Haqim's Law: Retribution - efect during combat

Haqim's Law: Retribution Put this card in play. During a bleed action, an Banu Haqim you control can discard a combat card to get +1 bleed. One player claim how him can use efect Haqim's Law: Retribution during combat,so just for cycle,him can discard card during combat. if that posible? If is answer yes,many action modifier have same key word (During a bleed action) as Haqim's Law: Retribution,so if is answer yes,can we then play also during combat(after block bleed): Confusion, Bonding, Conditioning......and many other increase bleed cards?

> beslin wrote: > One player claim how him can use efect Haqim's Law: Retribution during combat,so just for cycle,him can discard card during combat. if that posible? > > If is answer yes,many action modifier have same key word (During a bleed action) as Haqim's Law: Retribution,so if is answer yes,can we then play also during combat(after block bleed): Confusion, Bonding, Conditioning......and many other increase bleed cards? > No, it is not possible. One cannot use a bleed modifier during a non-bleed action/step....combat is not a bleed action/step and HLR is only useable During a bleed action as a modifier effect. Here groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/iRQcAXMl7aY/YMhwNvcDs5QJ is a ruling (on Bonding) that makes it clear that one cannot use a bleed modifier effect on a non-bleed action Haqim's Law: Retribution Cardtype: Master Clan: Banu Haqim Put this card in play. During a bleed action, a Banu Haqim you control can discard a combat card to get +1 bleed.

I believe we had a ruling during the Barcelona EC that this was allowed. But I would await official response from Ankha. Lackeyname: Kris

> Khaan wrote: > I believe we had a ruling during the Barcelona EC that this was allowed. But I would await official response from Ankha. > An official ruling has already been provided by Ankha : www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79757-haqim-s-law-retribution-and-anu-diptinatpa#105140 > Ankha wrote: > You cannot give a bleed boost to non-bleeding minion. > A minion in combat is not a bleeding minion. Even if it is a combat resulting from the block of a bleed action.

I was sure i had seen it being ruled and even after searching i missed and did see that thread Thanks for finding it Timo

This ruling does not apply directly: it’s saying a non-acting minion cannot use retribution. If the minion is bleeding and gets blocked, he’s acting, so it’s another case. Combat is part of the action so I don’t see why you couldn’t use Reribution. It says « during a bleed action », which it is, because combat is part of the action.

> lip wrote: > This ruling does not apply directly: it’s saying a non-acting minion cannot use retribution. > > If the minion is bleeding and gets blocked, he’s acting, so it’s another case. > > Combat is part of the action so I don’t see why you couldn’t use Reribution. It says « during a bleed action », which it is, because combat is part of the action. > You are correct, it isnt explicitly ruled for the scenario and would be good to get it confirmed by Ankha Just pointing out that a minion in combat is no longer bleeding even if the combat is the result of a bleeding action being blocked. > Ankha wrote: > You cannot give a bleed boost to non-bleeding minion. >

> beslin wrote: > One player claim how him can use efect Haqim's Law: Retribution during combat,so just for cycle,him can discard card during combat. if that posible? > Only if the acting minion is bleeding. REVERSAL: no, not during combat. Only before action resolution. > beslin wrote: > If is answer yes,many action modifier have same key word (During a bleed action) as Haqim's Law: Retribution,so if is answer yes,can we then play also during combat(after block bleed): Confusion, Bonding, Conditioning......and many other increase bleed cards? > No. You cannot play action modifier cards during combat. www.vekn.net/rulebook#combat > > rulebook wrote: > Note: The only cards that can be played during combat are combat cards. > *********************************** > inm8 wrote: > No, it is not possible. > One cannot use a bleed modifier during a non-bleed action/step....combat is not a bleed action/step and HLR is only useable During a bleed action as a modifier effect. > > Here groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/iRQcAXMl7aY/YMhwNvcDs5QJ is a ruling (on Bonding) that makes it clear that one cannot use a bleed modifier effect on a non-bleed action > If the action is not a bleed action, you cannot use BH:R at all. If the action is a bleed action (even though it's been blocked), you can use BH:R as it is not "playing an action modifier card", the same way you could use the Barrens. See REVERSAL above. > Timo wrote: > An official ruling has already been provided by Ankha : > > www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/79757-haqim-s-law-retribution-and-anu-diptinatpa#105140 > > > Ankha wrote: > > You cannot give a bleed boost to non-bleeding minion. > > > A minion in combat is not a bleeding minion. Even if it is a combat resulting from the block of a bleed action. > The ruling you quote is only about non-bleeding minions. A minion performing a bleed action who is blocked and in combat is still an acting, bleeding, minion. > lip wrote: > This ruling does not apply directly: it’s saying a non-acting minion cannot use retribution. > > If the minion is bleeding and gets blocked, he’s acting, so it’s another case. > > Combat is part of the action so I don’t see why you couldn’t use Reribution. It says « during a bleed action », which it is, because combat is part of the action. > Correct. > inm8 wrote: > Just pointing out that a minion in combat is no longer bleeding even if the combat is the result of a bleeding action being blocked. > > > Ankha wrote: > > You cannot give a bleed boost to non-bleeding minion. > > Those two statements are unrelated. The first one is wrong, and the second one is correct. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Seems I stand corrected.... didn´t expect it to be allowed to boost a bleed action during combat as the action is in the middle of resolution (block resolution), until now if I'm not mistaken all bleed boosting is only done before the actual resolution of the action. I guess then this is an "ok" to use HL:R as the bleed would be successful to get around deflection?!?!

> inm8 wrote: > Seems I stand corrected.... didn´t expect it to be allowed to boost a bleed action during combat as the action is in the middle of resolution (block resolution), until now if I'm not mistaken all bleed boosting is only done before the actual resolution of the action. > > I guess then this is an "ok" to use HL:R as the bleed would be successful to get around deflection. > You mean in the "dis pater/spying mission window" ? > Dis Pater > Unique. > > Put this card in play. Once each action, if a Giovanni you control is about to successfully bleed your prey, you can remove seven cards in your ash heap from the game to give that action +1 bleed. > > Spying Mission > +1 stealth. > > Only usable if a bleed would be successful. Instead, the bleed burns no pool, is unsuccessful, and this card is put on this vampire. The next time this vampire is about to successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card and this vampire gets +2 bleed. > I guess it would be the case (and I don't like it). It would also trump Archon Investigation. > Archon Investigation > Master: out-of-turn. > > Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you and the bleed amount is 4 or more. Burn the acting minion. (The action is not successful.) > This window is still happening "during a bleed action". I can't find specific rulings but as I read it, without explicit card text (like spying mission/dis pater), you can't modify a bleed except when you are bleeding (and I think being the acting minion of a bleed action does not qualify as being "bleeding").

> inm8 wrote: > Seems I stand corrected.... didn´t expect it to be allowed to boost a bleed action during combat as the action is in the middle of resolution (block resolution), until now if I'm not mistaken all bleed boosting is only done before the actual resolution of the action. > > I guess then this is an "ok" to use HL:R as the bleed would be successful to get around deflection. > No, "would be" window is only used for replacement effects. If you want to increase it, you have to do it before. > Timo wrote: > You mean in the "dis pater/spying mission window" ? > > > Dis Pater > > Unique. > > > > Put this card in play. Once each action, if a Giovanni you control is about to successfully bleed your prey, you can remove seven cards in your ash heap from the game to give that action +1 bleed. > > > > Spying Mission > > +1 stealth. > > > > Only usable if a bleed would be successful. Instead, the bleed burns no pool, is unsuccessful, and this card is put on this vampire. The next time this vampire is about to successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card and this vampire gets +2 bleed. > > > I guess it would be the case (and I don't like it). > Dis Pater and Spying Mission increase the bleed when it is "about to be successful", so it's too late once again. > Timo wrote: > It would also trump Archon Investigation. > > > Archon Investigation > > Master: out-of-turn. > > > > Only usable when a minion is attempting to bleed you and the bleed amount is 4 or more. Burn the acting minion. (The action is not successful.) > > How? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

How? Because, if I read the detailed play summary correctly, we have gone past the ”Attempt to bleed” stage (providing there were no blocks), the action has been deemed succesful and we are just paying costs and resolving the action at this stage. The action has not ended yet. I hope this does not work and that you can’t use Anu or HL:R at this stage, but cannot find a passage in the rules that would prevent this.

I cannot find anything in the rules that would prevent one using Anu or HL:R after the point when the action has been deemed succesful. The action has not ended yet, that happens after resolution. If you can use HL:R during the combat after an unsuccesful action, why can’t you use it after a succesful one? To be clear: I hope you cannot use these during this time. (Previous quick reply seems to have disappeared…)

> Ankha wrote: > If the action is a bleed action (even though it's been blocked), you can use BH:R as it is not "playing an action modifier card", the same way you could use the Barrens. > > A minion performing a bleed action who is blocked and in combat is still an acting, bleeding, minion. > Based on the above ruling and definition Archon Investigation could be played to burn the BH mid-combat if the boosting leads to a bleed of 4 or more ??

> Ankha wrote: > How? > My answer : > > Ankha wrote: > the same way you could use the Barrens > In the would be successful window. All of these are based on the fact that you ruled that it is OK to boost a bleed in a combat based on the fact that it is a generic effect happening during a timing which is technically a bleed action and therefore the acting minion is bleeding. With the same logic, it could be used during the resolution of the bleed action where (if I am not mistaken) it is allowed to use generic effects like the Barrens. And to answer that : > Ankha wrote: > No, "would be" window is only used for replacement effects. If you want to increase it, you have to do it before. > You just ruled that it was handled like another generic effects. Otherwise, I could point that in combat you can use only combat cards (and I do). And by the way, about the second part : you just ruled that you could do it "after".

There's an old ruling about Pentex(TM) Loves You that clarifies when it can be used, that is: anytime you could you an action modifier. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/QujjxfQHYzw/m/S4tNTm4gpi8J Based on this, I'm issuing a REVERSAL of my previous answer : you cannot use Banu Haqim: Retribution during combat. You can use it only before action resolution since it is modifying the bleed amount. (The same applies to Anu Diptinatpa.) Note that even if one could increase the bleed amount after bleed resolution, this would have no impact on the now-resolved bleed, the same way that making one's hand strikes aggravated after resolution of the strikes doesn't make them retroactively aggravated. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Would be great if there was an update made to the rules that modifier effects (e.g. Pentex Loves You and HL:R) regardless if from a modifier card or not are subject to the same restriction of timing as modifier cards

> Ankha wrote: > > > beslin wrote: > > One player claim how him can use efect Haqim's Law: Retribution during combat,so just for cycle,him can discard card during combat. if that posible? > > > Only if the acting minion is bleeding. > REVERSAL: no, not during combat. Only before action resolution. > If this card is now being ruled to provide an "action modifier type effect" why not start printing the cards in that way to immediately make these sorts of rulings unnecessary? You can immediately dovetail in a variant of 'each copy in play provides a different action' for cards like this. A simple layout change to eliminate the need for specific card rulings. Haqim's Law: Retribution Cardtype: Master Clan: Banu Haqim Put this card in play. During a bleed action, a Banu Haqim you control can discard a combat card to get +1 bleed. Retired Baron of Sydney, Australia, 418

Imgur is down right now, and I can't be arsed to find another place to host the image. Anyway, Here's Wonderwall.

You'd have to mark it as an effect that doesn't count against the limit or you totally change the behavior of the card.

I was under the impression you could only play combat cards during a combat . Prince of Liverpool and UK NC

Discarding for effect isn't playing a combat card Finnish Politics!

> Lönkka wrote: > Discarding for effect isn't playing a combat card > Indeed, you could use a Barrens for instance. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Thread resurrection Quick clarification: - the linked ruling by LSJ says the effect can only be used when an action modifier can be used - there has been rulings since then ( www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77581-action-modifiers-played-at-beginning-and-end-of-an-action#94652 ) that only as-announced modifiers can be used in the as-announced window Does this mean HL:R, being used as if a modifier, cannot be used in the as-announced window? Suaku Inceptor Asian Continental Championship 興っ www.youtube.com/SuakuOz

> the1andonlime wrote: > Thread resurrection > Quick clarification: > - the linked ruling by LSJ says the effect can only be used when an action modifier can be used > This is what we could call now "when you have the impulse". > the1andonlime wrote: > - there has been rulings since then ( www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/77581-action-modifiers-played-at-beginning-and-end-of-an-action#94652 ) that only as-announced modifiers can be used in the as-announced window > Only playing cards is restricted. > the1andonlime wrote: > Does this mean HL:R, being used as if a modifier, cannot be used in the as-announced window? > It's not playing a card, so no. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director