The below question was asked in the discord which lead to some discussion and would be good to have an official ruling.
Can Camaraderie be played at superior by Angelo when the only other supporting vampire is Mata Hari that is unlocked? If not, please elaborate as to why not, thanks.
As per my interpretation, it is playable with the below rationale:
Angelo and you as the Methuselah play Camaraderie at as it has been ruled that minion cards are played by both and not just the minion --> ruling
The requirements of Camaraderie "Only usable if you control another ready unlocked Blood Brother of the same circle as this Blood Brother." are met by the below combo:
Mata Hari´s special allows her to be seen as a Blood Brother (that is in a unique "circle of one") as the card is played by "you" aka the Methuselah
Angelo´s special is applicable to himself when playing cards requiring which allows him to be seen as belonging to the same unique "circle of one" that Mata Hari belongs to as it isn´t limited to Blood Brother cricles
supporting ruling that he can mimic a "circle of one"
Assumption is that both Angelo´s and Mata Hari´s specials are applicable when the card is played simultaneously and that Mata Hari´s special is applicable also when "you" aka the Methuselah is playing a card with another minion
Angelo
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Blood Brother
Group: 3
Capacity: 7
Discipline:
Independent. Red List: All Blood Brothers may play cards that require Sanguinus as if Angelo were a member of any circle. Angelo can burn a location as a action. He cannot have or use retainers. Sterile.
Mata Hari
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Ravnos
Group: 4
Capacity: 7
Discipline:
Independent. 2 votes (titled): You and Mata Hari can play cards requiring a sect and/or clan as if she were of that required sect and/or clan. Red List.
Camaraderie
Cardtype: Reaction
Discipline: Sanguinus
Reduce a bleed against you by 1.
Only usable if you control another ready unlocked Blood Brother of the same circle as this Blood Brother. Reduce a bleed against you by 3.
I'd say no, because:
Mata Hari can count as a ready, unlocked blood brother, but the whole circle bit is not an innate trait applied by the rules to all blood Brothers. Just like Flight isn't applied to Clan Impetsonated Gargoyles, Infernal to impersonated Baali, or scarce to an impersonated Abomination/Trujah/Salubri/nagaraja, Mata Hari counts as a Blood Brother, but doesn't have a circle.
Compare with New Blood: if you summon history at superior for a new blood, or undue influence it up, or any other method of putting it in play that doesn't happen during influence phase, it has no circle.
Circle is not innate and therefore Mata has no circle.
Could be wrong, but that's how I read other cards in the sane situation.
Check the linked supporting ruling where there is also confirmation that all vampires belong to a circle, thing is that most belong to unique “circles of one” opposed to most Blood Brothers that belong to specific names circles
I'd say no, because Angelo is the one playing the reaction card.
Therefore Mata Hari's special doesn't trigger.
It's neither her nor "you" that plays the card.
"You" referring to non-minion-cards played by the methuselah (usually master cards) and reactions being minion cards played by a minion (in this case other than Mata Hari).
<INSERT CLEVER QUOTATION HERE>
> inm8 wrote:
> The below question was asked in the discord which lead to some discussion and would be good to have an official ruling.
>
> Can Camaraderie be played at superior by Angelo when the only other supporting vampire is Mata Hari that is unlocked? If not, please elaborate as to why not, thanks.
>
No. Mata Hari is not considered a BB by Camaraderie since 1/ she's not playing the card 2/ the card doesn't require a Blood Brother to play (no clan symbol in the requirement bar, doesn't state "only usable by a Blood Brother").
> inm8 wrote:
> As per my interpretation, it is playable with the below rationale:
>
> Angelo and you as the Methuselah play Camaraderie at as it has been ruled that minion cards are played by both and not just the minion --> ruling
> The requirements of Camaraderie "Only usable if you control another ready unlocked Blood Brother of the same circle as this Blood Brother.
>
It is not a requirement that a minion must meet in order to play the card, it is what we could call a "game state requirement" such as having a valid target when you play a card that requires one. The requirement to play the card for the minion is Sanguinus, and Angelo is meeting that requirement to play the card.
Controlling another ready unlocked BB is another requirement, but that does not apply to the minion playing the card, so it doesn't interact with Mata Hari's ability.
For instance, you couldn't use the burn option of the card if it had one if you control a vampire with Sanguinus but no other ready unlocked BB.
So basically, "you can play cards as if..." only matters for master cards you play. "She can play cards as if..." only matters for minion cards she plays.
> inm8 wrote:
> Mata Hari´s special allows her to be seen as a Blood Brother (that is in a unique "circle of one") as the card is played by "you" aka the Methuselah
>
Mata Hari isn't playing that card in order to mimick the clan (and it doesn't require a BB anyway).
The rest doesn't matter.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> ReverendRevolver wrote:
> I'd say no, because:
> Mata Hari can count as a ready, unlocked blood brother, but the whole circle bit is not an innate trait applied by the rules to all blood Brothers. Just like Flight isn't applied to Clan Impetsonated Gargoyles, Infernal to impersonated Baali, or scarce to an impersonated Abomination/Trujah/Salubri/nagaraja, Mata Hari counts as a Blood Brother, but doesn't have a circle.
>
> Compare with New Blood: if you summon history at superior for a new blood, or undue influence it up, or any other method of putting it in play that doesn't happen during influence phase, it has no circle.
>
> Circle is not innate and therefore Mata has no circle.
>
The default is that every vampire without an explicit circle has an implicit distinct circle (distinct = no vampire can have that same circle).
Angelo can "join" any circle for the purpose of the resolution of a card played by another BB, but it's a unique ability.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> So basically, "you can play cards as if..." only matters for master cards you play. "She can play cards as if..." only matters for minion cards she plays.
>
In the discord it was pointed out that this interpretation means that the Shard, only affects master cards, since it uses the text "you".
Name: The Shard, London
[FoL:1]
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Unique location.
If you have the Edge, you can lock this card to reduce the cost of a card you play by 2 pool or blood. Vampires can steal this location as a action; Ventrue get +1 stealth during that action.
Artist: Felipe Headley
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Ankha wrote:
> 2/ the card doesn't require a Blood Brother to play (no clan symbol in the requirement bar, doesn't state "only usable by a Blood Brother").
>
Is card text saying “Only usable by X”and “Requires X” equivalent to requirement X on the attribute bar when it comes “Y can play cards as if meeting X”?
> Ankha wrote:
> So basically, "you can play cards as if..." only matters for master cards you play. "She can play cards as if..." only matters for minion cards she plays.
>
Does this mean that the below ruling is reversed?
[ANK20221102]
Does this mean The Shard can only be used when “you” play master cards and isn’t applicable to minion cards?
The Shard, London
Cardtype: Master
Cost: 2 pool
Unique location.
If you have the Edge, you can lock this card to reduce the cost of a card you play by 2 pool or blood. Vampires can steal this location as a action; Ventrue get +1 stealth during that action.
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > So basically, "you can play cards as if..." only matters for master cards you play. "She can play cards as if..." only matters for minion cards she plays.
> >
> In the discord it was pointed out that this interpretation means that the Shard, only affects master cards, since it uses the text "you".
>
No, this is a wrong interpretation. Minion cards are indeed both played by the Methuselah and the minion. Camaraderie is played by both you and Angelo. However, since Mata Hari isn't playing the card, she doesn't interact with any of it since requirements to play a card can only be met by the minion playing the card (here: Angelo).
The Shard on the other hand doesn't bother about requirements, it reduces the cost of cards you (or your minions) play.
Meeting requirements to play a card and paying the cost are two different things.
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > 2/ the card doesn't require a Blood Brother to play (no clan symbol in the requirement bar, doesn't state "only usable by a Blood Brother").
> >
> Is card text saying “Only usable by X”and “Requires X” equivalent to requirement X on the attribute bar when it comes “Y can play cards as if meeting X”?
>
Yes, since it put a restriction on whether the card can be played and by whom.
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > So basically, "you can play cards as if..." only matters for master cards you play. "She can play cards as if..." only matters for minion cards she plays.
> >
> Does this mean that the below ruling is reversed?
> [ANK20221102]
>
> Does this mean The Shard can only be used when “you” play master cards and isn’t applicable to minion cards?
>
No, see above.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director