Name: Preacher
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Dominate & Presence
+1 stealth action. Requires an anarch.
[dom] Make a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire anarch (and Independent).
[DOM] Unique. Put this card on this anarch and untap him or her at the end of the turn. As a +1 stealth action, this anarch may use the [dom] ability above.
Can turn your vampires or the other's Methuselah anarch. Opens new options for decks expecting the other methuselah to have Anarch (Public ennemy, Camarilla segregation...)
Balanced? If not why?
Interesting? If not why?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I like the Idèa. I just don't like that it is a Ventrue card. I would prefer that it was a threeway-keystone kine type of card. Like this
Preacher
Req Anarch
and/or and/or Make a younger non-anarch, non-titled vampire anarch. Do not replace until your discardphase. If using , the action is at +1 stealth. If using , you untap at the end of turn. If using Unique. Put this card on this anarch and untap him or her at the end of the turn. As a +1 stealth action, this anarch may use the ability above.
I don't know. this was not an ideal card. But i realy like the consept of making other vampires Anarch, like Black Hand vampires may.
Originally, it was a disciplineless action. I thought that making it PRE+DOM was more inline with those disciplines and would make it a little less powerful. But maybe was it balanced when disciplineless?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I don't like the ability to be able to make other peoples vampires anarch without them being able to get rid of it later.
I'd suggest at basic putting it on an opponents vampire with an option for them to burn it as an action, at superior putting it on your own vampire to allow him to make your own vampires anarch.
Also, for balance it should probably have either a cost, zero default stealth, or both. Both is probably too much, but I'd suggest testing with cost 1 blood as a +1 stealth action, or with cost zero as a zero stealth action.
For disciplines, pre/pot maybe? I think it's more in character for Brujah/!Brujah than for Ventrue. Disciplines would be too strong.
Edit: or how about
Name: Preacher
Cardtype: Action
Requires an anarch.
+1 stealth action. A ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire you control becomes anarch and independent.
Put this card on a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire controlled by another methuselah, you still control this card. The vampire with this card is anarch. The vampire with this card may burn it as a D action that costs 1 blood.
+1 stealth action. Unique. Put this card on this anarch and untap him or her at the end of the turn. Once per turn this anarch may use the ability above.
Edit again: the should use a counter instead of putting the card on the vampire to not obstruct the uniqueness of the ability.
Choose a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire controlled by another methuselah, and put a Preacher counter on them. A vampire with a Preacher counter is anarch. A vampire may burn their own preacher counter as a D action that costs 1 blood.
I'm not sure the phrase 'Preacher counter' doesn't really flow well, but you know what I mean? Also, I'm not sure who controls a 'counter' by default.
> Mael wrote:
> I'm not sure the phrase 'Preacher counter' doesn't really flow well, but you know what I mean? Also, I'm not sure who controls a 'counter' by default.
>
Anarch counters do exist, and would fit the role.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Mael wrote:
> > I'm not sure the phrase 'Preacher counter' doesn't really flow well, but you know what I mean? Also, I'm not sure who controls a 'counter' by default.
> >
> Anarch counters do exist, and would fit the role.
>
Except that anarch counters have a pre-defined purpose, and do not include an intrinsic way to burn the counter.
> Mael wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > Mael wrote:
> > > I'm not sure the phrase 'Preacher counter' doesn't really flow well, but you know what I mean? Also, I'm not sure who controls a 'counter' by default.
> > >
> > Anarch counters do exist, and would fit the role.
> >
> Except that anarch counters have a pre-defined purpose, and do not include an intrinsic way to burn the counter.
>
You lack some imagination and wording.
Put an anarch counter on a ready younger non-titled, non-anarch vampire controlled by another Methuselah. That vampire becomes anarch (and Independent). That vampire may burn this counter as an action that costs 1 blood.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I'd make it:
Put an anarch counter on a ready younger non-Anarch non-titled vampire as a action. That vampire becomes Anarch (and Independent). That vampire may remove the counter as a +1 stealth undirected action.
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> I'd make it:
>
> Put an anarch counter on a ready younger non-Anarch non-titled vampire as a action. That vampire becomes Anarch (and Independent). That vampire may remove the counter as a +1 stealth undirected action.
>
"Anarch" should be "anarch" (no uppercase).
There is no need to indicate that the action is undirected, because the action taken by the vampire to remove his or her counter is "directed" to him/herself, meaning it's undirected.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I've found Anarch Revolts to be pretty good at encouraging vampires to go anarch, without necessarily forcing them to do so. It's a very interesting card!
This Preacher card idea just seems kind of annoying for the target, while being an inefficient use of actions for whoever's playing it. Instead of giving methuselahs an interesting choice, it brute-forces the issue in a dull way. And it's weak. Yech.
Actually the way you had it written before suggested that I would need to action the minion that played Preacher, not the counter. Plus it seems silly to not make it so that the minion with the counter is the one to remove the counter; unless you meant to make it "any minion may remove the counter as a action".
Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418
> Haze wrote:
> This Preacher card idea just seems kind of annoying for the target, while being an inefficient use of actions for whoever's playing it. Instead of giving methuselahs an interesting choice, it brute-forces the issue in a dull way. And it's weak. Yech.
>
The thing is, it should be strong enough to be playable as a way of making your own vampires anarch (I think it is). The ability to make other people anarch is secondary, and can be used to help prevent the wrong person getting ousted by your anarch revolts, or to mess up a Black Hand or Aye/Orun deck that insists on leaving its key vampires not-anarch. The latter is why it needs to have a burn clause.
> Juggernaut1981 wrote:
> Actually the way you had it written before suggested that I would need to action the minion that played Preacher, not the counter. Plus it seems silly to not make it so that the minion with the counter is the one to remove the counter; unless you meant to make it "any minion may remove the counter as a action".
>
A action against the methuselah who played the Preacher is how I imagined it. It also works as an undirected action though, and is less card text and means not having to care about who's counter it is, so is probably better overall.
> Mael wrote:
>
> > Haze wrote:
> > This Preacher card idea just seems kind of annoying for the target, while being an inefficient use of actions for whoever's playing it. Instead of giving methuselahs an interesting choice, it brute-forces the issue in a dull way. And it's weak. Yech.
> >
> The thing is, it should be strong enough to be playable as a way of making your own vampires anarch (I think it is).
>
There are better and faster ways of going anarch. it's weaker than "Go Anarch", and nobody uses that one.
>
> The ability to make other people anarch is secondary, and can be used to help prevent the wrong person getting ousted by your anarch revolts,
>
cornercase, since they can go anarch themselves. maybe you save them 1 pool, sometimes.
>
> or to mess up a Black Hand or Aye/Orun deck that insists on leaving its key vampires not-anarch. The latter is why it needs to have a burn clause.
>
then it's just annoying at most, and they'll take the action to go un-anarch if needed. though actually, Black Hand vampires don't care if they're anarch, and it's hard to target a younger vampire with Orun...
why not just bleed for 1 instead of using this card
Maybe the card was nerfed to much to become very useful.
First version was the following, but I found it too powerful.
Name: Preacher
Cardtype: Action
+1 stealth action. Requires an anarch.
Put this card on this anarch and untap him or her at the end of the turn. During your untap phase, you may burn 1 blood to choose a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire. He or she becomes anarch (and Independent).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Haze wrote:
> There are better and faster ways of going anarch. it's weaker than "Go Anarch", and nobody uses that one.
>
I disagree, at it's about on a par, different (as Blooding and Mustajib are different from each other), and lacking the untap. At superior it's more akin to a minion based version of Seattle Committee or Twilight Camp. Also, I have seen "Go Anarch" played, as has the TWDA.
>
> > The ability to make other people anarch is secondary, and can be used to help prevent the wrong person getting ousted by your anarch revolts,
> >
> cornercase, since they can go anarch themselves. maybe you save them 1 pool, sometimes.
>
It's not cornercase as they are would both be elements of the same deck so are under your control when deckbuilding. People play with Boons for pretty much the same purpose.
>
> > or to mess up a Black Hand or Aye/Orun deck that insists on leaving its key vampires not-anarch. The latter is why it needs to have a burn clause.
> >
> then it's just annoying at most, and they'll take the action to go un-anarch if needed. though actually, Black Hand vampires don't care if they're anarch, and it's hard to target a younger vampire with Orun...
>
No, but vampires who want to become black hand do, as do BH vampires who want to be Abbot. Also, it's quite easy to target a younger vampire with 1 or 2 Orun, and if the card prevented him ever becoming Laibon again that's all he'd ever get. And those are just the first two sect based strategies I thought of, probably not the only ones.
I'm not saying that you would include the card for it's ability to mess with such decks, but it's an added bonus on a card that you include in a deck to make your own guys anarch.
>
> why not just bleed for 1 instead of using this card
>
Why not just play Malk stealth bleed? Some people like a little variety. Apart from that, I really can't see how a card to make your guys anarch is comparable to bleeding for 1 as an action.
> Ankha wrote:
> Maybe the card was nerfed to much to become very useful.
> First version was the following, but I found it too powerful.
>
> Name: Preacher
> Cardtype: Action
> +1 stealth action. Requires an anarch.
> Put this card on this anarch and untap him or her at the end of the turn. During your untap phase, you may burn 1 blood to choose a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire. He or she becomes anarch (and Independent).
>
Agree that that's too powerful.
If you changed it to ...choose a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire you control. and added uniqueness to it, it would probably be balanced compared to Seattle Committee. When you include being able to change other players vampires sects then balance gets complicated.
> Non-existant user wrote:
> The name is wrong: religious titles are granted by the Sabbat, not the Anarch.
>
Reverend Adams is Caitiff... That was more the sense of it.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Mael wrote:
>
> > Haze wrote:
> > There are better and faster ways of going anarch. it's weaker than "Go Anarch", and nobody uses that one.
> >
> I disagree, at it's about on a par, different (as Blooding and Mustajib are different from each other), and lacking the untap. At superior it's more akin to a minion based version of Seattle Committee or Twilight Camp. Also, I have seen "Go Anarch" played, as has the TWDA.
>
I stand corrected!! ok it's still weaker than Go Anarch and Seattle Committee and Twilight Camp and all those other options. requires disciplines and an older vampire and you don't even untap.
>
> > > The ability to make other people anarch is secondary, and can be used to help prevent the wrong person getting ousted by your anarch revolts,
> > >
> > cornercase, since they can go anarch themselves. maybe you save them 1 pool, sometimes.
> >
> It's not cornercase as they are would both be elements of the same deck so are under your control when deckbuilding. People play with Boons for pretty much the same purpose.
>
It's cornercase that they can't just go anarch themselves and depend entirely on your unlimited generosity to save them from your own card.
>
> > > or to mess up a Black Hand or Aye/Orun deck that insists on leaving its key vampires not-anarch. The latter is why it needs to have a burn clause.
> > >
> > then it's just annoying at most, and they'll take the action to go un-anarch if needed. though actually, Black Hand vampires don't care if they're anarch, and it's hard to target a younger vampire with Orun...
> >
> No, but vampires who want to become black hand do, as do BH vampires who want to be Abbot. Also, it's quite easy to target a younger vampire with 1 or 2 Orun, and if the card prevented him ever becoming Laibon again that's all he'd ever get. And those are just the first two sect based strategies I thought of, probably not the only ones.
>
ex 1 - they remove the anarch counter. successful action, next minion plays Mustajib. yay. now they all become Abbots.
ex 2 - you have tapped your 7+ cap anarch to turn the 2 cap w/ 2 orun into an anarch. ow annoying. on his turn he removes the counter. yay nice tradeoff.
but wait, if it has 3 orun then you'll need a 10+ cap. hrmmm, tricky tricky.
>
> I'm not saying that you would include the card for it's ability to mess with such decks, but it's an added bonus on a card that you include in a deck to make your own guys anarch.
>
the original post gave me that impression it was the intent of the card. not that anyone should play Public Enemy in their redlist deck, and turn their vampire into an anarch to turn another vampire into an anarch then get a non-anarch vampire to play P.E. on the anarch so finally someone can rush the vampire and then diablerize the vampire to get Trophy: Wealth and Trophy: Retainers.
also for the brilliant toptier combo of playing Judgment Cam Seg in an anarch deck.
>
> > why not just bleed for 1 instead of using this card
> >
> Why not just play Malk stealth bleed? Some people like a little variety. Apart from that, I really can't see how a card to make your guys anarch is comparable to bleeding for 1 as an action.
>
I see that you're a master of strawman arguments. because bleeding for 1 is exactly the same as Malk'94, I can't believe I never realized that. why not just play Malk stealth bleed instead of a deck that puts Erosion on everybody. some people like a little variety.
the point is that turning other methuselah's vampires into anarchs adds nothing to the game and is still very weak.
> Ankha wrote:
> Maybe the card was nerfed to much to become very useful.
> First version was the following, but I found it too powerful.
>
> Name: Preacher
> Cardtype: Action
> +1 stealth action. Requires an anarch.
> Put this card on this anarch and untap him or her at the end of the turn. During your untap phase, you may burn 1 blood to choose a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire. He or she becomes anarch (and Independent).
>
Going back to and adapting your original idea on this, what do you think of:
Name: Preacher
Cardtype: Action
+1 stealth action. Unique. Requires a ready anarch. Put this card on the acting anarch. This ready anarch may tap this card to put an anarch counter on a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire. He or she becomes anarch (and Independent). If this card leaves play or this vampire is not a ready anarch, burn all anarch counters that were given by this card.
> Mael wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > Maybe the card was nerfed to much to become very useful.
> > First version was the following, but I found it too powerful.
> >
> > Name: Preacher
> > Cardtype: Action
> > +1 stealth action. Requires an anarch.
> > Put this card on this anarch and untap him or her at the end of the turn. During your untap phase, you may burn 1 blood to choose a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire. He or she becomes anarch (and Independent).
> >
> Going back to and adapting your original idea on this, what do you think of:
>
> Name: Preacher
> Cardtype: Action
> +1 stealth action. Unique. Requires a ready anarch. Put this card on the acting anarch. This ready anarch may tap this card to put an anarch counter on a ready younger non-anarch non-titled vampire. He or she becomes anarch (and Independent). If this card leaves play or this vampire is not a ready anarch, burn all anarch counters that were given by this card.
>
It's an acceptable proposition.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Amenophobis wrote:
> [red eyes] You don't mess with the Preacher. [/red eyes] B)
>
Apparently you do not know the awsome Preacher comics from Vertigo.
Preacher Wiki entry
You should try them! Awesome indeed. B)
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