Name: Endure through Spirits
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Fortitude/Necromancy
[for][nec] This vampire gains an amount of blood equal to the amount he or she has lost to damage during this round of combat. The opposing vampire can't gain blood from a Taste of Vitae. A vampire may play only one Endure through Spirits each round.
[FOR][NEC] As above, and prevent 1 damage.
A new option for our Giovanni FOR/NEC friends.
It gives access to full "prevent" to vampires with both inferior level, though it won't prevent you from going to torpor if you take too much damage.
The timing is a bit tricky because it can be played anytime (except at superior), either after an Outside the Hourglass, a (first) strike or at the end of the round.
Is it crappy?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I would definitely add - not usable by a vampire going to torpor, and change opposing vampire can't gain blood from taste of vitae to no vampire may gain blood from taste of vitae.
That way, it prevents you from double - tasting (you keep yours and taste opposing vampire's blood).
But, apart form that, i like it
> Pendargon wrote:
> I would definitely add - not usable by a vampire going to torpor
>
Sure.
> Pendargon wrote:
> and change opposing vampire can't gain blood from taste of vitae to no vampire may gain blood from taste of vitae.
>
> That way, it prevents you from double - tasting (you keep yours and taste opposing vampire's blood).
>
It's supposed to be an alternate weaker form of prevent (because it won't work against too much damage or aggravated), I don't see why you couldn't taste, just like you can Soak and taste the blood from the opposing minion.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Pendargon wrote:
> I would definitely add - not usable by a vampire going to torpor, and change opposing vampire can't gain blood from taste of vitae to no vampire may gain blood from taste of vitae.
>
> That way, it prevents you from double - tasting (you keep yours and taste opposing vampire's blood).
>
> But, apart form that, i like it
>
Change text to: both minions can't gain blood by playing cards or effects this round. (effects like Ossian hability or any other for example)
Fernando Cesar - Sydnelson
LackeyCCG and OCTGN VtES Mantainer
Prince of Rio de Janeiro
Powerbase Rio de Janeiro
> Sydnelson wrote:
>
> > Pendargon wrote:
> > I would definitely add - not usable by a vampire going to torpor, and change opposing vampire can't gain blood from taste of vitae to no vampire may gain blood from taste of vitae.
> >
> > That way, it prevents you from double - tasting (you keep yours and taste opposing vampire's blood).
> >
> > But, apart form that, i like it
> >
> Change text to: both minions can't gain blood by playing cards or effects this round. (effects like Ossian hability or any other for example)
>
And here, obviously: "Neither vampire can gain blood --" And, if you really want to nullify Ossydog, "Neither minion --" should be in order.
About the card itself - I dunno. Pretty weird a card. I'll let others do the talking.
"Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!"
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> Sydnelson wrote:
>
> > Pendargon wrote:
> > I would definitely add - not usable by a vampire going to torpor, and change opposing vampire can't gain blood from taste of vitae to no vampire may gain blood from taste of vitae.
> >
> > That way, it prevents you from double - tasting (you keep yours and taste opposing vampire's blood).
> >
> > But, apart form that, i like it
> >
> Change text to: both minions can't gain blood by playing cards or effects this round. (effects like Ossian hability or any other for example)
>
I may repeat my self, but there's no "double-tasting" problem.
You regain the blood you lost (and the opposing minion can "taste" it).
You may play Taste of Vitae to gain the opposing vampire's blood (just as if you had prevented, then tasted).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The problem I think people have with it, is that it is basically replacing two cards.
It functions basically as either a Taste or a Prevent all the time. So where most decks would either have a prevents or tastes, this acts as either card.
Plus it seems to be designed exclusively for Harbringers of Skulls (and maybe for the Tough Giovanni) and realistically don't they already have enough effective prevent and blood management?
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> The problem I think people have with it, is that it is basically replacing two cards.
>
> It functions basically as either a Taste or a Prevent all the time. So where most decks would either have a prevents or tastes, this acts as either card.
>
Absolutely not. Re-read the card. You regain the blood you lost, not the blood the opposing minion lost.
Eg.
A (3 blood) enter combat with B (3 blood). A strikes for 3, B strikes for 1. A loses 1 blood (2). B loses 3 blood (0 blood). B plays ETS at inferior, regaining his 3 blood lost. A can't taste.
At that point B could taste A's 1 blood lost.
Compared with
A (3 blood) enter combat with B (3 blood). A strikes for 3, B strikes for 1. A loses 1 blood (2). B plays Soak and loses 0 blood (3 blood). A could taste for 0.
At that point B could taste A's 1 blood lost.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
The idea itself is interesting, letting you prevent unless you would go to torpor. The fact that the damage would be successfully inflicted opens up new options compared to regular prevent (apart for the whole taste discussion). For example cards like basilisks touch, cobra fangs, disarm and aggravated damage would have a greater effect but on the other side cards like masochism, ecstatic agony, lessons in the steel(very harbinger friendly) and to a lesser degree blood of acid and sympathetic agony could allow abuse of the card. Some tweaking could be in order (not counting the damage as successful possibly).
Personally I don't see the need for barring tastes in any direction, especially for the 'preventing' minion.
Lidingö Scourge
> Louhi wrote:
> but on the other side cards like masochism, ecstatic agony, lessons in the steel(very harbinger friendly) and to a lesser degree blood of acid and sympathetic agony could allow abuse of the card. Some tweaking could be in order (not counting the damage as successful possibly).
>
I didn't thought about this kind of cards but I think that being able to "abuse" Masochism is not a bad thing
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Since it requires some setup for those cards maybe I should say synergy instead. Perhaps no restriction is needed.
What I find interesting about it is that it would work better for larger cap vampires since they have more blood to take from but a higher cap vampire is more important, would you want to gamble using this rather than reliable prevent?
Also some cards and effects that are unpreventable, like psychic assault and superior drawing out the beast, would be 'prevented' from this card, adding a new strength to it.
A last thought is were this card would shine. My first thought was a samedi (second to harbingers in number of for/nec) since thanatosis tends to be rather blood intense, throw in a few masochisms and make the prevents into this and you have more or more persistent reanimated corpses (or some other cards would be playable, actually transfusion would work nice under those conditions).
Lidingö Scourge
Here is where the card is broken, just are simple examples of how this card allows large-caps to completely crap all over Cel-based combat.
The current situation
A vampire with rushes a 10-cap. The vampire declares a strike (let's say .44 Magnum @ Long) for 2 damage. The 10-cap needs to prevent this strike. They can either, play one card to prevent this one strike, take the damage or potentially play Superior Mettle (and hope there won't be additional strikes) or Rolling with the Punches (and hope combat won't continue to another round). In either the Rolling with the Punches or the Superior Mettle version, they come out of it 1 blood less (assuming no Taste of Vitae is played or similar by the 10-cap).
Introducing this card
A vampire with and a .44 Magnum rushes a full 10-cap. The vampire moves to long and shoots for 2 with the gun. The 10-cap takes the damage. The vampire then spends 1 blood to gain 2 additional strikes, for 2 each, making the total damage dealt equal 6. The 10-cap takes the damage. At the end of the round, the 10-cap plays one card which returns them to their previous amount of blood. So for 1 card, the 10-cap has effectively cancelled/prevented three strikes for no blood cost.
This card even gets around unpreventable damage (Weather Control), environmental damage (Crows, Ghouls with Guns, Drawing out the Beast) and renders them nearly invulnerable to anything BUT big-hit aggravated damage.
It gets even better if you're planning to use it in a Giovanni Rush Deck since you never need to worry about playing taste, since this card effectively ensures you never lose blood you don't spend. Trap + WWS and this card result in you never having to worry about going to torpor, just sending the other minion down and then Freak Drive and rush some other poor chump.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Here is where the card is broken, just are simple examples of how this card allows large-caps to completely crap all over Cel-based combat.
>
you mean "vampires with a lot of blood", not large cap.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Introducing this card
> A vampire with and a .44 Magnum rushes a full 10-cap. The vampire moves to long and shoots for 2 with the gun. The 10-cap takes the damage. The vampire then spends 1 blood to gain 2 additional strikes, for 2 each, making the total damage dealt equal 6. The 10-cap takes the damage. At the end of the round, the 10-cap plays one card which returns them to their previous amount of blood. So for 1 card, the 10-cap has effectively cancelled/prevented three strikes for no blood cost.
>
Yeah. This is the best case scenario.
But if the vampire has 5 blood or less, like 90% of the time during a game, it ends in torpor empty and this card is useless.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> This card even gets around unpreventable damage (Weather Control), environmental damage (Crows, Ghouls with Guns, Drawing out the Beast) and renders them nearly invulnerable to anything BUT big-hit aggravated damage.
>
As long as you keep enough blood, and that no damage is aggravated. Note that Apparition does the same thing, Soak prevents all you said except unpreventable.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> It gets even better if you're planning to use it in a Giovanni Rush Deck since you never need to worry about playing taste, since this card effectively ensures you never lose blood you don't spend.
>
Like prevention.
>
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Trap + WWS and this card result in you never having to worry about going to torpor
>
??? Please explain, I don't see how it will help you not going to torpor if you start with low blood, even if you play one each round, and once again Apparition or Horrid Form seems better.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Yeah. This is the best case scenario.
> But if the vampire has 5 blood or less, like 90% of the time during a game, it ends in torpor empty and this card is useless.
>
4 blood tbc, magnumx3 deals 6 damage, this card prevents 1.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
> Lech wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Yeah. This is the best case scenario.
> > But if the vampire has 5 blood or less, like 90% of the time during a game, it ends in torpor empty and this card is useless.
> >
> 4 blood tbc, magnumx3 deals 6 damage, this card prevents 1.
>
At superior, correct.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Which is entirely my point. This card is strictly better than Rolling with the Punches.
My point with the Trap + WWS and this card is simple: If you're playing rush combat, you're no doubt likely to be rushing vampires while you have a large amount of blood (rushing into combat with low blood is suicidal).
The level of durability for a full large-cap is far greater than regular prevent, since this card specifically reverses the effects of unpreventable damage. That is where it is broken. It is also free, which even when compared with Rolling with the Punches is significantly better.
Apparition and Horrid Form both cost, and provide AT MOST 2 prevent (each). This card can potentially provide 11 effective prevent every single round for no blood cost and a single card per round.
So yes, again Ankha, I would have to say that your card concept is too powerful.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Which is entirely my point. This card is strictly better than Rolling with the Punches.
>
Wrong. Rolling can save you from going to topror. This card doesn't.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> My point with the Trap + WWS and this card is simple: If you're playing rush combat, you're no doubt likely to be rushing vampires while you have a large amount of blood (rushing into combat with low blood is suicidal).
>
What an empty argument. It is wrong, especially if you play prevent, dodge, or the opposing minion isn't a fighter. Otherwise, fight decks wouldn't rush very often. Vampires doesn't stay at max blood, especially vampires that tend to enter combat often.
And you didn't explain why you wouldn't go to torpor during the following rounds. And what a WWS has to do with this?
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> The level of durability for a full large-cap is far greater than regular prevent, since this card specifically reverses the effects of unpreventable damage. That is where it is broken.
>
I wouldn't say broken. I'd say "interesting"; givent its drawbacks.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> It is also free, which even when compared with Rolling with the Punches is significantly better.
>
I wouldn't say "significantly better". It can be better is some cases, and worse in others. It requires an additional discipline compared with RwtP. Maybe it should cost 1 blood though to keep it in line with "prevent all" effects.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Apparition and Horrid Form both cost, and provide AT MOST 2 prevent (each). This card can potentially provide 11 effective prevent every single round for no blood cost and a single card per round.
>
"Every single round" if you play it every single round. Apparition and Horrid Form lasts for the combat, and can be easily free.
And the fact that it is "11" is irrelevant. Rolling with the Punches can prevent 11 damage and Taste of Vitae can make you gain 11 blood each round. Wow! 11!
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> So yes, again Ankha, I would have to say that your card concept is too powerful.
>
I'm not convinced at all.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> Name: Endure through Spirits
> Cardtype: Combat
> Discipline: Fortitude/Necromancy
> [for][nec] This vampire gains an amount of blood equal to the amount he or she has lost to damage during this round of combat. The opposing vampire can't gain blood from a Taste of Vitae. A vampire may play only one Endure through Spirits each round.
> [FOR][NEC] As above, and prevent 1 damage.
>
Jugger, this card last just one round.
Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.
I would maybe tweak it a little to take the above remarks into account
Name: Endure through Spirits
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Fortitude/Necromancy
Not usable by a vampire going into torpor or being burned.
[for][nec] This vampire gains an amount of blood equal to the amount he or she has lost to damage during this round of combat. The blood regained doesn't count as lost for the opposing minion. A vampire may play only one Endure through Spirits each round.
[FOR][NEC] As above, and prevent 1 damage.
Cost set to 1 to make it in line with the existing "prevent all" cards, and the restriction text to make it work as intended (regain the blood only if still ready, and Ossian can't taste neither).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
So now the opposing minion, who has realistically ACTUALLY punched a bunch of blood of the minion gets nothing for that effort?
If you want it to actually prevent, then just make it a prevent card. Seems nuts to make a card that basically does prevent damage that doesn't 'prevent' but does some other long complicated process to do the same thing.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> So now the opposing minion, who has realistically ACTUALLY punched a bunch of blood of the minion gets nothing for that effort?
>
Please read and think twice before posting nonsense (it's not the first time). Nothing has changed between the previous version and this one, except the wording so it includes both Taste of Vitae AND Ossian (and nothing else, I checked, unelss I missed something at which point I'd gladly be corrected.)
And yes, life is cruel. A vampire who ACTUALLY punched for 10 may see this damage prevented by ONE Skin of Steel! Or regained by EtS.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
It's not nonsense Ankha. Your card wants to prevent without actually preventing. It wants to nerf Taste of Vitae the same way Prevent does, without preventing.
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flies like a duck... then maybe its actually a duck.
Just make it a prevent card.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> It's not nonsense Ankha. Your card wants to prevent without actually preventing. It wants to nerf Taste of Vitae the same way Prevent does, without preventing.
>
> If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck and flies like a duck... then maybe its actually a duck.
>
> Just make it a prevent card.
>
A bleed for 3 causes a 3 pool loss.
An Enticement causes a 3 pool loss.
Why on earth didn't they make it a bleed card? Who wants new options? Bleeding is right! Preventing is right! Discards those pale imitations!
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> It's not nonsense Ankha.
>
It is your "so now" that was nonsense, because it suggested something had changed between the version with the previous wording and the one with the last wording. And yet it was the same, leading me to the suspicion that either you skim through the posts or you answer too quickly to them.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Ankha, you didn't even read mine.
Enticement is not a 'bleed card', just in the same way that KRC is not a bleed card.
The card you want to create does this:
- Leaves the vampire on the same blood they had before the combat began
- "Prevents" 1 damage (potentially stopping agg-poke)
It seems to be some attempt to create Rolling with the Punches instead of just . I can't really see a reason to print this card instead of reprinting Rolling with the Punches; they are functionally identical and Rolling has an acceptable cost for its benefit.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Ankha, you didn't even read mine.
>
> Enticement is not a 'bleed card', just in the same way that KRC is not a bleed card.
>
Indeed. There are slightly different just as EtS is slightly different from plain prevention (see below).
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> The card you want to create does this:
> - Leaves the vampire on the same blood they had before the combat began
> - "Prevents" 1 damage (potentially stopping agg-poke)
>
> It seems to be some attempt to create Rolling with the Punches instead of just . I can't really see a reason to print this card instead of reprinting Rolling with the Punches;
>
If you see the reason to print Enticement instead of another bleed card, you should see the reason to print EtS instead of Rolling w/ the Punches.
Enticement, for instance, allows a vampire to bleed, untap, and make another pool damage different from bleeding. Plus the pool damage for enticement can't be deflected. BUT you can't bleed anymore afterwards.
The same way, EtS offers a kind of prevention, that allows things that aren't possible with Rolling with the Punches:
- it "prevents" unpreventable damage
- it works with Masochism, Ecstatic Agony and the like
BUT
- it won't prevent you from going to torpor if you take too much damage
- it doesn't work against 1 agg (at inferior) or 2 agg (at superior)
So it's not "just like" Rolling with the Punches.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> they are functionally identical and Rolling has an acceptable cost for its benefit.
>
Not "functionally identical" for the reasons above.
Maybe it's the cost that troubles you? I increased it to 1 blood to match RwtP, SoSteel, SupMettle etc.
Maybe at superior it should only prevent 1 non-aggravated damage.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director