Conditional Combat Cards

My last topic was about "Design by storytelling" vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/9850-design-by-storytelling This is a tangent of that. My card idea in that thread was Rubble 1 Strike: burn location attached to the opposing minion. Only usable in a combat resulting from an action to burn a location. Strike: Burn the location and put this card on the opposing minion. Burn this card instead of untapping the minion. The concept a combat card that is conditional. In this case it effectively completes the intended action in the resulting combat. Fair? Hard to say without playtesting, but it does take setup, and it takes a strike that isn't dealing damage to carry out. Now lets apply this to other card ideas: I'm going to list a couple examples below, I'm not going to elaborate on the evolution of the ideas. What it boils down to is that you can make a card like this for every discipline, and for a variety of action types. I think it's an interesting mechanic that might work, given enough tweaking and playtesting. In addition, it would be good for a large base set where we want to give something to every discipline, and will add more elements to building a deck concept. I have more ideas down this line, maybe I will post them later, but how does it work as a concept? Think it's too good for clans without much stealth? Think it gives too much advantage to combat decks? Will it make decks with large vampires more viable without relying on multi-action strategies? Relay 1 Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was attempting a political action. Before range. Place this card on another vampire you control. That vampire burns this card during the next referendum for 2 votes. As above, and move the political action with this card. That vampire may play the political action as if from your hand. With Benefits Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was attempting to bleed. Only usable at close range, before strikes are chosen. Put this card on the opposing minion. That minion gets -1 intercept against the this minion. As above, with Strike: combat ends. Wraithly Revenge 1 Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was attempting to recruit an ally or retainer. Use before range is determined. Remove the ally or retainer from the game to deal X damage during strike resolution, where X is it's blood or pool cost. As above, with an optional press. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

IMHO all the cards are way too strong, especially the superior versions. No way. Baron of Frankfurt

Interesting ideas, nice concept. I like these one's more than your location burning card. I do agree with Joscha thought that as written they are too strong. See my suggested modifications below. > direwolf wrote: > Relay > 1 > > Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was attempting a political action. Before range. > Place this card on another vampire you control. That vampire burns this card during the next referendum for 2 votes. > As above, and move the political action with this card. That vampire may play the political action as if from your hand. > The basic is possibly fair if it were limited to 1 per combat, the superior is too strong. I'm also not sure about the card name. I'd prefer something that evokes the idea of a political activist who is being violently oppressed, can't think of a good alternate name for it right now though. Relay Only usable before range during the first round of a combat where this vampire was blocked while attempting to perform a political action. Only one Relay may be played each combat. Place this card on this acting vampire. This vampire may burn this card during the referendum of a political action to get 2 additional votes. As above but place this card on any vampire you control who does not already have a Relay. > direwolf wrote: > With Benefits > > Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was attempting to bleed. Only usable at close range, before strikes are chosen. > Put this card on the opposing minion. That minion gets -1 intercept against the this minion. > As above, with Strike: combat ends. > This is too strong as written. I would change it to a) require a strike and b) be temporary. With Benefits Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was attempting to bleed. Only usable at close range. Strike: hand strike and put this card on the opposing minion. The striking vampire may burn this card while acting to give this minion -1 intercept. Strike: combat ends and put this card on the opposing minion as above. Also, note the wording. The phrase 'this minion' always refers to the minion that the card is on. See Unholy Penance. > direwolf wrote: > Wraithly Revenge > 1 > > Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was attempting to recruit an ally or retainer. Use before range is determined. > Remove the ally or retainer from the game to deal X damage during strike resolution, where X is it's blood or pool cost. > As above, with an optional press. > Should be a strike, and possibly should be only usable first round. Removing the ally from the game is harsh as it means the card does not work well with existing Necromancy ally deck archetypes. My suggestion would be: Wraithly Revenge 1 Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was blocked while attempting to recruit an ally or retainer. Only one Wraithly Revenge may be played each combat. Strike: ranged; X damage where X is the printed blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat.

> Joscha wrote: > IMHO all the cards are way too strong, especially the superior versions. No way. > Too good? I dunno man.... I agree the presence version is like, outlandishly overpowered, but all the others would never make the cut in my decks. Potence "only usable in a combat resulting from an action to destroy a location" So... I first have to actually play destroy location tech. Then I have to get blocked. Then I have to have no other useful strike. I'll stick to Signpost/Grapple thank you. Auspex "only usable when blocking a political action". So first my prey or predator need to play political actions. Then I need to want to block those. Then I can play the card, without actually having a votedeck and the guy I got the card from *is* playing one. The idea of conditional cards is not neccesarily bad, but they would likely never see play because they are that - conditional. Any card that is deadweight in your hand in every other game will simply never see play.

Agreed. Only the "bleed block" card could be played, the others being far too conditional. Building cards only by "storytelling design" leads to crap such as Tortured Confession (which, though making perfect sense, is terrible). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

oh SHOOT i forgot an important part of the presence card. I intended it to have a burn clause. I was tired last night... but yeah the point is to discuss the concepts, not necessarily nitpick the details. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> Joscha wrote: > IMHO all the cards are way too strong, especially the superior versions. No way. > Thanks for the constructive criticism. (Sarcasm!) Of COURSE the cards are going to be to powerful. Most ideas start as something too powerful, they need to be adjusted. Hence the point of posting the ideas. I made no claim that my ideas are thoroughly designed and ready for play. I don't think they are even ready for playtesting. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> Mael wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > Wraithly Revenge > > 1 > > > > Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was attempting to recruit an ally or retainer. Use before range is determined. > > Remove the ally or retainer from the game to deal X damage during strike resolution, where X is it's blood or pool cost. > > As above, with an optional press. > > > Should be a strike, and possibly should be only usable first round. > Removing the ally from the game is harsh as it means the card does not work well with existing Necromancy ally deck archetypes. > My suggestion would be: > > Wraithly Revenge > 1 > > Only usable in a combat in which this vampire was blocked while attempting to recruit an ally or retainer. Only one Wraithly Revenge may be played each combat. > Strike: ranged; X damage where X is the printed blood or pool cost of that ally or retainer. > As above, with an optional press, only usable to end combat. > Is it bad that it doesn't work well with existing necromancy ally deck archetypes? One of the things that makes it interesting to me is that the player has to make a choice: is it worth it more to have an ally in the ash heap, or to play this combat card? Also, shouldn't new cards pave the way for new deck types? There are some risks: One is that no one will play the card because they are used to their same old deck types. The other is that we would have to create a dozen more new cards to make a new deck concept work. At least the above mentioned change won't change the games landscape as much as the Imbued did. (Or at least I hope!) Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Is it bad that it doesn't work well with existing necromancy ally deck archetypes? One of the things that makes it interesting to me is that the player has to make a choice: is it worth it more to have an ally in the ash heap, or to play this combat card? > > Also, shouldn't new cards pave the way for new deck types? There are some risks: One is that no one will play the card because they are used to their same old deck types. The other is that we would have to create a dozen more new cards to make a new deck concept work. > I think it's the kind of card that you would splash, not that you'd base a deck around. As such, I think it's important that it would work well with existing cards (or at least, not hinder existing cards) if it's to be used. This is also why I think it should specify that the damage is equal to the printed cost of the card that was blocked.

> direwolf wrote: > I have more ideas down this line, maybe I will post them later, but how does it work as a concept? Think it's too good for clans without much stealth? Think it gives too much advantage to combat decks? Will it make decks with large vampires more viable without relying on multi-action strategies? > While planning a deck, I wouldn't ever want to play one of these cards as written instead of having the action succeed. They seem to be support cards while what I would expect to gain for the opportunity cost is a payload that I can build a deck around. Still, it's not a terrible concept.

I like the idea, but share the concern that anything so conditional would be mostly unplayable. Perhaps having "outferior" unconditional playability and/or draft text would help integrate such a concept. Like Rubble Play before range is determined. If the opposing minion is not ready after combat, burn a location controlled by that minion's controller. As above, and this vampire may burn one blood for +1 strength this round. As above, but you may burn a location if the opposing minion takes any damage this round. DRAFT: Enter combat with a minion controlled by another methuselah. I suggest a new strategy...let the Wookie win.