Q: LSJ (Free States Rant and Votes)

It has come to my attention that a ruling has been made, that considers ANY vampire with inherent votes, a titled vampire, thus worth one less vote during the Free States Rant Votes?! Is this actually so (i.e. Nehsi having only 1 inherent vote during the FSR referendum (plus the one from the card itself))?? Just does´nt seem to make sense! Please advice! -- Posted via Mailgate.ORG Server - http://www.Mailgate.ORG

"Claus Staal" <c...@mbureauet.dk> ha scritto nel messaggio news:685bbf8f419aa0e7ba0...@mygate.mailgate.org... > It has come to my attention that a ruling has been made, that considers > ANY vampire with inherent votes, a titled vampire, thus worth one less > vote during the Free States Rant Votes?! Is this actually so (i.e. Nehsi > having only 1 inherent vote during the FSR referendum (plus the one from > the card itself))?? > > Just does´nt seem to make sense! It does, an (independent) vampire with starting votes loses his/her votes if he manages to get another title, say, impersonating either a sabbat or camarilla clan, and receiving a title. So, Neshi *is* a titled vampire, and gets one less vote durting the free states rant. Ciao Emiliano, v:ekn prince of Rome [ quoted text not captured ]

Claus Staal wrote: > It has come to my attention that a ruling has been made, that considers > ANY vampire with inherent votes, a titled vampire, thus worth one less > vote during the Free States Rant Votes?! Is this actually so (i.e. Nehsi > having only 1 inherent vote during the FSR referendum (plus the one from > the card itself))?? > > Just does´nt seem to make sense! > The card itself states that titled vampires are worth one less vote, and a titled vampire is one who has either the Camarilla or Sabbat titles or has inherent votes (example Thetmes, Caliph of Alamut). There has been no ruling to change that. So yes, Nehsi has only one vote during a Free States Rant. Archibald Zimonyi Malkavian Prince of Gothenburg

[ quoted text not captured ] Correct. This is stated explicitly in the rules, so no additional ruling is necessary. -- LSJ (vte...@white-wolf.com) V:TES Net.Rep for White Wolf, Inc. Links to V:TES news, rules, cards, utilities, and tournament calendar: http://www.white-wolf.com/vtes/

>It has come to my attention that a ruling has been made, that considers >ANY vampire with inherent votes, a titled vampire, thus worth one less >vote during the Free States Rant Votes?! Is this actually so (i.e. Nehsi >having only 1 inherent vote during the FSR referendum (plus the one from >the card itself))?? > >Just does´nt seem to make sense! It's a double-edged sword. So the Indies with votes get less votes with FSR and are vulnerable to title-targeting effects (can't block Propaganda, get hit for extra vs. Chas, etc.) But on the other hand, it also gives them access to cards that require a titled vampire (Reinforcements, Nat'l Guard Support, etc.). Otherwise the Independents wouldn't have access to such cards. You also have the advantage of a *non-sect-specific* title. So if you CI into a Cam or Sabbat clan, you're still titled (and protected from Cardinal Sin: Insubordination or can call the vote to burn a Purchase Pact). Anyway, giving them 2 non-titled votes would make them a bit too powerful. Nehsi gets a Writ and a Praxis and now has 4 votes? Amisa CI's to some Sabbat clan and becomes a Regent and now she has 6 votes? (Almost as bad as that Gratiano nonsense!). I definitely agree with and like the fact that Indies with inherent votes are titled. It better maintains balance. Though it may be annoying in some corner-case scenarios, it can be equally helpful in some other corner-cases. Halcyan 2

"Halcyan 2" <halc...@aol.com> wrote in message news:20020609112242...@mb-cc.aol.com > It's a double-edged sword. > > So the Indies with votes get less votes with FSR and are vulnerable to > title-targeting effects (can't block Propaganda, get hit for extra vs. Chas, > etc.) Yes :o) > > But on the other hand, it also gives them access to cards that require a titled > vampire (Reinforcements, Nat'l Guard Support, etc.). Otherwise the Independents > wouldn't have access to such cards. You also have the advantage of a > *non-sect-specific* title. So if you CI into a Cam or Sabbat clan, you're still > titled (and protected from Cardinal Sin: Insubordination or can call the vote > to burn a Purchase Pact). Well ... sure, but we are talking about a 10-cap. vampire taking 2 actions just to gain another 2 votes?! Unless he freak drives at some point, I would find it a "waste" of actions to make him go for those votes, when he could just go get the Lyndhurst Estate or modify the referendum with Awe, BO or Dread Gaze as a reaction to referendum called by another vampire. > Anyway, giving them 2 non-titled votes would make them a bit too powerful. > Nehsi gets a Writ and a Praxis and now has 4 votes? Amisa CI's to some Sabbat > clan and becomes a Regent and now she has 6 votes? Sure 6 votes is a LOT of power, but again we are talking about an action followed by a master card (which btw. isn´t as bad as the before mentioned 2 action for 2 votes deal with Nehsi) > > I definitely agree with and like the fact that Indies with inherent votes are > titled. It better maintains balance. Though it may be annoying in some > corner-case scenarios, it can be equally helpful in some other corner-cases. > > Halcyan 2 On the other hand I find it rather contradictionary that Setites try to undermine all sorts of "structures" and elements belonging to structures (like the structure of rulership in the Camarilla and Sabbat, respectively), through blackmailing, the Dismemberment of Osiris and Thrones Crumbled and then themselves suddenly falling into the same category of "lost children" embracing these structures?!! Then again it might just be me ... :o) Regards [ quoted text not captured ]

>Well ... sure, but we are talking about a 10-cap. vampire taking 2 >actions just to gain another 2 votes?! Unless he freak drives at some >point, I would find it a "waste" of actions to make him go for those >votes, when he could just go get the Lyndhurst Estate or modify the >referendum with Awe, BO or Dread Gaze as a reaction to referendum called >by another vampire. First off, if you're using the CI's, you're probably using them for other stuff too. (CI to Ventrue, which also gives you access to say, Hostile Takeover). In addition, never underestimate the power and importance of permanent votes. Sooner or later you'll run out of Awes or BO's (or just won't have them in your hand). Ventrue Headquarters and its ilk must be tapped to use its effect (so you can only use it for one vote). Whereas permanent votes are just that (assuming you don't get burned or lose the title). >On the other hand I find it rather contradictionary that Setites try to >undermine all sorts of "structures" and elements belonging to structures >(like the structure of rulership in the Camarilla and Sabbat, >respectively), through blackmailing, the Dismemberment of Osiris and >Thrones Crumbled and then themselves suddenly falling into the same >category of "lost children" embracing these structures?!! Um...I'm pretty sure the Setites have some sort of "structure" as well. With Set at the top, most of his Childes at the next rung, and other such ancients well above some 13th generation neonate. I don't understand where you're getting that Setites hate structure. Setites just want to bring back their god (Set) and corrupt and use everyone else. It's quite likely that having some structure would help them with their goals. Hell, even the Anarchs have some structure ("Barons" and such). Similarly, the Giovanni and Assamites most likely would have some sort of structure and appropriate titles. And though the Ravnos might not have such a formal structure, they'd probably show a great deal of reverence to important "titled" elders... Halcyan 2

<snip> > Um...I'm pretty sure the Setites have some sort of "structure" as well. With > Set at the top, most of his Childes at the next rung, and other such ancients > well above some 13th generation neonate. I don't understand where you're > getting that Setites hate structure. Setites just want to bring back their god > (Set) and corrupt and use everyone else. It's quite likely that having some > structure would help them with their goals. Hell, even the Anarchs have some > structure ("Barons" and such). As I'm fairly ignorant of the RPG, does this mean that the there will be a new political structure introduced with the Anarchs set? Or likely just more innate votes like we've seen with the Independants? Do the various Anarch titles bestow access to certain rituals, rites or traditions (or similar type phenomena coming from this structure)? Just curious as I love to speculate about new sets before they arrive. Also, LSJ...we looking at a Christmas release for Anarchs?

"Jon Stahler" <sta...@ilir.uiuc.edu> wrote in message news:<X84N8.12916$U7.1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>... > <snip> > > As I'm fairly ignorant of the RPG, does this mean that the there will be a > new political structure introduced with the Anarchs set? Or likely just > more innate votes like we've seen with the Independants? Do the various > Anarch titles bestow access to certain rituals, rites or traditions (or > similar type phenomena coming from this structure)? Just curious as I love > to speculate about new sets before they arrive. Yes, they have Barons, Chameleon's, Emmisaries, and other such non-sense, with certain 'rituals' and feelings towards old traditions and rituals of the camerilla. They're mostly just an anti-camerilla group, so we'll probably see some political influence within it. As the entire reason to be an anarch is to rebel against the system, it would only be naturaly that this political hatred would result in politics. ~SV

In message <X84N8.12916$U7.1...@vixen.cso.uiuc.edu>, Jon Stahler <sta...@ilir.uiuc.edu> writes: >As I'm fairly ignorant of the RPG, does this mean that the there will be a >new political structure introduced with the Anarchs set? Or likely just >more innate votes like we've seen with the Independants? If they're Independents, innate votes -> titles are an option. (Bearing in mind that Brujah anarchs etc. also exist.) If they're Camarilla or Sabbat: <URL:http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=9h066p%246mc%241%40taliesin.ne tcom.net.uk> -- James Coupe PGP 0x5D623D5D I am woman. Here, me raw. EBD690ECD7A1FB457CA2 13D7E668C3695D623D5D