Extending from this clarification: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79960-nightstick-and-defensive-strikes?start=6#105963
If only ranged strikes, dodge and combat ends are effective at long range, can a minion gain a press by using a "strike:X with optional press" while at long range?
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
normally the strikes will be something like "strike: strength+1, with optional press" so the optional press is not attached to the strike, in long range will hit nothing and still get your press, the "," mekes the diference
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
> DavidR wrote:
> normally the strikes will be something like "strike: strength+1, with optional press" so the optional press is not attached to the strike, in long range will hit nothing and still get your press, the "," mekes the diference
>
The rulebook (and clarified in the linked thread) says that non-ranged strikes that are not dodge or combat ends have no effect at long range. You can't get the optional press without using the strike, so it is attached to the strike. Even Nightstick cannot be used to prevent damage at long range, sonit wouldn't be about whether the effect affects the opposing vampire.
I don't see the relevance of a comma here. If that's the difference, Creeping Infection could be argued to have its second effect work at long range.
Meat Hook has explicit text but it makes sense from a "lore" perspective even without the text. Lam Into giving the press at long range makes no sense from a "lore" perspective, which is what initially made me ask the question.
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
The optional press is not attached to the strike, like DavidR said. Read it logically as:
(strike:X) + (optional press)
rather than:
(strike:x with optional press)
The optional press gain is effect of the card, not the effect of the strike.
> KoRneeshon wrote:
> The optional press is not attached to the strike, like DavidR said. Read it logically as:
> (strike:X) + (optional press)
>
> rather than:
> (strike:x with optional press)
>
> The optional press gain is effect of the card, not the effect of the strike.
>
Incorrect
discord.com/channels/887471681277399091/1449089906822483978/1449102785084919848
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
> Squidalot wrote:
> better to ask the specific card rather than the generic I would suggest
>
Sure but there are at least 2 cards with the same text template so I was hoping to get a ruling against the "strike X with an optional press" rather than getting a card-specific ruling and then having to extend it to other similar cards
Name: Lam Into
[TR:C, POD:DTC]
Cardtype: Combat
Discipline: Fortitude/Potence/Vicissitude
Requires an Anarch. Do not replace until after combat. Strike: hand strike or use a melee weapon strike.
[for] This strike is at +1 damage, with 1 optional maneuver.
[pot] This strike is at +2 damage.
[vic] This strike is at +1 damage, with 1 optional press. If another round of combat occurs, that round is at close range (skip the determine range step for that round).
Artist: Brian LeBlanc
Name: Righteous Blade
[NB3:PS4]
Cardtype: Equipment
Clan: Salubri
Melee weapon.
Strike: strength+1 damage, with 1 optional press, only usable to continue combat, each combat.
Artist: Pablo D. Hidalgo
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
With an example:
1. Can a minion play Lam Into (vic, hand strike) if the round is set at long range (without dealing damage of course)?
2. If yes, does the minion get an optional press?
3. If yes, does the new round is set at close range?
Lam Into
Warning: Spoiler!
Cardtype: Combat
Requires an Anarch. Do not replace until after combat. Strike: hand strike or use a melee weapon strike.
[for] This strike is at +1 damage, with 1 optional maneuver.
[pot] This strike is at +2 damage.
[vic] This strike is at +1 damage, with 1 optional press. If another round of combat occurs, that round is at close range (skip the determine range step for that round).
Lam Into and righteous blade fall in the case i said before, obvious the press from RB can only be used to continue combat, and the press of Lam Into can be used and if the next round occur, will be at close range
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
> the1andonlime wrote:
> Extending from this clarification: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79960-nightstick-and-defensive-strikes?start=6#105963
>
> If only ranged strikes, dodge and combat ends are effective at long range, can a minion gain a press by using a "strike:X with optional press" while at long range?
>
No, since the strike is not effective, and the press is tied to the strike.
REVERSAL: The strike has no effect on the opposing minion, but you still have a press.
see www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/83009-clarification-effective-strike#117087
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Palamedes wrote:
> With an example:
>
> 1. Can a minion play Lam Into (vic, hand strike) if the round is set at long range (without dealing damage of course)?
>
Yes.
> Palamedes wrote:
> 2. If yes, does the minion get an optional press?
>
No.
REVERSAL: yes
See www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/83009-clarification-effective-strike#117087
> Palamedes wrote:
> 3. If yes, does the new round is set at close range?
>
Moot.
Yes.
See www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/83009-clarification-effective-strike#117087
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > the1andonlime wrote:
> > Extending from this clarification: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79960-nightstick-and-defensive-strikes?start=6#105963
> >
> > If only ranged strikes, dodge and combat ends are effective at long range, can a minion gain a press by using a "strike:X with optional press" while at long range?
> >
> No, since the strike is not effective, and the press is tied to the strike.
>
Can you explain why [RTR 20010710] on Blood of the Cobra groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/GsI1UyH54jU/m/x9LfDZX1vR4J enables the rest of the effects of a strike to be effective even when the strike itself is not?
> Q: If I use Blood of the Cobra and play Dagon's Call as my strike at long
> range, is it still a hand strike?
> A: No. Dagon's call becomes "Strike: ranged. Make a hand strike ... and the
> opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable damage during the press step..."
> The modified Dagon's Call strike is not a hand strike, and the hand strike
> made as part of its effect is not effective at long range, although the
> rest of the Dagon's Call effect is.
>
> Q: If I use Blood of the Cobra and play Scorpion's Touch as my strike and use
> it with my Bastard Sword, what effect does it have?
> A: Similar to above. Scorpion's Touch makes your Bastard Sword strike a
> "Strike: Make a bastard sword strike and put this card on the opposing
> minion..." and Blood of the Cobra makes that a "Strike: ranged. Make a
> bastard sword strike and put this card on the opposing minion..." The
> Bastard Sword strike does no damage at long range, but the rest of the
> effect ("put this card on the opposing minion...") is applied.
>
If we are using whether or not the strike is effective to determine then would this not be reversal for that as nothing in Blood of the Cobra has said or says apply parts of the strike as it has relied on it just being ranged strike so the effects would apply even for uneffective strikes. Now with things being tied to strike being effective it seems they no longer do?
Name: Blood of the Cobra [FN:R2] Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Quietus [qui] Strike: 1R damage. [QUI] Strike: ranged. Play a non-ranged strike that requires Quietus [qui] from your hand and use that strike as if it were ranged (if the chosen strike is a hand strike, the hand strike's damage is not ranged and this strike is not a hand strike). Artist: William O'Connor
Name: Scorpion's Touch [FN:C2, LotN:PA4, POD:DTC] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Quietus [qui] Strike: hand strike or use a melee weapon strike and put this card on the opposing minion. The attached minion gets -1 strength (this does not affect the current strike resolution). Any vampire can burn this card as a +1 stealth action. A minion can have only one Scorpion's Touch. [QUI] As above, and the attached minion burns 1 blood or life during their unlock phase. Artist: William O'Connor
Name: Bastard Sword [Jyhad:U2, VTES:U] Cardtype: Equipment Cost: 1 pool Melee weapon. Strength+1 damage each strike. Artist: Rob Alexander
Name: Dagon's Call [FN:C2/PA2, POD:DTC] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Quietus A vampire can play only one Dagon's Call each combat. [qui] Strike: hand strike, and the opposing minion takes 1 unpreventable environmental damage during the press step each round this combat (only effective if this strike was made at close range). [QUI] As above, and this hand strike is at +1 damage. Artist: Durwin Talon
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
> Kilrauko wrote:
> Can you explain why [RTR 20010710] on Blood of the Cobra groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/GsI1UyH54jU/m/x9LfDZX1vR4J enables the rest of the effects of a strike to be effective even when the strike itself is not?
>
The strike is effective, but a hand strike at long range does nothing. See also the updated cardtext of Blood of the Cobra: "(if the chosen strike is a hand strike, the hand strike's damage is not ranged and this strike is not a hand strike)".
The rest of the strike that is not a hand strike part applies, since it is ranged.
> Kilrauko wrote:
> If we are using whether or not the strike is effective to determine then would this not be reversal for that as nothing in Blood of the Cobra has said or says apply parts of the strike as it has relied on it just being ranged strike so the effects would apply even for uneffective strikes. Now with things being tied to strike being effective it seems they no longer do?
>
See above.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Palamedes wrote:
> > With an example:
> >
> > 1. Can a minion play Lam Into (vic, hand strike) if the round is set at long range (without dealing damage of course)?
> >
> Yes.
>
> > Palamedes wrote:
> > 2. If yes, does the minion get an optional press?
> >
> No.
> >
> > Palamedes wrote:
> > 3. If yes, does the new round is set at close range?
> >
> Moot.
>
So this is an explicit reveral of LSJ in groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/NQYeOTCc0vE/m/q9OdDQW_vG8J ?
--
National Coordinator
South Africa
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Kilrauko wrote:
> > Can you explain why [RTR 20010710] on Blood of the Cobra groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/GsI1UyH54jU/m/x9LfDZX1vR4J enables the rest of the effects of a strike to be effective even when the strike itself is not?
> >
> The strike is effective, but a hand strike at long range does nothing. See also the updated cardtext of Blood of the Cobra: "(if the chosen strike is a hand strike, the hand strike's damage is not ranged and this strike is not a hand strike)".
> The rest of the strike that is not a hand strike part applies, since it is ranged.
>
> > Kilrauko wrote:
> > If we are using whether or not the strike is effective to determine then would this not be reversal for that as nothing in Blood of the Cobra has said or says apply parts of the strike as it has relied on it just being ranged strike so the effects would apply even for uneffective strikes. Now with things being tied to strike being effective it seems they no longer do?
> >
> See above.
>
As placing cards on the opposing minion is not mentioned in the clarification www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/83009-clarification-effective-strike#117087 and there is existing ruling on it, I'm assuming the ruling on Blood of the Cobra and Scorpion's touch still applies, the damage is not effective but the card is placed on the opposing minion.
If it is not I appreciate if placing cards is added to the list as it is reversal to the LSJ ruling that allows it.
Or allowing that ruling stand for now until a change to the cardtext on Blood of the Cobra is made to prevent that. Blood of the Cobra is not on POD while Scorpion's touch is and imho POD cards should not be touched lightly especially as it's the Blood that enables the interaction (the only card that atm enables "as if it were ranged".) Potential future uses in other cards allowing such shenigans naturally will follow whatever the POD text is deemed to be.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/GsI1UyH54jU/m/x9LfDZX1vR4J
> Q: If I use Blood of the Cobra and play Scorpion's Touch as my strike and use
> it with my Bastard Sword, what effect does it have?
> A: Similar to above. Scorpion's Touch makes your Bastard Sword strike a
> "Strike: Make a bastard sword strike and put this card on the opposing
> minion..." and Blood of the Cobra makes that a "Strike: ranged. Make a
> bastard sword strike and put this card on the opposing minion..." The
> Bastard Sword strike does no damage at long range, but the rest of the
> effect ("put this card on the opposing minion...") is applied.
>
> ...but the rest of the
> effect ("put this card on the opposing minion...") is applied.
>
I can see arguments how scorpions touch being placed on the vampire do not make "change of status " as the -1 str by cardtext does not affect current strike resolution and the superior damage is tied to the status of the Scorpion's touch being on the minion on unlock. Is equipping a Talbot's Chainsaw with Disquised weapon when choosing a strike (placing a card on vampire) "change of status" of a vampire?
Name: Blood of the Cobra [FN:R2] Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Quietus [qui] Strike: 1R damage. [QUI] Strike: ranged. Play a non-ranged strike that requires Quietus [qui] from your hand and use that strike as if it were ranged (if the chosen strike is a hand strike, the hand strike's damage is not ranged and this strike is not a hand strike). Artist: William O'Connor
Name: Scorpion's Touch [FN:C2, LotN:PA4, POD:DTC] Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Quietus [qui] Strike: hand strike or use a melee weapon strike and put this card on the opposing minion. The attached minion gets -1 strength (this does not affect the current strike resolution). Any vampire can burn this card as a +1 stealth action. A minion can have only one Scorpion's Touch. [QUI] As above, and the attached minion burns 1 blood or life during their unlock phase. Artist: William O'Connor
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
> Kilrauko wrote:
> As placing cards on the opposing minion is not mentioned in the clarification www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/83009-clarification-effective-strike#117087 and there is existing ruling on it, I'm assuming the ruling on Blood of the Cobra and Scorpion's touch still applies, the damage is not effective but the card is placed on the opposing minion.
>
Correct.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director