Below question came up in the discord;
While having the edge and The Shard, London in play, can one have a Procurer that is in play recruit another Procurer with the help of The Shard by reducing the blood cost of it to 0?
Procurer,
Cardtype: Ally
Cost: 2 blood
Ghoul with 1 life. 1 strength, 0 bleed.
Procurer may move 1 blood from the blood bank to a ready vampire you control as a +2 stealth action.
The Shard, London
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Unique location.
If you have the Edge, you can lock this card to reduce the cost of a card you play by 2 pool or blood. Vampires can steal this location as a action; Ventrue get +1 stealth during that action.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> Yes.
>
But why (if so)?
A Procurer would not be able to announce the action since recruiting another Procurer would cost him blood, and a Procurer has no blood.
However, searching the Rulebook for something that supports my reasoning, I have not found anything.
I am confused.
National Coordinator Germany nc [dot] germany [at] magenta [dot] de
@inm8
Would this post you answered me cover the issue?
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/80515-can-a-minion-play-a-card-without-enought-blood-when-declares-the-action?start=0
A Procurer can use the Shard (nothing says that you need to be a vampire to use the cost reduction). The blood cost is zero. So procurer can announce that he is using the shard while playing the recruit action (and would be forced to use it as you told me).
Unless there is some obscure rule I don't know that says that allies cannot play cards that require blood because they don't have blood and that 0 blood also means that requires blood
> Coyote wrote:
> @inm8
>
> Would this post you answered me cover the issue?
>
> www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/80515-can-a-minion-play-a-card-without-enought-blood-when-declares-the-action?start=0
>
Thanks for the pointer, seems to stumbled onto something
I was thinking that it would be allowed, as I thought that only the inability to pay a blood cost was what prevented allies from being able to play cards with a blood cost, and just wanted Ankha to confirm that in this thread....but.
The rules seem to indicate that cards with a blood cost are only playable by vampires (and by allies playing card as a vampire)...which then means the answer is no....but the rules weren't always as per below
> Rulebook:
> A number in a red drop represents blood cost (the amount of blood the vampire must burn). Only a vampire with enough blood on them can play a card with a blood cost. A number in a white diamond with a skull represents pool cost (the amount of pool the Methuselah must burn). Only a Methuselah with enough pool can play a card with a pool cost.
>
The rule read a bit differently prior to V5
>
> A drop of blood with a number on the left side of a library card (in the middle of the side or in the bottom corner) indicates the amount of blood or pool that must be burned to play the card. A number in a red drop represents blood cost (the amount of blood the vampire must burn). A number in a white diamond with a skull represents pool cost (the amount of pool the Methuselah must burn).
>
> inm8 wrote:
> Below question came up in the discord;
>
> While having the edge and The Shard, London in play, can one have a Procurer that is in play recruit another Procurer with the help of The Shard by reducing the blood cost of it to 0?
>
Yes, since the card doesn't cost blood anymore.
I was looking for older rulings involving Sunset Strip, Hollywood or Jennifer Flame61, but couldn't find any.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> I was looking for older rulings involving Sunset Strip, Hollywood or Jennifer Flame61, but couldn't find any.
>
I did the same and also came up short…might be worth to consider a rewording of the current rule.
> Hakuron wrote:
> But why (if so)?
> A Procurer would not be able to announce the action since recruiting another Procurer would cost him blood, and a Procurer has no blood.
>
It is possible to use cost-reducing cards such as Shard, the Line, etc at any time, including when you announce the action to make an action that would otherwise be unplayable, playable.
My search-fu is not strong, but here is a ruling.
www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/80612-when-to-use-shard-the-line-when-action-becoems-to-expensive-after-announcement#108409
I admit I didn't think of the rule that an action that costs blood can only be attempted by a vampire, but I dont think it applies here. Technically an action that costs too much cannot be attempted either, but shard/line makes it possible.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
(EDIT) Forums working poorly, somehow created a double post even when there exists a script to prevent it..
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
Maybe the rule is a bit redundant.
A minion already should be able to pay the cost of a card when he plays it (both checking the cost at announce and at pay time). Covered already by the rules.
A minion can not simply play a card that cannot pay. An ally cannot pay a card that cost blood.
> Coyote wrote:
> Maybe the rule is a bit redundant.
>
> A minion already should be able to pay the cost of a card when he plays it (both checking the cost at announce and at pay time). Covered already by the rules.
>
> A minion can not simply play a card that cannot pay. An ally cannot pay a card that cost blood.
>
But they can pay it when it costs 0.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
I was on the fence about this but after having a read of the rulebook, my stance would be as follows:
Blood Cost (from the rulebook):
A number in a red drop represents blood cost (the amount of blood the vampire must burn). Only a vampire with enough blood on them can play a card with a blood cost.
The Shard:
If you have the Edge, you can lock this card to reduce the cost of a card you play by 2 pool or blood.
Applying the rulebook to the card:
The Shard ability is used after the card is played. The Shard must target a card after it has already been played. However the Procurer is unable to play the recruitment action in the first instance as Only a vampire with enough blood on them can play a card with a blood cost..
A non vampire is unable to recruit an ally with a blood cost by using the shard. Similar to how treaty of Laibach does not work on a Tremere.
To work, the shard would have to target a card in hand and reduce its cost BEFORE its played.
> Rathpex wrote:
> Applying the rulebook to the card:
> The Shard ability is used after the card is played. The Shard must target a card after it has already been played. However the Procurer is unable to play the recruitment action in the first instance as Only a vampire with enough blood on them can play a card with a blood cost..
>
No, you can use the Shard to reduce the cost of a card you couldn't play otherwise.
> Rathpex wrote:
> A non vampire is unable to recruit an ally with a blood cost by using the shard.
>
A card that costs 0 blood doesn't cost blood at all. Thus, it can be played an ally.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
I think I understand Rathpex reasoning.
Procurer costs 2 blood and you cannot reduce its cost before you play it, and, again from the rulebook:
Only a vampire with enough blood on them can play a card with a blood cost.
You cannot attempt something you can't do in hope that it will become legal later on.
Then again Shard can be used "to reduce card cost you play", so if it's supposed to be legally used in the described scenario, it seem that playing the card and checking if I can afford it is performed in the same window.
I guess is about timing
When you check if you can play a card?
When you decide the reduction cost?
If reduction cost goes before checking if you can play a card then you can play it as, when you check if you can play it, the cost, it is zero.
In case this is ruled (reductions goes before checking the card requisites) the procurer can use the shard to recruit another procurer.