Will Erlik be given blood by Illusions of the Kindred in time to use his cardtext ability and move 5 of those counters to the uncontrolled region?
My understanding of cards worded with complete sentences and full stops, like Rötschreck, is that each operation is atomic (and interruptable).
Does that imply separate timing windows for each operation?
Meaning
- Illusions is played
- Combat ends
- Erlik enters play (cardtext triggers here)
- Erlik is filled to capacity
- New combat occurs
Or is Erlik already filled to capacity when he enters play, and his cardtext is usable in this scenario?
> Illusions of the Kindred
>
> Only usable before range is determined.
>
> Combat ends. Move the bottom card from your crypt to your ready region. That minion does not contest any other minions or titles in play. That vampire gains blood equal to half their capacity rounded down. That vampire and the opposing minion enter combat. Remove that minion from the game at the end of combat (if they are still in play).
>
> As above, but that vampire gains blood equal to their capacity.
>
> Erlik
>
> Sabbat
> As Erlik enters play, you can distribute up to 5 blood from him to any of your uncontrolled Harbingers of Skulls. +1 bleed. +1 hand size.
>
not sure but seens to me that he will enter play with full capacity, distribute 5 blood then fight with the another 5 bloods, no?
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
The effect "That vampire gains blood" happens in the "Enter play" window.
You can arrange the order of the "Enter play" effects.
So you can fill the vampire and then trigger the redistribution of his blood.
Actually, this combo has been used before.
But yes. The wording could be improved.
And could be funny to see with an "Anarch converter". You could stop the combat and gain1 pool.
> Snodig wrote:
> Will Erlik be given blood by Illusions of the Kindred in time to use his cardtext ability and move 5 of those counters to the uncontrolled region?
>
> My understanding of cards worded with complete sentences and full stops, like Rötschreck, is that each operation is atomic (and interruptable).
> Does that imply separate timing windows for each operation?
> Meaning
> - Illusions is played
> - Combat ends
> - Erlik enters play (cardtext triggers here)
> - Erlik is filled to capacity
> - New combat occurs
>
> Or is Erlik already filled to capacity when he enters play, and his cardtext is usable in this scenario?
>
The latter.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Ankha could you please provide your rationale for the ruling?
I and others thought because of the separate sentences; of moving the vampire to the ready region, and the gaining blood, that the “as Erlik enter play” would happen in relation to the first part of being put in play and thereby before actually gaining any blood.
> inm8 wrote:
> Ankha could you please provide your rationale for the ruling?
>
> I and others thought because of the separate sentences; of moving the vampire to the ready region, and the gaining blood, that the “as Erlik enter play” would happen in relation to the first part of being put in play and thereby before actually gaining any blood.
>
By default, cardtext resolves atomically. The separation between sentences only matters if something interrupts an effect (e.g., Psyche!) but then it requires specific cardtext such as a replacement effect ("would... instead") or a "is about to..." effect.
Erlik's effect is neither, so you resolve IotK then apply Erlik's effect.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
If we look at Rötschreck’s wording it is intentionally divided into two sentences, if it wasn’t it wouldn’t be possible to interrupt/play eg Psyche (being two separate sentences is the reason why it has been ruled that Psyche is playable in its timing window “End of Round” which happens between the two sentences and not because it is an “interrupt” effect ).
“Combat ends. This vampire is locked and sent to torpor.”
[RTR 20020501]
The ”As Erlik enters play” effect based on the Rötschreck rationale should resolve in the same timing window as “That minion does not contest any other minions or titles in play.” which logically is before the blood gaining effect that isn’t in any way a mandatory or prerequisite effect for putting the vampire in the ready region.
“Move the bottom card from your crypt to your ready region. That minion does not contest any other minions or titles in play. That vampire gains blood equal to half their capacity rounded down.”
I understand that the intent of the card might be to work as ruled but imo if that is the wish a re-wording is what is needed and not a ruling.
Here's the 2009 LSJ ruling for Fourth Cycle (pre-errata) which established a precedent for execution in written order - in this case even when provided in a single sentence. That thread post-dates the Bima ruling [LSJ 20080512] which established at least some of the atomic timing precedents.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/4VRjly38IPo/m/hyjMZeaQmjUJ
I can see why 1) there's confusion on this topic and 2) why Fourth Cycle was given errata.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> Here's the 2009 LSJ ruling for Fourth Cycle (pre-errata) which established a precedent for execution in written order - in this case even when provided in a single sentence. That thread post-dates the Bima ruling [LSJ 20080512] which established at least some of the atomic timing precedents.
>
Just to be clear, "atomically" does not mean "simultaneously".
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director