Dogged Pursuit at superior on a vampire already having one attached

If I control a vampire that has a Dogged Pursuit atteched to it. Can this vampire play Dogged Pursuit at superior to try to block another action? What is confusing to me is that if it is played at superior there is no guarantee that it will get attached to the vampire, there is a condition for that. Dogged Pursuit Only usable by a locked vampire. [ani] This vampire unlocks and attempts to block. If this vampire does not block this action, lock them after action resolution. [ANI] As above, and if this vampire does not block this action, put this card on them after action resolution. This vampire can burn this card to get +1 intercept. A vampire can have only one Dogged Pursuit.

If you can´t block and dont have burned the old one for +1 intercept you can´t attach a second one on the vampire, if you burn the old one, and can´t block, the new one will be attached in the end of resolution David Resende - Prince of Teresina

> DavidR wrote: > If you can´t block and dont have burned the old one for +1 intercept, you can´t attach a second one on the vampire, if you burn the old one, and can´t block, the new one will be attached in the end of resolution > As I am aware, No, the new one will not be attached; the old one will not burn, But yes, if he didn't use the old one for +1 intercept, the resolution will be that the new one will not be attached.

> mipopo3 wrote: > > > DavidR wrote: > > If you can´t block and dont have burned the old one for +1 intercept, you can´t attach a second one on the vampire, if you burn the old one, and can´t block, the new one will be attached in the end of resolution > > > As I am aware, No, the new one will not be attached; the old one will not burn, > > But yes, if he didn't use the old one for +1 intercept, the resolution will be that the new one will not be attached. > But the question is not about whether the dogged pursuit will be attached or not. By the text card, it is clear that if the vampire had a dogged pursuit attached, the new one cannot attached. The question is: Can I play the card at superior if I the vampire already has a dogged attached? If I can play it, I could use a dogged to unlock a vampire who already has a dogged on, burn the dogged already attached (not the one I just played) and in case I fail to block, the dogged I played during this action would be attached. According to this we could argue that the outcome of the dogged pursuit effect is not known until the block is resolved. It is actually kind of a coin flip too. I think we should be able to play it, and when the block fails just don't attach it if the vampire already has one.

> Gryphus wrote: > I can play it, I could use a dogged to unlock a vampire who already has a dogged on, burn the dogged already attached (not the one I just played) and in case I fail to block, the dogged I played during this action would be attached. > This is the correct sequence. Vampire can play it on Superior; there is no restriction on it. But at the end of the action, if the old one was not used, the new one will not be attached in action resolution. As the attaching part is at the end of the action ( if it was successful or blocked).

> mipopo3 wrote: > > > Gryphus wrote: > > I can play it, I could use a dogged to unlock a vampire who already has a dogged on, burn the dogged already attached (not the one I just played) and in case I fail to block, the dogged I played during this action would be attached. > > > This is the correct sequence. > > Vampire can play it on Superior; there is no restriction on it. But at the end of the action, if the old one was not used, the new one will not be attached in action resolution. As the attaching part is at the end of the action ( if it was successful or blocked). > But this was the same thing that i wrote before, just have more words, sorry if it isn´t clear enough David Resende - Prince of Teresina

> Nosk wrote: > If I control a vampire that has a Dogged Pursuit atteched to it. Can this vampire play Dogged Pursuit at superior to try to block another action? > No. Yes, and it will burn if you end up with more than one copy on the vampire. > Nosk wrote: > What is confusing to me is that if it is played at superior there is no guarantee that it will get attached to the vampire, there is a condition for that. > Indeed, it's not guaranteed but it's still possible. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

So what's the differencia between this "it's still possible" here and Gathii's hability? in which there is also the possibility to gain stealth (you won't gain it, but you can use the hability nonetheless). I am not trying to argue here, just trying to get a better understanding so that I can apply this ruling in other similar cases.

> Ankha wrote: > > > Nosk wrote: > > If I control a vampire that has a Dogged Pursuit atteched to it. Can this vampire play Dogged Pursuit at superior to try to block another action? > > > No. > Hi Anka, can we get a bit of clarification on this? The effect of the superior is checked at the end of the Action, not on Start of the Block. And the restriction to have only one is again checked at the end of the Action, not at the start of the block when it is being played. Warning: Spoiler! As above, and if this vampire does not block this action, put this card on them after action resolution. This vampire can burn this card to get +1 intercept. A vampire can have only one Dogged Pursuit. If so, this applies to Fever Pitch Warning: Spoiler! Fortitude or Presence +1 bleed (limited). Superior Fortitude or Superior Presence As above, and if the bleed is successful (for 1 or more), you can put this card on this vampire after action resolution. This vampire can burn this card during a bleed action they perform to have a block attempt fail; the blocking minion cannot attempt to block this action again. A vampire can have only one Fever Pitch.

> Gryphus wrote: > So what's the differencia between this "it's still possible" here and Gathii's hability? in which there is also the possibility to gain stealth (you won't gain it, but you can use the hability nonetheless). > > I am not trying to argue here, just trying to get a better understanding so that I can apply this ruling in other similar cases. > You're right. Based on Gathii's ruling, based on the Portrait ruling, since the outcome is not known yet, you can play it at superior (and it will burn if you have more than one copy). Same thing for Fever Pitch. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hi, i dont understand the "outcome is unknown" argument. Imagine I have a wrmh talk radio in play (can lock to grant intercept to any minion, when used on not-my-minion AND block fails). Can I play a parity shift while being on the same amount of pool as anybody else? I dont know if i am able to resolve the actio. I know this is far fetched. I just want to know yhe arguement. Have a cold long night, Jeroen van Oort Dutch National Coördinator

Based on this thread, equating a self-contained ability (Gathii) with effects dependent on external factors (the need for intercept or block fails), then I should be able to: 1. Attempt to equip Leather Jacket while wearing a Leather Jacket. 2. Attempt to equip Ambulance while riding an Ambulance. 3. Attempt to equip Unlicensed Taxi Cab while riding an Unlicensed Taxi Cab (so long as a Prince or Archbishop is present). 4. Attempt to get ANY vehicle while riding Ambulance or Unlicensed Taxi Cab.

> Oortje wrote: > Can I play a parity shift while being on the same amount of pool as anybody else? > Yes, it will "fizzles the action: the action still resolves and, if unblocked, is successful, but it has no effect." Edit* Action is successful, referendum fail, didn't pass. Edit ** there is a ruling contradicting this statement ruling

> Sérgio wrote: > Based on this thread, equating a self-contained ability (Gathii) with effects dependent on external factors (the need for intercept or block fails), then I should be able to: > > 1. Attempt to equip Leather Jacket while wearing a Leather Jacket. > 2. Attempt to equip Ambulance while riding an Ambulance. > 3. Attempt to equip Unlicensed Taxi Cab while riding an Unlicensed Taxi Cab (so long as a Prince or Archbishop is present). > 4. Attempt to get ANY vehicle while riding Ambulance or Unlicensed Taxi Cab. > Think there is a mix-up; you can"equip Leather Jacket while wearing a Leather Jacket" You will need to burn one once the other is in play, but you can play it; it's not unique.

Parity Shift has a ruling about it needing to have legal targets so no, fizzling is not applicable - either the Dogged Pursuit ruling rolls back the ruling, or it shouldn't be playable. Unique shouldn't be a limitation, since it should just slide off like snot, like any other equipment with quantity limitation. If we're throwing "you can't do what you can't do" out the window, then there's no reason why self-contesting and quantity limited equipment, should behave differently. Also, attempt to equip Blood Tears of Kephran while having Blood Tears of Kephran.

> Sérgio wrote: > Parity Shift has a ruling about it needing to have legal targets so no, fizzling is not applicable - either the Dogged Pursuit ruling rolls back the ruling, or it shouldn't be playable. > > Unique shouldn't be a limitation, since it should just slide off like snot, like any other equipment with quantity limitation. If we're throwing "you can't do what you can't do" out the window, then there's no reason why self-contesting and quantity limited equipment, should behave differently. > > Also, attempt to equip Blood Tears of Kephran while having Blood Tears of Kephran. > This ruling is before the update and rewording, so the ruling is Mute. Edit* however that is a new ruling with updated text ruling A unique ruling is that stopping a play of a card, a card stating "you can have only one," is in effect only after it's resolved and in play. Thus, you can't play equip Blood Tears of Kephran while having Blood Tears of Kephran. As this is a self-contest, that is stopping you from playing it. While you can have more than one piece of the same equipment, like Magnum, Flak Jacket, nothing is stopping you from playing it, but there is nothing you can do to have two pieces of the equipment with a restriction that you can have only one. Edit: Here is the part of the discussion that the rulebook wording should be updated to match existing rulings regarding unique cards. discusion

> Oortje wrote: > Hi, i dont understand the "outcome is unknown" argument. > Imagine I have a wrmh talk radio in play (can lock to grant intercept to any minion, when used on not-my-minion AND block fails). Can I play a parity shift while being on the same amount of pool as anybody else? I dont know if i am able to resolve the actio. > I know this is far fetched. I just want to know yhe arguement. > The "outcome is unknown" nature of an effect is only relevant for the resolution of the same effect, not distinct effects, such as WMRH and Parity Shift in your example. The Portrait can be played even if the vampire has already bled because it has a built-in random outcome that could be legal in some cases, and illegal in some others. (It could have been ruled the other way round, both designer choices are valid). > Sérgio wrote: > Based on this thread, equating a self-contained ability (Gathii) with effects dependent on external factors (the need for intercept or block fails), then I should be able to: > > 1. Attempt to equip Leather Jacket while wearing a Leather Jacket. > 2. Attempt to equip Ambulance while riding an Ambulance. > 3. Attempt to equip Unlicensed Taxi Cab while riding an Unlicensed Taxi Cab (so long as a Prince or Archbishop is present). > 4. Attempt to get ANY vehicle while riding Ambulance or Unlicensed Taxi Cab. > No. None of these have a random outcome, and you cannot attempt to do something that would result in something illegal (such as having two Leather Jackets). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Agreed, none of them have a random outcome. Which is why, Dogged Pursuit, which also doesn't have a random outcome, but an outcome dependent on choices made by you, should not inherit the Gathii ruling. Gathii's ability is not to provide stealth, but to flip the top card of your library; if that card happens to belong to group 1, you get X effect, otherwise, you get Y effect. Dogged Pursuit's text neither follows that reasoning nor is it random, instead being fully controlled by the player. Given the only difference between superior and inferior is the ability to place the card on the vampire, which points towards the intent of the card's design and wording, if the check is only done upon action resolution, then there is no reason why I shouldn't be able to check only upon action resolution of Blood Tears of Kephran, or Leather Jacket - after all, they're as random as Dogged Pursuit. What is actually being set as precedent here is a distinction between playing cards with at least partial card text being delayed conditional effects, at a point when said delayed conditional effect could not be met given current game state but might in the future, and attempting actions when their resolution is not legal given current game state but might be upon resolution. And I'm not sure those are distinguishable.

Ok, so the argument is: a card has effect A, but can have effect B. It is allowed to play it for effect A, even if effect B can maybe not be resolved. I underatand the logic, i cant think of an other example rifht now. Intresting. Have a cold long night, Jeroen van Oort Dutch National Coördinator

Another example is Break the Bonds [obf] not being decided until the very last moment, because the ultimate target of the bleed being unknown. This argument however holds no water if the target of the bleed controls no minions and can't bounce, at which point the [obf] portion of the card shouldn't be a valid choice on declaration. But it is.

You can bounce with Two Wrongs.

> KoRneeshon wrote: > You can bounce with Two Wrongs. > How, exactly? Two Wrong's card text below, emphasis mine. Master: out-of-turn. Trifle. Play when a minion controlled by a Methuselah other than your predator is bleeding you after blocks are declined. That minion is now bleeding his or her prey. The next card that would change the target of this bleed is canceled as it is played.

> Sérgio wrote: > Another example is Break the Bonds [obf] not being decided until the very last moment, because the ultimate target of the bleed being unknown. This argument however holds no water if the target of the bleed controls no minions and can't bounce, at which point the [obf] portion of the card shouldn't be a valid choice on declaration. But it is. > Compare the following cards and ponder what difference "can" does on your ability to choose on applying the effect, emphasis mine. Name: Break the Bonds [V5C:PR8] Cardtype: Action Discipline: Animalism/Obfuscate/Presence Requires an Anarch. More than one Discipline can be used to play this card. (D) Bleed. [ani] The bleed is with +1 bleed. [obf] If the bleed is successful, you [b]can[/b] lock a minion controlled by the target Methuselah. [pre] If the bleed is successful, add 1 blood to a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Artist: Cos Koniotis Name: Consanguineous Condemnation [Jyhad:C, VTES:C] Cardtype: Political Action Choose a clan. Successful referendum locks all vampires of that clan. Artist: L. A. Williams Name: Corruption [AH:C2, FN:PS4, POD:DTC] Cardtype: Action Clan: Ministry +1 stealth action. (D) Put 1 corruption counter on a minion controlled by your prey. If the number of your corruption counters on the minion equals or exceeds their capacity or cost, you [b]can[/b] burn those counters to steal the target minion. Artist: Anson Maddocks Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.