In the discord, during a discussion about the announcement requirements for the presence effect of Break the Bonds (and similar) @hobbesgoblin found a ruling by LSJ.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/j5ShUmUt-vM/m/E0CqmXp_R0IJ
This seems to contradict the rulebook, which states:
All details of the action are defined when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, and so on.
For me it would be logical that the target for the blood gain with pre should be announced as the card is played, as it is clearly a detail of the action. So imo the LSJ ruling might be hard to deduce by card text and rulebook alone.
So I wanted to confirm if LSJ's ruling still stands.
obf and pre effect only occur if the bleed is sucefull (bleed for 1 or more) only this time the requeriment are fullfiled and the targets choice
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
Thats clear. However, what we were unsure about is if you need to announce the target of pr (+1 blood uncontrolled) during action announcement or later
Does this also means that, hypothetically, if the uncontrolled vampire somehow gets removed during the action, BtB will fizzle?
Suaku
Inceptor Asian Continental Championship
興っ
www.youtube.com/SuakuOz
Nope, if the bleed for 1 or more and need to choose someone on your uncontrolled region and therenos noone there, you just waste the free bloat
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
> the1andonlime wrote:
> Does this also means that, hypothetically, if the uncontrolled vampire somehow gets removed during the action, BtB will fizzle?
>
Yes because of not having a valid target (not having any vampires in the uncontrolled region, declaring of targets for conditional effects is only done when and if that effect actually triggers), the BtB action (which is to bleed) is not what fizzles but only the non-optional conditional effect of adding 1 blood to a vampire in your uncontrolled region (if the effect was announced when playing the card.)
For Dabbler for instance, the player can announce all three effects? fullfil the dabbler codition even if pre or obf effects don't thrigger because of lack of targets?
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
> DavidR wrote:
> For Dabbler for instance, the player can announce all three effects?
>
Yes, assuming all requirements for a legal play are met.
> DavidR wrote:
> fullfil the dabbler codition even if pre or obf effects don't thrigger because of lack of targets?
>
Yes, but note that the effect cannot be announced if one doesn’t have any vampires in one’s uncontrolled region as it isn’t an optional effect and therefore even though declaring of targets isn’t done until and only if the effect triggers there still needs to exist valid targets to fulfill the “valid target existence” requirement for the effect.
Break the Bond
Action Requires an Anarch. More than one Discipline can be used to play this card. (D) Bleed. [ani] The bleed is with +1 bleed. [obf] If the bleed is successful, you can lock a minion controlled by the target Methuselah. [pre] If the bleed is successful, add 1 blood to a vampire in your uncontrolled region.
> Oracle.kid wrote:
> In the discord, during a discussion about the announcement requirements for the presence effect of Break the Bonds (and similar) @hobbesgoblin found a ruling by LSJ.
>
> groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/j5ShUmUt-vM/m/E0CqmXp_R0IJ
>
> This seems to contradict the rulebook, which states:
>
> All details of the action are defined when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, and so on.
>
> For me it would be logical that the target for the blood gain with pre should be announced as the card is played, as it is clearly a detail of the action. So imo the LSJ ruling might be hard to deduce by card text and rulebook alone.
>
> So I wanted to confirm if LSJ's ruling still stands.
>
LSJ's (still valid) ruling is about a bleed action with an optional effect depending on something that is not known upon declaration (the bleed amount vs the cost of the ally). It is not relevant in the case of Break the Bonds which is a bleed action but with a mandatory effect that is well defined.
If you want to use the [pre] effect of Break the Bond, you need to choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region when declaring the action (so you cannot use the [pre] effect if you don't have any vampire in it).
> the1andonlime wrote:
> Does this also means that, hypothetically, if the uncontrolled vampire somehow gets removed during the action, BtB will fizzle?
>
No. First of all, it's a bleed action targeting your prey, not an action targeting a vampire in your uncontrolled region. Secondly, in the case of actions with multiple targets, you resolve as many parts as possible of the action's effect. The action fizzles only if all the targets are no longer eligible. RTR 8-AUG-8
> RTR wrote:
> If one of the multiple targets becomes ineligible during the course of the
> action, then it's handled just as if it had always been ineligible. The action
> resolves on the remaining targets as above.
>
> Non-existant user wrote:
> Public trusts works the same then?
>
Correct, you cannot play Public Trust at superior if you don't have a vampire in your uncontrolled region, and you need to declare which vampire will get the blood.
Public Trust
Action [pre] (D) Bleed with +2 bleed. [PRE] As above, and if the bleed is successful (for 1 or more), add 1 blood to a vampire in your uncontrolled region.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> LSJ's (still valid) ruling is about a bleed action with an optional effect depending on something that is not known upon declaration (the bleed amount vs the cost of the ally).
>
Interesting to see that you derived from the below that it is to be limited to unknow facts of just e.g. bleed value but it doesn't include the unknown facts of if the qualifier for the conditional effect is met or not.
>
> LSJ wrote:
> No. That waits until the action is successful.
>
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > LSJ's (still valid) ruling is about a bleed action with an optional effect depending on something that is not known upon declaration (the bleed amount vs the cost of the ally).
> >
> Interesting to see that you derived from the below that it is to be limited to unknow facts of just e.g. bleed value but it doesn't include the unknown facts of if the qualifier for the conditional effect is met or not.
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> > No. That waits until the action is successful.
> >
Could you please restate?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thanks, this clears it up for me
So in general, all effects which are mandatory (if the option is chosen) need to be announced?
Like Platinum Protocol's target for corruption counters, as alternate example.
the general interpretation of the Keystone Kine ruling was thought to be based on the conditional nature of the effect ("if y, x") making it not know if it (x) would happen and therefore didn´t require the declaration of the target in the announcement and would only need to be done when and if the qualifier (y) was met... which is why this ruling in KRCG is currently also linked to eg. The Platinum Protocol
now your provided ruling (assumingly based on the same ruling) states that it is because of the unknown details of the bleed value that matters for the targeting of the conditional effect why the target declaration is delayed for it... which means it has nothing to do with conditional effects and their unknown nature of whether they will happen or not.
one would need to know about this ruling to come to the right conclusion and it is difficult to generally apply it as the argument could be made that the conditional effects all have an unknown aspect to them but this unknown fact doesn't matter only unknown aspects that affect the targeting do.
> inm8 wrote:
> one would need to know about this ruling to come to the right conclusion and it is difficult to generally apply it as the argument could be made that the conditional effects all have an unknown aspect to them but this unknown fact doesn't matter only unknown aspects that affect the targeting do.
>
Imho the ruling is on the contrary better deducable from the rulebook than before, since the RB makes no difference on which details need to be announced.
> rulebook wrote:
> All details of the action are defined when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, and so on.
>
What might be helpful to clarify is that an action only fizzles if all parts of the action are unsuccessful
OK, going to leave the editorial complaining out and skip straight to questions.
1) You need an uncontrolled minion to announce the line on Break the Bonds (ruled in this thread). You don't necessarily choose the minion at that time as Undue Influence's explicit text requires, one just has to be there for announcement.
QUESTION: Do you defer selection of the recipient until after the bleed is successful?
That's what the Keystone Kine precedent would suggest - the target of "if successful" lines are selected only after the bleed demonstrates success. That 2-part timing feels clumsy.
There's also that Platinum Protocol question hanging. The line is mandatory and should have a valid target on announcement if you follow the Break the Bonds ruling here. That seems to follow even if the final targets (of both the bleed and applied counter) might change.
QUESTION: Is a valid INITIAL target for every MANDATORY effect required even when there's a "if successful" that implies deferred selection of the actual target?
I get the whole Keystone Kine precedent for opting out of "can/may" lines (e.g., [obf] Break the Bonds) getting around some of this, while still having used the effect for the purposes of things like Dabbler. We're leaning more on the more general "can't do what you can't do" with thee Pt Protocol question.
As I understood Ankha, the Keystone Kine is not a precedent, since the delayed choice is caused by an unknown variable (bleed amount), not "if successful".
So for every other "if successful"-action, choices would need to be made during announcement as normal.
The rub is that magnitude is what determines if the bleed is successful (e.g. more than 0).
It's really the same comparison right?
Is my bleed value bigger than "some target value"
- target = 1 or more for BtB
- target = X or more where X is the cost of an ally.
The syntax feels the same to me. If (and only if) X, do Y.
Unless we are reading a different ruling, it is not the same comparison.
> Ankha wrote:
> LSJ's (still valid) ruling is about a bleed action with an optional effect depending on something that is not known upon declaration (the bleed amount vs the cost of the ally). It is not relevant in the case of Break the Bonds which is a bleed action but with a mandatory effect that is well defined.
>
> If you want to use the pre effect of Break the Bond, you need to choose a vampire in your uncontrolled region when declaring the action (so you cannot use the pre effect if you don't have any vampire in it).
>
The question is for BtB: Value = bleed successful, so it is always triggered in the same way. No matter how much the bleed is. Therefore, you can define which minion at action announcement.
Syntax would read if X, then Y.
For Keystone Kine: Value = bleed successful with an amount X. Since X is unknown until action resolution, a target cannot be named beforehand.
Syntax would read if X, then Y for N.
> inm8 wrote:
> the general interpretation of the Keystone Kine ruling was thought to be based on the conditional nature of the effect ("if y, x") making it not know if it (x) would happen and therefore didn´t require the declaration of the target in the announcement and would only need to be done when and if the qualifier (y) was met... which is why this ruling in KRCG is currently also linked to eg. The Platinum Protocol
>
1. Since KK is an action, the " If this action is successful," part is in fact optional but put the emphasis on the fact that something depending on the outcome of the action must be decided when the action resolves. However, since that some something depends on the final bleed amount, it is implied that the outcome must be known before making that decision.
2. BtB depends on the bleed being successful, which is different from KK, but it doesn't matter for determining whether the target(s) must be declared or not. Since the [obf] effect depends on the outcome as it relies on the final target of the bleed, the minion being locked cannot be chosen before resolution. But the [pre] effect doesn't, so you can and must choose the target when announcing the action.
3. PP is an action modifier, depending on the bleed being successful and the final target of the bleed.
> inm8 wrote:
> now your provided ruling (assumingly based on the same ruling) states that it is because of the unknown details of the bleed value that matters for the targeting of the conditional effect why the target declaration is delayed for it... which means it has nothing to do with conditional effects and their unknown nature of whether they will happen or not.
>
> one would need to know about this ruling to come to the right conclusion and it is difficult to generally apply it as the argument could be made that the conditional effects all have an unknown aspect to them but this unknown fact doesn't matter only unknown aspects that affect the targeting do.
>
The rule is: make all the possible choices when announcing the action. Choices that depend on the outcome of the action must be made during resolution.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> OK, going to leave the editorial complaining out and skip straight to questions.
>
> 1) You need an uncontrolled minion to announce the line on Break the Bonds (ruled in this thread). You don't necessarily choose the minion at that time as Undue Influence's explicit text requires, one just has to be there for announcement.
>
> QUESTION: Do you defer selection of the recipient until after the bleed is successful?
>
No, it can and must be chosen when announcing the action.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> That's what the Keystone Kine precedent would suggest - the target of "if successful" lines are selected only after the bleed demonstrates success. That 2-part timing feels clumsy.
>
It's suggesting something, but it's not required.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> There's also that Platinum Protocol question hanging. The line is mandatory and should have a valid target on announcement if you follow the Break the Bonds ruling here.
>
The recipient cannot be chosen as long as the final target of the bleed is not known.
> TryDeflectingThisGrapple wrote:
> QUESTION: Is a valid INITIAL target for every MANDATORY effect required even when there's a "if successful" that implies deferred selection of the actual target?
>
"Initial" implies it may change. So no, you don't choose it until the resolution.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Sorry to resurrect this, but one point is unclear to me.
My understanding is that when you declare an action with Keystone Kine using [obfuscate] you don't have to choose a target until after you've performed the bleed. That is clear.
But if your predator has no allies in play, you can declare to use the obfuscate discipline?
If this is true in case there are other similar effects this rule would be correct?
If an effect of an action can't be fully defined until resolution, that action can be declared, even there are no suitable targets for the action at that moment. (the phase for selection of targets is postponed) If at resolution there is still no target available, the effect will fizzle.
> Coyote wrote:
> Sorry to resurrect this, but one point is unclear to me.
>
> My understanding is that when you declare an action with Keystone Kine using [obfuscate] you don't have to choose a target until after you've performed the bleed. That is clear.
>
> But if your predator has no allies in play, you can declare to use the obfuscate discipline?
>
> If this is true in case there are other similar effects this rule would be correct?
>
> If an effect of an action can't be fully defined until resolution, that action can be declared, even there are no suitable targets for the action at that moment. (the phase for selection of targets is postponed) If at resolution there is still no target available, the effect will fizzle.
>
you announce the discipline you use when you declare the action, then in resoluaiton you check if there is any ally you can burn to fulfil the obf part
"If this action is successful, you can burn an ally controlled by your prey whose cost is not greater than the bleed amount." - if there is no ally to burn then you don't burn anything
> Coyote wrote:
> Sorry to resurrect this, but one point is unclear to me.
>
> My understanding is that when you declare an action with Keystone Kine using [obfuscate] you don't have to choose a target until after you've performed the bleed. That is clear.
>
> But if your predator has no allies in play, you can declare to use the obfuscate discipline?
>
It's not a great idea to hijack this thread with another card, especially with no cardtext provided.
> If an effect of an action can't be fully defined until resolution, that action can be declared, even there are no suitable targets for the action at that moment. (the phase for selection of targets is postponed) If at resolution there is still no target available, the effect will fizzle.
>
Is that a question?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
1. Announce the Action
All details of the action are defined when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, and so on. Any card required for the action is played (face up) at this time, but is temporarily set aside (out of play) until the action resolves. Lock the acting minion (only ready unlocked minions can perform actions).
Effects are declared when announcing