Self-contest equipment after banishment

Hello, from the discord as we are not reaching a consensus my vampire A is equipped with an Ivory Bow, then that vampire got a Banishment. While vampire A is uncontrolled I play a second Ivory box with vampire B, as the Ivory bow is not "in play" But I like my vampire A, so I influence vampire A back, and with that vampire it comes a second copy of Ivory bow Options we have discussed in discord: A -> you are not allowed to influence vampire A back as that would make a voluntary self-contest of the Ivory Bow B-> you can influence vampire A, when it comes into play, the Ivory bow of vampire A burns automatically. B1 -> In case B is the correct one, is the Ivory bow on vampire B out of the game till my next unlock phase as it was contested ? or the ivory bow on vampire B is still there ready to use?

Almost sure that the ivory bow on the banished Vampire A was still "in play", only on a vampire in uncontroled region, and if i'm correct you can't play a second ivory bow on Vampire B, and if another matuselah play ivory bow on one of they vampires will contest with uncontroled ivory bow that belongs to vampire A David Resende - Prince of Teresina

No, that's the part we are sure, when the vampire is uncontrolled, all the cards are out of game and not contest with anyone.

> DavidR wrote: > Almost sure that the ivory bow on the banished Vampire A was still "in play", only on a vampire in uncontroled region, and if i'm correct you can't play a second ivory bow on Vampire B, and if another matuselah play ivory bow on one of they vampires will contest with uncontroled ivory bow that belongs to vampire A > Card attached to the banished vampire are out of play by explicit card text. Banishment [Political Action] Banishment Choose a ready younger vampire. Successful referendum means the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects); any cards and counters on the chosen vampire stay with them but are out of play as long as the chosen vampire remains uncontrolled.

Whenever you force a card into play (Vast wealth, Repo man...) when it is not allowed to enter play, that card is immediately burned. When the vampire enters into play, it is also putting into play the ivory bow. And it is immediately burned.

The opposing argument was that you are prohibited from bringing your vampire into play again, because your second Ivory Bow would contest - and you are forbidden from self-contestation.

> Rulebook wrote: > You cannot control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot voluntarily contest cards with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card). > Okay. After rereading the rule, I have to agree with that argument. You are not being forced to put a contested card in play. You are voluntarily bringing it to play. So I would say that you can't bring that vampire into play because you would voluntarily contest your ivory bow. But let's see what Ankha says.

> Coyote wrote: > > > Rulebook wrote: > > You cannot control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot voluntarily contest cards with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card). > > > Okay. After rereading the rule, I have to agree with that argument. You are not being forced to put a contested card in play. You are voluntarily bringing it to play. > > So I would say that you can't bring that vampire into play because you would voluntarily contest your ivory bow. > > But let's see what Ankha says. > No, that rule prevents you from bringing out banished Arika while you control non banished Arika. The Logic that you cannot self contest ivory bow because it is on banished vampire falls flat once you read what the card says and think it logically. Name: Banishment [DS:U2, FN:PS, CE:PTo/PV, KMW:PAn2, LoB:PG, SP:PoS2, 25th:2, NB2:PBH1, 30th:2] Cardtype: Political Action Choose a ready younger vampire. Successful referendum means the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects); any cards and counters on the chosen vampire stay with them but are out of play as long as the chosen vampire remains uncontrolled. Artist: Steve Casper Cards and counters are out of play as long as the chosen vampire remains uncontrolled. Out of play means just that, they are effectively just like all the other cards you have in your collection at home with exception that they are staying with the vampire. And once you control the vampire they are, per the golden rule of cards, no longer out of play. You are not bringing them in, the Banishment is. Influencing is the voluntary action. You do not influence ivory bow. Ivory bow coming back due to Banishment is not voluntary effect, if it was, the card text would reflect it with "... owner may choose to keep the cards and counters out of play." Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

That's like telling the judge that I didn't voluntarily kill someone when I pushed them out of a ninth-story window. It was gravity. Logical-wise, if you influence a vampire with a banishment, you're voluntarily going to bring back everything on them. On a block. Not by steps. Rules-wise, on a RAW level, only voluntariness matters.

I do not think the influencing is checking any of the items the (Banished) vampire may have. When it comes (back) into play, any items it had also do so and only then we start checking for Uniqueness. Finnish Politics!

The rules prevent you from voluntarily contesting something with yourself. Before the influence rule change, you could put enough blood on a vampire to reach their capacity, then let the mandatory effect bring out the vampire at the end of the round. Now, this is no longer possible due to the fact that putting the vampire in play is now a voluntary action taken during the influence phase. The other ways to bring out a vampire voluntarily were Under Influence at [qui], Chain of Command, Eternal Mask (among other), and it has been made clear you cannot do it on vampires you control already. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/G4eOS1uKwss/m/gmeUahxE_Q0J groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/0vdR3V8Rwck/m/wD2TYroHSzMJ groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/-k869Xz4rj8/m/keDevivx8UMJ However, the case of unique cards on the vampire that would come in play has never been considered. It would make sense to prevent the vampire with the unique card on them to come back in play, but it would be an extremely stupid ruling game-wise (especially if people start playing Charnas and banishing your vampire so they can never come back). So... > acbishop wrote: > my vampire A is equipped with an Ivory Bow, then that vampire got a Banishment. > > While vampire A is uncontrolled I play a second Ivory box with vampire B, as the Ivory bow is not "in play" > > But I like my vampire A, so I influence vampire A back, and with that vampire it comes a second copy of Ivory bow > > Options we have discussed in discord: > > A -> you are not allowed to influence vampire A back as that would make a voluntary self-contest of the Ivory Bow > > B-> you can influence vampire A, when it comes into play, the Ivory bow of vampire A burns automatically. > > B1 -> In case B is the correct one, is the Ivory bow on vampire B out of the game till my next unlock phase as it was contested ? or the ivory bow on vampire B is still there ready to use? > Option B. B1: the incoming copy on A is immediately burned and the copy on B stays in game. I'll update the rulebook to clarify this => github.com/GiottoVerducci/rulebook2024/tree/self-contest-unique-cards-on-banished-vampire Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

@Ankha Another case of self contest. This time with a title. Player A has a vampire Tremere (or whatever non malkavian clan) Justicar That vampire becomes Malkavian because of Derange and loses his title. Player A gets another Tremere Justicar (in whatever way. Influencing, political action...) Player A moves "Derange" from his first Tremere Justicar vampire to another vampire. Now Player A has 2 Tremere Justicar. I read the update to the rules to avoid self contesting in case of a vampire being re-influenced. I feel it is too narrow. And sure that more specific situations like this one can arise in the future with new cards. By the way, I am not sure why the rule to avoid self contesting works like it works. Sure there is a reason. But I feel that it would be easier if you permit to self contesting. Adding the rule that "in case of contest, if you are contesting with your self, burn immediately the contested card most recent entered in play you control" Is there anyway that I don't know that self contesting and burning self contested cards could be exploited? Derange Derange This is a +1 stealth action. Ⓓ Put this card on a younger vampire. The vampire with this card is considered to be the same clan and sect as the acting vampire. The vampire with this card does not unlock as normal. During his or her controller's unlock phase, he or she may burn 1 blood to unlock. The vampire with this card may move it to another vampire as a Ⓓ action. This card cannot be placed on a Malkavian or Malkavian antitribu.

The rule prohibiting self-contest does not apply to titles. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Interesting. I totally overlooked this. > and you cannot voluntarily contest cards with yourself > I understand that when you self contest a title, that title is nullified on your vampires until your next unlock, when all your vampires contesting the title may yield except one that would get the title uncontested. And you could even pay with all/any contesting vampires to keep self contesting (only god knows why, but I am just thinking about the rules.) Thanks for your answers, Ankha. I have been playing only for two years and some uncommon details and hard to realize.

Vampire A have an Ivory, and Vampire B (from another Methuselah) also has an Ivory. The Ivory is contested. If a banishment is played on Vampire A, from what I read, there's no contested (at least until he's influenced). Is that correct? And if instead of a unique equipment, it's a master team (for example, Fame), is the system the same?

> Glinlos wrote: > Vampire A have an Ivory, and Vampire B (from another Methuselah) also has an Ivory. > The Ivory is contested. > If a banishment is played on Vampire A, from what I read, there's no contested (at least until he's influenced). > Is that correct? > And if instead of a unique equipment, it's a master team (for example, Fame), is the system the same? > Yes, the contest ends and during vampire B's controllers unlock phase the ivory bow is turned face up if there's no longer contest for it. Banishment has a text where cards are moved to out of play and you do not contest out of play cards unless explicitly told so via cardtext. Hence per Banishments cardtext "any cards and counters on the chosen vampire" are affected that way. Name: Banishment [DS:U2, FN:PS, CE:PTo/PV, KMW:PAn2, LoB:PG, SP:PoS2, 25th:2, NB2:PBH1, 30th:2] Cardtype: Political Action Choose a ready younger vampire. Successful referendum means the chosen vampire is moved to the uncontrolled region (breaking any temporary control effects); any cards and counters on the chosen vampire stay with them but are out of play as long as the chosen vampire remains uncontrolled. Artist: Steve Casper Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.