Card idea: One with Nature

Name: One with Nature Cardtype: Action Clan: Ahrimane +1 stealth action. Remove this vampire from the game and put this card into play with X animal retainers from your hand or ash heap on it, where X is the capacity of the vampire. This card represents an unique ally with 0 strength, 0 bleed, 1 life, 1 stealth. It cannot gain retainers nor life and burn when it has no retainer. You may burn a retainer on it to untap it. For each damage it takes, you may burn 1 life from any of its retainers instead. When this card is burned, put the vampire back into play, empty, tapped, in your torpor region. This could be compared to the Great Beast for the Baali. Trade your vampire for an ally that can have many build-in abilities brung by the allies, but that has no buit-in rush or bleed. Loses its strength with each combat as the retainers die. Keep in mind that it requires some setup to get the retainers in hand or in graveyard, and if you include some exotic animals (Elephant, Rafiki), these are dead cards otherwise since you can't play them with a standard Ahrimane deck. Has some interaction with Summon Spirit Beast. You can make it a wall, or an elephant-lion-wolf trampling beast, or anything in-between. Some examples: 5 cap: 5 Raptor (5 Intercept, 6 life, reduce hand size by 5) 1 Elephant Guardian (2 damage during strike resolution), 1 Dog Pack (no CE), 2 Duma Rafiki (2 damage during strike resolution), 1 Raptor(reduce hand size by 1) 10 life 7 cap: 7 Raptor (7 Intercept, 8 life, reduce hand size by 7) 1 Elephant Guardian (2 damage during strike resolution), 1 Dog Pack (no CE), 1 Owl Companion (see opposing hand), 1 Duma Rafiki (1 damage during strike resolution), 2 Murder of Crows (2R damage), 1 Raptor (1 intercept) 10 life Is it balanced? (if not, why?) Is it interesting (if not, why?) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Name: One with Nature > Cardtype: Action > Clan: Ahrimane > +1 stealth action. > Remove this vampire from the game and put this card into play with X animal retainers from your hand or ash heap on it, where X is the capacity of the vampire. This card represents an unique ally with 0 strength, 0 bleed, 1 life, 1 stealth. It cannot gain retainers nor life and burn when it has no retainer. You may burn a retainer on it to untap it. For each damage it takes, you may burn 1 life from any of its retainers instead. When this card is burned, put the vampire back into play, empty, tapped, in your torpor region. > > This could be compared to the Great Beast for the Baali. Trade your vampire for an ally that can have many build-in abilities brung by the allies, but that has no buit-in rush or bleed. Loses its strength with each combat as the retainers die. > Keep in mind that it requires some setup to get the retainers in hand or in graveyard, and if you include some exotic animals (Elephant, Rafiki), these are dead cards otherwise since you can't play them with a standard Ahrimane deck. Has some interaction with Summon Spirit Beast. You can make it a wall, or an elephant-lion-wolf trampling beast, or anything in-between. > > Some examples: > 5 cap: > 5 Raptor (5 Intercept, 6 life, reduce hand size by 5) > 1 Elephant Guardian (2 damage during strike resolution), 1 Dog Pack (no CE), 2 Duma Rafiki (2 damage during strike resolution), 1 Raptor(reduce hand size by 1) 10 life > 7 cap: > 7 Raptor (7 Intercept, 8 life, reduce hand size by 7) > 1 Elephant Guardian (2 damage during strike resolution), 1 Dog Pack (no CE), 1 Owl Companion (see opposing hand), 1 Duma Rafiki (1 damage during strike resolution), 2 Murder of Crows (2R damage), 1 Raptor (1 intercept) 10 life > > Is it balanced? (if not, why?) > Difficult to say. As you say, it does require a bit of setup, and if you want the best combination of retainers then you'd probably have a few otherwise dead cards in your deck. However, you haven't put a blood cost on the card, and any retainers that die from it will go straight back to the ashheap. So two vampires could alternate doing this with the same set of retainers, or when the vampire comes back it could get rescued -> Engling Fury -> One With Nature (assuming you make sure she comes back in your predators turn, which should be possible to do). If you wanted to prevent that, the easy way is to say that any retainers burned from it are removed from the game. Is the effect powerful enough that you need to stop it being easily repeated? I'm not sure, would need playtesting. I think allowing it to be repeated but giving it a 3 blood cost is what I'd recommend. > > Is it interesting (if not, why?) > Definitely is interesting. The wording needs to be cleared up a bit though. From your examples your intention seems to be that cost and requirements for the allies are ignored, but that the retainers have life and abilities as though recruited with the superior discipline. The latter part of that would need to be explicitly stated on the card. Also, while your vampire is removed from the game, there is nothing to stop you recruiting a second copy of her. Is that deliberate? Of course if someone did this, and still had the second copy in play when the first came back then they'd lose the one coming back into play, so it's not much of an issue.

I like the idea and find it interesting. It is just hard to balance and takes lot of thinking. That version is easily unbalanced tho. I don't like that it becomes ally, I would prefer vampire which cannot gain blood and I would remove untap by burning retainers b/c it is way too strong. Like this 7 cap blocker would be very scary with untap: 3x raven spy, 1x dog pack, 3x elephant guardian and it has ton of life too. Raptor version would be annoying too. That untap ability is huge. EDIT or I guess it is better as ally, I just don't like that stealing it with entrancement is too big effect. EDIT I am also thinking is this card fun to play against. If my prey would have this with 7 or more raptors my game would be very boring and there is very little I could do. So that card can add lot of stalling to game. I'm not big fan of cards that doesn't help the game go forward at all.

Thanks for the thoughts and feedback. > Mael wrote: > As you say, it does require a bit of setup, and if you want the best combination of retainers then you'd probably have a few otherwise dead cards in your deck. > > However, you haven't put a blood cost on the card, and any retainers that die from it will go straight back to the ashheap. So two vampires could alternate doing this with the same set of retainers, or when the vampire comes back it could get rescued -> Engling Fury -> One With Nature (assuming you make sure she comes back in your predators turn, which should be possible to do). > > If you wanted to prevent that, the easy way is to say that any retainers burned from it are removed from the game. > Is the effect powerful enough that you need to stop it being easily repeated? I'm not sure, would need playtesting. > I think allowing it to be repeated but giving it a 3 blood cost is what I'd recommend. > I don't think it needs to be prevented. Building a strategy around it (vamp A and B alternates) seems fine. Giving it a 3 blood cost will prevent it from being played by 2-caps (none I can think of, since Arhimane are sterile anyway). > Mael wrote: > The wording needs to be cleared up a bit though. From your examples your intention seems to be that cost and requirements for the allies are ignored, but that the retainers have life and abilities as though recruited with the superior discipline. The latter part of that would need to be explicitly stated on the card. > I omitted the remainder texts, but since cards are put directly in play, they default to: no cost, no requirement, inferior discipline (if any). > Mael wrote: > Also, while your vampire is removed from the game, there is nothing to stop you recruiting a second copy of her. Is that deliberate? > Not deliberate, but you gain nothing by doing so, so it's not really an issue as you said. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Problem of it being ally is that it dies to one inferior theft with that wording. Different version: Name: One with Nature Cardtype: Action Clan: Ahrimane +1 stealth action. 2 blood Remove this vampire from the game and put this card into play with X animal retainers from your hand or ash heap on it, where X is half the capacity of the vampire (round down). This card becomes clanless independent vampire with X capacity, 2 strength and 0 bleed. Move X blood to him from the blood bank. This vampire gets +1 bleed for every animal retainer it has. It cannot gain retainers and burn when it has no retainer. For each damage it takes, you may burn 1 life from any of its retainers instead. During your untap phase this vampire takes 2 damage. When this card is burned, put the vampire back into play, empty, in your torpor region.

> Surreal wrote: > EDIT or I guess it is better as ally, I just don't like that stealing it with entrancement is too big effect. > Allies are globally weaker than vampires since there's many cards that can steal/destroy them. But you'll notice that, like a War Ghoul, you can "sacrifice" the ally before it's stolen (but burning all its retainer to untap it). Otherwise, it would have resulted in stealing the vampire. > Surreal wrote: > EDIT I am also thinking is this card fun to play against. If my prey would have this with 7 or more raptors my game would be very boring and there is very little I could do. So that card can add lot of stalling to game. I'm not big fan of cards that doesn't help the game go forward at all. > The durability of the ally prevents it from locking definitely a player. Each time it blocks, it will probably take 1 damage and lose 1 raptor. Blocking with it means the player will lose its hand, but will take no damage, and it will only block once. Burning the retainers to block many times will reduce each time the hand size restriction. In the end, playing 7 Raptors isn't as strong as it seems. Better mix Raptor and damage dealing retainers. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > ]Allies are globally weaker than vampires since there's many cards that can steal/destroy them. > But you'll notice that, like a War Ghoul, you can "sacrifice" the ally before it's stolen (but burning all its retainer to untap it). Otherwise, it would have resulted in stealing the vampire. > My problem of it being a ally is that one card (autonomic mastery for example) can totally screw it. I prefer that card would be all around good.

> Surreal wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > ]Allies are globally weaker than vampires since there's many cards that can steal/destroy them. > > But you'll notice that, like a War Ghoul, you can "sacrifice" the ally before it's stolen (but burning all its retainer to untap it). Otherwise, it would have resulted in stealing the vampire. > > > My problem of it being a ally is that one card (autonomic mastery for example) can totally screw it. I prefer that card would be all around good. > Leaving you with your vampire, empty, tapped, in torpor. I guess it would be a risk you are willing to take, just like with Dual Form. Making it a vampire would make it sensible to Pentex Subversion. It must have some weakness anyway, and strikes that burn allies outright are not that frequent. What would you suggest? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > ]Leaving you with your vampire, empty, tapped, in torpor. I guess it would be a risk you are willing to take, just like with Dual Form. > Making it a vampire would make it sensible to Pentex Subversion. > It must have some weakness anyway, and strikes that burn allies outright are not that frequent. > What would you suggest? > My suggestion was earlier: Name: One with Nature Cardtype: Action Clan: Ahrimane +1 stealth action. 2 blood Remove this vampire from the game and put this card into play with X animal retainers from your hand or ash heap on it, where X is half the capacity of the vampire (round down). This card becomes clanless independent vampire with X capacity, 2 strength and 0 bleed. Move X blood to him from the blood bank. This vampire gets +1 bleed for every animal retainer it has. It cannot gain retainers and burn when it has no retainer. For each damage it takes, you may burn 1 life from any of its retainers instead. During your untap phase this vampire takes 2 damage. When this card is burned, put the vampire back into play, empty, in your torpor region. Bigger problem of it being ally is that it dies to steal blood and burn life effects instantly. Not sure if my version is too strong, thinking it can be too weak. 6 cap could make 3cap 2 str, 3 bleed vampire with +2 intercept and one elephant guardian. That created vampire must have some kind of dmg/burn retainer during untap so it doesn't last too long. I like my suggestion more b/c you don't have to plan your whole deck around it. If you are playing with raven spies and murders with ahrimanes, you could put couple of copies in your deck when you vampires are getting low on blood. Maybe blood cost should be only 1. Cannot use equipment could work too. Card text is just getting long.

We're printing this card on it's own sheet of A4 paper?? Seems like we're setting up a reasonable idea with a HUGE text. One with Nature Action Requires: Ahrimanes +1 stealth. Put this card in play and place the acting vampire under this card. Remove all blood counters from the vampire. For each blood counter removed you may place an Animal Retainer on it from your hand, library or ash heap as if it was recruited with [ANI]. This card may block actions as a vampire with capacity equal to its number of retainers. When this card blocks, deal 1 damage to the acting minion and remove 1 life from any retainer on this card; there is no combat. Remove this card from play and place the vampire in your torpor region when there are no retainers on this card. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > We're printing this card on it's own sheet of A4 paper?? > Seems like we're setting up a reasonable idea with a HUGE text. > > One with Nature > Action > Requires: Ahrimanes > +1 stealth. > Put this card in play and place the acting vampire under this card. Remove all blood counters from the vampire. For each blood counter removed you may place an Animal Retainer on it from your hand, library or ash heap as if it was recruited with [ANI]. This card may block actions as a vampire with capacity equal to its number of retainers. When this card blocks, deal 1 damage to the acting minion and remove 1 life from any retainer on this card; there is no combat. Remove this card from play and place the vampire in your torpor region when there are no retainers on this card. > There is more text on Call the Great Beast. So that card works like Unleash Hell's Fury? Way more interesting to make it vampire or ally. I don't find that version so interesting b/c you just have blocker with 0 intercept with huge pile "life". I think that version is broken, with 6 cap full life ANI ahrimane you will get 0 intercept 18 "life" blocker which doesn't tap.

Um, you use a 6cap and load it up with: 2x Raptor 4x Raven Spy It's now able to block around 8 actions with between +1 and +6 intercept. The more it blocks, the less intercept it will have and then it will eventually die and leave you with a 6-cap in torpor. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

> Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Um, you use a 6cap and load it up with: > 2x Raptor > 4x Raven Spy > > It's now able to block around 8 actions with between +1 and +6 intercept. The more it blocks, the less intercept it will have and then it will eventually die and leave you with a 6-cap in torpor. > It was hard to get what you were thinking with that card b/c it is not a minion. It needs some different wording then b/c only minions can have abilities of retainers. But I find card much more interesting when it is minion, it can do stuff and not just sit still to block.

> Ankha wrote: > > > Mael wrote: > > The wording needs to be cleared up a bit though. From your examples your intention seems to be that cost and requirements for the allies are ignored, but that the retainers have life and abilities as though recruited with the superior discipline. The latter part of that would need to be explicitly stated on the card. > > > I omitted the remainder texts, but since cards are put directly in play, they default to: no cost, no requirement, inferior discipline (if any). > In this case I think you're forgetting that Raptors only give -1 handsize at > Surreal wrote: > Problem of it being ally is that it dies to one inferior theft with that wording. > Could be fixed by saying that each time it would lose life it can instead lose 1 life from a retainer on it. > > Different version: > > Name: One with Nature > Cardtype: Action > Clan: Ahrimane > +1 stealth action. > 2 blood > Remove this vampire from the game and put this card into play with X animal retainers from your hand or ash heap on it, where X is half the capacity of the vampire (round down). This card becomes clanless independent vampire with X capacity, 2 strength and 0 bleed. Move X blood to him from the blood bank. This vampire gets +1 bleed for every animal retainer it has. It cannot gain retainers and burn when it has no retainer. For each damage it takes, you may burn 1 life from any of its retainers instead. During your untap phase this vampire takes 2 damage. When this card is burned, put the vampire back into play, empty, in your torpor region. > +X bleed is far too much, especially on a vampire that can act as soon as it comes into play. Also, your version can regain blood up to it's capacity. An 8 cap with 8 murder of crows can bleed for 8, if blocked can inflict 10 damage (2 hands + 8R environmental) and can taste to replace any blood it loses. Far too strong. Edit: Just re-read and noticed you said half the capacity, but even so it's still too much. I think it works better as an ally, instead of a vampire or a non-minion card that can block.

> Mael wrote: > In this case I think you're forgetting that Raptors only give -1 handsize at [ani] > Even better then, it will limit Raptor "abuse". > Juggernaut1981 wrote: > Um, you use a 6cap and load it up with: > 2x Raptor > 4x Raven Spy > > It's now able to block around 8 actions with between +1 and +6 intercept. The more it blocks, the less intercept it will have and then it will eventually die and leave you with a 6-cap in torpor. > I can't see the point playing Raptor over Raven Spy because there is no combat anyway. > Surreal wrote: > But I find card much more interesting when it is minion, it can do stuff and not just sit still to block. > So do I. Basically, Jug's suggestion only works with Raven Spies in the end, whereas a mixed setup of retainers doing different stuff was more what I had in mind. > Surreal wrote: > My suggestion was earlier: > > Name: One with Nature > Cardtype: Action > Clan: Ahrimane > +1 stealth action. > 2 blood > Remove this vampire from the game and put this card into play with X animal retainers from your hand or ash heap on it, where X is half the capacity of the vampire (round down). This card becomes clanless independent vampire with X capacity, 2 strength and 0 bleed. Move X blood to him from the blood bank. This vampire gets +1 bleed for every animal retainer it has. It cannot gain retainers and burn when it has no retainer. For each damage it takes, you may burn 1 life from any of its retainers instead. During your untap phase this vampire takes 2 damage. When this card is burned, put the vampire back into play, empty, in your torpor region. > > Bigger problem of it being ally is that it dies to steal blood and burn life effects instantly. Not sure if my version is too strong, thinking it can be too weak. 6 cap could make 3cap 2 str, 3 bleed vampire with +2 intercept and one elephant guardian. That created vampire must have some kind of dmg/burn retainer during untap so it doesn't last too long. > > I like my suggestion more b/c you don't have to plan your whole deck around it. If you are playing with raven spies and murders with ahrimanes, you could put couple of copies in your deck when you vampires are getting low on blood. Maybe blood cost should be only 1. Cannot use equipment could work too. Card text is just getting long. > Sorry, I didn't see it because I was posting at the same time. It could be an alternative, though there's some trouble with your cardtext because the "For each damage it takes, you may..." means it will never die, and gives him access to disciplines that can make it a little too tough. The 2 damage part tend to counterbalance it but make it too weak because you won't keep it more than 2 turns. Vampires are a bit harder to balance due to the huge amount of options they have (greater than allies). BTW, there is only 1 retainer that has 3 life (apart of Wolf Companion, but only a superior), it's the Elephant Guardian, and it's limited to 1 per minion. If I adjust the ally version, it gives: Name: One with Nature Cardtype: Action Clan: Ahrimane Cost: 2 blood +1 stealth action. Remove this vampire from the game and put this card into play with X animal retainers from your hand or ash heap on it, where X is the capacity of the vampire. This card represents an unique ally with 0 strength, 0 bleed, 1 life, 1 stealth. It cannot gain retainers nor life and burn when it has no retainer. You may burn a retainer on it to untap it. You may use life from any of its retainers as its life. When this card is burned, put the vampire back into play, empty, tapped, in your torpor region. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director