.nl>, "Izaak" <i.hav...@SPAMklg.nl> mumbled something about: >> >This is true. However Majesty is extremely powerful -earth meld is >> >more powerful -easily comparable to Form of Mist. >> >> If you wanted to make a poor comparison, that is. >> >> Form of Mist is far past Earth Meld on the "effectiveness chart", >> because Form of Mist *directly* helps you win games. >> >> Earth Meld can only indirectly help you win games, by providing >multiple >> actions or multiple blocking attempts; neither of these allow the >> initial action to succeed in the way Form of Mist does. > >A free S:CE and untap is not stronger than Majesty even considering its >context? That's what I said, yep. I consider them about equal. >I may add, that the aforementioned Gangrel that naturally have pro >available ALSO have access to Freak Drive, the Homonculus and Animalism, >which also provides them with plenty of uptap options. Protean is an >incredible strong and versatile discipline that only lacks bleeding >power and intercept. You left out voting power, FYI. In other words, Protean doesn't directly help you win the game (can't bleed, can't vote), and doesn't directly help you defend (can't block without help). Its entire reason for existence is as a support discipline. Yeah, you heard me right; support discipline. It's an extremely versatile support discipline -- providing strong combat, stealth, and untap -- but it's still just a support discipline. As someone else pointed out, the mono-Protean weenie Computer Hacking deck took a real beating with the Form of Mist change (a good thing). Even then Protean was just a support card for Computer Hacking. >I also find that S:CE is a 99% defensive strike almost exclusively used >in decks that don't want to fight. Being able to avoid combat AND keep >your blockers ready FOR FREE is a bit over the top if you ask me. Note Assuming you can avoid combat, that is. I think if I want to be a deck that doesn't want to fight, and I want to use Protean to help me get there, I use a healthy mix of Quick Meld and Flesh of Marble. Things that Rush me run smack into two maneuvers and major damage prevention. Then I use a bunch of stealth and Form of Mist, to get past blockers, and I just don't block anything. But Earth Meld lets you block, and then untap to ... block again, leading to more combat and an increased chance that someone will draw into their S:CE hoser. Most combat decks prepare to handle S:CE. >However, the latter can also be used as a defensive card, which is why >it makes no sense to me that Pro would need a free S:CE and untap card. > >It has never caused me to lose games and neither would I call it >overpowered. It *is* pretty odd, however, as both Presence SCE cards >that allowed you to end combat at inferior were given a cost. Earth Meld >is no different card in that context. But restricting yourself to that context prevents you from seeing why. You need to look at what can be played in-discipline. >> I also consider Majesty to be a more effective "offensive" card than >> Earth Meld. Vampires with Presence have same-discipline access to >bleed >> enhancers and vote push, both of which provide direct pool damage to >> your prey. Gideon Fontaine can beat you up all game by playing Legal >> Manipulations, getting blocked, playing Majesty, and then calling KRC >> with BO and Voter Cap, making the blood back and gaining pool. That's >> pretty darn good for a 3-cap. > >Looks cute on paper, but the days that this worked are really over. Um... no. It works JUST FINE, trust me; especially backed up with Freak Drives so you can untap even when you're not in combat. >Sure, I might have pulled this of a few years ago, but between all the >permacept, cardbased intercept and combat, I doubt mr Fontaine will last >long. It might be a cool first/second turn thing, but it does require >the perfect hand. What makes you think you have to call the KRC right away? I have a handful of bleed cards and Majesty. I bleed with the first minion, untap, the second, untap, the third, untap... by now I should've cycled into some vote cards, and I can go back to the first minion and vote. >No stealth presence vote/bleed hasn't gotten me an awful lot of VP's >lately. The last time I played my Toreador 0-stealth multiple-action monstrosity, it generated ACTIVE hostility at the table and at least one snarl about "playing that in a casual game". It's based almost completely around Presence bleeds, Mind Numbs, Victoria Ash's and Yitzak's specials. Not even any votes in this one. It also nearly swept. It *runs* forward, and bloats big. What stopped it? A deck ALSO based around Toreador and Majesty; he had just as many untaps as I did, and even so I nearly got him. >That's a silly comparison. Protean is an entirely different discipline >than presence in that respect. Protean has its strength in incredible >versatility and dangerous combat. First round aggravated damage for one Neither of which oust your prey. >blood that can be played anywhere during a round is nothing to sneeze >at. Getting into combat with Fontaine is nothing scary. Heck, you expect >him to majesty and do something else. Blocking Chandler might have >painful consequences. Chandler won't do anything that I need to block. He can bleed me for 2, or he can call a vote that fails. Big deal. Sure, Gideon isn't anything scary in combat, but when he's backed up by Violette, Marianna, and Ranjan Rishi, just how many untaps DO you have in hand? Depending on what comes into MY hand, you'll likely need to stop 6-10 actions this turn -- and most of them are going to be a direct whack at your pool. I don't need to beat up your vamps, they go away when you're ousted anyway. And it's not like you can just refuse to block; Legal + Aire is a bleed of 5/6 (plus pool gain), and KRCs are 3 each plus possible pool gain. What about Mind Numb? Will you tap out each turn? How many Wakes are in that deck...? >> Flesh of Marble has no bearing on this issue. >> >> Earth Meld is equally as powerful as Majesty -- one is better for >> defense, one is better for offense. Making Earth Meld cost a blood >> would turn it into wallpaper in comparison to Form of Mist. > >How you would use Majesty offensively is beyond me. If untapping after >ending combat is offensive then Pro/Pre would, according to your logic >suddenly make Earth Meld an offensive card, which it is obviously not. That's because Protean can't bleed and can't vote. >Untapping after an action is a very strong effect, but calling it >offensive is bull IMO. >Poor argument here. It's clear that you've never been the prey of a PRE untap machine. I am NOT posting my decklist; I may play it at a qualifier, and it's got a couple quirks I do not want to become public information before I can make effective use of them. However, I reiterate: just because your vampire was just untapped doesn't mean he has to take the next action. That might help you realize just how nasty things can get if you're on the wrong end of THAT stick. A similar trick exists for the !Ventrue with Force of Will. One of my favorite ploys with them is to get 4 minions, take a non-bleeding action with my first minion (Restoration is great), then take a bunch of bleed actions with the rest of my minions, backed up with Freak Drives and some interspersed additional non-bleed actions. Then that first guy (who NEVER bled and has been tapped for 10 minutes while everyone else did the Sideways Wiggle) plays Force of Will/Conditioning. My prey is always out of untap by then, and the 6 pool that he didn't calculate for is usually either the oust, or the extra push that lets me get him next turn. Totally worth the usually-diablerized minion, though sometimes I can Freak Drive and get myself back out of torpor if I'm lucky. >> Form of Mist is clearly balanced right now with the 1-blood cost; >> therefore Earth Meld is balanced at free. > >You think so? I think Form of Mist is still too strong even WITH the >blood cost, simply because it adds stealth after ending combat. While >the other SCE and action continues cards can be worked around by using >wakes, that's not gonna work with Form of Ghost unless you can generate >more intercept. Also, the fact that Form of Ghost does not exclude >bleeding actions makes it even stronger. Sure it's a strong card. But if it cost 2 blood to get the effect, it'd be a completely dead slot -- nobody'd use it because you can't get a big enough effect behind it to justify the 2 blood. Compare to Beast Meld. And again, Protean can't bleed and can't vote. You have to start grafting other disciplines on before you get there; meaning that Form of Mist is not QUITE so easy to use to oust people as it looks. -- Derek a host is a host from coast to coast and no one will talk to a host that's close unless the host that isn't close is busy, hung, or dead

"Peter D Bakija" <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:BC84D5E1.14B8D%pd...@lightlink.com... > James Scott wrote: > > > However it was a Gangrel Ag Poke deck with a side seasoning of Henry to > > taste > > Out of curiosity, from what I recall, the Henry deck didn't win. Does it > often win? <snip sig> It does very well, the night in question it was stuck on a table with a THA CEL Steal/Blur/WalkofFlame Deck (his prey), my !Brujah deck, a Weenie SB deck (his predator) and a mixed bag gun deck. The weenie deck caused him a lot of problems at the start as did Xavier getting 6 blood stolen from him and then Wof'ed 3rd turn. Cheers James

> Well, ya know, the inferior part was free. I know. That is actually why I made me get into this argument in the first place. The untap effect, that you define as offensive, was apparently not the reason why the card got a cost. That has always costed a blood and still does. The only other effect Majesty has, which apparently needed a bloodcost was a unconditional SCE at inferior. For free. Earth Meld provides exactly that at inferior and is still free. The reason behind this is still unclear to me. Without the untap effect, both cards are strictly defensive in not much different contexts: it's being played by a deck that doesn't want to get into combat for whatever reason. Of course this can be argued to have to do with the fact that Protean is a combatty discipline by nature while presence is not. Regardless, it still strike me as odd. > > Thank god. It gives stealth, first round aggravated, nigh-immunity to > > combat damage, SCE in two forms, uber-maneuvers and presses. Seems quite > > enough to me. We don't want another Visscicitude or Obtenebration, right > > :-p > > Viscisitude is very powerful. But much like the Gangrel, the Tzimisce aren't > real good at ousting folks (yeah, yeah, I know--they can bleed for 3 per > action...) And untap, since Fiendish Tongue has a sort of built-in Freak Drive (at end of turn) for the Tzimi's. >Obtenebration is kinda fringe, and to really get a lot of mileage > out of it, you need it at superior. Meaning bigm expensive vampires. And > there are very few out of clan vampires with either. Which gets us to why the Lasombra aren't dominating things. They have arguably THE best discipline combo in the entire game (maybe second only to aus/dom/obf, but I doubt it), but lack low and midcaps with the correct ones, making them fairly balanced. Creating more superior disciplines suffers, again, from the too many moving parts syndrome. > > Putting your Mariana Gilbert (if you even have a copy - I don't...) at > > one blood and "useless" for the rest of the game. Unless of course your > > prey has an incompetent deck and can't deal with a one-blood PRE/cel > > vampire. Note that I *do* realize that Majesty is, within its own > > context a "better" card than Earth Meld. It's just that Protean is not > > incapable of doing anything at all. IME, Gangrel are pretty good at > > weenie voting thanks to cards like Flesh of Marble, Earth Meld and Form > > of Mist, backed up with some a very nice stealth card. > > But they can't pass the votes. They don't have presence. And few princes. That's why I said weenie votes. I should have said Weenie Princes. One of the better working concepts for Gangrel. Protean is perfect to back it up with and you don't have to "bother" with BO and Voter Cap > I'm not saying that protean is useless. It isn't. It is a fine discipline. > But given the context of the card, it is in no way unreasonable that Earth > Meld is free. Don't worry, I'm fine with both cards. [ quoted text not captured ] Well, this has also to do with the fact that one blood is already fairly expensive. Cards are either free, a blood or extremely expensive (2+ blood). The gap between one blood and free is very large, which is the reason why many cards are undercosted or overcosted in the first place. I may also add that Flash is most often used when celerity is being played as an out-of clan disciplines as Celerity itself often has better options to press or maneuver with. > Sure, in a vaccum, it seems silly that Earth Meld is free while Majesty > isn't. But neither card exists in a vaccum. And you are correct--if you can > pry Earth Meld *out* of the context where it is based, it becomes more > powerful. But it is difficult to do that--the cheapest vampire in the game > with PRO/dom is a 6, and there are only 6 group 1/2 (capacities 6, 7, 8, 9, > 10, 11. Great crypt...) with that starting discipline spread and 8 group 2/3 > (add an extra 7 and an extra 10). Sure, you can always use skill cards, but > you can use skill cards to do anything with enough effort. > So your argument that when take out of context, Earth Meld is more powerful > than it deserves to be is valid, if you accept that the amount of effort it > takes to successfully remove it from that context is considerable, and > probably balances out the extra power gain. So we agree. :-)

> And again, Protean can't bleed and can't vote. You have to start > grafting other disciplines on before you get there; meaning that Form of > Mist is not QUITE so easy to use to oust people as it looks. Funny enough, I kinda agree with all of your post (which I snipped) as you have probably read out of my discussion with Peter. Care to post a decklist *after* the qualifier?

Izaak wrote: > I know. > > That is actually why I made me get into this argument in the first > place. > The untap effect, that you define as offensive, was apparently not the > reason why the card got a cost. By "offensive", we mean "good for offense" rather than "problematic". Just making sure we are on the same page. > That has always costed a blood and still > does. > The only other effect Majesty has, which apparently needed a bloodcost > was a unconditional SCE at inferior. For free. It needed a blood cost so as to power down the weenie presence bleed decks that were so endemic in the day. Among other reasons. > > Earth Meld provides exactly that at inferior and is still free. The > reason behind this is still unclear to me. Again. Due to context. With inferior presence and a free Majesty, a 2 cost minion can bleed forward continually for 3, potentially 4 (or 5 if Delilah Easton), and if he gets blocked, he can get out of jail free. With inferior Earth Meld, you can go forward for a bleed of 2. Max. Ever. Presence is not a combat discipline. Combat cards cost Presence more than combat cards in combat disciplines. Just like Protean Stealth costs blood where Obfuscate stealth doesn't (I find it odd that you take issue with the Majesty/Earth Meld dichotomy but don't blink twice at the Lost in Crowds/Earth Control dichotomy--they strike me as a completely identical situation). Earth Meld is not the only S:CE effect that doesn't cost blood; Vicisitude's Meld with the Land is an inferior S:CE that doesn't cost blood as well (it has a cost, sure, but not a blood cost). Earth Meld doesn't cost blood 'cause it doesn't need to cost blood. Majesty does. > Of course this can be argued to have to do with the fact that > Protean is a combatty discipline by nature while presence is not. > Regardless, it still strike me as odd. But Earth Control costing a blood while Lost in Crowds is free *doesn't* strike you as odd? > I may also add that Flash is most often used when celerity is being > played as an out-of clan disciplines as Celerity itself often has better > options to press or maneuver with. ???? That strikes me as an odd assertion. Flash has been used in every in clan Celerity using deck I have ever built. Flash has been used in pretty much every in clan Celerity deck I have ever seen. > So we agree. :-) If by agree, you mean "Earth Meld is just fine as it is", then yeah, we do. :-) [ quoted text not captured ]

In message <c3pnpp$kon$1...@reader10.wxs.nl>, "Izaak" <i.hav...@SPAMklg.nl> mumbled something about: >> And again, Protean can't bleed and can't vote. You have to start [ quoted text not captured ] With a little bit of luck, it'll be posted as a result of winning. ;) Something you mentioned with Peter related to Majesty's inferior and Earth Meld's inferior: Both Majesty and Earth Meld are nothing more than combat defense at inferior. The reason Majesty needed to cost a blood was because of the hordes of weenie PRE that could easily escape all but dedicated combat... for free. And then, on their turn, they resume rapidly ousting you. Right now there aren't any hordes of weenie PRO overwhelming the V:TES scene (largely because Form of Mist now costs a blood). However, I'd like to point out that Rushing Sadie and having her play Earth Meld is potentially one of the more pleasant results to that combat; most of the others involve things like "Flesh of Marble, Lucky Blow, Claws for 2 agg, Amaranth, Gangrel Conspiracy". Rushing Frederick the Weak isn't going to generate any surprises... unless he plays Staredown instead of Majesty. Ooo. Sca-REE. [ quoted text not captured ]

Peter D Bakija <pd...@lightlink.com> wrote in message news:<BC838D66.14AF7%pd...@lightlink.com>... hey, pete, what's shakin...?! > Izaak wrote: > > > A free S:CE and untap is not stronger than Majesty even considering its > > context? > > No. It isn't. 'Cause it isn't going to make you win. Majesty comes with > "bleed for 6" and "push a vote through to damage your prey, fill up your > vampire, and gain 2 pool". Earth Meld comes with "make a good intercept > wall, if you also have intercept" or "bleed for 2 if you areusing Computer > Hacking". > > Really. Compare what Gideon Fontaine (3 PRE) can do, by himself, with what > Chandler Hungerford (3 PRO) can do by himself. well, pete, i hate to play devil's advocate on you, but chandler can pretty much do anything he wants reliably [earth meld + rapid change + form of mist = 4 stealth, pretty fair chance of getting yer ya-ya's off], while gideon is going to get blocked... gideon has access to better actions... chandler can make sure the actions he attempts succeed... two ***very*** different vampires... i think you're doing the question itself a disservice by asking the superior bearing 3 caps to represent the discipline as a whole... a fairer assesment is, what do the 5 and 6 caps do, with what other disciplines... dominate aside, no discipline is an island: it's all about the syngergies between various disciplines, and specials... > > I may add, that the aforementioned Gangrel that naturally have pro > > available ALSO have access to Freak Drive, the Homonculus and Animalism, > > which also provides them with plenty of uptap options. > > Which only supports my point. > > The Gangrel have access to *tons* of untap in clan--Freak Drive, Force of > Will, Homunculus, Movement of the Slow Body, Cats/Rats/Dogs. Given that the > Gangrel can untap at a moments notice in any instance, how is Earth Meld > that big of a deal? of course, the question then becomes, what are you going to do...? > > Protean is an > > incredible strong and versatile discipline that only lacks bleeding > > power and intercept. not precisely true... protean is a fairly strong but very toolboxy discipline, that is all over the map... stealth, combat, torpor tricks... its problems go beyond lack of bleed enhancement and lack of intercept... scarcity is its biggest problem... you really only find it in two places: gangrel and ! gangrel... ! gangrel are so across the chart that they're pretty much two separate clans with a common hunting ground... so your ability to mix and match with protean comes up way short when compared to presence, which is found all overthe place... > Exactly. Majesty costs a blood specifically cause it comes with bleeding > power. Earth Meld is really good with intercept, sure, but you *need another > discipline* to get that intercept. Protean doesn't give you what you need to > make Earth Meld good. And even then, it isn't that good. Presence comes with > everything you need built right in. actually, non-discipline based intercept seems, to me, to work a lot better with protean than does the discipline based stuff... protean and auspex don't pair up that often, so you're pretty much looking at raven spy and raptor... in a nutshell, birds get shot... bikes don't... radio stations don't either... > And everything that Protean *is* good at (combat) is *completely* countered > by using Earth Meld. not necessarily true, you know... 4 or 6 claws of the dead in an earth meld deck aren't a bad idea at all: "oh, by the way, don't forget about ***this***" > > I also find that S:CE is a 99% defensive strike almost exclusively used > > in decks that don't want to fight. Being able to avoid combat AND keep > > your blockers ready FOR FREE is a bit over the top if you ask me. > > But it isn't. 'Cause keeping your blockers ready FOR FREE doesn't make you > win games. It makes your prey win games. obviously, this is a newer player... which is fine... step one on the road to winning is, of course, not losing... so, applaud his defensive strategy... but, as you say, not losing is not the same as winning, either... to paraprhase peal, presence is a payload discipline... not the best one, but probably the second best... protean is a delivery system discipline... not the best one, but probably the second best... interestingly enough, protean and vicissitude are quite similar in design, with one small but significant difference: vicissitude got a bleed enhancer [changeling]... not much of one, but its existence alone puts it a nose ahead of protean... > > However, the latter can also be used as a defensive card, which is why > > it makes no sense to me that Pro would need a free S:CE and untap card. > > It has never caused me to lose games and neither would I call it > > overpowered. It *is* pretty odd, however, as both Presence SCE cards > > that allowed you to end combat at inferior were given a cost. Earth Meld > > is no different card in that context. so, use staredown... > But it is completely different in the context of what Protean can do (or the > Gangrel as a whole can do) as opposed to what Presence, even in and of > itself, can do. > > To repeat: > > Presence can: Bleed for 6. Push votes through while filling vampires and > gaining pool. > > Protean can: Semi successfully beat folks up (see: S:CE vs Protean), which > is completely nullified if you are using Earth Meld. again, the latter half of the statement is arguable... but again, the other factor is, protean tends to be paired with animalism and fortitude, exlcusively... presence, on the other hand, is all over the place, and you can team it up with obf, dom, whatever you want, pretty much... interestingly enough, one of the most succesful forays i've had with protean is by pairing it up with serpentis, which laso answers the intercept and bleed issues, as well as answering the "whatcha gonna do with all that untap...?" question... > > Looks cute on paper, but the days that this worked are really over. > > Sure, I might have pulled this of a few years ago, but between all the > > permacept, cardbased intercept and combat, I doubt mr Fontaine will last > > long. It might be a cool first/second turn thing, but it does require > > the perfect hand. > > No stealth presence vote/bleed hasn't gotten me an awful lot of VP's > > lately. > > And how many VPs has Protean got you? How often do Earth Meld heavy > intercept decks win games? Rarely, at best. i dunno... mine's pretty good... the factor here becomes, bleed bounce... protean-based options for bleed bounce are few and far between... i've chosen to go with the !gangrel packing dominate [caitlin, soldat, and sebastian goulet]... that's what is going to decide your vp count with protean... you can always go iliana / faruq / ingrid rossler, with straight gangrel... 6 of one, half dozen of the other... but, if you can't bounce bleeds, you're getting smoked out of tourneys, more often than not... pete, being the exception, of course... :) > The card that makes Protean a viable discipline, in terms of wining games, > really, is Form of Mist. And I think we all agree that Form of Mist, with a > cost of 1 blood, is reasonably balanced. form of mist made proteolicious a vaible ***deck*** but i'd not say it's the card that makes protean a viable discipline... earth control, flesh of marble, and even earth meld are all very strong cards... rapid change is even pretty good, flexible... what protean needs is a bleed modifier... or a bleed card... > Earth Meld, even without a cost, does less for you than Form of Mist. not true... they are totally different cards, meant to be played at totally different times... form of mist is a "my turn" card... earth control is a "not my turn" card, though it can be used to fair effect on your own turn as well... in that respect, it is form of mist, and not earth meld, that comes up a little lacking... > > That's a silly comparison. Protean is an entirely different discipline > > than presence in that respect. well, duh... :) > Yes. Presence is useful, in terms of winning games. Protean is useful, in > terms of helping other disciplines do things. again, delivery system versus payload... you need both to win games... > > Protean has its strength in incredible > > versatility and dangerous combat. > > Which isn't an issue if you are playing Earth Meld. So Earth Meld is really > good at making pretty much every other card in the Protean Arsenal useless. c'mon, pete -- you know that's not true... if you stymie every action your predator takes, and live to tell the tale, without bungling him up, he's still fending off his predator, but stalling off on you... assuming you make proper use of the leeway to wreck your prey, earth meld is getting you there... it won't do it alone, but what cards will...? > > First round aggravated damage for one > > blood that can be played anywhere during a round is nothing to sneeze > > at. he is diluting his argument here, i admit... the thing you should me looking at on that "claws of the dead" is the manuever, so grapple decks [like the ones pete is famous for] don't rip you a new one... > No, it isn't, but it also doesn't win games. Especially when you are playing > Earth Meld. well, if you play 'em at superior... > > Getting into combat with Fontaine is nothing scary. Heck, you expect > > him to majesty and do something else. Blocking Chandler might have > > painful consequences. > > Might. But what is Chandler doing in the first place that you want to block? > Bleeding for 2? Calling a vote he can't pass? there's the rub... but maybe he's diablerizing, or killing smiling jack, or wiping out your path... > > Neither am I. The setup has too many moving parts, but I'm gonna give it > > a shot nonetheless. if nothing else, the experience will be something to build on with your next deck... > > It probably shuts down that annoying light stealth/weenie bleeder in my > > playgroup. > > Sure -- which is good. The Henry Taylor wall is, at best, a clever trump to a > small number of reasonably good decks. *digging around for a copy* hmm... the gauntlet cast... > > How you would use Majesty offensively is beyond me. If untapping after > > ending combat is offensive then Pro/Pre would, according to your logic > > suddenly make Earth Meld an offensive card, which it is obviously not. > > Pro/Pre does make Earth Meld an offensive card. If you have reliable access > to PRO in a presence based deck, you use Earth Meld instead of Majesty. But > then you'd probably be using Form of Mist instead of either. the obvious strength of pro/pre is the access to stealth... and yes, you then obviously use earth meld, if you have PRO... marcellus...? does he have presence...? *digging some more* > This being said, there are few vampires who start with PRO, pre, let alone > pro, pre. It is a hard deck to build. A good one when you can pull it off, > but difficult. > > > Untapping after an action is a very strong effect, but calling it > > offensive is bull IMO. > > Poor argument here. untapping after an ***unsucessful*** action... keyword, there... > You go to do something. It is blocked. You Majesty and untap. You go do > something else. I fail to see where the question even is. Heck--a straight > forward Presnece based vote push deck with a handfull of Aire of Elation > suddenly becomes incredibly offensive with Majesty untap. > > > You think so? I think Form of Mist is still too strong even WITH the > > blood cost, simply because it adds stealth after ending combat. > > Again, context. What is Form of Mist really helping you do? Usually, bleed > for 2 with Computer Hacking. Sure, you can team up PRO with dom for good > bleeds, but then you are working with a small pool of expensive vampires. > > > It is for a reason, probably that pre/PRO starts at cap 7 (with only 5 > > vamps in the crypt) and PRO/dom at cap 6. I think 2 blood would be > > reasonable for that particular card, but looking at the blood-intensive > > context of protean as a whole, I suppose it's balanced. > > Form of Mist at 1 blood put a *huge* dent in the most effective protean deck > strategy that there was--weenie Computer Hacking FoM bleed--such that those > decks are just barely competetive at this point. > > > Still then, it gets pretty ridiculous if you take these two cards (Earth > > Meld and Form of Ghost) out of the protean/gangrel context, which was > > the whole point. > > Not rediculous at all. 'Cause it is difficult to take them out of that > context. Sure, there are some strong PRO/dom decks out there that use Form > of Mist and Earth Meld to good effect. But they are hardly the scourge of > the competetive scene. And there are good intercept wall decks that use > Earth Meld to protect Smiling Jack that occasionally win games too. But > again, hardly over the top. > > I'll be impressed if a Henry Taylor wall deck, for instance, can win games > regularly, let alone win tournaments regularly. i'll think upon this and get back to you on it, though i figure pete's probably right: henry taylor is not a "one-man-show" kind of vampire... peace -- -- khs "eritis sicut dii, scientes bonum et malum..."

Kevin wrote: >hey, pete, what's shakin...?! Ah, ya know. The shaky stuff :-) >well, pete, i hate to play devil's advocate on you, but chandler can >pretty much do anything he wants reliably [earth meld + rapid change + >form of mist = 4 stealth, pretty fair chance of getting yer ya-ya's >off], while gideon is going to get blocked... gideon has access to >better actions... chandler can make sure the actions he attempts >succeed... two ***very*** different vampires... Oh, sure—I’m not , like, claiming that Protean isn’t useful. Just that in and of themselves, as similar vampires in the most base of situations, they illustrate why Majesty costs 1 blood where Earth Meld does not—don’t lose sight of the thurst of my argument. I’m not making sweeping statements about Presence and Protean in an absolute sense—I’m making sweeping statements about Presence and Protean is so much as they support why Majesty costs a blood while Earth Meld does not. Yes, Chandler is much better at actually getting things done than Gideon, due to stealth options. But Gideon has much bigger and better things to do… >i think you're doing the question itself a disservice by asking the >superior bearing 3 caps to represent the discipline as a whole... Again, keep in mind that I’m not looking that the disciplines as a whole— only as a whole in relation to the Majesty/Earth Meld dichotomy. >not necessarily true, you know... 4 or 6 claws of the dead in an >earth meld deck aren't a bad idea at all: "oh, by the way, don't >forget about ***this***" Oh, certainly—but still, the synergy between Earth Meld and the rest of what protean is good at is not necessarily the best one. All the Flesh of Marbles, maneuvers, presses, and agro damages in your deck are going to be mostly chaff if you find yourself playing the Earth Meld a lot. I mean, yeah, it is good to have options and versatility in a discipline, but if, say, you are building a Gangrel combat deck that intends on torporizing, putting in a large number of Earth Melds in is going to be somewhat counter productive. >interestingly enough, protean and vicissitude are quite similar in >design, with one small but significant difference: vicissitude got a >bleed enhancer [changeling]... not much of one, but its existence >alone puts it a nose ahead of protean... It also has a “free” S:CE—Meld with the Land. >again, the latter half of the statement is arguable... but again, the >other factor is, protean tends to be paired with animalism and >fortitude, exlcusively... presence, on the other hand, is all over t>he place, and you can team it up with obf, dom, whatever you want, >pretty much... Sure—again, mostly I was just looking at the two disciplines in terms of justification for Earth Meld being free. Part of that justification is precisely this—Earth Meld comes with Fortitude and Animalism, neither of which provide knock out ousting power, where Majesty comes with, well, Presence and/or Dominate and/or Obfuscate, which combine into significant ousting oomph. >form of mist made proteolicious a vaible ***deck*** but i'd not say >it's the card that makes protean a viable discipline... I think Form of Mist is probably the strongest weapon in the protean arsenal, in terms of getting to oust folks. I mean, yeah, Protean has a lot of other good cards for combat and blocking folks, but in therms of overall VP acquisition, Form of Mist, even with the new blood cost, is totally the bomb. >earth >control, flesh of marble, and even earth meld are all very strong >cards... rapid change is even pretty good, flexible... what protean >needs is a bleed modifier... or a bleed card... Yeah—that would make Protean totally good then. Even a blood for +1/+2 would make Protean fantastically useful. Heck, even a unrelated inferior/ +1 bleed superior modifier would be fantastic. But then, I could see Earth Meld being justified as having to cost 1 blood :-) >not true... they are totally different cards, meant to be played at >totally different times... form of mist is a "my turn" card... earth >control is a "not my turn" card, though it can be used to fair effect >on your own turn as well... in that respect, it is form of mist, and >not earth meld, that comes up a little lacking... Oh, sure—in reality, yeah, they are both very good, and both have fantastic uses. But in terms of actually ousting folks? Form of Mist is all over Earth Meld. >c'mon, pete -- you know that's not true... if you stymie every action >your predator takes, and live to tell the tale, without bungling him >up, he's still fending off his predator, but stalling off on you... >assuming you make proper use of the leeway to wreck your prey, earth >meld is getting you there... it won't do it alone, but what cards >will...? Sure—but to be able to stymie all of those actions, you probably need Eagle’s Sight. Which Earth Meld doesn’t come with naturally. >*digging around for a copy* >hmm... the gauntlet cast... Heh heh :-) Again, I certainly think a Henry Taylor wall is a viable deck design. Probably on par with an Eternally Vigilant Cailean deck, in terms of difficulty of set up and lock down possibilities. I’d be excited to actually see one winning things. I’m just not holding my breath :-) Peter D Bakija pd...@lightlink.com http://www.lightlink.com/pdb6 "Punk rock's been pretty good to me for twenty years. It's my year to give back: I'm dedicating the next year of my life to fucking the Bush administration." -Fat Mike, http://www.punkvoter.com Rock on

> And how many VPs has Protean got you? How often do Earth Meld heavy > intercept decks win games? Rarely, at best. Remember Wes Gangrel Wall that used Nadima (for/ser/pro/ani)? I took it, tweaked it for my metagame and have won twice with it. :) > This being said, there are few vampires who start with PRO, pre, let alone > pro, pre. It is a hard deck to build. A good one when you can pull it off, > but difficult. My Wolf-R-Us, abusing the Siamese, Nettie Haler and Bear Pow came in second in a Storyline last year =]

Kit...@Tjohoo.se (Kitzune) wrote in message news:<f3d02f39.04032...@posting.google.com>... [ quoted text not captured ] Btw, Omaya säger nej, är en bra lek :]