Combat sequence and prevention

Hi, My group has been playing prevention as occurring at the same time as strike resolution, with or without additional strikes, but reading the rule book it would appear that the intention is to resolve all strikes before you move on to prevention. Each strike is still taken separately for the purpose of per strike prevention (e.g. Rego Motum). If this is incorrect, can someone direct me to where it says this in the rulebook, as I've read through it and must be missing it if that's the case. For reference: Combat Sequence Combat occurs in a series of one or more rounds. Each round of combat has seven steps: 1. Before Range: Play cards before range is chosen. 2. Determine Range: Use maneuvers to change the range to close or long. 3. Before Strikes: Play cards before strikes are chosen. 4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes. 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. 6. Press: Use presses to continue into another round or to end combat. 7. End of Round: End of round cards and effects are played here.

5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. you chose will you prevent damage or not. if damage not prevented,you need to take damage. if you take more damage than you have blood or take aggravated damage,then you go to torpor and you move to 7. End of Round step. after take damage,if both combatants still ready,combatants can chose to play additional strikes(so you back to 4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes.)

Hi, It doesn't say this in the rules though, it even inferss the opposite: "Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards." Note that it says to do another choose strike and resolve strike step, it doesn't say to do an additional prevention step.

This works as I explain to you

> Fubarecognition wrote: > Hi, > > My group has been playing prevention as occurring at the same time as strike resolution, with or without additional strikes, but reading the rule book it would appear that the intention is to resolve all strikes before you move on to prevention. Each strike is still taken separately for the purpose of per strike prevention (e.g. Rego Motum). > Step 4 is: "4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes." The resolution of a damage-dealing strike (such as a hand strike or anything that deals damage) is to inflict damage. But you don't handle damage yet. That's why a "steal blood" strike moves the blood before you handle damage, since it steals blood as soon as the strike resolves, with no delay. Inflicted damage is handled in the next step: 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. There's an example of combat in the rulebook involving Chrysanthemum and a Underbridge Stray, you can read it. Here's another example: Vampires A and B are in combat. At close range, A and B announce a hand strike as their strike. Each strike resolves by inflicting 1 damage on the opposing vampire (step 4). In step 5, both vampires have 1 damage to handle, and can either play prevent damage cards, or mend the damage by burning blood. Additional strikes are used after step 5. For each additional pair of strikes, you have to repeat step 4 and 5. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > Step 4 is: "4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes." > > Step 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. > The issue here is that in the combat sequence damage resolution is given as a separate step from strike resolution. Yet the actual text speaks of damage as if damage resolution is part of strike resolution. Fubarecognition is correct in how they read the rules. In the section about additional strikes it only says that theres an "additional choose strike and resolve strike step". It does not mention damage resolution which should be its own step as well, since it is given as a separate step. So either the sequence needs to be rewritten to include damage resolution as part of strike resolution (I recommend this), or damage resolution needs to be added to the part about additional strikes. I know how it is DONE. The problem is that rules as written do a poor job describing how it is done. Rulebook is not Advice about how to play the game, its supposed to define how the game is played. Explicitly. ps. And combat is still not its own separate chapter searchable from the index, despite being by far the most complicated part of the game as far as rules are concerned. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > Step 4 is: "4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes." > > > > Step 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. > > > The issue here is that in the combat sequence damage resolution is given as a separate step from strike resolution. Yet the actual text speaks of damage as if damage resolution is part of strike resolution. > Please quote the relevant part. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Bloodartist wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > Step 4 is: "4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes." > > > > > > Step 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. > > > > > > > > The issue here is that in the combat sequence damage resolution is given as a separate step from strike resolution. Yet the actual text speaks of damage as if damage resolution is part of strike resolution. > > > Please quote the relevant part. > Short: Rulebook says combat has seven steps and references strikes in plural in one step before damage resolution in following step. Englanti ei ole kaikille äidinkieli vaan saattaa aiheuttaa väärinkäsityksiä mikäli kääntäjä ei osaa kääntää sanamuotoja oikein. Long; ass ramble, sorry in advance. I'm assuming they're referring to this part; www.vekn.net/rulebook/4-detailed-turn-sequence#combat with the rulebook's "combat sequence" > > Combat Sequence > > Combat occurs in a series of one or more rounds. Each round of combat has seven steps: > > 1. Before Range: Play cards before range is chosen. > > 2. Determine Range: Use maneuvers to change the range to close or long. > > 3. Before Strikes: Play cards before strikes are chosen. > > 4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes. > > 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. > > 6. Press: Use presses to continue into another round or to end combat. > > 7. End of Round: End of round cards and effects are played here. > where step number 4 is strike and step number five is damage resolution. Note how this contradicts earlier years in spirit www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary where whole strike was encompassed inside 6.4.3 with prevent being part of strike resolution in 6.4.3.2 instead being it's own "step" with additional strikes being able to be gained at 6.4.3.3, clearly after the prevent. HOW TO RESOLVE A COMBAT [6.4] NOTE: Combat cannot occur between two minions with the same controller. [6.4] NOTE: Combat can only occur between two ready minions. [6.4] NOTE: If either of the combatants is burned or goes to torpor during the course of combat, combat ends (go to step VI.E). [6.4.3] NOTE: The only minion cards that can be played during combat are combat cards, and those can be played only by the minions involved in the combat. Round begins. NOTE: "As combat is entered" and "before range is determined" effects can only be used in this step (the former only in the first round). Determine (set) range. Each round begins at close range. [6.4.2] Either minion may maneuver to change the range. Acting minion gets the first opportunity, as always. A minion cannot use maneuvers to go to long range and to go to close range in the same round (that is, the minion cannot "cancel" his own maneuvers). A strike card that has an optional maneuver may be played during this step. If a weapon or a strike card is used to maneuver, the minion using the maneuver must use that card for his first strike of the round. [6.4.3.1] NOTE: Only one weapon/strike card may be used to maneuver by a minion. Strike. [6.4.3] Minions announce their strikes (and targets, if applicable). [6.4.3.1] Acting minion announces strike and target first. [6.4.3] A ranged strike can target the opposing minion's retainer if the range is long. [6.4.7] Strike modifiers must be played now (or earlier) to be effective. [RTR] Resolve strikes. [6.4.3.2] Strikes resolve in the following order. If both strikes are in the same class, then they resolve simultaneously. NOTE: Dodge doesn't resolve; it cancels the effect of the opposing strike on the dodging minion and non-retainer cards on him. [6.4.5] Strike: Combat Ends. [6.4.5] (go to step E). Any other effect from this strike is applied after combat ends (except unlocking, which is normally done before combat ends by card text). Any strike done with first strike. (resolve steps b,c before moving on to step iii). [6.4.5] Any other strikes. (resolve steps b,c) Apply effects of strike(s). Effects are applied simultaneously if the strikes are both of the same type (from step a). NOTE: Strikes are only effective at close range, by default. [6.4.3.2] Inflict damage. Damage isn't handled until step c. [6.4.6] Destroy equipment. Burn one equipment card on the opposing minion. [6.4.5] Steal equipment. Move one equipment card from the opposing minion to this minion. [6.4.5] NOTE: Stolen equipment cannot be used on the round it is stolen. Steal blood. Removes blood/life from the opponent and places it on this vampire. Blood in excess of this vampire's capacity is burned immediately. Stolen blood may be used in step c. [6.4.5] Combat Ends. End combat. This effect works at any range. [6.4.5] Dodge. See note to (2.a) above. Prevent damage and then resolve any unprevented damage (VII). Combatants have the option to gain additional strikes. [6.4.3.3] Resolve steps 1-2 above for each additional strike. [6.4.3.3] Presses. Each round defaults to "end combat". [6.4.4] Either minion may press to change the conclusion of the round (which is either "to end combat" or "to continue to another round"). Acting minion gets the first opportunity, as always. A minion cannot use presses to continue and to end in the same round (that is, the minion cannot "cancel" his own presses). Round Ends. [6.4.4] Apply any end-of-round effects. If the press step ended with "to continue", then another round begins (Go back to step A). Combat Ends. [6.4.7] Now to my understanding this is just matter of new rulebook's text being less then optimal in conveying how damage is not it's own step that happens after all strikes (note the plural, that might throw some non-native speakers off, after all two strikes (one from each, a pair), three strikes (one from each, one additional from one) and twenty additional strikes are all strikes instead singular strike.) I would include it to be one of those things that was thrown along the baby and the bathwater and was so obvious for proof readers that it's only now being lifted up as issue as we all *know* how to play the game. It does not help that the correct road requires piecing together separate parts in the rulebook by combining; > ... Normally, each minion gets only one strike per round. One strike from each minion is considered a “pair”. > > ADVANCED RULES > > Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat, these are resolved after the normal pair of strikes. If only one minion has additional strikes these are resolved on their own after the normal pair of strikes. > > During each pair of strikes, the minions first choose their respective strikes (the acting minion first, then their opponent), and then the strikes are resolved. Strike resolution occurs simultaneously, except for a few special cases (see Strike Effects). ... > for Advanced Rules box with "after normal pair of strikes". and > > Resolve Strike: The effects of the strikes from both minions are resolved simultaneously. Most strikes are effective only at close range, unless the strike is identified as ranged, does “R” damage, or is a defensive strike such as dodge or combat ends. Ranged strikes and strikes that do “R” damage can be used at any range, close or long. > > When a minion or retainer takes damage (either from a strike or from other means), they must burn blood or life, as appropriate (see Damage Resolution). Note that the effects of a strike are applied and then damage is resolved. This timing is important for some special strikes. If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready, because one has taken too much damage, for instance, then the round and the combat end immediately. > > This is true at any point during combat, not just during strike resolution. > for "The effects of the strikes from both minions are resolved simultaneously. ... When a minion or retainer takes damage (either from a strike or from other means), they must burn blood or life, as appropriate (see Damage Resolution). Note that the effects of a strike are applied and then damage is resolved. This timing is important for some special strikes. If one or both of the combatants are no longer ready, because one has taken too much damage, for instance, then the round and the combat end immediately." and > > ADVANCED RULES > > If a strike card is cancelled, the minion who played it must choose a strike, which might come from another strike card. > > Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed. The acting minion decides whether or not to gain additional strikes before the opposing minion, as usual. > > Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards. All additional strikes take place at the same range. This is repeated as necessary. A minion cannot use more than one card or effect to gain additional strikes per round of combat. This rule is reminded on those cards by the “(limited)” card text. > for "Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards. All additional strikes take place at the same range. This is repeated as necessary." and > > 5. Damage Resolution > > Damage resolution has two steps: prevent damage and mend damage. > > First, the minion taking damage can play combat cards that prevent damage. These damage prevention cards are played one at a time until all the damage is prevented or until the minion chooses not to play any more. Any unprevented damage is successfully inflicted. The damage is then mended, if the victim is a vampire, or burns life counters, if the victim is an ally or a retainer. > for "5. Damage Resolution Damage resolution has two steps: prevent damage and mend damage." to realize that whole concept of amount of steps in combat is fluid, as while one part of rulebook claims with it's combat sequence claims there are seven steps, step number five suddenly devices to add more steps in. And that like in any stairway, it's natural to move up and down the steps, which has not been at any point worded in the rulebook as the wording instead simply says "see Damage Resolution" which in nowhere in it states one can go "back" to previous steps to gain "additional strikes" This can lead to misunderstanding where one mistakes requirement to resolve all strikeS from combatants as happening on the 4th step of combat with results that are then tallied at step 5. Easy fix is to remove whole step 5 from combat sequence and place damage resolution where it should be at the end of every strike resolution with additional entry part covering things like Outside the hourglass or Wendell Deburton etc in "www.vekn.net/rulebook/8-glossaries" stating "Damage: Inflicted Damage needs to be handled before game can move onwards." That enables cutting down the two "Advanced rules" part regarding additional strikes into one that is placed logically *after* the combat damage prevention to show the new players they need to first handle the first pair of strikes, damage prevention and everything, before they can gain additional strikes that are handled in the combat sequence step 4. Or just update the detailed play summary to match 2025 VEKN rules so it can be tossed as "If/then/else/elseif and so forth" for where people do not need to ponder how rulebook's text is interpreted when translated but can follow simple steps with www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/82396-queued-combats?start=0#114683 being good example. But it will not remove the possibility of the whole combat sequence step mistake being repeated, so both would be preferable. Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

> Kilrauko wrote: > Short: Rulebook says combat has seven steps and references strikes in plural in one step before damage resolution in following step. > So far, so good. The resolution of the strikes happens before the damage resolution step. > Kilrauko wrote: > Note how this contradicts earlier years in spirit www.vekn.net/detailed-play-summary where whole strike was encompassed inside 6.4.3 with prevent being part of strike resolution in 6.4.3.2 instead being it's own "step" with additional strikes being able to be gained at 6.4.3.3, clearly after the prevent. > The thing is that as soon as damage is inflicted, it opens a damage resolution window. Whether that window opens in the same step or its own step right afterwards does not change anything. For clarity (because strike resolution and damage resolution are handled sequentially), it is listed as its own step "5. Damage resolution". In the detailed-play-summary, they are listed in two different sequential steps (not showing in your quote because you lost the bullet points): "6.4.3.2.b Apply effects of strike(s)." and "6.4.3.2.c Prevent damage and then resolve any unprevented damage". > Kilrauko wrote: > Now to my understanding this is just matter of new rulebook's text being less then optimal in conveying how damage is not it's own step that happens after all strikes (note the plural, that might throw some non-native speakers off, after all two strikes (one from each, a pair), three strikes (one from each, one additional from one) and twenty additional strikes are all strikes instead singular strike.) > Given the context, and the additional rule "Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat, these are resolved after the normal pair of strikes.", it is clear what "strikes" mean here. We could enforce the use of "pair of strikes", but it is not necessary. > Kilrauko wrote: > This can lead to misunderstanding where one mistakes requirement to resolve all strikeS from combatants as happening on the 4th step of combat with results that are then tallied at step 5. > It's hard to guess why people read it wrong. But given it's the first time someone reads it this way, I don't think it's an issue. If the reader has issues with English, the best is to redirect them to the translated rulebook. > Kilrauko wrote: > Easy fix is ... > I don't think it needs fixing, but in any case, you can suggest rulebook changes there: github.com/GiottoVerducci/rulebook2024 Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > Step 4 is: "4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes." > > > > Step 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. > > > The issue here is that in the combat sequence damage resolution is given as a separate step from strike resolution. Yet the actual text speaks of damage as if damage resolution is part of strike resolution > Simple thing to understand here - damage is dealt as part of strike resolution (step 4). But no blood counters are moved yet. In the next step (step 5), you either prevent that damage, or burn blood to heal the damage. Damage itself doesn't instantly mean burning blood counters. Healing / mending the damage does. And after both these steps are done, you get to gain additional strike(s).

> Ankha wrote: > The thing is that as soon as damage is inflicted, it opens a damage resolution window. Whether that window opens in the same step or its own step right afterwards does not change anything. > Except the rules as written don't say that. It mentions damage resolution, but I dont see mention that each strike resolution has its own damage resolution window. Making damage resolution its own step further emphasizes the idea that these are handled sequentially instead of together. Please quote the relevant section where it says each damage inflicted opens a damage resolution window? The rules say that damage must be mended, but it doesn't say when. Therefore the original question about whether all strikes are resolved first before mending the damage is sound. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > The thing is that as soon as damage is inflicted, it opens a damage resolution window. Whether that window opens in the same step or its own step right afterwards does not change anything. > > > Except the rules as written don't say that. > Because this is relevant only for damage not inflicted during the strike resolution, such as Outside the Hourglass. These cases are covered by the rulings. In all cases, the damage resolution happens after the damage have been inflicted. This is sequential. Whether both happens sequentially during the same step or sequentially because of two successive steps is the same, the separation is purely cosmetic. The rulebook uses two steps for convenience, and it's perfectly valid. > Bloodartist wrote: > It mentions damage resolution, but I dont see mention that each strike resolution has its own damage resolution window. Making damage resolution its own step further emphasizes the idea that these are handled sequentially instead of together. > Correct, strike resolution and damage resolution are handled sequentially. > Bloodartist wrote: > Please quote the relevant section where it says each damage inflicted opens a damage resolution window? > See above. The only case covered is the usual one, which is damage inflicted during strike resolution. For more cornercase scenarios, a ruling is provided, based on the general principle I have outlined. > Bloodartist wrote: > The rules say that damage must be mended, but it doesn't say when > In step 5 which is quite logically described as "5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage.". > Bloodartist wrote: > . Therefore the original question about whether all strikes are resolved first before mending the damage is sound. > How do you jump for a pair of strikes to "all strikes" without some logical fallacy? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

It would be clearer if there was a step between 5 and 6 where additional strikes are gained and if so moves the combat back to step 4. Additionally it would be good to introduce the fact about damage that is inflicted has to always be handled, and when not from strikes it is to be handled in the current phase/step following the normal sequencing rule i.e. other effects can be played but the damage has to be handled before passing or moving to the next phase/step of the game.

> Ankha wrote: > The thing is that as soon as damage is inflicted, it opens a damage resolution window. Whether that window opens in the same step or its own step right afterwards does not change anything. For clarity (because strike resolution and damage resolution are handled sequentially), it is listed as its own step "5. Damage resolution". > In the detailed-play-summary, they are listed in two different sequential steps (not showing in your quote because you lost the bullet points): "6.4.3.2.b Apply effects of strike(s)." and "6.4.3.2.c Prevent damage and then resolve any unprevented damage". > Yes, we are in agreement, I pondered about using code quote for it but figured people would just head to check detailed play summary to confirm if needed the earlier structure when compared to the current. But I think we both are in agreement there are currently 3 ADVANCED RULES boxes in bright red dealing with additional strikes nestled across one step of combat. Whether or not that's most clear to new players is not really up to us to decide as we do not know how they feel about it. What I do know is how attention fatigue affects marketing efficiency when repeated with similar stimulus, the additional strike parts are number 20, 21 and 22 in the rulebook. Out of 28. And without red highlight they are number 22,23 and 24 due to choice how some advanced rules sections are highlighted with grey and some with red for some logic. I'm assuming it's due to error in the transfer from pdf master to the www.vekn.net/rulebook or other way around. Either way we can assume it being page 20+ people wishing to just "play the game" are going to be skimming large swathes of text. Hence why the whole Combat Sequence 1-7 is good concise less then quarter page whammo. However it has "strikes" in it. > Ankha wrote: > Given the context, and the additional rule "Some cards may allow a minion to get additional strikes during a round of combat, these are resolved after the normal pair of strikes.", it is clear what "strikes" mean here. We could enforce the use of "pair of strikes", but it is not necessary. > I would argue the fact that OP question even arose is clear indication that it is not so clear. You need to remember that among the first sentences in the rulebook is the following; > > . To make it easier to learn the rules, some of them appear in "Advanced rules" sections. Although they are an integral part of the game, we recommend new players to skip them whilst they learn the basic game. > So you cannot blame the reader for not figuring out the correct order of steps when they've been ordered to ignore part of it required to understand it. Whether that warrants any action or addition of "pair of strikes" to condensed "Combat Sequence 1-7" is another matter totally and not up to the community to decide but neither it is up to the rulemonger to claim everyone can understand rules as clearly as they do. This is why I pointed earlier "we all *know* how to play the game" confirmation bias out. And why it's super helpful to get/pay total random persons not related to matter to take any rulebook/manual/info leaflet and just pay attention how they parse and understand it. Have them then explain it out so one can pinpoint where things are not so clear after all for whatever reason. > Ankha wrote: > It's hard to guess why people read it wrong. But given it's the first time someone reads it this way, I don't think it's an issue. If the reader has issues with English, the best is to redirect them to the translated rulebook. > I would argue it's the first time someone has raised the issue in VEKN forum after they've first created the account here. If we extrapolate how active this forum is compared to say, discord, compared to say, how much produce is being sold globally, then see what percent of the year that one post makes it most likely will result in more then one misunderstandings of the rules as designed. Now whether or not that constitutes reason to do anything is, like before, completely up to the designers and not the community. > Ankha wrote: > I don't think it needs fixing, but in any case, you can suggest rulebook changes there: github.com/GiottoVerducci/rulebook2024 > I personally prefer to keep VEKN related things as much as possible in official VEKN site. I trust as better authority on the game design/ rules you've understood the point I tried to help pinpoint and then made value judgement based on it. If rulebook text needs further tweaking, so be it, but personally I would prefer the time resources related to it be used to get detailed play summary up to current date in next couple years when major new mechanics have been settled (Looking at you queue, stun and paths at least.) After that it should be easy to get new physical rulebook ready to be released for 35th anniversary/sixth edition along with dyslexia fonted and accessibility checked online variation. With VEKN embracing the online games I wouldn't be surprised if there unseen demand for it and it's somewhat easy to achieve with few tests to ensure simple NVDA screen reader (or whatever it is that's widely used then) compatibility. Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

> Ankha wrote: > Because this is relevant only for damage not inflicted during the strike resolution, such as Outside the Hourglass. These cases are covered by the rulings. > The basic rulebook should cover all the cases within itself. Not assume that the player needs to go to god knows where to find out individual rulings. You are intentionally allowing corner cases to exist by not defining the rules exactly. I see literally no benefit in this. One should define the rules in a way to minimize the needed individual rulings and corner cases. You repeatedly refuse to do this because you don't deem it necessary. For several years now, I have tried to make Black Chantry realize that they are in a position where they can rewrite the rules of VTES. Why not use this opportunity to get rid of the problematic rulings and streamline everything? No, no, we must not touch the rules since the game has always been confusing and not beginner-friendly and it must stay this way. > In all cases, the damage resolution happens after the damage have been inflicted. This is sequential. Whether both happens sequentially during the same step or sequentially because of two successive steps is the same, the separation is purely cosmetic. > Yes, this is a recurring theme with you. First you give something that you say is purely cosmetic, then you refer to the same thing as a rule afterwards. How is it even humanly possible not to see this as a problem? Unless it is intentional obfuscation. It is convenient, convenient for YOU, since you are the one making the rulings. It is convenient to give the rule as vague as possible since then you can interpret it any which way. In my local vtes community it is an often stated fact that people should not try to learn VTES from a rulebook, they should listen to veteran players instead. Perhaps this is another sign that the rulebook is not up to par. > > Bloodartist wrote: > > Please quote the relevant section where it says each damage inflicted opens a damage resolution window? > > > See above. The only case covered is the usual one, which is damage inflicted during strike resolution. For more cornercase scenarios, a ruling is provided, based on the general principle I have outlined. > You have not answered the question. > > Bloodartist wrote: > > The rules say that damage must be mended, but it doesn't say when > > > In step 5 which is quite logically described as "5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage." > Misinterpreted my sentence. Lets try again: When does that step happen? Where is it said that you get a damage resolution step for each individual strike resolution step? Oh wait, you said that steps are purely cosmetic. So which is it? > How do you jump for a pair of strikes to "all strikes" without some logical fallacy? > With All strikes I am referring to all strikes during a round, ie. "initial plus additional strikes". I have already detailed how you can arrive to this conclusion. You are just refusing the see the issue. "There is no person more blind than the one who refuses to see." Strike resolution is given as a separate step from damage resolution. This is defining, since steps are not mentioned elsewhere. Section about additional strikes mentions that you get additional strike resolution steps, but nowhere is it said that you get an additional damage resolution step, or that strike and damage resolution are always paired together. This is because the rest of text does not mention 'steps'. Therefore it is quite possible to interpret the text in a way that you get multiple strike resolution steps and ONE damage resolution step, since damage resolution FOR SOME REASON is not part of strike resolution. It would be extremely simple matter to make damage resolution part of strike resolution, then it would be impossible to separate the two and make this mistake. But, once again, you refuse to take the simple and explicit route. The text should refer only to things that it has defined earlier. Since the combat sequence is the only place where steps are mentioned, that's what we are looking at. The rest of the text says that strikes effects are applied and damage is mended, but it does not talk about steps. I find that most arguments arise from people lacking the imagination to see the other possible interpretations. Go ahead please: make some questionnaires to people who are not already VTES players to see how they would interpret the rules. ps. Extremely ironic that you of all people talk about logic. pps. "I dont change the rules since people are not complaining enough." What a great attitude. What am I then? Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Because this is relevant only for damage not inflicted during the strike resolution, such as Outside the Hourglass. These cases are covered by the rulings. > > > The basic rulebook should cover all the cases within itself. > I think we can stop there. I understand the rulebook is not what you'd like it to be. There's always a tradeoff between how complete we want it to be, and how friendly we want it to be. Not all the cases are covered of purpose. It is designed to help players getting started, hence the "advanced rules" that help players skip some parts when learning how to play. The rulebook has already been rewritten with this in mind when the V5 was launched. If you want something that looks like the comprehensive rules in Magic ( The Comprehensive Rules of Magic is a reference document that holds all of the rules and possible corner cases found in Magic. It is NOT meant to be read beginning to end; instead it's meant to be consulted when specific rules questions come into play. ), it doesn't exist as is. We're using rulings instead. Rulings are being gathered in shared resources such as the KRCG that are in turn available in Discord, VDB etc. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Hi Ankha, > It's hard to guess why people read it wrong. But given it's the first time someone reads it this way, I don't think it's an issue. If the reader has issues with English, the best is to redirect them to the translated rulebook. > To clarify, I am a native English speaker. My understanding of how it is written is not incorrect, but rather the intention of the writing. I will attempt to make what I am saying clear: 4. Strike: Announce and resolve strikes. 5. Damage Resolution: Prevent and mend damage. and Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed... The advanced rules say that additional strikes must be performed after strikes are completed. As step 5 makes no mention of being a completion of strikes, the strike phase of combat is the logical place to stop to move on to additional strikes without any additional information, as it even uses the word "resolve" which is used as a synonym of "complete" ...Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards The rules even explicitly say that Additional strikes are only an extra strike and resolve strike step, which further confuses the matter. All cases do not need to be covered, merely a change to the Advanced rules for additional strikes to change from: Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced and performed only after the first pair of strikes is completed... To: Additional Strikes: Some cards and effects allow a minion to make additional strikes during the current round of combat. Additional strikes are announced and performed only after step 4 and step 5 have been completed for the initial pair of strikes.... And: ...Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards To: ...Additional strikes are handled by having another choose strike step and resolve strike step in which only the minions with additional strikes may play strike cards, followed by another prevent and mend step for each additional strike/set of strikes. I think a lot of mixups get cleared up by the players who have been playing for a long time, and as a result rules that might be unclear aren't necessarily getting reported. It was not my intention to cause any arguments here, I am in no way trying to anger anyone over rules, I was more just trying to ask if the rules were as my group were saying, and if some wording could be changed to reflect it for newer players.

Just throwing my experience here with this same issue (non-native english, but that shouldn't affect my understanding here). When I got back to VTES after several years of hiatus, when reading this part of the new rulebook, I was wondering if something had been done to additional strikes and damage handling because I recalled they worked differently when I played before. Then I got confirmation when playing with my group that everything is as it was before, the rules just give impression that all strikes are handled before damage prevention. In the rulebook, everything concerning additional strikes is contained within the explanation of Combat Step 4. There is no mention about Additional strikes in the explanation of Combat Step 5. Thus from rulebook, I understood that ALL strikes, including additional ones, are played in step 4 and then the game moves to step 5. The example in the rulebook step 4 is a bad one (to clarify this) because during the initial strike neither combatant deals damage, and thus the damage step (and especially prevention) is not explicitly handled before moving to additional strikes. So it is still unclear from the example if damage is handled after each strike, or only at the end of all strikes (including additional ones). The changes that Fubarecognition mentions above would probably clear things enough to clear the misunderstanding. In fact, as an old player, I would like to have the additional strikes shown in the initial numbered list (for example, in parenthesis as 4a 5a, 4b 5b). I'm not sure why they are relegated to advanced rules section, because there are multiple cards in several current v5 decks that have additional strikes and they are normal part of current v5 combat. But just clearing those few sentences above would go a long way to explicitly clarify to everyone how the situation should go.

And year after year we keep on wondering why the game has difficulties attracting new players. All the while even veteran players seem to be arguing over such basic concepts as combat sequence... *sigh* Finnish Politics!