So, interesting question.
The cost of an action is 'set' during the declaration.
However High Orun modifies the cost of cards for the remainder of this action that require a discipline.
This seems to imply that High Orun would modify the cost for the already played action card, as the cost has not yet been paid and will be within the timing effect of the action.
So, can we get an official ruling on if govern the unaligned would resolve for 0 or 1 blood if a High Orun were played during the action?
Relevant Rules texts
1. Announce the Action
All details of the action are defined when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, and so on.
3. Resolve the Action
If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place
High Orun
For the remainder of this action, cards that require any Disciplines cost this Laibon 1 less blood, and your hand size is one card larger.
One quick note, High Orun does not state
For the remainder of this action cards "PLAYED" that require any Disciplines cost this Laibon 1 less blood.
It simply uses the timing keyword "remainder" so a card doesn't have to be played to have the cost of it reduced. THA cards used from Inscription was the closest effect I could find where a card can have a cost without being played, though that isn't really going to be affected by this situation.
> skychan wrote:
> So, interesting question.
>
> The cost of an action is 'set' during the declaration.
> However High Orun modifies the cost of cards for the remainder of this action that require a discipline.
>
> This seems to imply that High Orun would modify the cost for the already played action card, as the cost has not yet been paid and will be within the timing effect of the action.
>
> So, can we get an official ruling on if govern the unaligned would resolve for 0 or 1 blood if a High Orun were played during the action?
>
> Relevant Rules texts
>
> 1. Announce the Action
> All details of the action are defined when the action is announced, including the target(s), the cost, the effects, and so on.
>
> 3. Resolve the Action
> If the action is successful (all block attempts were unsuccessful), then the cost of the action is paid and the effects of the successful action take place
>
> High Orun
> For the remainder of this action, cards that require any Disciplines cost this Laibon 1 less blood, and your hand size is one card larger.
>
No need for official rulings to be made again when they already exist.
> LSJ wrote:
> LSJ Oct 3, 2009, 12:18:53 AM
> to
> Rehlow wrote:
> > On Oct 2, 2:22 pm, LSJ <> wrote:
> >> Miguel Cortes wrote:
> >>> - When played as an action modifier during an action that costs blood,
> >>> does it reduce the action's cost, since it's payed when succesful
> >>> (after High Orun played)?
> >> Yes.
> >>
> >
> > Really?
>
> Yes.
>
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/hINpwz-JjjY/m/c97m8NLQNckJ
For Reference, High Orun at the time of this forum post;
Name: High Orun [LoB:C] Cardtype: Action Modifier/Reaction Burn Option Requires a Laibon with three or more Orun. For the remainder of this action, cards that require any Disciplines cost this Laibon 1 less blood, and your hand size is one card larger. Artist: Greg Boychuk
RTR 7/7/07 www.vekn.net/history-of-vtes-rules/450-rules-team-rulings-7-july-2007
Relevant part;
>
> RTR wrote:
> All cost-affecting cards operate no matter how the card is played ("as normal" or otherwise). All multiplication and division is handled first, followed by addition and subtraction.
>
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
I'm afraid that there absolutely IS a need to get this ruling listed somewhere that it can be located and treated as an official ruling. I could not find it in card rulings, and I could not find it on the vekn.net site in the forums.
Further nowhere on the vekn.net site references that, nor could I find it using general internet searchs, I did try. This ruling also isn't listed in VDB, though I admit that VDB at least is not an official source of recognized rules though it is often treated as such.
I also have not located any statement on the vekn.net website of where other rulings might have been made that are official, nor a list of what users using what sites should be considered as official.
I have been playing long enough to know that LSJ used to be official, but as the very thread you just pointed me to discusses how the ruling he made changed over time it is very difficult to accept that this game requires me to not only search non-vekn websites, know who posting on those sites historically could make official rulings, and finally know which of their rulings is the most current and up to date version given the changes made to gameplay and the rules in the greater than 25 years this game has existed.
> skychan wrote:
> I'm afraid that there absolutely IS a need to get this ruling listed somewhere that it can be located and treated as an official ruling. I could not find it in card rulings, and I could not find it on the vekn.net site in the forums.
>
> Further nowhere on the vekn.net site references that, nor could I find it using general internet searchs, I did try. This ruling also isn't listed in VDB, though I admit that VDB at least is not an official source of recognized rules though it is often treated as such.
>
> I also have not located any statement on the vekn.net website of where other rulings might have been made that are official, nor a list of what users using what sites should be considered as official.
>
> I have been playing long enough to know that LSJ used to be official, but as the very thread you just pointed me to discusses how the ruling he made changed over time it is very difficult to accept that this game requires me to not only search non-vekn websites, know who posting on those sites historically could make official rulings, and finally know which of their rulings is the most current and up to date version given the changes made to gameplay and the rules in the greater than 25 years this game has existed.
>
I'll try to help you with the best of my ability, your first trouble seems to me that the existing LSJ ruling is somehow not official as there's supposedly no official ruling that it's official as who can know what and when and where.
Thankfully there is;
www.vekn.net/forum/news-and-announcements/80782-the-line-pack-alpha?start=6#109157
>
> Ankha wrote:
> ... BTW, all LSJ/Floppy rulings are valid, unless there's a more recent official ruling saying otherwise. ...
>
In that light, we can start from history of VTES rules and go back ruling by ruling. Or start to look first for things that we "know" that reference card costs, aka "infamous" 7/7/07 with it's ruling on how vtes math works that I linked earlier as reference. It's here in VEKN site under history of VTES rules www.vekn.net/history-of-vtes-rules where various major rulings have been collected from time before and after the creation of VEKN.net. From that we can deduct without the LSJ ruling that "All cost-affecting cards operate no matter how the card is played ("as normal" or otherwise)." If we started from newest and went to 7/7/07, we could confirm whether there has been more recent ruling on how card costs work.
(I actually do not remember, but I'm semi confident, at least confident enough to accept the egg on my face if someone pulls more recent ruling on it, people make mistakes and fools of themself all the time here so I'll be in good company.)
Thus LSJ ruling on 2009 is just confirming specifically for High Orun (and Petaniqua ambulance textbook damnation Durga Syn steal scenario listed earlier in the thread) that 7/7/07 was a ruling that is still valid. People tend to forget and he decided to answer. Now if Ankha feels the need he can again confirm that LSJ has confirmed that 7/7/07 has confirmed how card costs work for VTES. And in the distant future someone else can confirm that Ankha in 2024 confirmed that... That's why the earlier generic "rulings are valid until ruled otherwise" blank statement. Saves time and effort. EDIT: Also enables REVERSALS when needed.
Now why that 2009 LSJ is not included in the VDB or Card Rulings in the VEKN for High Orun is not something I'm privy to. I'm however certain that if you feel strongly about it and petition for it to be included there, they'll consider including it. Those tools tend to have contact information for that.
As for easiness of accepting this being how it is, well, I unfortunately cannot help you with that. You'll hopefully note that the 7/7/07 that included the answer is on VEKN.net whereas the LSJ ruling is from official ruling source on groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad that used to host the official rulings pre VEKN.net and use that to help you in the future. Don't be discouraged, become empowered and part of the community by reporting the found knowledge to currently used tools as a service to whoever comes after.
Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.
Wow... your knowledge of this forum is vast. I admit I would never have thought to search under 'the line & pack alpha' for the official ruling that old rulings are official
I mean, at least if it were in the history of the rules section I might have had a hope of finding it.
I don't know that I would have been able to use this 7/7/07 ruling to verify the high orun discount given it was a timing rather than 'how played' issue. But it is good to have confirmation. I apprciate your help.
> skychan wrote:
> So, interesting question.
>
> The cost of an action is 'set' during the declaration.
> However High Orun modifies the cost of cards for the remainder of this action that require a discipline.
>
> This seems to imply that High Orun would modify the cost for the already played action card, as the cost has not yet been paid and will be within the timing effect of the action.
>
> So, can we get an official ruling on if govern the unaligned would resolve for 0 or 1 blood if a High Orun were played during the action?
>
It's basically cardtext. The cost of the action can change during the action. If the action resolves successfully, then you pay its final cost (you could use The Line to reduce it for instance).
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thank you.
The reason I asked is because of the word 'remainder'. This is an English word which typically excludes anything that happened before.
IE
I was going to school and after I stepped outside I gained the ability to fly for the remainder of the journey. This would imply that I could not fly before I stepped outside.
Thus with this card "for the remainder of the action" would by the English language imply not for anything that happened before this, such as the action card itself, any action modifier cards played that cost blood don't retroactively cost less, etc. That is why I'm grateful for the ruling that clarifies that because the cost is paid AFTER High Orun it fall's into the 'remainder' text rather than having the rulebook set the cost prior to this and that therefore this 7/7/07 ruling would apply in this case where it certainly does not retroactively return blood spent on action modifiers played before the High Orun was played during the action.
> skychan wrote:
> Thank you.
>
> The reason I asked is because of the word 'remainder'. This is an English word which typically excludes anything that happened before.
>
> IE
>
> I was going to school and after I stepped outside I gained the ability to fly for the remainder of the journey. This would imply that I could not fly before I stepped outside.
>
> Thus with this card "for the remainder of the action" would by the English language imply not for anything that happened before this, such as the action card itself, any action modifier cards played that cost blood don't retroactively cost less, etc. That is why I'm grateful for the ruling that clarifies that because the cost is paid AFTER High Orun it fall's into the 'remainder' text rather than having the rulebook set the cost prior to this and that therefore this 7/7/07 ruling would apply in this case where it certainly does not retroactively return blood spent on action modifiers played before the High Orun was played during the action.
>
The cost of action cards is checked when you play the card (you must have enough blood/pool etc. to play it), and when you pay for it (upon successful resolution). That is why the action card cost -1 blood even though you played it before. (its costs changes from X to X-1)
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director