Hi everyone,
I still remember some years ago when we had Una decks on the tables playing one turn of 40-45 minutes as Freak Drive were free for her before the errata.
That also led to have an errata on Ankhara Citadel as there were decks abusing of free Freak Drive.
Based on that precedent, and as there is a deck with multiple Hag's Wrinkles making a player to have a very long turn equipping and then sending bleeds of 20+.
Big Kudos for the player who designed the deck, I find it very fun to play. But we might have a similar issue here than the issue we had with Una decks in the past.
I am wondering whether an errata on Hag's Wrinkles would be needed.
The current card text is:
Hag's Wrinkles
[Action Modifier] Action Modifier
[Thanatosis] Thanatosis
[Obfuscate] Obfuscate
Only usable on an equip action.
[obf] +2 stealth.
[thn] Untap this acting vampire if the action is successful.
[THN] As [thn] above, but with +1 stealth.
If an errata would be the solution (I am not sure yet if it does need an errata or not), what would be the errata you would consider?
I will propose first and let's see how it goes this discussion, I think the main issue we have is that the card doesn't cost blood, however, just blindly put a cost of 1 blood could make this card to not be playable for Samedi decks (I know, there aren't lots anyway), so I was thinking about a way to increase the cost of it depending on the number of times the vampira has played Hag's Wrinkles in the current turn.
Something like that:
Cost: X blood
X is the number of Hag's Wrinkles already played this turn by the acting vampire
Like that the acting vampire playing multiple Hag Wrinkles will have their costs: 0 for the first one, one blood for the second, two blood for the third...
any thoughts?
Has this already caused a problem with this deck, or decktype, entering TWDA? And entering it en masse?
I think the lastest TWDA entry for Wrinkles is from 2017...
Also, if equipping take a while (I cannot fathom how), then the payoff with these "bleeds of 20+" should compensate more than a bit and resolve the table rather quickly...
Finnish Politics!
Main point here is that,to with current text,one player play his turn about 20(or more) minutes and other players watch game.
i think is best way,to act.mod. with unlock efect,or need to cost 1 blood,or can be played once per turn(as some other works).
in last online tourney,one player play mata hari with Guruhi card: Are the Land,and put lot of equipments. during game his say: his frends dont want to play with him if him play this deck,but in tourney,we must acept it,and play against. is very boring play against these deck types.
Instead touching a old card we could errata the new promo Hesha;
Name: Hesha Ruhadze [V5A:PMin1, Promo-20231007] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Ministry Group: 6 Capacity: 7 Discipline: ani aus obf PRE PRO Anarch: Hesha gets +1 bleed for each unique equipment attached to him. Artist: Carmen Cornet
Into
Name: Hesha Ruhadze [V5A:PMin1, Promo-20231007] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Ministry Group: 6 Capacity: 7 Discipline: ani aus obf PRE PRO Anarch: Hesha gets +1 bleed for each unique equipment attached to him for up to total of +3 (or whatever the "currently enjoyable level of single player solitaire for tournament meta" is) bleed. Artist: Carmen Cornet
It would also be solved by players including some cept, DI's, hostile takeover pre-camarilla nerf, boons, archons, Pentex pre BCP-nerf etc etc...
Or if the tournament players feel that strongly against turbos, they should check what the penalty for just packing up and leaving the table is. After all nobody can truly force one to sit there and take it. If people feel that strongly over things, they should just step away from it and let that be the most crystal clear message. In the current rulings, getting a game loss in a game where you've "lost already" is a moot point. And if it's final table, well, getting DQ for the second infraction is moot unless you are going for rankings. If you are, I'm sorry, to get imaginary points you need to pretend to care about the other players and the game at least until you're ousted. While it might not make exciting entertainment, players leaving one by one in the first ten minutes of final as one player is doing solitaire should be clear enough message.
This is coming from player who has sat multiple times beneath various turbo decks over the decades knowing there is not even a single VP up for me if they roll. But sometimes, someone has DI and the turbo is stopped following by table beating and forced benching of the turbo player. Are they entitled on crying how other people took away their ability to play the game, how they were just forced to watch or was it just a game thing that happened and now they're on the receiving end on what they were planning to give to others? Sometimes you sit on your seat and you know you're alread done but that's the game we choose to play. Sometimes cards that were nerfed and/or banned in the past could counter the current viewed troubles but instead are tools not available to us. Funny how Pentex was nerfed to allow everyone to not lose their acting minion now one player can keep others "hostage" because that minion cannot be Pentexed away.
Actually I just came up with surefire way to solve all future problems as well for tournament play. Introduce a tournament rule where player receives a warning if they spend more then four minutes on a turn without any cards or abilities used by other players, a 5 pool penalty on 5 minutes and at 6 minutes they are ousted. They can turbo all they want, they just need to be efficient with it. Also ensures people do not need to wait 20 minutes on one player. With that all previously tournament time related card bans and changes can be lifted and you can crown me the king who saved VTES players from being forced to sit and watch others play solitaire with this completely new and never before heard suggestion on a problem that tournament players have created for themself with play to win rules.
TL:DR New Hesha's lack of "up to X" is the problem, not decades old action modifier.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Kilrauko,about this:
" Actually I just came up with surefire way to solve all future problems as well for tournament play. Introduce a tournament rule where player receives a warning if they spend more then four minutes on a turn without any cards or abilities used by other players, a 5 pool penalty on 5 minutes and at 6 minutes they are ousted. They can turbo all they want, they just need to be efficient with it. Also ensures people do not need to wait 20 minutes on one player. With that all previously tournament time related card bans and changes can be lifted and you can crown me the king who saved VTES players from being forced to sit and watch others play solitaire with this completely new and never before heard suggestion on a problem that tournament players have created for themself with play to win rules."
we need to watch on clock every time when someone turn start. there can be problem,did someone lose 4 or 5 or 6 mins in his turn. because 4 or 6 mins,is big diference by penalty. some people play very slow his turn,so for these players,I can say im agre with this rule.
you probably read me comment above,and you see me proposal about act mod. I sugest that because unlock efect is strong and boring,that is mine sugestion,anyway,will you rule one day be acepted or not.
For presencial tournament, chess clocks can solve any problem 2 hour game is 24 minutes on players clocks, if your run out of time, you are ousted
David Resende - Prince of Teresina
diference betwen chess and VTES,is,if is you turn in chess,only you think about move,but in VTES,everyone can do something in you turn. cancel your master,block your action,play actions with enkil cog or madnes........
also during your actions other players make deal: hey,if i block him,can you do this and this.....
so is hard to we compare chess clock and VTES clock.
> Kilrauko wrote:
> TL:DR New Hesha's lack of "up to X" is the problem, not decades old action modifier.
>
I completely agree with this last bit. Seeing that Protean is becoming a discipline with just about every effect in the game, a free PRO freak drive is probably just around the corner. Fixing a random old card is not the solution.
So a niche card should be errated DUE TO _ONE_ ONLINE GAME where a player took his/her sweet time to play their turn?
Really? REALLY?
Reality check might be in order...
We now have been informed of a potential problem.
Plenty more evidence is needed before tweaking the card is appropriate.
Let's see if this develops into the next Una or EL...
Before that I'd refrain from crying wolf!
Finnish Politics!
My point is not because of one online game.
there is many games where you take turn forever because you can play unlock efect free.
the most famous unlock card is : Freak Drive,and it cost 1 blood.
exist also famous unlock card,but they can be played 1 time per turn,these cards: Instantaneous Transformation and Forced March.
whu is cards as: Hag's Wrinkles and The Are the Land,totaly free and you can play them 10-20 times per turn. is just boring/anojing to playing for another players.
Online was not a critical meaningful term here.
One game (or tournament) had a problem with this card.
Does this amount of data warrant ANYTHING?
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Online was not a critical meaningful term here.
>
> One game (or tournament) had a problem with this card.
>
> Does this amount of data warrant ANYTHING?
>
The deck uses an ungodly number of copies of a rare card that has been out of print for ages - there may not even be enough copies left around to build more than a couple of these decks.
> skimflux wrote:
>
> > Lönkka wrote:
> > Online was not a critical meaningful term here.
> >
> > One game (or tournament) had a problem with this card.
> >
> > Does this amount of data warrant ANYTHING?
> >
> The deck uses an ungodly number of copies of a rare card that has been out of print for ages - there may not even be enough copies left around to build more than a couple of these decks.
>
Rarity shouldn't be a factor in any decision.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I'm pretty sure that "ungodly" numbers of any given card exists multiple times over.
A deck can sport 90 copies of a card tops and it is not like VTES was printed in amounts of few odd displays...
Besides, barring few larger tournaments, proxies are an option.
Finnish Politics!
> Ankha wrote:
> Rarity shouldn't be a factor in any decision.
>
It must be taken into account when evaluating the evidence - or rather (in this case), the lack of such.
Since proxies are legal in the majority of tournaments and / or there is a relevant amount of games online, the accessability of any card is effectively not limited.
Also, Hag's Wrinkle is likely to get added to DTC / gamepod.
So rarity isn't really a factor here imo
Didn't someone play such a deck at Iberian Grand Prix just last weekend? Or have I misunderstood something...
Would be interesting to hear comments from the people who were on the same tables! As well as to see how well this _threatening_ deck did and how much it affected the time it took to play those tables it was participating!
Finnish Politics!
> Lönkka wrote:
> Didn't someone play such a deck at Iberian Grand Prix just last weekend? Or have I misunderstood something...
>
> Would be interesting to hear comments from the people who were on the same tables! As well as to see how well this _threatening_ deck did and how much it affected the time it took to play those tables it was participating!
>
Yes, the deck was at the Iberian GP - it was used by the same player that took it to the final of the Atlantic Cup. At the GP it didn't get any GWs but it was very close in a couple of rounds.
I've seen him play it several times and IMO the deck is a glass cannon: often devastating, but nearly as likely to crash and burn at the wrong/right table.
Regarding the duration of its turns I don't think I've heard any complaints - in the right hands all those actions go by fairly fast.
> Thalco wrote:
> Get yourself a raven spy, those 20 actions become very taxing for the player then
>
Intercept can be effective against the equip actions, but Hag's Wrinkles also gives +1 stealth so you'll need more than just one Raven Spy.
> skimflux wrote:
>
> > Thalco wrote:
> > Get yourself a raven spy, those 20 actions become very taxing for the player then
> >
> Intercept can be effective against the equip actions, but Hag's Wrinkles also gives +1 stealth so you'll need more than just one Raven Spy.
>
Indeed, it's designed to flow through the deck on turn 2, if it has 3+ starting transfers (which is 60% of games). You're not taking an action to get a Raven Spy before it starts. Once the equipment is in play, the deck transfers it without action to Hesha on turn 3, who can immediately start bleeding for 24+.
Yes, it is a glass cannon (from another comment), but one the mitigates the intercept problem through sheer speed.
A Promo card having poor wording causing problems? Perish the thought, that's never happened before! I think we should fix everything around the problem except for what started it! -- or maybe not.
Yeah, Kilrauko has the right of it. If the problem started with the Promo, the problem is the Promo. Doesn't seem like a pressing critical problem to the metagame, so the Design Team and Rules Team has time to watch it develop. But Promos do have a history of being a little loosey-goosey in design and then needing to be swatted back down.
Fixing it to up to +3 bleed is not a horrific nerf. It is still strong, targetable for Archon Investigation for the greedy, and speeds up the game. In fact, such a restriction would probably turn a glass cannon deck into something more robust since it'll have all these spare slots to fortify its deck weaknesses. Once the allure of excess is gone, things would settle back down.
> Azel wrote:
> A Promo card having poor wording causing problems? Perish the thought, that's never happened before! I think we should fix everything around the problem except for what started it! -- or maybe not.
>
> Yeah, Kilrauko has the right of it. If the problem started with the Promo, the problem is the Promo. Doesn't seem like a pressing critical problem to the metagame, so the Design Team and Rules Team has time to watch it develop. But Promos do have a history of being a little loosey-goosey in design and then needing to be swatted back down.
>
> Fixing it to up to +3 bleed is not a horrific nerf. It is still strong, targetable for Archon Investigation for the greedy, and speeds up the game. In fact, such a restriction would probably turn a glass cannon deck into something more robust since it'll have all these spare slots to fortify its deck weaknesses. Once the allure of excess is gone, things would settle back down.
>
WTF? Hesha G6 is not a promo card.
I have to agree with Igor. If we follow the Una logic, this card and probably all other free unlocks need errata. Now, in the hands of Sergio, its not a problem timewise. he goes through his whole deck in about 10-15min, which is very acceptable given that he have much faster turns after. the deck also gurantees a fast oust. (either he or someone else will die). BUT in the hands of "normal" players it would be like the same as Una taking 40-50min turns. the only thing that "safes" us from it beeing played more often, is the rarity of Hags Wrinkles, and people not aware of the power of the deck. but if rarity is not a factor, i really think those free unlocks need errata before we enter a new era of "Una".
I'm am not convinced that this is a problem before it starts wrecking havoc in tournament scene with timeouts and/or tournament wins.
AFAIK, neither has exactly been trending...
Finnish Politics!
i think we can and should use our past experience with Una decks. and not wait until the car crashes before we fix it. i also dont think the Una change was because of its great success in tournaments or because you would see it so often. maybe someone with Una errata experience can chime in and explain why Una needed errata, but Hesha deck would be fine.
> angrynewb wrote:
> i think we can and should use our past experience with Una decks. and not wait until the car crashes before we fix it. i also dont think the Una change was because of its great success in tournaments or because you would see it so often. maybe someone with Una errata experience can chime in and explain why Una needed errata, but Hesha deck would be fine.
>
Not to mention that the Una fix felt "clumsy" IMHO, as also Ankara Citadel was changed instead of just making Freak Drive to "burn a blood to untap" ...
<INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>
"Maybe because the Hag's Wrinkles deck hasn't really been proven to be problematic yet?"
That is what i was trying to explain to you. it is basically the same thing. you go through your whole deck while the other players wait to get another turn. the only reason why its not proven "problematic" is because only Sergio is playing it. and he is super fast. (he is also super fast with Una). but when more mediocore players try to play it, you will get those 40-50min turns again.
The errata for Una wasn't due to lots of Una decks winning tournaments (I think there is only 1 in the TWDA, it was for having one player using half of the time of the round in one turn while the other players just look at it.
I watch the Atlantic Cup final and Sergio played very fast, the problem might come when other players would start playing the deck, exactly as it happened with Una.
Maybe it is not an errata that needs to be done straight away, but I think to have the card in the watchlist of cards that can hace an errata.
> angrynewb wrote:
> "Maybe because the Hag's Wrinkles deck hasn't really been proven to be problematic yet?"
>
> That is what i was trying to explain to you. it is basically the same thing. you go through your whole deck while the other players wait to get another turn. the only reason why its not proven "problematic" is because only Sergio is playing it. and he is super fast. (he is also super fast with Una). but when more mediocore players try to play it, you will get those 40-50min turns again.
>
And prey tell where are these hordes of mediocre players playing the deck then?
At least they don't seem to have materialized in these past weeks/ months. Which still leads me to the conclusion that there actually is so far NO Empiric evidence supporting the claim for errata.
Finnish Politics!
Una was consistently doing finals and impacting them even if not winning at the end. I think more than the time spent, it was the NPE effect the problem.
Also with Pentex errata, Una would probably have been the best deck around
IC Organized play coordinator
Please contact me with any OP query using the mail in my profile
If every time an obscure combo worked a few times I yelled about banning cards, my personal ban list would be mostly thing's everyone forgets exist.
I'm not seeing a sizeable problem here hags wrinkles aren't as strong as British Museum. Or like most playable cards in the game.
> DavidR wrote:
> For presencial tournament, chess clocks can solve any problem 2 hour game is 24 minutes on players clocks, if your run out of time, you are ousted
>
This discussion happens every once in a while. I will just TL:DR and say that chess clocks are not the answer.
Because in VTES much of players game time is spent waiting on opponents input on cards, their reactions, the political discussion not just on vote cards, your prey asking whether they get something in return if they bounce the bleed to certain player or another player asking if they get something if they DI that etc.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech