Vampires contestint titles

Hello, what happens exactly when two Vampires with the same controller contest a Title (i.e. a Baron and a Prince of the same City)?

You will chose who will keep his title, pay the blood for tge chosen and the other lose his title, if you want to drain your own vampires (fir some reason that eludes me) you can pay for both, or don't pay the blood for both and in this case you chose the order, the first lose title the second keep David Resende - Prince of Teresina

Blood is only paid if choosing to continue to contest a title being contested i.e. it could result in both vampires loosing their title for two rounds and then one recovers it, during the first next unlock one vampire yields the title and the other doesn’t need to pay any blood as it isn’t contested any longer and then during the next unlock phase the vampire that didn’t yielded the title recovers the one they had > Contested Titles > > Some titles are unique. For example, there can be only one prince or baron of a particular city (see Vampiric Sects). If more than one vampire in play claims the same title, then the title is contested. While the title is being contested, the vampires involved in the contest are treated as if they have no title, but they remain controlled and may act and block as normal. > > The cost to contest a title is 1 blood, which is paid by the vampire during each of their unlock phases. Instead of paying the cost to contest the title, the vampire may choose to yield the title (or may be forced to yield, if they have no blood to pay). Only ready vampires can contest titles. Vampires in torpor must yield during the unlock phase. > > If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next unlock phase, ending the contest. > > The vampire yielding the title will now have no title and loses the benefits of the title for the remainder of the game. >

> garou66 wrote: > Hello, > what happens exactly when two Vampires with the same controller contest a Title (i.e. a Baron and a Prince of the same City)? > During the unlock phase of the player controlling one of the vampires that are contesting a title, that player chooses whether to continue contesting. If they choose to continue, the contesting vampire pays 1 blood. Note that if the vampire has no blood, they must yield. If the player chooses to yield, the vampire does not pay anything and loses the benefit of the title permanently. While the contest is ongoing, neither vampire has the benefit of the title. note: Previously barons paid an extra blood for contesting their baron title, but this rule was removed few years back. Now all vampires pay the same amount for their title contests: 1 blood. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

There were a few inaccurate answers here. You're talking about two vampires contesting a title while having the same controller. See [LSJ 20050331] : During his unlock phase, the controller decides who contests (pays a blood) and who yields (does not pay). He can decide to have both contest or both yield. If he decides to have only one contest the title, this vampire pays a blood and will get his title back during the next unlock phase, not the current one.

interesting ruling, my answer was solely based on the rulebook and I assumed that during the unlock one had to handle whether each vampire would contest the title independently and thereby be allowed to sequence the decision of each vampire, thus leading to that if the first vampire yielded the title it wouldn't count as contested title any longer for the second vampire and thereby they would get the title during next unlock phase and not have to pay any blood.. Why doesn't it work as I thought alt why does it work as per the ruling? > The cost to contest a title is 1 blood, which is paid by the vampire during each of their unlock phases. > > If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next unlock phase, ending the contest. >

I would appreciate an explanation if anyone knows the rationale beyond just that there is a ruling.

> inm8 wrote: > interesting ruling, my answer was solely based on the rulebook and I assumed that during the unlock one had to handle whether each vampire would contest the title independently and thereby be allowed to sequence the decision of each vampire, thus leading to that if the first vampire yielded the title it wouldn't count as contested title any longer for the second vampire and thereby they would get the title during next unlock phase and not have to pay any blood.. > > Why doesn't it work as I thought alt why does it work as per the ruling? > I have to admit I missed the part where the vampires were same controller. Afaik the rule that says you cannot self-contest is invoked - you must yield one of the titles if you would contest with yourself. I dont see why you would need to yield the another one, since no timing is given to this situation in the rules. Thus things happen in sequence, as they always do in VTES. And you can choose the ordering of the sequence as long as you must adhere to all the triggers before moving between phases. VTES loves sequencing, even pathologically so. So the cost of contesting must be paid since it is a trigger that happens during unlock. You must adhere to all the triggers before moving between phases. The contest cost sort of exists (is checked at start of unlock) and "lingers" even if you choose to yield the contest. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

If I´m not mistaken the rule that one cannot self-contest is only applicable to unique cards but not unique titles > DECK CONSTRUCTION > > [...] > You cannot control more than one of the same unique card at a time, and you cannot contest cards with yourself (if some effect would force you to contest a card with yourself, then you simply burn the incoming copy of the unique card). > Per the rules the choice of whether to continue to contest (and therefore having to pay the cost) or yield is done during the unlock phase per vampire i.e. there is no cost triggered before that choice has been made. Being a "during the unlock phase" effect and not an "at the beginning of the unlock phase" effect it is orderable just like other effects (e.g. Fame [LSJ 20010121] ) that happen during this time window. Based on the above and the rules it would seem logical that a player that has two vampires (A and B) contesting a title during the unlock phase where the first choice regarding the contest is that A yields would mean for B that the title is no longer contested and therefore doesn´t need to even make the choice and by extension, no cost has to be paid for a choice that wasn't needed nor made i.e. the state of the contest is not something that is statically registered at the beginning of the unlock phase and is applied based on that throughout the phase but is a live dynamic state I really fail to see how the ruling mentioned earlier is supported by the rules. > Contested Titles[ > > [...] > > The cost to contest a title is 1 blood, which is paid by the vampire during each of their unlock phases. Instead of paying the cost to contest the title, the vampire may choose to yield the title (or may be forced to yield, if they have no blood to pay). Only ready vampires can contest titles. Vampires in torpor must yield during the unlock phase. > > If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next unlock phase, ending the contest. >

The above would be exactly my thinking. Contesting titles with yourself was never mentioned as not following "the-golden-rule-of-sequencing-during-untap" AFAIK. Really curious about the reasoning for the ruling. <INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>

> lip wrote: > two vampires contesting a title while having the same controller. > > See [LSJ 20050331] > Ankha does this ruling stand? If yes, could you please explain why/how it technically works as it would mean my understanding is wrong (as described in my previous post).

> inm8 wrote: > > > lip wrote: > > two vampires contesting a title while having the same controller. > > > > See [LSJ 20050331] > > > Ankha does this ruling stand? If yes, could you please explain why/how it technically works as it would mean my understanding is wrong (as described in my previous post). > Yes. This is because the title is still contested: the contest doesn't end immediately when there's only one contender left. So if A yields, B must still pay 1 blood for the contest, or yield. The contest will then end during the next unlock phase (unless someone else joins the contest of course!) If B has not paid (=B yields too), then noone gets the title. > > rulebook wrote: > If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next unlock phase, ending the contest. > Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Two scenario for my clarity. 1) Player A successfully plays and passes Brujah Justicar on player B’s Theo Bell while player C has Jaroslav Pascek in play leading to the contest of the Brujah Justicar title. During the unlock phase of player B they choose to yield the Brujah Justicar title. Does player C during their unlock phase have to burn a blood to contest the title and only get it back during their next unlock phase? 2) Player A successfully plays and passes Brujah Justicar on player B’s Theo Bell while player C has Jaroslav Pascek in play leading to the contest of the Brujah Justicar title. During the unlock phase of player B they choose to contest the Brujah Justicar title and pays one blood. During the unlock phase of player C they choose to contest the Brujah Justicar title and pays one blood. During the unlock phase of player B they choose to yield the Brujah Justicar title. Does player C during their unlock phase have to burn again a blood to contest the title and only get it back during their next unlock phase? Brujah Justicar Cardtype: Political Action Title. Choose a ready Brujah. If this referendum passes, put this card on the chosen Brujah to represent the unique Camarilla title of Brujah Justicar. In this referendum, each ready Brujah gets 1 additional vote. Theo Bell Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Brujah Group: 2 Capacity: 7 Discipline: cel dom pre POT Camarilla: Theo may enter combat with any ready minion controlled by another Methuselah as a action. If you control a ready prince or justicar, blood hunts cannot be called on Theo. Jaroslav Pascek Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Brujah Group: 3 Capacity: 10 Discipline: for obf CEL POT PRE Camarilla Brujah Justicar: Jaroslav inflicts +2 damage with melee weapons. He can inflict 1 damage on each of your prey's Sabbat vampires as a action. +1 intercept.

> inm8 wrote: > Two scenario for my clarity. > > 1) Player A successfully plays and passes Brujah Justicar on player B’s Theo Bell while player C has Jaroslav Pascek in play leading to the contest of the Brujah Justicar title. > During the unlock phase of player B they choose to yield the Brujah Justicar title. > > Does player C during their unlock phase have to burn a blood to contest the title and only get it back during their next unlock phase? > B yields => C will get the title back during C' next unlock phase. So C doesn't have to burn blood or yield. > inm8 wrote: > 2) Player A successfully plays and passes Brujah Justicar on player B’s Theo Bell while player C has Jaroslav Pascek in play leading to the contest of the Brujah Justicar title. > During the unlock phase of player B they choose to contest the Brujah Justicar title and pays one blood. > During the unlock phase of player C they choose to contest the Brujah Justicar title and pays one blood. > During the unlock phase of player B they choose to yield the Brujah Justicar title. > > Does player C during their unlock phase have to burn again a blood to contest the title and only get it back during their next unlock phase? > No, it ends the same way as the previous scenario. You've just added a full turn of contest. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

As stated before: That's not exactly how the usual ordering in the untap phase happens and this totally seems an artificial layer of complexity. Why is the contest happening parallel and not sequenced? What's the reasoning? (besides the rules currently being written in a clumsy way ...) <INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>

> alf wrote: > As stated before: That's not exactly how the usual ordering in the untap phase happens and this totally seems an artificial layer of complexity. > Why is the contest happening parallel and not sequenced? > What's the reasoning? (besides the rules currently being written in a clumsy way ...) > It doesn't happen in parallel. You choose the order in which vampires pay or yield (which has little incidence, agreed). The thing is that the contest always last until the next unlock phase, even if there's only one contender left. Vampires A and B, controlled by the same Methuselah, contest a title. A chooses to yield. B, the only contender left, has to choose to pay or yield, because his title is still contested, even though he's the last contender. There are some cases where both A and B would have to yield (no blood left for instance). And if B pays, he won't be able to use his title until "the contest is ended, during the next unlock phase" (rulebook, paraphrased) Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

The key being that the rules say “your” instead of “their” where the latter could be argued to make more sense for titles as the vampires are the holders of them …but the rules are the rules > rulebook wrote: > If all other vampires contesting a title with your vampire have yielded the contest, then your vampire acquires the title during your next unlock phase, ending the contest. >

> Ankha wrote: > There are some cases where both A and B would have to yield (no blood left for instance). > And if B pays, he won't be able to use his title until "the contest is ended, during the next unlock phase" (rulebook, paraphrased) > All good and dandy, as I understand the "rule". I don't understand the "reasoning" behind this rule to be written as it is. So why is there a delay until the next untap phase? Historically? Intentionally? I get it, that it's the next untap phase if the contest was between two different controllers. But whatever. Otherwise it feels just clumsy to me. But fine. Will stop beating a dead horse. <INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>