Karsh ADV and Imperator

If Karsh ADV is unmerged, and has been named Imperator from the political action, does he have 3 votes for his title and 6 additional votes in a blood hunt referendum? For a total of 9 during a blood hunt referendum? If so, what happens when unmerged ADV Imperator Karsh becomes merged? Does he go down to 6 votes? It seems to me that Karsh merging while already being Imperator from the card, would lose the card title, and gain the imperator from his merged text. Therefore he would lose the additional 3 blood hunt votes from the card title, as Karsh's merged Imperator title does not state that he gets the extra 3 blood hunt votes from the title. If that is the case, would an already merged Karsh becoming Imperator via political action, get 3 votes (Imperator) 3 Blood hunt votes (Imperator) and 3 Blood hunt votes (Karsh ADV text)? Overall I am looking for a merged Karsh with 9 votes during a blood hunt, and I would like to know if the order matters. Gangrel Capacity: 10 Group: 3 Advanced, Camarilla: Karsh may play a Blood Hunt card from your hand or ash heap as a prince. He gets 3 additional votes in blood hunt referendums. He cannot block infernal vampires. [MERGED] Imperator (3 votes): +1 intercept. Imperator [Political Action] Political Action Title. Choose a Camarilla vampire with capacity 8 or more. If this referendum is successful, put this card on the chosen vampire to represent the unique Camarilla title of Imperator (worth 3 votes). This vampire may play a Blood Hunt card from your hand or ash heap as a prince. This vampire gets 3 additional votes in blood hunt referendums.

Karsh would have 3 Votes of his own (Imperator Card and Merged text provide the same title) and 6 votes during a bloodhunt. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

It sure seems like unmerged ADV Karsh would have nine votes in blood hunt referendums if he were given the title via the political action. I wonder what Pascal has to say about this.

No no Jugg, as he is unmerged, he gets twice his +3 votes bonus in blood hunt referendums, plus his 3 votes from the Imperator title... So for me he would have 9 votes in case of a blood hunt referendum. Pentex Board of Directors Prince of Oye Plage Alastor Grand Nord

Misread. Yes Merged (and ADV) Karsh with the Imperator Vote, will have 9 votes during bloodhunts. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

3+3+3 is 9, so advanced (or merged) Karsh with an Imperator would indeed have 9 votes in a blood hunt referendum.

Part of the OP's question has not been answered. I believe that if a vampire receives a justicar title via the vote card whilst in possession of the same vote card, the second one would burn the first. So, the question is whether Karsh (base or adv) having the Imperator card on him would burn it by merging, effectively losing 3 votes during bloodhunt referendums.

> Robert wrote: > Part of the OP's question has not been answered. I believe that if a vampire receives a justicar title via the vote card whilst in possession of the same vote card, the second one would burn the first. So, the question is whether Karsh (base or adv) having the Imperator card on him would burn it by merging, effectively losing 3 votes during bloodhunt referendums. > I was thinking about this too. I think if he has the vote card and then is merged, he would burn the card because the text would take precedence. But if he is merged, then given the title, I think he would still burn the vote card because he already has the title (similar to your example above). However, the title in his text is the same in name as that given by the political action but it is different in the abilities it gives. I wonder what Pascal will say.

> TorranceCircle wrote: > > > Robert wrote: > > Part of the OP's question has not been answered. I believe that if a vampire receives a justicar title via the vote card whilst in possession of the same vote card, the second one would burn the first. So, the question is whether Karsh (base or adv) having the Imperator card on him would burn it by merging, effectively losing 3 votes during bloodhunt referendums. > > > I was thinking about this too. I think if he has the vote card and then is merged, he would burn the card because the text would take precedence. But if he is merged, then given the title, I think he would still burn the vote card because he already has the title (similar to your example above). However, the title in his text is the same in name as that given by the political action but it is different in the abilities it gives. > > I wonder what Pascal will say. > Why ? Imperator is just unique camarilla title worth 3 votes with no additional rules, he gain 3 votes in blood hunt via political action card text and 3 votes from his own card text. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> But if he is merged, then given the title, I think he would still burn the vote card because he already has the title > No, he would lose the title that his merged ability gives and then gain the title from the card and its ability to gain 3 additional bloodhunt votes.

> Pascal wrote: > 3+3+3 is 9, so advanced (or merged) Karsh with an Imperator would indeed have 9 votes in a blood hunt referendum. > Wait let me get this straight; Advanced Karsh with an Imperator political card on him, during a blood hunt gets: Imperator Unique Title: 3 votes Imperator special card text: 3 votes Karsh Advanced special card text: 3 votes 3+3+3 = 9 votes. That seems somewhat obvious. Then you merge Karsh, giving him the unique title of Imperator. To receive a title, you first have to give up any titles you have; in this case the Imperator title from the card on him. However, I don't believe you need to actually burn the card too. So then we get: Imperator Title (from Karsh): 3 votes Special Text from the Imperator political card (since that stays and merely says "this vampire" anyway): 3 votes Karsh advanced special text: 3 votes Of course, when you actually have to burn the card you should lose the 3 votes from the political card. This could lead to interesting scenarios. For example, I have a vampire with the Imperator title (6 votes in bloodhunts), which gets contested. I give up the title, but the card technically stays so I get to keep my 3 additional votes in bloodhunts. I suppose somewhat similar to how Gratiano's cardtext works. amirite?

Nope. These days the title-granting cards have all been rewritten so that the title IS the card. So if you lose the title, you lose the card. -- salem

Robert Scythe wrote: Part of the OP's question has not been answered. I believe that if a vampire receives a justicar title via the vote card whilst in possession of the same vote card, the second one would burn the first. So, the question is whether Karsh (base or adv) having the Imperator card on him would burn it by merging, effectively losing 3 votes during bloodhunt referendums. TorranceCircle wrote: I was thinking about this too. I think if he has the vote card and then is merged, he would burn the card because the text would take precedence. But if he is merged, then given the title, I think he would still burn the vote card because he already has the title (similar to your example above). However, the title in his text is the same in name as that given by the political action but it is different in the abilities it gives. I wonder what Pascal will say. > Lech wrote: > Why ? > Imperator is just unique camarilla title worth 3 votes with no additional rules, he gain 3 votes in blood hunt via political action card text and 3 votes from his own card text > > Robert wrote: > No, he would lose the title that his merged ability gives and then gain the title from the card and its ability to gain 3 additional bloodhunt votes. . > > salem wrote: > Nope. These days the title-granting cards have all been rewritten so that the title IS the card. So if you lose the title, you lose the card. > Now I am really confused. So I have Karsh unmerged. I give him the imperator title via the political action card. I then merge him. He becomes the imperator replacing the imperator title given by the political action card. Since the title given by the card is gone then, isn't the card gone as well? And by default the ability from the card gone as well?

If you have Unmerged Karsh, give him the Imperator Vote Title and then Merge Karsh you will lose the Imperator Vote Card since he will gain the new title Imperator from merging which will replace his previous title of Imperator Vote Card. This gives him 6 votes in a Bloodhunt referendum. If you have Merged Karsh and give him the Imperator Vote Title, Karsh would lose his Merged Imperator and gain Imperator Vote Title which results in him having 9 votes in a Bloodhunt Referendum. All of this assuming that when you gain a title you already have, that you lose the previous title. E.g. Justicar to Prince = lose old, gain new. Prince of Berlin to Prince of Berlin = lose old Prince of Berlin to gain new Prince of Berlin. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

I think your last paragraph is wrong, juggers. And also not too relevant. If you are the Prince of Berlin and gain the Prince of Berlin title, you lose your old Berlin title, and gain the new Berlin title. -- salem

> Now I am really confused. So I have Karsh unmerged. I give him the imperator title via the political action card. I then merge him. He becomes the imperator replacing the imperator title given by the political action card. Since the title given by the card is gone then, isn't the card gone as well? And by default the ability from the card gone as well? > Yes and yes, you seem to have no confusion. > I think your last paragraph is wrong, juggers. And also not too relevant. If you are the Prince of Berlin and gain the Prince of Berlin title, you lose your old Berlin title, and gain the new Berlin title. > It sounds like you are only repeating what he said, making his statement correct and relevant to the topic at hand since we are determining if Karsh loses his repeated title (through merging or gaining the Imperator title card when the other exists).

> Robert wrote: > Part of the OP's question has not been answered. > Ah, yes, thanks. > MSummers wrote: > If Karsh ADV is unmerged, and has been named Imperator from the political action, does he have 3 votes for his title and 6 additional votes in a blood hunt referendum? For a total of 9 during a blood hunt referendum? > Correct. > MSummers wrote: > If so, what happens when unmerged ADV Imperator Karsh becomes merged? Does he go down to 6 votes? > He still has 3 votes, but down from 9 to 6 in Blood Hunt referendums, yes. As all Title cards, Imperator is burned if the holder gets a new title. > MSummers wrote: > If that is the case, would an already merged Karsh becoming Imperator via political action, get 3 votes (Imperator) 3 Blood hunt votes (Imperator) and 3 Blood hunt votes (Karsh ADV text)? > Yes.

True question is, Why would you play Imperator card in Karsh ADV deck ? Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

Thank you all for the replies. > Lech wrote: > True question is, Why would you play Imperator card in Karsh ADV deck ? > That one card is worth 3 extra votes in a blood hunt. If one plans on using Veles' Hunt, along with Bernard the Scourge, and regaining pool by way of Abactor, I think those 3 extra votes will be very good to have.

Pascal, Karsh^'s text refers to the card titled 'Blood Hunt', and not "blood hunt"-type cards, correct? Kevin M., Prince of Las Vegas "Know your enemy and know yourself; in one-thousand battles you shall never be in peril." -- Sun Tzu, *The Art of War* "Contentment...Complacency...Catastrophe!" -- Joseph Chevalier Please visit VTESville daily! vtesville.myminicity.com/ Facebook: www.facebook.com/groups/129744447064017

> KevinM wrote: > Pascal, > Karsh^'s text refers to the card titled 'Blood Hunt', and not "blood hunt"-type cards, correct? > Correct. groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/12d20246a3551109 Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

if he has a card "placeholder" that grants him the title and he gets another one, the card is burned, (so no +3 votes from cardtext)and if he has a title (by minion cardtext) already and gains a card "placeholder" for a title, he forfeits his (minion cardtext) title and receive the one in the card. But his minion cardtext still aplies, so +3 from himself and +3 from imperator card, only if he was already an Imperator and then gained the card. The problem here is that the card "placeholder" for a title is burned if the minion having it gains another title, but his (minion) own cardtext is not erased by the Imperator card placeholder. By the way his +3 votes on blood hunts is not attached to his title as is on the Imperator Card.