Can you use the Shard to reduce the cost of a canceled that that is still paid?

Minion A plays a combat card that cost 2 blood, annoucnign to use the shard on that card Minion B plays botched move and the same combat card comes up. the comabt card is therefore canceled, cost is still paid. As Cost reducers are not locked, when the card they are used for is canceled, the shard stays unlocked. But Minion A ahs to still pay for the card, as botched move does not says "cost is not paied" (in fact is hat remidner text that cost is still paid) Can I still use the Shard to reduce the cost of the card? Shard, the Unique location. If you have the Edge, you can lock this card to reduce the cost of a card you play by 2 pool or blood. Vampires can steal this location as a Ⓓ action; Ventrue get +1 stealth during that action. Botched Move Only usable as the opposing minion plays a card that requires a Discipline. The opposing minion's controller reveals the top two cards of his or her library (before drawing to replace). If another copy of the same combat card is revealed, the played card is canceled (cost is still paid), the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage, and all revealed copies are burned. A minion may play only one Botched Move each combat.

> Hobbesgoblin wrote: > Minion A plays a combat card that cost 2 blood, annoucnign to use the shard on that card > Minion B plays botched move and the same combat card comes up. the comabt card is therefore canceled, cost is still paid. > > As Cost reducers are not locked, when the card they are used for is canceled, the shard stays unlocked. > But Minion A ahs to still pay for the card, as botched move does not says "cost is not paied" (in fact is hat remidner text that cost is still paid) > > Can I still use the Shard to reduce the cost of the card? > > Shard, the > > Unique location. > If you have the Edge, you can lock this card to reduce the cost of a card you play by 2 pool or blood. Vampires can steal this location as a Ⓓ action; Ventrue get +1 stealth during that action. > > Botched Move > > Only usable as the opposing minion plays a card that requires a Discipline. > The opposing minion's controller reveals the top two cards of his or her library (before drawing to replace). If another copy of the same combat card is revealed, the played card is canceled (cost is still paid), the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage, and all revealed copies are burned. A minion may play only one Botched Move each combat. > Short: Yes. Long: Per www.vekn.net/history-of-vtes-rules/450-rules-team-rulings-7-july-2007 > > All cost-affecting cards operate no matter how the card is played ("as normal" or otherwise). All multiplication and division is handled first, followed by addition and subtraction. > Per www.vekn.net/rulebook#cancel-a-card > > ADVANCED RULES > > “Cancel a card”: A cancelled card has no effect, but it is still considered played. > Note how The Shard does not have cardtext limiting it towards non-cancelled cards. Note how rulebook states; > > If a non-action card is cancelled, its cost should be paid as normal. > so Botched move is working as intended per the rulebook and cards like Direct intervention on the other hand do not force this cost for non-action cards simply because their cardtext overrides the rules per > > The Golden Rule for Cards: Whenever the cards contradict the rules, the cards take precedence. > Name: The Shard, London [FoL:1] Cardtype: Master Cost: 2 pool Unique location. If you have the Edge, you can lock this card to reduce the cost of a card you play by 2 pool or blood. Vampires can steal this location as a (D) action; Ventrue get +1 stealth during that action. Artist: Felipe Headley Name: Botched Move [Promo-20061026] Cardtype: Combat Only usable as the opposing minion plays a card that requires a Discipline. The opposing minion's controller reveals the top two cards of his or her library (before drawing to replace). If another copy of the same combat card is revealed, the played card is canceled (cost is still paid), the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage, and all revealed copies are burned. A minion may play only one Botched Move each combat. Artist: Josh Timbrook Name: Direct Intervention [Sabbat:U, SW:PB, Third:U, POD:DTC] Cardtype: Master Cost: 1 pool Out-of-turn. Cancel a minion card as it is played, and its cost is not paid. (If it was an action card, the acting minion does not lock. If it was a strike card, the minion chooses another strike.) Artist: Harold Arthur McNeill; Ginés Quiñonero Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

> Hobbesgoblin wrote: > Minion A plays a combat card that cost 2 blood, annoucnign to use the shard on that card > Minion B plays botched move and the same combat card comes up. the comabt card is therefore canceled, cost is still paid. > > Can I still use the Shard to reduce the cost of the card? > Yes. The card is played. You can reduce the cost using the Shard. > Hobbesgoblin wrote: > As Cost reducers are not locked, when the card they are used for is canceled, the shard stays unlocked. > No, it's only the case if you want to use a cost reducer in advance when playing an **action** card that you couldn't otherwise afford, instead of when you should pay the cost. www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/75862-timing-of-the-line#82113 Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director