Card Idea: Recycling Plant

Recycling Plant Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu. Cost: 1 Tap during your discard phase to move the bottom card of your library to the top of your library.

Um, Waste Management + this card = customise hand. Too powerful. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Um, Waste Management + this card = customise hand. Too powerful. > Ye, agree too powerful. Another version: Recycling Plant Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu. Cost: 1 Tap during your discard phase to look the bottom five cards of your library. Shuffle those cards and put them to the top of your library.

That was the point, to make a card that works well in tandem with Waste Management Maybe my version is too powerful, though. So how could we balance this a little better while still keeping a nice interaction between the two cards?

Try this. Step 1: Not !Bruj only. Step 2: Make it so that other people can use it but also potentially feed you pool. Step 3: Make it uncertain that you will definately gain pool. Recycling Plant Master 2 pool Any minion may take a +1 stealth action to put a counter on this card. When a minion puts a counter on this card, you may put one card from your ashheap into your library and shuffle your library. During your untap phase, you may move a counter from this card to your pool. Any vampire may take a action to move a counter from this card to their controller's pool. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Try this. Step 1: Not !Bruj only. Step 2: Make it so that other people can use it but also potentially feed you pool. Step 3: Make it uncertain that you will definately gain pool. > > Recycling Plant > Master > 2 pool > Any minion may take a +1 stealth action to put a counter on this card. When a minion puts a counter on this card, you may put one card from your ashheap into your library and shuffle your library. During your untap phase, you may move a counter from this card to your pool. Any vampire may take a action to move a counter from this card to their controller's pool. > I don't think that would see play. One card back to library is not too strong. I wouldn't want to make effect stronger b/c graveyard recursion should be IMO very limited. That's why I prefer clan requirement.

I think it should be !Brujah as well, since it goes so well themewise with Waste Management Operation, and even Henry Taylor. A certain degree of recycling and library manipulation seems like a !Brujah thing due to these two. The problem, though, was that the first version wasn't actually very interesting at all without a Waste Management Operation or something similar in play. What about this? Recyling Plant Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu. Cost: 2 Any Brujah Antitribu you control may take a +1 stealth action to put a counter on this card. Tap and burn a counter from this card during your discard phase to move the bottom card of your library to the top of your library. Tap and burn a counter from this card to discard a card. So you can recycle cards with WMO *or* get additional discards like a sort of weaker Barrens (not discard phase actions, don't want extra events being played) now, and it costs a bit more, and costs an action to work each time as well.

Another alternative: Recycling Plant Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu. Cost: 1 Tap when a Brujah Antitribu you control announces an action. If the action is successful, shuffle one card played by the acting vampire during this action into your deck. Or if that's a bit too strong: Recycling Plant Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu. Cost: 1 Tap when a Brujah Antitribu you control announces an action. The acting vampire burns one blood. If the action is successful, shuffle one card played by the acting vampire during this action into your deck.

> LunaSlave wrote: > Recycling Plant > Master: Unique Location. Brujah Antitribu. > Cost: 1 > Tap during your discard phase to move the bottom card of your library to the top of your library. > I don't find it way over powerful because it happens during the discard phase and you don't put it in your hand directly (though you may discard just after to achieve this effect). What about: Recycling Plant Clan: Brujah Antitribu. Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 Master: unique Location. Tap during your discard phase to move the bottom card of your library to the top of your library, then shuffle the top 10 cards of your library. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Surreal wrote: > > > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > > Try this. Step 1: Not !Bruj only. Step 2: Make it so that other people can use it but also potentially feed you pool. Step 3: Make it uncertain that you will definately gain pool. > > > > Recycling Plant > > Master > > 2 pool > > Any minion may take a +1 stealth action to put a counter on this card. When a minion puts a counter on this card, you may put one card from your ashheap into your library and shuffle your library. During your untap phase, you may move a counter from this card to your pool. Any vampire may take a action to move a counter from this card to their controller's pool. > > > I don't think that would see play. One card back to library is not too strong. I wouldn't want to make effect stronger b/c graveyard recursion should be IMO very limited. That's why I prefer clan requirement. > Just 1 copy of that, and the Legacy of Pander deck gets to play Con Boon forever when no cards are left in the library.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Try this. Step 1: Not !Bruj only. > Card recursion for everyone leads to Ashur-like endless complaints. Sticking with !Brujah seems way better, game- and background-speaking. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

What in particular leads you to believe that !Brujah are especially deserving of card recycling tech? They already have Waste Management Ops. They can already customise their late-game library. So I don't really see why they should have the ability to customise their hand now and hand later? Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > What in particular leads you to believe that !Brujah are especially deserving of card recycling tech? They already have Waste Management Ops. They can already customise their late-game library. > > So I don't really see why they should have the ability to customise their hand now and hand later? > I agree that this doesn't suit for !Brujah so much. I would like to see this kind of card with Habringers. Plus Recycling Plant doesn't sound very !Brujah like: "I'm gonna disarm your face if you don't recycle!".

Such as it isn't unique carriage return whatever, I don't see the point of it. Anyway the !Brujah could simply have a clan intercept location, maybe even one that gives +2 intercept.

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > What in particular leads you to believe that !Brujah are especially deserving of card recycling tech? > So I don't really see why they should have the ability to customise their hand now and hand later? > Is that the "background-speaking" part that annoys you? I don't really care if the !Brujah get it or not (I don't like that clan anyway ), I was just saying that sticking to a clan would be better than a card anyone has access to. Just to stick with the existing (Waste Management for !Brujah, Sudario for Giovanni, Maabara for HoS). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Right, so what is wrong with creating a globally accessible one that potentially benefits the owner at least as much as everyone else? (e.g. Anthelios, the Coven, PB:M, etc) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Right, so what is wrong with creating a globally accessible one that potentially benefits the owner at least as much as everyone else? (e.g. Anthelios, the Coven, PB:M, etc) > The fact that recursion is a very powerful tool that shouldn't be too easily accessed too. Anthelios is awesome, but works for everyone the moment it enters play. The others do not provide recursion. I don't see in your proposition the part where everyone benefits from it (apart from gaining pool). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The card I designed allows EVERYONE to move cards, but at the cost of potentially giving the OWNER of the card pool. So if you want a card, and don't want to give the owner of the card pool, you need to take 2 actions. Maybe if it doesn't seem to read that way, I should edit it further. Recycling Plant Master 2 pool Unique Master: Location. Any minion may take a +1 stealth action to put a counter on this card. The controller of the acting minion may move one card from their ashheap to the bottom of their library. During your untap phase, you may move 1 counter from this card to your pool. Any vampire may take a to move 1 counter from this card to their controller's pool. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > The card I designed allows EVERYONE to move cards, but at the cost of potentially giving the OWNER of the card pool. So if you want a card, and don't want to give the owner of the card pool, you need to take 2 actions. Maybe if it doesn't seem to read that way, I should edit it further. > Indeed, it didn't ("When a minion puts a counter on this card, you may put one card from your ashheap into your library and shuffle your library. ..." The card allows a swarm deck to recycle too many cards, and as PB said, I don't think it's a good thing for a Legacy of Pander deck for instance. Anyway, the idea behind Recycling Plant was to create a synergy with WMO, so we're a little off-topic. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Then you put a "once per turn" clause on the Recycling Plant. Making it work with WMO makes it too powerful. Recycling Plant Master 2 pool Unique Master: Location. Once per minion phase, a minion may take a +1 stealth action to put a counter on this card. The controller of the acting minion may move a card from their ash heap to the bottom of their library. During your untap phase you may move 1 counter from this card to your pool. Any minion may take a to move 1 counter from this card to their controller's pool. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Then you put a "once per turn" clause on the Recycling Plant. Making it work with WMO makes it too powerful. > Even when shuffling the top 10 cards? > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Recycling Plant > Master > 2 pool > Unique Master: Location. > Once per minion phase, a minion may take a +1 stealth action to put a counter on this card. The controller of the acting minion may move a card from their ash heap to the bottom of their library. During your untap phase you may move 1 counter from this card to your pool. Any minion may take a to move 1 counter from this card to their controller's pool. > IMHO, this version leads to more abuse than the original idea behind the card. (BTW, did you notice that your version allows the same abuse as the WMO+RP combo if you play Inconnu Tutelage?) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Ankha, It just allows me to load the top 10 cards and/or your hand to your liking. There isn't much difference in most decks since they'd like to probably play 5-10 cards between untap phases. Any abuse via Iconnu Tutelage requires 3 separate cards, that's just 'moderate difficulty' rather than 'easy as you like'. Once per turn minion phase, someone can put a counter on it. Once per minion, someone can act to steal counters off it for their pool. So if people are loading the card up cross-table, there is also the opportunity for people to loot it back empty. If you're planning to do anything other than grab one card and maybe 1 pool per turn (and not defend it), then it's basically a +1 stealth undirected action to put a card on the bottom of your library. The only other way to 'break' the card is to have a Madness Network and put cards into it during every minion phase (which basically makes it a near-auto-include for a Rachel Brandywine deck, since they use Homonculus, Perfectionist, Madness Network) Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Ankha, It just allows me to load the top 10 cards and/or your hand to your liking. There isn't much difference in most decks since they'd like to probably play 5-10 cards between untap phases. > In ten turns? In order to fetch a card and play it on your next turn (unless you want to fetch a reaction), you need to cycle 5-10 cards during the other Methuselah's turn, meaning you're playing a !Brujah intercept deck that cycles quite a lot. I don't think it's overpowered. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Any abuse via Iconnu Tutelage requires 3 separate cards, that's just 'moderate difficulty' rather than 'easy as you like'. > Easier than cycling 5-10 cards each time you want to fetch a card. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Once per turn minion phase, someone can put a counter on it. Once per minion, someone can act to steal counters off it for their pool. So if people are loading the card up cross-table, there is also the opportunity for people to loot it back empty. If you're planning to do anything other than grab one card and maybe 1 pool per turn (and not defend it), then it's basically a +1 stealth undirected action to put a card on the bottom of your library. > So, you can put a card back on the bottom of your library AND gain 1 pool if your crosstable buddy allows it? Even worse. > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > ]The only other way to 'break' the card is to have a Madness Network and put cards into it during every minion phase (which basically makes it a near-auto-include for a Rachel Brandywine deck, since they use Homonculus, Perfectionist, Madness Network) > No need to put complicated tech in place, allowing everyone to recycle cards is not a good idea from the start. And we're far away from the original idea, so create a new thread if you have an way-different card idea to propose. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Okay, this thread has deviated from the first card because it was an immediate auto-include broken combo in any !Brujah deck. So, what I've been trying to flesh out here is a card that is: - balanced - fits better with the idea of a recycling plant - gives the owner enough of a potential bonus to warrant paying the pool - gives others access to it similarly to cards like PB:M, the Coven, the Rack, etc. So consequently, I am trying to build in these elements: - Other players can access it action by any Methuselah to put a card into the library - Owner gains benefits Each counter on the card is potentially 1 pool (no action required) - Other players can stop someone from excessively bloating if they want Other Methuselahs can action the card to remove counters to their own pool. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418