Vlad Tepes Makes Third Tradition Progeny as the Justicar of a Non-Camarilla Clan

I believe I can do this, but it's weird enough that I probably should get a ruling before risking it in live play. It's a simple question, but just in case the answer is no, will you please explain ALL of the ways I went wrong / misunderstood rulings? Thanks in advance -- here's the question. QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?" If the answer is yes, then I have a fun followup question based on previous rulings about Vlad being able to spoof city titles that don't exist in the game: "Can Vlad Tepes perform 3rd Tradition as the justicar of a made-up clan (e.g. the Earthwurm Justicar), resulting in progeny of that newly-named clan?" Card text pasted below. Thank you!! -Bill Troxel / Killiam Name: Vlad Tepes Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Tzimisce Group: 3 Capacity: 10 Discipline: aus ANI DOM PRO THA VIC Independent: Vlad uses and can play cards requiring a title or a sect as if he had that required title or were of that required sect. +1 bleed. Name: Third Tradition: Progeny AKA: The Third Tradition: Progeny Cardtype: Action Cost: 1 blood +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar. Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire. You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire. Move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire cannot take any actions this turn. -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

Vlad's ability does not allow him to impersonate a clan. So even if he could play (probably can but not sure) a card as X Justicar, his clan is still Tzimisce. So progeny would also be Tzimisce.

Is there not ruling precedent for Vlad to inherit the necessary qualities of a title while he acts as a vampire spoofing that title, even though it is not those qualities he is directly spoofing? IIRC, if Vlad plays Scourge as a Priscus, he does so as a Sabbat vampire because Priscus is a Sabbat title -- even though Scourge itself has no sect requirement, which disqualifies him from using his ability to directly spoof a sect for the purposes of playing/using the card. So he gets the sect as an implied quality of the title he is spoofing. By extension, playing a card as a Justicar implies clan, as that title is always necessarily clan-specific. Would he not have all the qualities of that title for the purposes of playing the card, thus indirectly counting as a member of the clan without actually having to spoof the clan directly (which of course, he can't)? Whisker, please let me know if you are on the rules team and if your comment is an official ruling. If not, but you have a link to an official ruling clarifying this, could you please share it here? Thanks and cheers! [Edit: changed wording of "Priscus requires Sabbat" to more correct and precise "Priscus is a Sabbat title"] -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

I'm not affiliated with rules team in any way. But I think I found the ruling you referred to: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/69627-vlad-tepes-regent?start=12#69696 "jamesatzephyr wrote: Also, what happens if Vlad plays Anarch Secession? Can he choose to be a Prince/Archbishop of somewhere for the purposes of playing the card, and thus become the Baron of somewhere? +1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire. ...If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city. Yes." Interesting... by this light it would seem Vlad can choose to be Giovanni Justicar. There is a list of clans, but is there a list of allowed clans? Can we choose can clan something silly? And will this work with clan impersonation also? Let's wait for Ankha to pipe in.

> Killiam wrote: > By extension, playing a card as a Justicar implies clan, as that title is always necessarily clan-specific. Would he not have all the qualities of that title for the purposes of playing the card, thus indirectly counting as a member of the clan without actually having to spoof the clan directly (which of course, he can't)? > On one hand you ask if Vlad can "spoof" (I therefore make it the official word for "play a card as if", thank you for your contribution !) a non-camarilla clan or even a non existant clan. And on the other hand, you make your case by saying that it should be possible because a Justicar Title needs a clan. BUT, Vlad Tepes already as a title. He is a Tzimisce. So if he play a Progeny as a Justicar, he does so as the Tzimisce Justicar and so would make a Tzimisce Progeny. Likewise, if Vlad already had a city title and played anarch secession, he would be the baron of the same city. At least, it is my interpretation of the rulings and the cards. Edit : by the way, there is no such thing as a "non-camarilla clan" since the RTR 30-11-2020

> Timo wrote: > And on the other hand, you make your case by saying that it should be possible because a Justicar Title needs a clan. > What the justicar title "needs" (i.e., requires) is not of concern to this case, as the title is being spoofed rather than being taken/possessed. I'm making a stronger statement: any given justicar title IMPLIES a clan. That implication may (depending on ruling) fall through into the text of the card being played, in this case, Third Tradition: Progeny, which makes explicit mention of clan. To clarify: according to the rulebook, justicar titles are unique, with each different justicar title belonging to a clan. (See section 6. Vampire Sects, under heading Camarilla.) As such, when Vlad plays a card as-a-justicar to meet requirements, I believe he must name exactly which unique justicar title he is spoofing. After all, that's what he is required to do when he spoofs a city title ---name which city--- as political control of a city is also unique/contestable, on a city-by-city basis. Really, the question of whether or not the implied clan of the unique justicar title being spoofed falls through into the card text of Third Tradition (where it makes mention of clan) is the heart of this rules question. Everything else is of secondary concern to that question. I'm actually quite confident that Vlad can spoof Giovanni Justicar; I'm just trying to lay every conceivable, reasonable objection/uncertainty/weirdness bare in my question to facilitate everyone's understanding of the nature of the ruling when it comes. > Timo wrote: > Likewise, if Vlad already had a city title and played anarch secession, he would be the baron of the same city. > Quite sure that that's incorrect. So long as the card requires a title, Vlad can spoof any title that fulfills the requirements of the card, regardless of any title he currently possesses -- even if his present title would already be sufficient to meet the card requirements. > Timo wrote: > Edit : by the way, there is no such thing as a "non-camarilla clan" since the RTR 30-11-2020 > Of course, we are all aware of this. It's still worth using the term in the subject line to emphasize (for the sake of a rule's team member reviewing this) that Vlad would be spoofing a title that has not yet been seen in the game, rather than drawing from the pool of established justicar titles extant. Again, I endeavor to expose any potential quirks of the issue in the way I present rules questions, so they're available for quick reference in the ruling. Really my concern is whether or not the clan of the spoofed justicar title affects the clan of the Third Tradition being played. All this other stuff is window dressing to make sure we are all on the same page --- for which I have apparently done a poor job. Hopefully this all clarifies. Cheers! -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

OK, I see your point (I think). So it could be possible that Vlad Tepes spoof the "giovani justicar" title. But, third tradition require a prince or justicar. And then, mention a clan for the created progeny. I can't see how this clan would refer to the justicar clan because in the case of a prince playing the card there is no such thing. Therefore the clan cited in the text must be the clan of the vampire playing the card. So, I still think that a progeny played by vanilla Vlad Tepes will be Tzimisce.

It very possibly will be Tzimicse, because in "justicar of Giovanni" the "Giovanni" might just be a word that doesn't necessarily carry clan with it (even though you can't hold that title without being Giovanni clan...) -- and then when Third Tradition says, "same clan as the acting vampire," it checks and sees that Vlad is Tzimisce. Still, I would really like to hear the rules monger weigh in on this so we can know for sure. I don't agree with (or maybe don't fully understand) your reasoning around being able to play it as a prince as an argument against.. that only feels like it strengthens my case. IIRC, it's been ruled that if Vlad plays Anarch Secession, he chooses a city title to spoof, even though Anarch Secession doesn't require a title of a SPECIFIC city -- just any city will do. Still, he spoofs the title to which a city gets attached and then when Anarch Secession checks to see which city the acting vampire's title is for, it doesn't see that Vlad is untitled, (or even that has a title for a different city), it sees the city that he named in conjunction with the title he spoofed, because he was taking the action AS the vampire with that title (for that city). Point being: there's precedent that he can choose any title he likes that fulfills the card requirements --- so he can choose justicar or prince, his choice --- and if the card concerns itself with other traits/qualities attached to the title (such as city), then it looks to the quality attached to the title rather than whatever the Vlad has in actuality (at least in the case of Anarch Secession). Anyhow, I appreciate the engagement and interest; we'll just have to see what the officials say. I hope they get around to this one since it affects a deck concept, but I understand that rulings for Vlad need extra time, thought and care, because his text can cause some pretty weird stuff to happen. Cheers! -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

You raise some very interesting points. He can impersonate Justicar as that is a title, and sect to be Camarilla. But he can't impersonate clan, so I think he could become a Tzimisce Justicar and thereby make progency as a Tzimisce. Even though there is no Tzimisce Justicar within the Camarilla I believe his abilities override this.

> Ghost1980 wrote: > You raise some very interesting points. He can impersonate Justicar as that is a title, and sect to be Camarilla. But he can't impersonate clan, so I think he could become a Tzimisce Justicar and thereby make progency as a Tzimisce. Even though there is no Tzimisce Justicar within the Camarilla I believe his abilities override this. > I agree that he could take the action as the Tzimisce Justicar. The question is, why couldn't he take the action as the Giovanni Justicar? According to the rulebook, justicar titles are distinct and unique from one another. According to past rulings, Vlad can choose any title he likes that meets the requirements of the card. So why couldn't he choose that one? I understand that his ability does not mention being able to impersonate clan or meet clan requirements. This is about him spoofing a title (and Third Tradition has no clan requirement). If the answer is that he CAN choose to take the action as the Giovanni Justicar, then the followup question is: does the Third Tradition recognize him as a Giovanni as a result of playing the card (and thus taking the action) as Giovanni Justicar, or does it still see him as a Tzimizce? -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> Killiam wrote: > I don't agree with (or maybe don't fully understand) your reasoning around being able to play it as a prince as an argument against.. that only feels like it strengthens my case. > My point about this is about the text of third tradition : Third Tradition: Progeny +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar. Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity Camarilla vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire. You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire. Move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire cannot take any actions this turn. The clan of the progeny can't be linked to the clan linked to the justicar title otherwise, when it is played by a prince, there would be no clan involved. And about the ruling about anarch secession. If I understand it correctly, the city involved is necessarily linked to the title because in the game, the only relevance of a city is linked to a city title. But for a clan, every vampire has one by default and with my above argument about the prince, I don't see the clan of the progeny being anything else than the real clan of vlad (ie tzim for vanilla vlad).

> Killiam wrote: > I believe I can do this, but it's weird enough that I probably should get a ruling before risking it in live play. It's a simple question, but just in case the answer is no, will you please explain ALL of the ways I went wrong / misunderstood rulings? Thanks in advance -- here's the question. > > QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?" > 1. Yes conditionally. He plays it as a Justicar. not specifically a Giovanni Justicar. 2. No. Third tradition literally says "same clan as the acting vampire". Vlad never stops being Vlad, or stops being Tzimisce. As Whisker said, he does not pretend to be specific clan. He can merely PLAY cards as if he had the required sect or title. Nowhere is it allowed to be a specific city or clan title. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Killiam wrote: > > > > QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?" > > > 1. Yes conditionally. He plays it as a Justicar. not specifically a Giovanni Justicar. > I think this is wrong. It has already been ruled by PB (as the rule director at the time) that Vlad can spoof any specific title (even baron of the ISS if you want). With this ruling, Vlad can spoof the title of Justicar of any clan (Giovani included). And similarly with the fact that no list of city is written in the rulebook, no list of clan is written in it. Therefore, I think that Vlad could spoof the title of "Nerdy Justicar" if you want. I still believe it would have strictly no effect in the game right now but it could have if a card like that existed : > Puppet > Requires a non-sterile titled vampire > The acting vampire loose their title. > Put this card in play, it becomes a 1 capacity vampire with the lost title. If the title is attached to a clan and/or sect, this vampire is of this clan and/or sect. > EDIT : after all this discussion and rule diving, I am not so sure anymore that the progeny will not be Giovani. After all, Vlad spoofing a camarilla title is considered a camarilla vampire for the effects of the cards... > > LSJ > 28 janv. 2005, 03:41:07 > à > Emmit Svenson wrote: > > But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is > > concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct? > It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot > be the former save that you are the latter). > I will wait for Vincent to finish his own rule-dive ^^

> Bloodartist wrote: > > > Killiam wrote: > > QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?" > > > 1. Yes conditionally. He plays it as a Justicar. not specifically a Giovanni Justicar. > Why can't he play it as the Giovanni Justicar? Consider the following two rulings: 1. Vlad can choose any title he wishes that meets the requirements of the card for his special ability. Source: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76865-vlad-tepes-anarch-secession?start=0#89418 2. Justicar titles are considered unique titles, with each belonging to a clan. Source: Rulebook, section: "6. Vampire Sects," subsection: "Camarilla," first paragraph. I think we can conclude that Vlad's ability would allow him to play a card possessing a justicar requirement as if he had ANY ONE of the justicar titles, with there being one such title per clan. He is not pretending to be a Giovanni; he is pretending to be a vampire with the title of "Giovanni Justicar," and the card he played should recognize him as a vampire bearing that title, insofar as that card required a title and that title meets the requirement. > Bloodartist wrote: > 2. No. Third tradition literally says "same clan as the acting vampire". > Yes, it does say that. This is the crux of the rules question: does being the Giovanni Justicar necessarily imply being Giovanni, and moreover, does the Third Tradition played get fooled by that implication -- not as the result of a clan requirement, but as the result of a title requirement, where the particular title just so happens to imply a clan? > Bloodartist wrote: > Vlad never stops being Vlad, or stops being Tzimisce. As Whisker said, he does not pretend to be specific clan. He can merely PLAY cards as if he had the required sect or title. > That's correct; he never stops being Tzimisce, nor does he pretend to. He merely PLAYS the Third Tradition as Giovanni Justicar. And it may well be that the Third Tradition ends up seeing him as Tzimisce. But clearly there is more than enough wiggle room here for it to come down to a matter of interpretation. An official ruling is required to settle the matter so we can move forward. The ruling may go either way, and I'm not betting on either result; I just need to know because it affects deck design. > Bloodartist wrote: > Nowhere is it allowed to be a specific city or clan title. > The ruling I linked to says it's allowed to be a specific city: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/76865-vlad-tepes-anarch-secession?start=0#89418 Looking forward to getting an official ruling on this. Thanks to everyone for helping to lay out the arguments and hammer out details for the rules monger. -Cheers -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

This is an interesting debate First thing I would say is that the ability to fake a title does not give him the ability to invent a title. Someone said that Vlad could say he is the prince of anywhere. I don't agree. He could be a prince faking an existing prince title. He could be Prince of New York as that title exist. But he could not be prince of Albacete as that prince title doesn't exist. He can only fake existing titles. He can invent titles. He can't say he is de Lord of the Independents (a title that doesn't exist) Said that he could not be Giovanni Justicar as that title doesn't exist. The title is not actually Justicar, but 7 titles of Justicar. But about any other justicar titles. Have a look at this example. You can be a vampire Tremere Justicar. Someone plays derange on you. You become malkavian. Being tremere justicar doesn't make you tremere again. Being Malkavian voids your title. A title doesn't give you the underlying prerequisites. You still have to meet the prerequisites. If you fake being a tremere Justicar and you don't meet the prerequisites, the title would be void and would not work. You would need another way to fake being tremere, so the title would not be void as soon as you get it. Even if it is temporary. About being Independent and faking a Camarilla title, remember that Vlad fakes both the title AND the underlying sect, so he can meet the requisites of the title. Probably that's why they set that he could fake sects, so he could meet the requirements of the title.

If Vlad choses a Justicar tittle other than Justicar Tzimitze he looses the benefeits of the tittle so he won't be meeting the requirements to play the card groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/L9D4GK0yNv8/m/H9vnUciv2psJ

> Coyote wrote: > First thing I would say is that the ability to fake a title does not give him the ability to invent a title. > > Someone said that Vlad could say he is the prince of anywhere. I don't agree. He could be a prince faking an existing prince title. He could be Prince of New York as that title exist. But he could not be prince of Albacete as that prince title doesn't exist. > The ruling for this, which came from Pascal Bertrand when he was rules monger, is official and not ambiguous: Vlad can spoof a city title for any city, including made up ones. The phrase "made up" is specifically mentioned. Here is a direct link to that exact ruling: www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/69627-vlad-tepes-regent?start=12#69732 Unless there exists a more up-to-date ruling that would override this, that's the final word. > Coyote wrote: > But about any other justicar titles. > > Have a look at this example. You can be a vampire Tremere Justicar. Someone plays derange on you. You become malkavian. Being tremere justicar doesn't make you tremere again. Being Malkavian voids your title. > This is true of HAVING titles; when you no longer qualify for the title, it becomes inert, and if it would be contested, you are forced to yield. When your title is inert, the inert title does not allow you to play cards requiring that title. This is evidently NOT true of playing cards AS-IF-YOU-HAD the title, as many rulings amply show -- and that makes sense -- if Vlad had to qualify for the titles that he spoofed, then he would not be able to play many of the cards that it has been ruled he can play. No Secrets, for instance requires a magaji, but it has no explicit sect requirement, so Vlad is not allowed to spoof the Laibon sect for the purposes of playing that card. As such, if your argument applied to Vlad's special, he would be playing No Secrets as an Independent vampire with an inert magaji title, which means he's not allowed to play the card in the first place. But it has been ruled that he CAN play No Secrets From the Magaji. > Coyote wrote: > A title doesn't give you the underlying prerequisites. You still have to meet the prerequisites. > Yes, it is a very important point that having a title does not give you its underlying prerequisites, and that to hold the title, you must have already met those prerequisites independently of having the title. Of course, Vlad's special allows him to sidestep prerequisites for the purpose of playing the cards AS IF he had those titles in their NON-INERT form. The question this raises is: does being able to play the card AS IF you had a specific title IMPLY to the card's text that it was played by a vampire possessing the underlying prerequisites? Maybe not.. that's for the rules monger to rule on. So the question here is not whether Vlad has the ability to spoof the prerequisites (HE CAN'T AND HE DOESN'T NEED TO IN ORDER TO PLAY THE CARD), it's a question of whether or not the card's text can tell the difference. Of course there's another big question of whether or not naming the justicar of a given clan while playing a card in as AS-IF capacity carries with it the implication of belonging to that clan; that's also for an official to rule on. > Coyote wrote: > About being Independent and faking a Camarilla title, remember that Vlad fakes both the title AND the underlying sect, so he can meet the requisites of the title. Probably that's why they set that he could fake sects, so he could meet the requirements of the title. > Point of clarification: Vlad can only fake the underlying sect if the sect is named as a requirement of the card, per Vlad's card text. If the card names a title in its requirement but does not name a sect, then Vlad can only pretend to have that title; he does not get to pretend to belong to that sect. If, on the other hand, it turns out that the card text regards him as belonging to that sect anyhow because the title IMPLIES that sect, then we're on to something here. I suppose one interesting possible outcome would be a ruling that says a card that requires a sect-based title also implicitly has a sect requirement to play (e.g. No Secrets requires Laibon because magaji is a Laibon title), in which case your last observation here would be spot-on. And if that were the case, a similar ruling might be made that a card requiring a justicar or inner-circle title implicitly has a clan requirement attached to it. But I am dubious as to whether such a ruling would be made, because then would Vlad be able to play such cards at all, given that he cannot spoof clan? Perhaps he could only play them as Tzimisce justicar/IC? What about cards that could be played either by a prince or a justicar -- do those cards carry an implicit clan requirement? Seems fishy, but still possible, I guess. Thanks so much for all your attention to these fine details. Best wishes! -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> Draud wrote: > If Vlad choses a Justicar tittle other than Justicar Tzimitze he looses the benefeits of the tittle so he won't be meeting the requirements to play the card > > groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/L9D4GK0yNv8/m/H9vnUciv2psJ > The ruling you have linked to only applies to possessing a title, not to playing a card as-if-you-had a title. If you read my response to Coyote, you'll see that I have laid out the distinction between the two cases in detail, and demonstrated that they operate differently, and that this difference is already codified in rulings. Long story short, Vlad does not lose his ability to play a card with a title just because he does not meet the requirements of that title. If he did, he could not play No Secrets From the Magaji, because magaji requires Laibon and Vlad is Independent. But it has been ruled that Vlad CAN play No Secrets. (And no, he can't use his special ability to pretend to be Laibon in order to play this card, because No Secrets does not have a sect requirement; it only has a title requirement.) Thanks for your attention to this issue. Cheers! -Killiam (Bill Troxel) "I look back from where I'm from Look at the woman I've become And the strangest things seem Suddenly routine" -Hedwig Robinson

> Killiam wrote: > [ > I suppose one interesting possible outcome would be a ruling that says a card that requires a sect-based title also implicitly has a sect requirement to play (e.g. No Secrets requires Laibon because magaji is a Laibon title) > It already exist : groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/HVy8iPUxNbI/m/ZHGTnprQjGUJ LSJ 28 janv. 2005, 03:41:07 à Emmit Svenson wrote: > But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is > concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct? It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot be the former save that you are the latter). Basically, it says that Kemintri can play closed session which require a justicar and be seen by it as a camarilla vampire. > Closed Session > Requires a prince, justicar or Inner Circle member. Only usable during the polling step of a political action before votes and ballots are cast. > > Non-Camarilla vampires cannot cast votes or ballots during this referendum. > So I guess the question here is to know if a Justicar title "requires" a clan attached and if this clan carry to the progeny.

Pushing this up, as I'm curious for the answer.

> Killiam wrote: > I believe I can do this, but it's weird enough that I probably should get a ruling before risking it in live play. It's a simple question, but just in case the answer is no, will you please explain ALL of the ways I went wrong / misunderstood rulings? Thanks in advance -- here's the question. > > QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?" > Sorry for the delay, it was a tricky one. The progeny will be of the same clan as Vlad. Reasons: Third Tradition: Progeny doesn't require a clan, and doesn't care about which clan (if any) is tied to the title. It cares about the vampire's clan. So Vlad could play it as a Giovanni Justicar but would still be seen as a Tzimisce by the card. Or Vlad could play it as Prince of Buenos Aires, and the progeny would be Tzimisce. This is NOT a reversal of www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/69627-vlad-tepes-regent?start=12#69696 since Anarch Secession cares explicitly about the title ("If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city...") > Killiam wrote: > If the answer is yes, then I have a fun followup question based on previous rulings about Vlad being able to spoof city titles that don't exist in the game: > "Can Vlad Tepes perform 3rd Tradition as the justicar of a made-up clan (e.g. the Earthwurm Justicar), resulting in progeny of that newly-named clan?" > Moot. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > Killiam wrote: > > QUESTION: "Can Vlad Tepes perform Third Tradition: Progeny as the Giovanni Justicar, and will it result in GIOVANNI OFFSPRING?" > > > [...] > > The progeny will be of the same clan as Vlad. > > Reasons: > Third Tradition: Progeny doesn't require a clan, and doesn't care about which clan (if any) is tied to the title. It cares about the vampire's clan. So Vlad could play it as a Giovanni Justicar but would still be seen as a Tzimisce by the card. Or Vlad could play it as Prince of Buenos Aires, and the progeny would be Tzimisce. > This ruling is in my opinion not consistent with other rulings regarding playing cards "as something else". Even if Third Tradition: Progeny doesn't require a clan and doesn't care about which clan is tied to a title it doesn't change the fact that when faking a clan-specific title the card would have to see them as such when referencing it as part of its effect. The rulebook states (highlight in bold by me): > Rulebook wrote: > Some allies have the ability to play certain cards “as a vampire.” In these cases, the ally is treated as a vampire for all effects generated by the play of the card, including duration effects (like “for the remainder of combat”). > > Rulebook wrote: > Only Camarilla vampires can hold the Camarilla titles primogen, prince, justicar, and Inner Circle member. Additionally, each clan’s justicar and Inner Circle titles are unique (see Contested Titles) and can only be held by vampires of that clan. > Additionally, we have the below rulings elaborating that elements that must be true when faking something are also inherently faked as part of that effect e.g. when faking a Prince one is also faking Camarilla as the Prince title can only be held by a Camarilla. > [LSJ 20050128] > > But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is > > concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct? > It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot > be the former save that you are the latter). > > [LSJ 20050130] > > Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it > "Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire > with a justicar title". > > Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire > with one [or two] levels of the Discipline." > The above should lead to that when faking to be a Justicar of X that one must also be faking to be of the sect Camarilla of clan X. To put the card Third Tradition: Progeny in play is as much part of the effect of playing the card as the part of the card that defines what it becomes... therefore while resolving the effect of putting the card in play to become a vampire should fall within the "aura" of the faking effect and thus become a vampire of clan X. "+1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar. Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire." If the text would read something along the lines of below I would agree with the ruling but as it stands I do not. "Put this card in play. After the action ends it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire."

Would be great to get clarity on whether or not when impersonating a Justicar of X one must also be impersonating to be of the sect Camarilla of clan X? If not, why not, and how is it different from a card eg requiring a Baron that implicitly is a card that requires a vampire of the sect Anarch? Also would be great to get more clarity as to why the effect of the card (Third Tradition: Progeny) is to make a distinction/separation between the part of the effect that puts the card into play and the part of the effect that defines what the card becomes when put into play, why are not both part impacted by the impersonation that is currently in effect?

> inm8 wrote: > > > [LSJ 20050128] > > > But she's still non-Camarilla as far as the Closed Session is > > > concerned, because it doesn't require a Camarilla vampire, correct? > > It requires a Justicar, and therefore a Camarilla (since you cannot > > be the former save that you are the latter). > > > > [LSJ 20050130] > > > Yeah, but why do the cards consider her Camarilla as well? When it > > "Requires a justicar" is shorthand for "Requires a Camarilla vampire > > with a justicar title". > > > > Just like the Discipline symbol is shorthand for "Requires a vampire > > with one [or two] levels of the Discipline." > > > The above should lead to that when faking to be a Justicar of X that one must also be faking to be of the sect Camarilla of clan X. > A card that requires something will always be played using the minimum requirement (the lowest common denominator). The title must be seen as Camarilla < Justicar < of clan X. A Baron title: Anarch < Baron < of city Y The lowest common denominator between "Camarilla < Justicar < of clan Giovanni" and "Requires a justicar" is "Camarilla < Justicar". The lowest common denominator between "Anarch < Baron < of Taipei" and "Requires an Anarch" is "Anarch". In the first case, the clan is irrelevant and ignored. In the second case, the title is irrelevant and ignored (a card requiring an Anarch does not require a Baron, and furthermore does not require a Baron of a specific city) Open War ("Requires a baron") is a card that sees Vlad as a Anarch Baron, but the city is ignored. Anarch Secession ("Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire.") sees Vlad as a prince (as an example), and since it's explicitly refering to the city tied to the title, as the Prince of Y (in whole). Third Tradition: Progeny ("Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar.") sees Vlad as a prince or a justicar, but since it's not refering to the city or clan tied to the title, and since the card doesn't require a vampire of a specific clan, it sees Vlad as a Camarilla Justicar, and a vampire whose clan is Tzimisce. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

How does Anarch Secession care more about the city than what Third Tradition: Progeny cares about the clan? Does the difference come from that one requires a title vs a Prince? Anarch Secession +1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire. This vampire becomes {Anarch}. If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city. Minions without titles cannot block this action. Third Tradition: Progeny +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar. Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire. You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire. Move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire cannot take any actions this turn.

> inm8 wrote: > How does Anarch Secession care more about the city than what Third Tradition: Progeny cares about the clan? > > Does the difference come from that one requires a title vs a Prince? > > Anarch Secession > +1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire. > This vampire becomes {Anarch}. If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city. Minions without titles cannot block this action. > "of the same city" (explicit cardtext). EDIT: more precisely: " If he or she had a city title... of the same city". Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> inm8 wrote: > > Anarch Secession > > +1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire. > This vampire becomes {Anarch}. If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city. Minions without titles cannot block this action. > > Third Tradition: Progeny > +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar. > Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire. You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire. Move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire cannot take any actions this turn. > Still don't understand how you are interpreting them as different. " If he or she had a city title... of the same city" is not a requirement and Vlad doesn't have a city title, still he gets to fake a city which is a lower denominator for AS but he doesn't get to fake the clan that also is a lower denominator for TT:P.

> inm8 wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > Anarch Secession > > > > +1 stealth action. Requires a ready, non-anarch, titled vampire. > > This vampire becomes {Anarch}. If he or she had a city title, put this card on him or her as a title card to represent the title of baron of the same city. Minions without titles cannot block this action. > > > > Third Tradition: Progeny > > +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-Sterile prince or justicar. > > Put this card in play; it becomes a non-unique 1-capacity {Camarilla} vampire of the same clan as the acting vampire. You may go through your library (shuffle afterward), ash heap or hand to find a Discipline card for this vampire. Move up to 2 blood from the acting vampire to this vampire. This vampire cannot take any actions this turn. > > > Still don't understand how you are interpreting them as different. > " If he or she had a city title... of the same city" is not a requirement and Vlad doesn't have a city title, still he gets to fake a city which is a lower denominator for AS but he doesn't get to fake the clan that also is a lower denominator for TT:P. > No, the clan tied to the title isn't explicitly mentionned on TT:P, contrary to the city tied to the title on AS. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I think that it's important that becoming baron by AS is just optional part, so it is not a requirement, thus Vlad should be seen only as titled vampire, but not with a city title (by your logic Ankha, "Camarilla < Prince" is lower common denominator than "Camarilla < Prince < of X"), and only becoming an anarch after AS is applied, not a baron. Vlad only fakes requirements and nothing else. Does AS require a city title? No, it doesn't.

> KoRneeshon wrote: > I think that it's important that becoming baron by AS is just optional part, so it is not a requirement, thus Vlad should be seen only as titled vampire, but not with a city title (by your logic Ankha, "Camarilla < Prince" is lower common denominator than "Camarilla < Prince < of X"), and only becoming an anarch after AS is applied, not a baron. > Vlad only fakes requirements and nothing else. Does AS require a city title? No, it doesn't. > AS requires a titled vampire. Vlad can choose any title that fits the requirement (the same way Vidal Jarbeaux can in order to play for instance a Parity Shift once as the Prince of whatever city, and once as the Justicar of whatever clan). If AS were not refering specifically refering to city titles, then the card wouldn't care about whever Vlad is Prince of London, primogen or something else. But it's not the case, so if Vlad plays the card as the Camarilla Prince of London, he would get the Anarch title of the Baron of London. Now TT:P requires a prince or justicar. Vlad can play it as the Camarilla Prince of London, or the Camarilla Giovanni Justicar. Since TT:P doesn't explicitly cares about the title for its resolution, the lowest common denominator is Camarilla Prince or Camarilla Justicar (which has no effect on the resolution of the card; it could if it had a clause such as "if this vampire is a Justicar, you can search an additional skill card to put on the vampire"), and the clan used by TT:P is Vlad's clan. So you play the card with a title Vlad chooses in full, then you apply the minimal matching parts. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

So, long story short: Vlad can fake not only requirements, but also optional stuff if it is mentioned in the card text, provided it is relevant to what he can fake. Not logical for me, but not the first thing in VTES of this kind