Does the secondary effect of Dismemberment of Osiris and of Praxis Seizure: Istanbul count as targeting a Banu Haqim or including a Banu Haqim in the terms of a referendum?
Dismemberment of Osiris
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Serpentis
[ser] Burn a titled vampire in torpor (this is not diablerie). Each ready vampire of the same clan as the titled vampire burns 1 blood.
[SER] As above, and the titled vampire's controller burns 1 pool.
Artist: Steve Ellis
Praxis Seizure: Istanbul
Cardtype: Political Action
Title. Requires a Camarilla vampire.
Successful referendum means this card is put on this vampire to represent the unique Camarilla title of Prince of Istanbul, and if this vampire is not a Banu Haqim, lock all Banu Haqim. In this referendum, each ready Banu Haqim gets +1 vote.
Artist: Mark Tedin
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
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Ah, yes
Yoruba Shrine
Cardtype: Master
Clan: Banu Haqim
Cost: 1 pool
Unique location.
If a ready Banu Haqim you control is the target of a directed action or is chosen by the acting Methuselah in the terms of a referendum, you can lock this location to unlock the acting minion and have the action or referendum fail. Only usable as the directed action is announced or during the polling step of the referendum before votes and ballots are cast.
Artist: James Stowe
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I am fairly certain the answer is yes to both cases, assuming the Yoruba shrine controller controls a ready Banu Haqim that would be affected by the successful referendum.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> the1andonlime wrote:
> Does the secondary effect of Dismemberment of Osiris and of Praxis Seizure: Istanbul count as targeting a Banu Haqim or including a Banu Haqim in the terms of a referendum?
>
The Banu Haqim is not selected or chosen, so no.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
It is chosen explicitly. "Lock all Banu Haqim". The condition is either true or false, which is evident at the time the political action is taken. So when the action is taken, it is clear whether or not it chooses and targets Banu Haqim. If the condition is true, then Yoruba Shrine could be used in my opinion.
Similar wording was ruled to be a d-action in the case of condemn the sins of the father. If a clan is chosen. then all members of the clan are chosen, and it is a d-action against all players who control any Banu Haqim simultaneously.
Although PS:I is not a directed action, Yoruba shrines wording extends the same effect to political referendums, and since the wording is the same, I dont see how it could not count as chosen. The condition does not change anything.
I am only expecting consistency with your previous rulings on similar cards.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
> It is chosen explicitly. "Lock all Banu Haqim".
>
It's the effect of the referendum, but it is not part of the terms. Praxis Seizure: Istanbul has no terms (terms are declared before "Successful referendum means".
Yoruba Shrine cares about being "chosen by the acting Methuselah in the terms of a referendum".
> Bloodartist wrote:
> Similar wording was ruled to be a d-action in the case of condemn the sins of the father. If a clan is chosen. then all members of the clan are chosen, and it is a d-action against all players who control any Banu Haqim simultaneously.
>
Correct, it is a action against "all younger vampires of the chosen clan".
That's why Yoruba Shrine works in that case.
But the OP is not about that card.
> I am only expecting consistency with your previous rulings on similar cards.
>
Political actions and actions are not the same, even if they look like having "similar" effects.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Bloodartist wrote:
> > It is chosen explicitly. "Lock all Banu Haqim".
> >
> It's the effect of the referendum, but it is not part of the terms. Praxis Seizure: Istanbul has no terms (terms are declared before "Successful referendum means".
>
> Yoruba Shrine cares about being "chosen by the acting Methuselah in the terms of a referendum".
>
> > Bloodartist wrote:
> > Similar wording was ruled to be a d-action in the case of condemn the sins of the father. If a clan is chosen. then all members of the clan are chosen, and it is a d-action against all players who control any Banu Haqim simultaneously.
> >
> Correct, it is a action against "all younger vampires of the chosen clan".
> That's why Yoruba Shrine works in that case.
>
> But the OP is not about that card.
>
> > I am only expecting consistency with your previous rulings on similar cards.
> >
> Political actions and actions are not the same, even if they look like having "similar" effects.
>
If I chose bani Haqim for Consanguineous Condemnation, can this vote be canceled by yoruba shrine?
Consanguineous Condemnation
Choose a clan. Successful referendum locks all vampires of that clan.
Okay, Yoruba says that if ONE Assamite is chosen... Osiris describes the direct action concerning the first vampire; the secondary effect, in my view, is not a direct action on other vampires of the same clan, but an effect of a successful action on the target vampire, which, if the target of the direct action is an Assamite, would allow the use of Yoruba. Regarding the effect of Praxis Istanbul, the card says that if the referendum passes, you choose a target and apply the card to them, which differs from cards like banishment where you choose a target and if the referendum passes, you resolve the effect, since the effect is directly for that vampire.
Just for context.
Yoruba Shrine
Master
Unique location.
If a ready Banu Haqim you control is the target of a directed action or is chosen by the acting Methuselah in the terms of a referendum, you can lock this location to unlock the acting minion and have the action or referendum fail. Only usable as the directed action is announced or during the polling step of the referendum before votes and ballots are cast.
vs
Dismemberment of Osiris
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Serpentis
[ser] Burn a titled vampire in torpor (this is not diablerie). Each ready vampire of the same clan as the titled vampire burns 1 blood.
[SER] As above, and the titled vampire's controller burns 1 pool.
Artist: Steve Ellis
and
Praxis Seizure: Istanbul
Cardtype: Political Action
Title. Requires a Camarilla vampire.
Successful referendum means this card is put on this vampire to represent the unique Camarilla title of Prince of Istanbul, and if this vampire is not a Banu Haqim, lock all Banu Haqim. In this referendum, each ready Banu Haqim gets +1 vote.
Artist: Mark Tedin
The "ready" part for the action card one is not applicable (vampire in torpor are not in ready region), "Each ready vampire of the same clan as the titled vampire burns 1 blood." part is not targeting any clan its a sub-step,while for political action, the effect is not part of terms, as terms are to place a title on a vampire. the result is under "IF" after resolution, once action is resolving. not on the "target" stage or part of referendum debate ( like Banishment ).
> Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> If I chose bani Haqim for Consanguineous Condemnation, can this vote be canceled by yoruba shrine?
>
No, you're choosing a clan.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Sorry to harp on it but I am still a little confused as to where the line is drawn
Condemn the Sins of the Father says "Choose a clan. <do stuff to vampires of that clan>" and Dismemberment of Osiris says "Burn a title vampire in torpor. <do stuff to vampires of the same clan>"
They feel to me like they are similar in targeting but you are saying no
So I am just curious as to how to apply the logic to here (and for other similar cards)
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
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> kschaefer wrote:
>
> > the1andonlime wrote:
> > Dismemberment of Osiris says "Burn a title vampire in torpor."
> >
> Yoruba Shrine only protects ready vampires.
>
That's not my point
My question is that if the shrine works for the "<do things to vampires of X>" for Condemn the Sins of the Father, why does it not work for "<do things to vampires of X>" for Dismemberment?
Suaku
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> the1andonlime wrote:
>
> > kschaefer wrote:
> >
> > > the1andonlime wrote:
> > > Dismemberment of Osiris says "Burn a title vampire in torpor."
> > >
> > Yoruba Shrine only protects ready vampires.
> >
> That's not my point
> My question is that if the shrine works for the "<do things to vampires of X>" for Condemn the Sins of the Father, why does it not work for "<do things to vampires of X>" for Dismemberment?
>
Because its does not meet the activation condition of targeting a ready vampire, in that Dismemberment is targeting a Not Ready vampire.
While Condemn Sins of the Father targets a Ready vampire.
Both affect ready vampires as effectively a secondary effect and both have the same sentence structure
Dismemberment primarily chooses a titled vampire in torpor
Condemn primarily chooses a clan
So if Yoruba works against the "secondary" effect of Condemn and not against that of Dismemberment, I would like to understand the rationale behind that
Your assertion about targetting "a" ready vampire would probably hold up stronger if Condemn says "Lock all younger ready vampires of a clan of your choosing" but it doesn't (designer intent is typically irrelevant to card text) and that matters once we get into the reeds
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
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> the1andonlime wrote:
> Sorry to harp on it but I am still a little confused as to where the line is drawn
>
> Condemn the Sins of the Father says "Choose a clan. <do stuff to vampires of that clan>" and Dismemberment of Osiris says "Burn a title vampire in torpor. <do stuff to vampires of the same clan>"
> They feel to me like they are similar in targeting but you are saying no
> So I am just curious as to how to apply the logic to here (and for other similar cards)
>
Just as a recap:
For political actions (Praxis Seizure: Istanbul), the terms are defined in the sentences before "Successful referendum means...".
For actions, the target (if any) is in the first sentence or first pair of sentences in the case of "Choose X. Do Y to X."
For instance, for Dismemberment of Osiris, the only target of the action is the titled vampire in torpor (first sentence). The second sentence is a consequence of the first.
Consider
Name: Kindred Spirits
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Dementation
[dem] Bleed any Methuselah. Gain 1 pool if the bleed is successful (for 1 or more).
[DEM] As above, with +1 bleed.
Even though you gain 1 pool, you're not the target of the action.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> the1andonlime wrote:
> Both affect ready vampires as effectively a secondary effect and both have the same sentence structure
>
> Dismemberment primarily chooses a titled vampire in torpor
> Condemn primarily chooses a clan
>
> So if Yoruba works against the "secondary" effect of Condemn and not against that of Dismemberment, I would like to understand the rationale behind that
>
> Your assertion about targetting "a" ready vampire would probably hold up stronger if Condemn says "Lock all younger ready vampires of a clan of your choosing" but it doesn't (designer intent is typically irrelevant to card text) and that matters once we get into the reeds
>
Think i see the issue.
Condemn is a Directed action, you declare Banu Haqim, it does not target one vampire, but all Banu Haqim, its still a Directed action.
Warning: Spoiler!
+1 stealth action.
Quietus Ⓓ Choose a clan. Lock all younger vampires of the chosen clan.
Superior Quietus As above, and each of those vampires burns 1 blood.
While text on the Shrine :" If a ready Banu Haqim you control is the target of a directed action"
Warning: Spoiler!
Unique location.
If a ready Banu Haqim you control is the target of a directed action or is chosen by the acting Methuselah in the terms of a referendum, you can lock this location to unlock the acting minion and have the action or referendum fail. Only usable as the directed action is announced or during the polling step of the referendum before votes and ballots are cast.
Thus the distinction.
*Edit*
Vampires in torpor are Not in Ready region, thus are Not Ready.
Warning: Spoiler!
Play Area
The area in front of each Methuselah is divided into two regions: the uncontrolled region (6), and the controlled region (7). The controlled region is further divided into two areas: the ready region (8) and the torpor region (9). Torpor is a special area for wounded vampires. As the game progresses, you will gain control of some of your minions, moving them to the ready region, face up.
Once case where Condemn cant be stopped with Shrine, is if all your Banu Haqim are in Torpor.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > If I chose bani Haqim for Consanguineous Condemnation, can this vote be canceled by yoruba shrine?
> >
> No, you're choosing a clan.
>
You really should get some courses in mathematical logic. It would help you tremendously in rulings like this, and making card texts.
Choosing a set that includes vampire A should count for choosing vampire A. That is only logical.
Note that Yoruba does not say that the BH has to be the only target. Only that the BH is chosen for some effect.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > Hobbesgoblin wrote:
> > > If I chose bani Haqim for Consanguineous Condemnation, can this vote be canceled by yoruba shrine?
> > >
> > No, you're choosing a clan.
> >
> You really should get some courses in mathematical logic. It would help you tremendously in rulings like this, and making card texts.
>
> Choosing a set that includes vampire A should count for choosing vampire A. That is only logical.
>
"Choose a clan" is not the same as "Choose all the vampires of a clan.", in which case I would agree with your reasoning.
See Clan Impersonation.
Name: Clan Impersonation
Cardtype: Action
Cost: 2 blood
+1 stealth action.
Choose a clan and put this card on the acting vampire. This vampire is considered to be of the chosen clan instead of his or her original clan (if any). This vampire can burn this card as an action.
Also, being rude doesn't help.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> mipopo3 wrote:
>
> > the1andonlime wrote:
> > Both affect ready vampires as effectively a secondary effect and both have the same sentence structure
> >
> > Dismemberment primarily chooses a titled vampire in torpor
> > Condemn primarily chooses a clan
> >
> > So if Yoruba works against the "secondary" effect of Condemn and not against that of Dismemberment, I would like to understand the rationale behind that
> >
> > Your assertion about targetting "a" ready vampire would probably hold up stronger if Condemn says "Lock all younger ready vampires of a clan of your choosing" but it doesn't (designer intent is typically irrelevant to card text) and that matters once we get into the reeds
> >
> Think i see the issue.
>
> Condemn is a Directed action, you declare Banu Haqim, it does not target one vampire, but all Banu Haqim, its still a Directed action.
>
> Warning: Spoiler!
>
> +1 stealth action.
> Quietus Ⓓ Choose a clan. Lock all younger vampires of the chosen clan.
> Superior Quietus As above, and each of those vampires burns 1 blood.
>
> While text on the Shrine :" If a ready Banu Haqim you control is the target of a directed action"
>
> Warning: Spoiler!
>
> Unique location.
> If a ready Banu Haqim you control is the target of a directed action or is chosen by the acting Methuselah in the terms of a referendum, you can lock this location to unlock the acting minion and have the action or referendum fail. Only usable as the directed action is announced or during the polling step of the referendum before votes and ballots are cast.
>
> Thus the distinction.
>
> *Edit*
> Vampires in torpor are Not in Ready region, thus are Not Ready.
>
> Warning: Spoiler!
>
> Play Area
>
> The area in front of each Methuselah is divided into two regions: the uncontrolled region (6), and the controlled region (7). The controlled region is further divided into two areas: the ready region (8) and the torpor region (9). Torpor is a special area for wounded vampires. As the game progresses, you will gain control of some of your minions, moving them to the ready region, face up.
>
> Once case where Condemn cant be stopped with Shrine, is if all your Banu Haqim are in Torpor.
>
You're still missing the point but Ankha has explained the logic behind the ruling, so we're good here
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Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
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