What no sticky?

I think this section of the forum could use a sticky. First of all, is someone compiling a list of ideas and organizing them? I know there is some talk of trying to unofficially continue making cards for this game since it is not longer in print. Will someone involved in those endeavors be reading these suggestions? I'm the type that comes up with ideas, and I'm all for sharing them, but I would like there to be a purpose beyond kicking around ascii characters across a screen. If indeed these cards would be printed there should be some sort of developmental process... Ideas get discussed and rehashed on the community level and submitted to a committee to be approved for playtesting. "Print and Play" the playtest cards and players submit feedback. Cards are adjusted by the design team as required. If there is a place for this type of discussion, please point me in the right direction. Otherwise a summary of suggestions might be a good idea. When this thread gets too big, it will be hard to read through all of the suggestions easily. Anyway these are my thoughts. Like i said I come up with ideas. Unfortunately I'm not so good at executing. Discuss. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > First of all, is someone compiling a list of ideas and organizing them? I know there is some talk of trying to unofficially continue making cards for this game since it is not longer in print. Will someone involved in those endeavors be reading these suggestions? Discuss. > If you aren't part of the design team, I don't think that you need to worry about this. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Well, since the game is dead, theoretically there is no design team. If there is one in place, who are they and are they actually going to make and produce anything? Since I've personally made about 200 new cards I guess I'm a design team. CreaCartas dnn.vtes.net , a few ideas, and a color printer, and poof!I've designed sets for the next few years. Prince of Puyallup

> glaswanderer wrote: > Well, since the game is dead, theoretically there is no design team. If there is one in place, who are they and are they actually going to make and produce anything? Since I've personally made about 200 new cards I guess I'm a design team. CreaCartas dnn.vtes.net , a few ideas, and a color printer, and poof!I've designed sets for the next few years. > Well, if you think you're on the Design Team, then you aren't. I'm certainly not. I think people need to realize that other than a fantastic meeting place on the internet, there isn't much that's going to change in the "processes" that govern our game, because most were pretty darn good. So what will happen is that people will post their cool new card ideas here, and the Design Team will see them, and when new cards come out, they come out. If you are TEH AWESOME!!11! then you might get asked to become part of the Design Team. Or you won't. Either way, keep posting your card ideas. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> I think people need to realize that other than a fantastic meeting place on the internet, there isn't much that's going to change in the "processes" that govern our game, because most were pretty darn good. > > So what will happen is that people will post their cool new card ideas here, and the Design Team will see them, and when new cards come out, they come out. If you are TEH AWESOME!!11! then you might get asked to become part of the Design Team. Or you won't. Either way, keep posting your card ideas. > Ok are you saying there IS a design process going on? Is there someone reading these ideas that might actually get compiled into something official, or even something semi-official? Even if they don't get cleared for tournament play, it would be nice to have a system in place for fair and balanced cards that could be used in casual play. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Even if they don't get cleared for tournament play, it would be nice to have a system in place for fair and balanced cards that could be used in casual play. > 'Casual' play is as irrelevant to the VEKN. Why should they, or any governing body, care one bit how you play their game/sport when you aren't playing for meaning or consequences? Why do you want the official governing body to govern your personal life? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > Even if they don't get cleared for tournament play, it would be nice to have a system in place for fair and balanced cards that could be used in casual play. > > > 'Casual' play is as irrelevant to the VEKN. Why should they, or any governing body, care one bit how you play their game/sport when you aren't playing for meaning or consequences? Why do you want the official governing body to govern your personal life? > Ok, put it this way: Since the game is no longer published, there is no authority for which to include new cards in tournament play. However if there were a governing body to allow for new cards to be created and be accepted for "casual" play, then that is a step onto competitive play. Even cards printed by White Wolf had a delay before they were legal for play in tournaments. Anyone can make up some cards that say "I Win" and print them and try to play them. But they have to be accepted as valid by the community. If people seriously want to make up new cards and play them we need a system to validate these cards. Whether it be for casual play or tournament play. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Ok, put it this way: Since the game is no longer published, there is no authority for which to include new cards in tournament play. > Incorrect. The VEKN is a non-corporate player-based organization, but it is the "official" organization for every aspect of the game. That's assuming, of course, that you wish to continue playing the game for international ranking and with international consequences. Again: If you wish to play by your own rules when nothing is at stake and all the other players agree to play by your rules and not the current official rules set, feel free. > direwolf wrote: > Anyone can make up some cards that say "I Win" and print them and try to play them. But they have to be accepted as valid by the community. If people seriously want to make up new cards and play them {{in casual play}} we need a system to validate these cards. > There was never a system in place for 15 years of WW/CCP ownership to validate homemade cards for non-tournament play. Why do you believe that there should be one now? I've been reading these cards that have been created by some of the players. They range from ridiculous to stupid to balanced to boring to interesting. I've given feedback on a few of them. All of them have gotten some feedback. (And I'm not even counting Pascal giving his personal, non-official feedback.) Is this non-official feedback not enough to satisfy you? Note that there *IS* a system of new card review for official tournament play: The Design Team. Whether the VEKN has put together such a team, whether the VEKN will ask people to play test cards that are created, whether those cards will become "legal for tournament play", I have no idea, because I am not part of the VEKN leadership, nor am I part of The Design Team (whether or not one exists). Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Note that there *IS* a system of new card review for official tournament play: The Design Team. Whether the VEKN has put together such a team, whether the VEKN will ask people to play test cards that are created, whether those cards will become "legal for tournament play", I have no idea, because I am not part of the VEKN leadership, nor am I part of The Design Team (whether or not one exists). > I think this was one of the questions asked a couple of posts earlier. You implied you knew something about the design team, you were asked if you really did, and I really contemplated if anyone should speak FOR the design team, or speculate their intentions (like how they reply to the notion of 'casual play'), if they aren't in it, or know nothing about it. What I would like to have, is an announcement from the VEKN part about what's going on. I've heard stuff about a new .pdf release, or something, but there's really no informationa anywhere. I, for one, would love to hear more - either about something being done, or not! "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Kraus wrote: > I think this was one of the questions asked a couple of posts earlier. You implied you knew something about the design team, you were asked if you really did, and I really contemplated if anyone should speak FOR the design team, or speculate their intentions (like how they reply to the notion of 'casual play'), if they aren't in it, or know nothing about it. > Let me be clear: What I "know" is nothing, since I'm not part of any design team. I was never part of a design team with WW/CCP and I'm not part of a design team now. I know that one existed with WW/CCP because it was publicly known that LSJ *was* the design team. So, with the VEKN, I'm *assuming* that there is a design team, if the VEKN has any intent upon releasing new cards in the future, cards which would have to be PDF-based and free to avoid a lawsuit. There was some talk of PDF-based cards being the future of V:TES at the NAC, in the sense that Johannes was there and some players were barraging him with suggestions, and he didn't say anything official in response, but thought that many of the ideas had merit, and he somewhat agreed that PDF-based cards would be the way to go if a company couldn't be found to print actual playing cards. Or, there might not be a design team, if the VEKN has no intent upon releasing new cards. > Kraus wrote: > What I would like to have, is an announcement from the VEKN part about what's going on. I've heard stuff about a new .pdf release, or something, but there's really no information anywhere. > Why do you expect the VEKN to announce that they are developing new cards for official tournament play if such a thing was never done in 10+ years of WW/CCP organization? There was a sort-of timetable for which the players could expect a new set within, but to the best of my knowledge, LSJ never publicly said "OK, I'm developing a new set now." In other words: What would the VEKN hope to gain by such an announcement? On the one hand, for players who are interested in the continuation of the game, it'd be an interesting, fun announcement that new cards were being developed. Perhaps such an announcement could entice a current player who is thinking about quitting to stay. I seriously doubt that any potential new player would come on board simply because the VEKN is developing new cards. On the other hand, if the VEKN doesn't have a date in mind for play testing and/or release for play, or if the cards will be released piecemeal or as part of a set, I can see this forum, and perhaps the entire forum, becoming massively disrupted by every player putting in their two cents about everything and anything that pops into their head. Given those options, and whatever else I haven't thought of, the VEKN is probably wise to limit the existence and identities of the design team and/or new PDF-cased cards a secret for now. If a design team and/or new cards even exist, of course. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> I'm *assuming* -- > Thank you. > Why do you expect the VEKN to announce that they are developing new cards for official tournament play if such a thing was never done in 10+ years of WW/CCP organization? > Lönkka was the one spreading bits of information about the new set "being considered, and on the first steps of design," (not a direct quote) in Ropecon last August. If there is something being done, I'd love to hear of it. We're not a secretive corporation, but fans working on hobby supplies for fans. Some open mindness can't hurt, to be fair. > In other words: What would the VEKN hope to gain by such an announcement? > Applaudes, pats to the back, cheers, more questions about release dates, happy people waiting for new stuff, inspired gamers, probably more offers for fan-made art... I'd love to be able to tell the swarm of beginners in here that there's something either coming or not, not just 'something probably being discussed'. People fed up easily if the community chairmen keep failing expectations, leave said people in the dark, leave rumours hanging... To be fair, it's just good taste and better leadership to inform who's doing what, and keep people informed. Manners, sportsmanship, whatever - it's good policy. > On the other hand, if the VEKN doesn't have a date in mind for play testing and/or release for play, or if the cards will be released piecemeal or as part of a set, I can see this forum, and perhaps the entire forum, becoming massively disrupted by every player putting in their two cents about everything and anything that pops into their head. > But this IS happening right now, isn't it? I can name more than three people working on a rather wide list of new cards. I'd argue it's to a similar end: getting people interested in the continuation, inspiring discussion, poking around to get the people in charge to comment, or get someone from the supposed team to recognize their work. Or any combination of those. I mean, the issue at hand is that people DO want some news, and more importantly a new set of cards. They're just poking around blindly because there's no leadership. And I suppose VEKN was supposed to handle the leadership department. If not, then what's the purpose of it, other than lists of players, scores and tournament announcements (however important they may be). > If a design team and/or new cards even exist, of course. > Well, even if it doesn't, please let us know! "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Wow that is a lot of non-information -_- I'm still digesting (or not digesting?) everything that's been posted since my last post... Here's something an official channel from this not-a-design team might address: What is the purpose of designing new cards? A lot of the cards people suggest are "fixes" to something they see wrong with the game. But we have to think about creating new deck strategies or evolving existing strategies. Do we need more basic cards that expand on the base set, or are they all specialized? Also, part of the point about the questions I'm asking, if there is a discussion about how to continue the game (if possible) is that I'd like to at least know what is being said and get involved if that's possible. I'm curious about the design process. I'd rather be in the know than be surprised if there is an official announcement after months/years of backdoor discussion. If the only thing that happens is that some people who are involved in the design of the game and makes them think about it, then I will be satisfied. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > Wow that is a lot of non-information -_- > Agreed. You: "I want access to information kept away from the public". Solution: "Join private discussions." See also: V:EKN Prince-only forum, V:EKN National Coordinator forum Note: I'm a V:EKN critic, not a member privy to the private discussions. (See also, 400+ posts by specific individuals that you can't find in the public forums.) www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/stats

> Adonai wrote: > > > direwolf wrote: > > Wow that is a lot of non-information -_- > > > Agreed. > > You: "I want access to information kept away from the public". > Solution: "Join private discussions." > > See also: V:EKN Prince-only forum, V:EKN National Coordinator forum > > Note: I'm a V:EKN critic, not a member privy to the private discussions. (See also, 400+ posts by specific individuals that you can't find in the public forums.) > > www.vekn.net/index.php/forum/stats > I have to say, I don't want access to information that is kept from the public. I want access to information that is public. It seems there is none. And if my buggering gets in the way of actual progress made, just tell me to shut up Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> direwolf wrote: > What is the purpose of designing new cards? A lot of the cards people suggest are "fixes" to something they see wrong with the game. But we have to think about creating new deck strategies or evolving existing strategies. Do we need more basic cards that expand on the base set, or are they all specialized? > I think you should make a new thread with this text, titled "I'm curious about the design process" and see what everyone, secretly-members of the design team or not, has to say about it. You won't get any of the answers you've asked for from your previous posts in this thread, since you aren't part of the design team, and that means you likely won't receive an "official" answer, but it may be a fun topic. > direwolf wrote: > Also, part of the point about the questions I'm asking, if there is a discussion about how to continue the game (if possible) is that I'd like to at least know what is being said and get involved if that's possible. > What do you mean "about how to continue the game"? If you mean how to attract and retain your player base, there have been topics on that,and you can start a new topic yourself and receive lots and lots of help. If you mean something about printing new cards, well, you aren't going to get any of that information. > direwolf wrote: > I'd rather be in the know than be surprised if there is an official announcement after months/years of backdoor discussion. > Well, you're going to have to join the rest of us in waiting. Patience is a virtue, etc. > direwolf wrote: > If the only thing that happens is that some people who are involved in the design of the game and makes them think about it, then I will be satisfied. > As I said, I am sure that all of the design team reads this forum and is aware of everything you are saying and doing. So they are thinking about your ideas and questions, just like you want them to. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Direwolf, you should look at this recent thread where we discuss exactly what you are asking for, a sort of framework for developing a new expansion: vekn.net/index.php/forum/30-expansion-sets-a-card-ideas/8713-new-expansion-and-card-ideas I have tried to formulate my take on the process that should be used when working on a new expansion. The below is what it looks like so far after comments from the forum. Below each point is inserted people's input in the thread. 1. THEME FOR EXPANSION? e.g. develop WoD background? -- follow existing themes 2. NEW GAME MECHANICS? -- not for now 3. NEW CARDS: crypt and library - any areas that need additions/improvement? any revisions required? -- no revisions. More G5 Sabbat vampires, more G6 vampires, expand research area mechanism, improve trophy mechanism, e.g. expand Bahari mechanism 4. FORMAT AND PRACTICAL STUFF -- size of expansion(20-30?), frequency of publication, production, funding (prepaid by players?), distribution (via princes/direct sale?), status of new cards (promo? unofficial/official?), price, rights to publish new cards. I agree that this should be a sticky and that it would be great if everybody using this forum would comment on this post. So far, there has been no involvement (as far as I know) in this discussion from VEKN. But I think its important that we in the player community discuss and develop our ideas in this area. I assume that any new expansions will be managed by VEKN (and will in any event have to be sanctioned by them), but our input is important - as VTES is now a community driven game, we should all lift together. In my mind, the main obstacle at the moment is rights issues (White Wolf and Wizards of the Coast) - see the quoted thread for my post on this.

KevinM, I dont agree at all with your take on this. I think we have a unique opportunity to harness the combined creativity and intellect of the player community, and I would strongly encourage that that opportunity is used if a new expansion is in the making. Assuming that no other company will take over VTES and print new cards, there will no longer be a commercial structure supporting the production of new cards. I cannot see how anyone except the players themselves can fund the printing of a new edition (see my previous posts on funding and costs in a different thread). If that is so, there needs to be some form of communication and interaction between VEKN and the player community. In my mind, that is the only way to maintain VEKN's authority as card creator instead of White Wolf, and the only way to ensure the buy-in from players across the planet needed to fund and accept the validity of new expansions. VEKN is a great institution for sanctioning new cards and for making the final decisions on how the cards should be worded etc. However, as you see from this forum, there is a lot of creative thought and energy put into the development of new cards by players OUTSIDE VEKN. Aside from being elitist and divisive at a point in time where VTES needs more than ever for the community to stand together, I also think it would be simply a waste not to use that energy and thought in a productive way. I have seen post lamenting the fact that the VEKN people are very busy, and dont have time to reply to forum posts. Thats fine with me and I'll be the first to thank them for the work they put in - but if that is the case, they should let the player community do the legwork like we are doing now (and can I just say, WOW there are some mental people out there doing some mental stuff when it comes to card design - you guys rock and thanks for sharing in this thread...)

> cnislev wrote: > KevinM, I dont agree at all with your take on this. I think we have a unique opportunity to harness the combined creativity and intellect of the player community, and I would strongly encourage that that opportunity is used if a new expansion is in the making. > And who decides what is good and what is bad creativity? Have you SEEN some of those horribly unbalanced cards that are being created by the "player community"? > cnislev wrote: > Assuming that no other company will take over VTES and print new cards, there will no longer be a commercial structure supporting the production of new cards. I cannot see how anyone except the players themselves can fund the printing of a new edition (see my previous posts on funding and costs in a different thread). If that is so, there needs to be some form of communication and interaction between VEKN and the player community. In my mind, that is the only way to maintain VEKN's authority as card creator instead of White Wolf, and the only way to ensure the buy-in from players across the planet needed to fund and accept the validity of new expansions. > Printing new cards would cause Hasbro to sue the VEKN for copyright infringement and violation, so I'm 100% sure that will never, ever happen. Which is why there has been talk of a free PDF set being the way to go. > cnislev wrote: > VEKN is a great institution for sanctioning new cards and for making the final decisions on how the cards should be worded etc. However, as you see from this forum, there is a lot of creative thought and energy put into the development of new cards by players OUTSIDE VEKN. Aside from being elitist and divisive at a point in time where VTES needs more than ever for the community to stand together, I also think it would be simply a waste not to use that energy and thought in a productive way. > Again: who decides what is good and what is bad creativity? The mere existence of energy doesn't mean that it is necessarily productive (see: ADHD) nor does the loss of energy necessarily mean it was wasted. > cnislev wrote: > I have seen post lamenting the fact that the VEKN people are very busy, and dont have time to reply to forum posts. Thats fine with me and I'll be the first to thank them for the work they put in - but if that is the case, they should let the player community do the legwork like we are doing now (and can I just say, WOW there are some mental people out there doing some mental stuff when it comes to card design - you guys rock and thanks for sharing in this thread...) > What do you want the VEKN leadership to respond to? Every single card idea and subsequent modification posted on this forum? What posts should they respond to that they haven't? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

Everyone should just stop making anything for this game. The players who are making an effort to bring new ideas and cards to the game (no matter how good or bad) should stop immediately. The VEKN leadership are slow to lead as we haven't gotten anything from the him/her/them/it. So they should stop too. Everything should just stop....that way we can stop having these roundabout discussions that don't go anywhere. Prince of Puyallup

wow thanks for all the responses and the information... I seem to have stirred some stuff up! I hope it's a good kind of stirring up... Back to the original thought behind why I started this thread: we could use a few stickies. Like that thread cnislev linked? Should be stickied. Also, is there a particular format for submitting cards, and replying with feedback for the cards? I see some conventions forming with what has been posted so far. I've seen some mentions of other people making home cards, but I don't know who they are and where to find other homebrew cards. Could someone who knows more about where to find these on the internet start a list of them and sticky it? I can't count the number of times I've had an "original" idea that someone thought up first that I didn't know about. Don't get me wrong, but I'd volunteer myself to do some organizing if I thought I was qualified. I'm full of questions, not solutions. Independent Futurist. Contrarian (titled, X votes where X is the number of votes as the acting minion.) Target Vitals is always the better combat card.

> KevinM wrote: > > > cnislev wrote: > > KevinM, I dont agree at all with your take on this. I think we have a unique opportunity to harness the combined creativity and intellect of the player community, and I would strongly encourage that that opportunity is used if a new expansion is in the making. > > > And who decides what is good and what is bad creativity? Have you SEEN some of those horribly unbalanced cards that are being created by the "player community"? > > > cnislev wrote: > > Assuming that no other company will take over VTES and print new cards, there will no longer be a commercial structure supporting the production of new cards. I cannot see how anyone except the players themselves can fund the printing of a new edition (see my previous posts on funding and costs in a different thread). If that is so, there needs to be some form of communication and interaction between VEKN and the player community. In my mind, that is the only way to maintain VEKN's authority as card creator instead of White Wolf, and the only way to ensure the buy-in from players across the planet needed to fund and accept the validity of new expansions. > > > Printing new cards would cause Hasbro to sue the VEKN for copyright infringement and violation, so I'm 100% sure that will never, ever happen. Which is why there has been talk of a free PDF set being the way to go. > > > cnislev wrote: > > VEKN is a great institution for sanctioning new cards and for making the final decisions on how the cards should be worded etc. However, as you see from this forum, there is a lot of creative thought and energy put into the development of new cards by players OUTSIDE VEKN. Aside from being elitist and divisive at a point in time where VTES needs more than ever for the community to stand together, I also think it would be simply a waste not to use that energy and thought in a productive way. > > > Again: who decides what is good and what is bad creativity? > > The mere existence of energy doesn't mean that it is necessarily productive (see: ADHD) nor does the loss of energy necessarily mean it was wasted. > > > cnislev wrote: > > I have seen post lamenting the fact that the VEKN people are very busy, and dont have time to reply to forum posts. Thats fine with me and I'll be the first to thank them for the work they put in - but if that is the case, they should let the player community do the legwork like we are doing now (and can I just say, WOW there are some mental people out there doing some mental stuff when it comes to card design - you guys rock and thanks for sharing in this thread...) > > > What do you want the VEKN leadership to respond to? Every single card idea and subsequent modification posted on this forum? What posts should they respond to that they haven't? > I think the key word here is "harness". Players come up with ideas, they get feedback, and VEKN/design team takes it onboard and tweaks/game tests before sanctioning and e.g. printing. This may happen already, but as I've said this should happen openly. If energy and time is limited, and if energy can be harnessed (e.g. in the manner I have mentioned above), then a gain can be made You must know the Hasbro management team and their legal department very well, and you must also be a specialist IP lawyer to come to this conclusion. Even if you are, you should remember that it shouldnt be too difficult to build a structure that would be difficult to sue, and which would in any event have no or few assets against which a lawsuit could be enforced which would make the legal spend very high, not to mention the bad PR from suing a player community that just wants to develop (not to make a profit) a game they love and which they have built through two decades. If I were Hasbro, I would think twice. If on top of that they are given an offer (say x cents per card printed), I would expect them to at least consider it. It is not as black and white as you say. All I would like to see from VEKN would be a general statement about how the development of cards will take place/what their strategy for the game will be in the next couple of years. I would also like them to e.g. approve of sticky threads where players can give their input and opinions on what they would like to see in new expansions, and an assurance that this will be taken into account by VEKN. VEKN needs to maintain its authority and connection to the community. The NCs and princes are not democratically elected (at least not in my country), and neither is VEKN/the design team as I understand it. This may be fine, but then VEKN/the design team needs to gain authority and acceptance by engaging with and involving the community in another way. People like glaswanderer have come up with really cool cards artwork (I would rate most of it top 30% all time VTES) and some good cards. The very minimum that should be done by VEKN would be to recognise this effort, e.g. by the above sticky and public statements.

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> KevinM wrote: > And who decides what is good and what is bad creativity? Have you SEEN some of those horribly unbalanced cards that are being created by the "player community"? > I've seen plenty of very interesting, thematic and (on the paper only, since no one has tried any playtesting yet) balanced cards. Plenty of bad ones, obviously, but I'm not that pessimistic. > Printing new cards would cause Hasbro to sue the VEKN for copyright infringement and violation, so I'm 100% sure that will never, ever happen. Which is why there has been talk of a free PDF set being the way to go. > I suppose you're assuming again. What I would be interested in, is what kinds of modifications or legal announcements should be printed in the cards to make it legal to print them. Just being curious, is all. The .pdf distribution will -most likely- be the best option. But not neccessarily. > Again: who decides what is good and what is bad creativity? > > The mere existence of energy doesn't mean that it is necessarily productive (see: ADHD) nor does the loss of energy necessarily mean it was wasted. > Sooo much bad vibes. I really have a lot of faith in community driven work, and in that some forms of organization is bound to form up eventually. And I could see this happening in VEKN pretty quickly. It's funny, though, to notice that it seems I'm not the only one thinking this. > What do you want the VEKN leadership to respond to? Every single card idea and subsequent modification posted on this forum? What posts should they respond to that they haven't? > You're nibbling on the details. I think you have been answered already: Any piece of information of organization or status would be welcome. And, after the initial invoice, let's just see where things evolve. I really don't think aksing people for immediate answers to every single problem that might arise, or will be on the horizon, is very fruitful. > Also, is there a particular format for submitting cards, and replying with feedback for the cards? I see some conventions forming with what has been posted so far. > I think conventions should be followed and reinforced. > Back to the original thought behind why I started this thread: we could use a few stickies. Like that thread cnislev linked? Should be stickied. > Probably a new submoderator would be in order for this area only? Maybe the admins should be adviced of the matter. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

Thanks for the nod cnislev, I appreciate it. Prince of Puyallup

FWIW, I don't think it's a good idea for the VEKN to create any new-cards at all, unless these cards will be distributed as all previous sets, which seems unlikely. Thing is, I believe that if *new* PDF-printed cards will become tournament-legal all it will do is drive a wedge in the already small community. There *is* a difference between an official company-designed expansion, complete with all bells and whistles and a random bunch of PDF-cards fantasized up by a few die-hard fans in Spain (this is not meant as an attack on the Spanish players by any means, just an exaggeration to get my point accross). What guarantees do we have new cards are community supported? What guarantees do we have the cards are playtested properly? Heck, I don't think we actually agree we even NEED new cards. Will they be tournament legal? And if not, what's the point? I for one wouldn't be interested in playing cards from my printer and would likely stop attending tournaments and sell my valuable cards while they still have that value. I'd keep a few decks to play with friends and that will be that. Others may feel the same. Another thing to consider are the less obvious consequences of one PDF-set: there will be another. And another. And another. They're easy to create and there are probably dozens of people that can churn out 1-2 reasonably balanced cards a week. The forums are a good example of this. Of course, eventually there will be "re-PDF's" of valuable, wanted cards, thus removing the entire "C" from the CCG. Not even mentioning the complete death of trading. I mean, we might as well allow people to play with color-copies of Villein and Summon History at tournaments...

> Izaak wrote: > I mean, we might as well allow people to play with color-copies of Villein and Summon History at tournaments... > And this would be a problem because ... ? If the game isn't being, and isn't going to be, produced commercially, then why exactly shouldn't we allow people to play with duplicate home printed cards? I know I and probably everyone else on this board has spent a lot of money on cards over the years. But I spent that money to have fun, not to compare the size of my collection to that of my neighbours. If home printed cards were tournament legal, it would significantly reduce the entry barrier for new players, and go a long way towards leveling the playing field. At the moment, this is probably too big a step to take. It is something that should definitely be considered for the future though.

> If home printed cards were tournament legal, it would significantly reduce the entry barrier for new players, and go a long way towards leveling the playing field. > Except that card collections are not a limiting factor. New players are shunned away by an extremely complex, confusing set of rules in a card game that is insanely difficult to master AFTER you got the hang of the rules. Staple cards are cheap and plenty. Playgroups give out hundreds if not thousands of cards to new players. No, they will not own any significant amount of Summon Histories and 40 Villeins. You can build a TWD for literally $ 3,- worth of e-bay cards. Thrown in 5-6 boxes of superdiscount boosters from W&N and you're looking at a HUGE pile of playable cards and decks for under €150,-. That's pretty damn cheap in a world where a console game you play for a month costs €59,- If your argument is that not everybody can play Ashur Tablets, Villeins and Summon Histories as has seemingly been the case throughout this forum's existance, well then I disagree everyone SHOULD be able to play those. Limited card collections encourage a more varied and creative metagame as people will still be trying to find new ways to make decks work within the limits of their cardpool. Introduce unlimited cardpools and you will see competitive play turn into 5-10 superdecks with variants inbetween. The best example of this is obviously Magic, where limited cardpools have no meaning because of the existance of 4CL.

> cnislev wrote: > Players come up with ideas, they get feedback, and VEKN/design team takes it onboard and tweaks/game tests before sanctioning and e.g. printing. This may happen already, but as I've said this should happen openly. > I'm not sure that you've made your case as to why card design happening openly is better than card design happening in a closed environment. Could you state your argument clearly for us? > cnislev wrote: > You must know the Hasbro management team and their legal department very well, and you must also be a specialist IP lawyer to come to {the conclusion that Hasbro would sue}. > You're taking money away from a company, using their trademarks and patents, and you don't think that you'll be sued??? > cnislev wrote: > Even if you are, you should remember that it shouldnt be too difficult to build a structure that would be difficult to sue, and which would in any event have no or few assets against which a lawsuit could be enforced which would make the legal spend very high, not to mention the bad PR from suing a player community that just wants to develop (not to make a profit) a game they love and which they have built through two decades. If I were Hasbro, I would think twice. If on top of that they are given an offer (say x cents per card printed), I would expect them to at least consider it. It is not as black and white as you say. > Ahhh I see that you've changed your tune now, and you DO believe that you'll be sued. You must know the Hasbro management team and their legal department very well, and you must also be a specialist IP lawyer to come to that conclusion. Seriously, though. As you seem to feel that it shouldn't be too difficult to build a structure that would be difficult to sue, I suggest that you create that legal structure, then let Johannes Walch know that you are ready to start printing cards, and see what he says. Not that you have to pay any attention to what the head of the VEKN says, since you could just start doing it all on your own, but you've been talking about the community so I figure that you'll try to operate under the community and its leadership that is already solidly in place. > cnislev wrote: > All I would like to see from VEKN would be a general statement about how the development of cards will take place/what their strategy for the game will be in the next couple of years. > If Johannes Walch released a press release that stated something like "The VEKN currently has no specific plan to release official V:TES cards. When we do have a specific plan, we will let the community here know." then would that be the end of it for you until new cards came out? Or would you continue to respond and request more information and ask monthly if the VEKN has any plans for new cards yet? I ask because right now there is one non-official person (me) having a discussion with you and the few others in this thread about this topic, and we're already on page3, and it's been discussed before that the VEKN leadership has real jobs and are doing this out of their spare time, so they likely don't have time to respond to every player's questions. > cnislev wrote: > I would also like them to e.g. approve of sticky threads where players can give their input and opinions on what they would like to see in new expansions, and an assurance that this will be taken into account by VEKN. > You want "an assurance" that every suggestion, opinion, demand, and threat will be taken into account? You are kidding, right? If you're not, please explain to us why taking every suggestion, opinion, demand, and threat of every player, with or without design experience, with any level of V:TES experience, into account would be useful to the construction of appropriately balanced and/or themed cards? Some sort of evidence that this has been a good procedure for a company in the past would be helpful. > cnislev wrote: > The NCs and princes are not democratically elected (at least not in my country),... > If your country has leadership problems, you should bring it to the VEKN leadership. > cnislev wrote: > ...and neither is VEKN/the design team as I understand it. > As I understand it as well. But, unlike you, I trust that the VEKN leadership will elect to the design team the appropriate individuals with the appropriate experience to do an appropriate job in card design, if and when that ever happens. > cnislev wrote: > This may be fine, but then VEKN/the design team needs to gain authority and acceptance by engaging with and involving the community in another way. > The VEKN already has the authority, obviously. They already have *my* acceptance, based on me knowing who they are and what they have said and done in the past. If they don't yet have *your* acceptance, then perhaps you should go back through Google Groups and see what they have said and done in the past. If that's not something you can (or will) do, then you should trust players like me, who have been around for 15+ years, who know each and every member of the VEKN, and trust them to do the right thing. > cnislev wrote: > People like glaswanderer have come up with really cool cards artwork (I would rate most of it top 30% all time VTES) and some good cards. The very minimum that should be done by VEKN would be to recognise this effort, e.g. by the above sticky and public statements. > The very minimum that should be done *in your opinion*. I personally don't think they should do *anything* about fan-based cards, other than Pascal responding to specific rules questions about how a fan-based card would interact within the official game. If Pascal (or whomever) feels that a message should be moved into a 'sticky' position, I'm sure he'll do so. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> Izaak wrote: > Thing is, I believe that if *new* PDF-printed cards will become tournament-legal all it will do is drive a wedge in the already small community. There *is* a difference between an official company-designed expansion, complete with all bells and whistles and a random bunch of PDF-cards fantasized up by a few die-hard fans.... > What is the difference? When WW/CCP ran the game, we had one person designing all the cards. Now, we will have one or more persons designing all the cards. Why does a corporation backing-up that one person mean something to you? Or, are you saying that since it was White Wolf's property, that was ok, and now it isn't? Then how did you feel about WOTC designing cards? How about if Fantasy Flight or Rio Grande bought the rights to V:TES and started designing cards, how would you feel then? > Izaak wrote: > What guarantees do we have new cards are community supported? What guarantees do we have the cards are playtested properly? > What guarantees did you have for the last 15 years? > Izaak wrote: > Heck, I don't think we actually agree we even NEED new cards. > Your agreement isn't necessary for the VEKN to create new cards, just as it wasn't necessary for the last 15 years of expansions that some players didn't want or didn't like the idea of. > Izaak wrote: > Will they be tournament legal? And if not, what's the point? > Who knows? I doubt that the VEKN would waste their time creating non-official non-tournament legal cards. > Izaak wrote: > I for one wouldn't be interested in playing cards from my printer and would likely stop attending tournaments and sell my valuable cards while they still have that value. I'd keep a few decks to play with friends and that will be that. Others may feel the same. > I'll buy your cards. Send me an email with your list and I'll give you a fair price for them. How others would feel isn't the primary determining factor in whether or not new PDF-based cards would get created. Thank god. Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

I have a hope that the VEKN will publish (either by printing actual cards and selling them at cost or for a small profit to be used to support the tournament scene OR by sticking PDFs up and maybe charging people a fee to cover download limits) a new set. There are things in the way; the biggest being Intellectual Property Rights and I wouldn't bet on Hasbro AND CCP not being litigious about it and suing the VEKN. Sure, I would like to know WHO might be on the design team (beyond the obvious person of Pascal Bertrand)... mostly so I can get to know them, know the way they think and see how cards may be developed for the future. I DON'T want to see some of the unbalanced, half-assed, barrow-pushing cards that have been lobbed around the forums (and I'm not saying I'm not immune to a little barrow-pushing as well). There are a number of people who have put up a steady flurry of cards, with very very variable levels of balance, usability and so on. I'm not saying that my opinions on balanced are the only opinions, and neither that others have a monopoly on card balance either... but there have been a lot of really wild cards already put out here as ideas. Would I like to be considered for the design team? Sure, it would be a great honour. I'd love the chance to create for a game that has been a fantastic entertainment for years. I'd love the chance to play Devil's Advocate and have others argue why a card design was balanced/appropriate (even if I already thought so). I'd love to be involved in helping shape the game beyond just playing cards, having ideas and bringing new players into the game. It would be a lot of intellectual and social fun; just like a good VTES game is. Plus, I do think we play the game differently down here in Australia and I'd like to bring some of what we do down here to a more global audience. Do I think I'd seriously get considered? Probably not to be honest. I don't have the big tournament winning history of guys like Ben Peal, Hugh Angseeing, etc, etc, etc. I'd be guessing their names would appear on the "Design Team Nominations" list FAR above mine. Heck, Disco Stu of Melbourne would probably come a long way above mine just based on what he's done with his Kindred of the East Set. I would like to have a list for the Design Team (just to know who they are) and to think that maybe cards created in the forum might spark their interest and attention. But in the end, I like the mystery that comes from the Design Team operating a 'closed shop' like it has in the past. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> What is the difference? When WW/CCP ran the game, we had one person designing all the cards. Now, we will have one or more persons designing all the cards. Why does a corporation backing-up that one person mean something to you? > The difference? Well, for starters this one person did it as his job and got paid doing so. The same person was also very much in touch with the community and had gained the respect and trust of the same community. The VEKN design team, if it even exists, is unknown to the community and has therefore not (yet) built the same respect and trust that Scott had. Instead what we have is a bunch of people "in the know" being "publically secretive" and the rest of us speculating about it. It's not unlike kids teasing each other: "nja nja I know a secret and I won't tell you". Finally, a company behind cards will ensure their printing quality as well as proper distribution. For me, all this that makes a difference. For you it doesn't and you're happy with Damnams hosting a PDF with 10 new cards and Pascal saying "these are tournament legal now". That's all perfectly fine, but it's also where the community gets cut in half. > I'll buy your cards. Send me an email with your list and I'll give you a fair price for them. > I'll keep that in mind for when this actually happens.

> Izaak wrote: > > > What is the difference? When WW/CCP ran the game, we had one person designing all the cards. Now, we will have one or more persons designing all the cards. Why does a corporation backing-up that one person mean something to you? > > > The difference? Well, for starters this one person did it as his job and got paid doing so. The same person was also very much in touch with the community and had gained the respect and trust of the same community. > You mean the people who can't help but critize Villein, Imbued, Ashur Tablets, Una, etc.? > Izaak wrote: > The VEKN design team, if it even exists, is unknown to the community and has therefore not (yet) built the same respect and trust that Scott had. Instead what we have is a bunch of people "in the know" being "publically secretive" and the rest of us speculating about it. > So why all of you are speaking about something that doesn't exist? Wait until VEKN board makes an announcement, if there is any. Until then, it seems such a waste of time. I'm not a big fan of community driven design anyway, because it tend to never finish and noone can make choices. The real question is: do you trust VEKN can help the game? If you don't, just promote the game by yourself by any mean. Otherwise, let them work at whatever they're working at. I think they check this forum and see what is expected (up-to-date rankings please! ) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The VEKN is watching. It doesn't guarantee, though, that Una will get banned in the next couple of days nor that the job that is ongoing with the ratings is finished.

Kevin wrote: "I seriously doubt that any potential new player would come on board simply because the VEKN is developing new cards." I know of players that would be interested in learning and playing the game if they thought there might be new cards printed or older cards reprinted. And there is a Princes' forum? While I am neither a great Prince nor player, I have been both a long time and I've never known about a forum specifically for Princes. :-/ Robert Dudock P.S. Sorry, got tired of reading the whole set of posts and jumped to the part that I was curious about.

> So why all of you are speaking about something that doesn't exist? > Wait until VEKN board makes an announcement, if there is any. Until then, it seems such a waste of time. > This is the bleedin' POINT! No one knows if there is anything out there, and that's what people in general would like to know. I agree, though: The discussion about the nature of said 'design teams' or whatnot are pretty much redundant. The issue is that it would be cool to have a word. Just sayin'. > The VEKN is watching. > Cheers. However - and I don't mean to be rude - but it's not much. Thanks for the wee bit at least. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> Robba wrote: > And there is a Princes' forum? While I am neither a great Prince nor player, I have been both a long time and I've never known about a forum specifically for Princes. :-/ > Yes. www.vekn.net/index.php/vekn-faq > FAQ wrote: > 2.13. I am a Prince but I cannot access the Prince Forum or register sanctioned events. What should I do? > > Contact the Website Coordinator, and he will give you the status of Prince on www.vekn.net and associate your V:EKN number with your user account. >

> Robba wrote: > And there is a Princes' forum? While I am neither a great Prince nor player, I have been both a long time and I've never known about a forum specifically for Princes. :-/ > You are listed as Prince of Davison (Michigan). It is weird that you cannot access the Prince forum . Could you tell me if you can access it via the link I provided? V:EKN Website Coordinator

I don’t want to push this topic too far, but I believe it comes down to the fact of VEKN being the “official” player’s organization for VTES. This is in regards to the way it is organized and the kind of authority the “officials” (should) have or they think they have. In previous days as one or another company was actively promoting and publishing the game, this company had the authority to grant the adjective “official” to one or more person(s). By definition official means “ordered or allowed by those in authority”. “Those” people could be identified easily and they could choose with whom they wanted to work. Currently the situation is different. With White Wolf ceasing the publication of VTES, they clearly stated that they (currently) have no interest to be involved in the promotion, potential growth and future health of VTES. Therefore that they no longer are “those in authority” for me. With the loss of the previously granted “official“ status I believe it is necessary for VEKN to re-establish this status. Being a players organization, the only group “in authority” is it’s members: The players. Therefore my message to those who believe they are in charge (by whatever authority): More transparency, please or you will loose the connection to the player base! • Suggestion: Regular (at least bi-monthly) newsletters on the VEKN homepage. Let the public know what is going on! •Suggestion: Let the players know what VEKN`s long, mid and short term goals are! •Suggestion: Tell us about the ways you (or maybe we all ?!) can achieve the goals. •Suggestion: (Maybe the most concrete) Have regular promotion events. Nothing big, just like storyline started: Have a clan or a sect to be “the one”, make a tiny adjustment to the rules for a certain period of time. Then, let players report on how their deck worked and how they loved/hated it. Look at ideas for casual gamers and get feedback on facebook or wherever . . . ..get people involved on a small AND big scale. Vitel Long term VEKN Prince, “Official” VTES Rules Translator, Tournament organizer, Founding member of VEKN in 1997 and currently in torpor

@KevinM: Rights – what money are we taking away from Hasbro?? Their rights to VTES are gathering dust in a corner until someone buys/licenses them (fat chance?). And if cards are sold on a costs only basis (which I strongly support), then noone will be making any profit from unlawfully using the rights. The potential profit Hasbro might gain from shutting down VTES and having players shift to, say, magic, is speculative at best (would you switch?). That makes any litigation a matter of principle rather than recovering the equivalent of stolen property. On top of that you get the massive cost of running litigation. I know a bit about how management teams and legal departments work *generally* from my work as a lawyer where I advise these people all the time. My point is not that we should do all kinds of weird tricks and fight an epic legal battle. My point is that management and the legal team will appreciate the difficulty and expense of running litigation against what is basically a player community, and the bad PR that might follow together with the limited prospect of recovering compensation for the unlawful use of the rights. Heck, Im probably optimistic about the idea of some sort of agreement with Hasbro and WW, but I am a fan of this game and would love to see new expansions, so am trying to be constructive. Im sure VEKN have thought about this though, so its probably a moot point to discuss. Community involvement in card design – I’m just suggesting a solution to three problems that I see: 1. Reports that VEKN is very busy. Solution: use community effort to assist VEKN 2. Vacuum left by WW’s withdrawal, and VEKN’s need to establish and maintain its authority. Solution: involve player community. 3. Continued player support being crucial for the survival of the game. Solution: involve player community and acknowledge their efforts instead of alienating them. I could also turn your question upside down: what is the advantage of refusing to use community input? I am not talking about VEKN reading all posts, or to consider every screwball idea. I am talking about making_their_work_easier, perhaps something along the following lines: 1. Someone comes up with a card idea and design (already happening in this forum) 2. Idea and design is reviewed by players (already happening) 3. Best card ideas selected on, say, a monthly basis by players (not hapenning, but could easily be done by polls etc.) 4. VEKN acknowledges player community’s monthly suggestion by a short post (like Pascal’s post above). 5. VEKN decides exclusively what cards to develop, arranges beta tests, final sanctioning, publication (I assume that’s what happened previously and now). Players are credited if their design/card idea is used (easily done). The community is made up of players just like the people that constitute VEKN, so there is no reason why a review by the community at large would not shed some light on which ideas are good, and which are bad. Re VEKN establishing/maintaining authority, this point has been developed by Izaak and MarcusVitel above. I think MV sums up quite well: “More transparency, please or you will lose the connection to the player base”. I have only played this game for 10 years, but its still easy to see what great things VEKN/the designers have accomplished. But VEKN is players like you and me. Its not the company who invented the WoD background or the game mechanics. No professionals are employed. I can understand why previously White Wolf might have felt a commercial need to keep confidential the development of new expansions, and their strategy in general, but such commercial considerations no longer apply. Why should non-VEKN players be treated like lesser beings from whom secrets must be kept? Why not transparency? As a player, I am reluctant to wait years for a new expansion in the belief that VEKN will sort it out, just to find out that, say, they could never reach agreement on some point or another, and no new cards will come. In the meantime, scores of players might have left the game for good and the community suffered irreparable damage. If I really wanted to, Im sure I could persuade the Prince of Copenhagen to let me do his job for a year, and gain access to the prince forum. But that’s not the point, it’s the principle of dividing people up when there is no reason for doing so that Im against. I know that e.g. a bi-montly newsletter, or formulation + communication of mid/long term goals will mean more work for busy VEKN people – but then involve more people! There’s a forum full of them right here! Anyway, I think we’ve moved a bit away from the outset of this discussion, which was the creation of a sticky for compiling/structuring/organizing player ideas. I am sending a suggestion to Damnans for such a sticky now.

> cnislev wrote: > @KevinM: > Rights – what money are we taking away from Hasbro?? Their rights to VTES are gathering dust in a corner until someone buys/licenses them (fat chance?). And if cards are sold on a costs only basis (which I strongly support), then no one will be making any profit from unlawfully using the rights. > The printer will. Printer's are in the business of making money, not of donating goods. > cnislev wrote: > 1. Reports that VEKN is very busy. Solution: use community effort to assist VEKN > Wrong solution. If you want to volunteer, volunteer. The "prince" list is dying for your help. Join up now.

> Adonai wrote: > > > cnislev wrote: > > 1. Reports that VEKN is very busy. Solution: use community effort to assist VEKN > > > Wrong solution. > If you want to volunteer, volunteer. > The "prince" list is dying for your help. > Join up now. > I feel everyone who's posting in this forum is volunteering their effort in some way, but perhaps in an unstructured/aimless way. From my understanding at least some of the people posting in this forum agree with this, and this is why we're trying to focus the efforts. Im sure there's lots of work/posts being made in this forum which is already being taken care of by VEKN/the princes/NCs, but with little communication thats difficult to know, which is a waste I think. But sure, good idea. Not being a prince I had no idea that the "prince" list was looking for volunteers. How to volunteer? I have looked at the "Organisational Questions"-Forum ("Got a question about how to run a tournament, how to become a volunteer or, ultimately, how to promote VTES?") - but couldnt see any threads on volunteering. Should I start a thread or contact administrators? I would want to know if I would have to keep secret everything I do as a volunteer and refrain from, say, posting in this forum any more about card development - in which case volunteering doesnt sound very attractive

> cnislev wrote: > But sure, good idea. Not being a prince I had no idea that the "prince" list was looking for volunteers. How to volunteer? I have looked at the "Organisational Questions"-Forum ("Got a question about how to run a tournament, how to become a volunteer or, ultimately, how to promote VTES?") - but couldnt see any threads on volunteering. > Perhaps you were looking for this? www.vekn.net/index.php/vekn-faq/2-volunteers-faq > cnislev wrote: > Should I start a thread or contact administrators? I would want to know if I would have to keep secret everything I do as a volunteer and refrain from, say, posting in this forum any more about card development - in which case volunteering doesnt sound very attractive > As far as I know, there are no secret discussions in the Prince forum. Only matters related to Princes are being discussed there (e.g., how to assing a VEKN number to a new player, how to get prize support, introductions...) V:EKN Website Coordinator

As a Prince I will happily let the wider community know, the Prince Forum is filled with the roughly boring information of registering players for their VEKNs and double checking their domains, debates over what sort of Prize Support there may be available and from whom and Event Organisation (where do we send reports/Archon Files, when are people planning big tournaments, etc, etc, etc). So as far as the Prince Forum goes, we know about as much as you do about what the inner workings of the design team are. If there is a secret, we're not in the loop of the secret. Rather than attempting to lobby the crap out of the VEKN to create a new set of cards... how about either: a) Put your money where your mouth is and create a 150-card set, playtest it, polish it and then put it out in front of everyone (like Disco Stu has with his Kindred of the East set) b) Get on with the business of having more people play VTES in your local area, either as an active passionate player or as a Prince, and let the VEKN sort out card sets on its own timetable letting them address the priorities they've created. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > a) Put your money where your mouth is and create a 150-card set, playtest it, polish it and then put it out in front of everyone (like Disco Stu has with his Kindred of the East set) > It might be more productive to first ask if the VEKN is already planning something and, if not, gauge the community's interest in creating a design team. There's no sense in a dozen unconnected people with their own design goals each working on their own sets. So, my advice is to put your money where your mouth is and start coordinating.

Apparently, they are seeing if it is worth planning something (go to the recent request for potential free art from the community). In the meantime, for those who think that card development needs to be done for the community by the community (and not a pre-chosen Design Team chosen by the VEKN)... go ahead and create it. At worst, that effort will count as a resume for joining the Design Team if and when one exists. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418