What if we updated these cards?

Hi folks, following the trend of certain underplayed cards recently getting subtle errata to be a bit better, which includes Quickness, Black Metamorphosis, or Tier of Souls, I was thinking about a few more cards I played myself, trying to make them work. Predictably, I failed Horseshoes - make it 2 dmg on pot and 3 dmg on POT. Still with no stealth, this update could do two things - potentially forcing vampires unable to block to hunt a bit sooner and perhaps more importantly, dealing with a Shadow Court Satyr in one shot if you are lucky enough to resolve it - which might not be a lot but could bump the card's profile a bit. Touch of Pain - reduce blood cost to 0 and/or bump the damage to 2 and 3 respectively. Even with both changes, I'm not sure if the card would be worthwhile as POT decks usually do not want to be this reactive to run Touch of Pain in any scenario... Still, the update could be enough for experimenters to reconsider the card, for example in a Parity shift-heavy vote deck Loose Cannon - unlikely to get a reprint due to two non-V5 disciplines present, but I'm guessing that even reducing the blood cost to 0 and adding "More than one Discipline can be used to play this card." would not really help to "fix" the card. Hopefully, it could make it a bit more viable in a few corner cases. Anything in addition to that would feel like a redesign of the card to me though. Other cards got nerfed, like Parity Shift or Pentex Subversion, by all accounts to positive effects. In this category, I currently have Dreams of the Sphinx - this card is super efficient and by my observation is in the vast majority or both tournament and casual decks, more than Direct Intervention, Giant's Blood, or Wider View. I mean is there a good reason not to have at least one Dreams in every deck? Other than being unable to afford that many copies... Due to its temporary effect, not even contesting seems to be a big deal. I saw multiple times players burning one Dreams for extra cards and playing the second one right away... Dreams of the Sphinx - to tweak the Dreams in a minimalist way, I'd add the Retribution clause: "A Methuselah can play only 1 DotS in a game." Admittedly, this change could still potentially allow every deck to run the card, but I believe it would also make it less ubiquitous in general... There are of course many other cards we could discuss but I'm curious if the changes proposed above would be in any way problematic as my experience with VTES is still fairly limited. Cheers. EDIT: Just in case, any ideas to improve/update VTES cards I posted in this thread are free to take by anyone, especially folks affiliated with BCP, to potentially use them for testing and/or releasing new or updated cards. Hope this helps

Other cards got updated in the past as well, for example Forest of Shadows, originally costing 3 pool, later just one. While it did not quite do the trick to push the card into the spotlight, it was a sensible change and perhaps the cost of zero could be the right one. In a similar way, I though of Banner of Neutrality: Banner of Neutrality - Requires an Independent or Anarch vampire. Only usable if a non-Independent or non-Anarch vampire is bleeding you. Reduce the bleed amount by 3. Once again, I don't think this change would do a lot but it could make the card marginally playable in certain metas. One more card for this post: Victim of Habit - [no changes to blood cost] +1 stealth action. Put this card in play and choose a card in your prey's ash heap by name. During any Methuselah's unlock phase, you may lock this card to remove three copies of a the chosen card in your prey's ash heap from the game to cause your prey to burn 1 pool. Not exactly meant to fight Legionnaires but I guess it could work Also, this update could discourage decks that play around 20 copies of KRC, Governs, Earth Melds, Undue Influences, Kindred Spirits, etc. Or at least, provide some moderately-efficient counter-measure to them because the card would continue to work after you score a VP or could respond to two-card combos more easily.. What do you think? Would these changes make or break the cards?

I've been barking up this tree for years. Victim is good enough. Touch of pain us meh, but Street Cred should totally cost 0 though. Horseshoes would need testing. Seriously though, look through old threads with similar ideas. My most recent one was a balance and logic argument around Brass Knuckles counting as a hand and melee strike, like Bhundi, and long explanation why mechanically and IRL it made sense. What I believe is most important is to think up some of these things BEFORE they get reprints. That way they go through playtest and aren't just wallpaper still. Edit: Dreams is fine. It's an ousting mechanism.

Haha, let's bark together then. I did a cursory search at the forum on card updates and errata but did not see a lot of relevant threads that would be recent... In any case, my proposals are meant specifically for V5-VTES, for the upcoming products (including legacy ones) and indeed, I'd love it if more underplayed cards could be considered for reprints, testing, and updates, along with new cards. Also, my benchmark for bringing up particular card update proposals here stem from my own testing and/or prominence in TWDA. Based on that, Victim of Habit does not appear to be good enough at all... I never saw anyone play it and everyone I asked about it thus far told me it is a terrible waste of blood and action... As for the Dreams, I like them too as they are, I just find them really powerful as the price of 1 pool is really low compared to the combined effect. And just the fact that literally any deck can benefit from running them (even if just for contest-"bleeding") with little to no downside is telling me the card might be a bit too OP... just my $0.02. More proposals: Becoming of Ennoia - Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase. Requires at least two other Gehenna cards controlled by other Methuselahs in play. During each Methuselah's unlock phase, he or she chooses a ready vampire he or she controls. The chosen vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage. Earth Meld cards cost 2 additional blood. After playing against several decks with cca 20 Earth Melds, I was wondering what can be done about them and later was happy to find Becoming of Ennoia... except I read the card text wrong, realizing it is pretty much impossible to even get the card into play. Maybe it made sense in 2004 to have the [controlled by other Methuselahs] limitation when Gehennas were ubiquitous but in current metas, the card is no longer playable (as seen from TWDA as well). Not sure if the proposed change would somehow break the flavor or lore behind the card but even with the change, it would help only a handful of event-dedicated decks - therefore it appears this change is the least we could do to boost the card... Secret Passage - compared to Secure Haven, I think making Secret Passage a trifle would balance out these two cards nicely. Being on the side of caution, it does not appear that this update would make Secret Passage widely playable all of a sudden, but it would make a bit better. Even flavor-wise, a trifle Secret Passage just feels right Epiphany - as I've observed, by now, there are not very many vamps for whom Epiphany is even viable, i.e. when playing the base version in multiples makes more sense than the other way around + playing Legacy... Epiphany being the original merge card, it seems fair to me if it also had the burn option to enable more decks. Not sure if it was deliberate to leave Epiphany as it is when Legacy was introduced in 2016 but by now, it does not appear this little update would shake things up too much. EDIT: per later discussion, the requirement for Epiphany would have to go as follows for the burn option to work as expected: Requires an unmerged base vampire for whom an advanced version exists. In general, just adding the burn option or making a master card a trifle appears like a really elegant way to improve certain cards' profiles without breaking VTES rules, flavor, or WoD lore.

Once again, I would fix Rampage. In addition to Army of Rats (which is fine) it is the only Discipline card with no superior. Besides Rampage's effect is really really bad ("Ⓓ Burn any location. If you control the location, this is a +1 stealth action") My Change: RAMPAGE +1 Stealth pot: Ⓓ Burn any location. POT: Ⓓ Enter combat with a ready minion controlled by another Methuselah. Finnish Politics!

Thank you. Street Cred - I haven't even tried to play Street Cred before but its TWDA record speaks clearly enough and I'd like to back ReverendRevolver's idea - having the card with no blood cost sounds perfectly reasonable. As for Rampage, I agree that it should be updated if not redesigned. However, having any stealth on a POT card, named "Rampage" to boot, feels massively off-flavor. Even if you are rampaging through your own location, how could it be a stealthy action ? But - several disciplines have a dedicated Enter Combat card, Celerity, Animalism, even Presence or Auspex. Did you know Potence does not have one (not counting Anarch cards)? That seems like a sizable gap to me. At the same time, when you burn a location, you are likely destroying other resources along the way, no? Also, my guess is that you need to burn a location less frequently than enter combat... Thus, what do you think of this version? Rampage - pot: Ⓓ Enter combat with a ready minion controlled by another Methuselah. POT: Ⓓ Burn a location and burn 1 pool from its owner if the action succeeds. Edit: I added "owner" above to make the effect even more unique and possibly worthwhile. Take that Powerbase: Montreal and The Rack - first I stole it then I burned it

Just a quick note: when you steal The Rack or P:M you become the controller ("owner") of the card, so you would burn your own pool. Still, nice idea, cards like Street Creed definitely need de-walling them.

When Johannes Walch visited Finland years ago he brought with him a weenie Potence deck that used a lot of Street Creds and it worked brilliantly. But agree that the cost seems rather unnecessary penalty. Finnish Politics!

Hm, per 1.3. Golden Rule of Card Ownership Your cards are never transferred to another player permanently as a result of card play. At the end of the game, the cards you began the game with are returned to you. If you are ousted before the end of the game, any of your cards that other players control remain in play until burned as normal. and Ash Heap: The discard pile. Cards that are burned or discarded are returned to their owner's ash heap. from the rulebook, it appears that VTES rules do distinguish between a controller of a card an it's owner (just like in Magic). It would be weird otherwise. Is there a rule somewhere to confirm that while in play, the controller and owner are the same?

The term used in-game is "controller". The owner relates to the physical ownership of the card, i. e. after the game, you go home with the cards you brought with you. I think it's only there to underline the fact that the ante mechanic was dropped from the game.

Well, yes, the distinction is clear though. While current cards do not use "owner" for in-play cards, if you were to break that practice, it appears that it would still work to distinguish the controller and owner... But either way would work with the updated Rampage - you'd just burn the location when your prey steals it or controls it I had a few more candidates for becoming a trifle: Malkavian Prank - Master. Trifle. Each other Methuselah holds 1 to 4 counters in his or her hand. Guess the number of counters in each Methuselah's hand. If you guess correctly, you gain that much pool from his or her pool. If you guess incorrectly, that Methuselah gains that much pool from the blood bank. Only one Malkavian Prank can be played each turn. Svadharma - Trifle. Add 2 blood to a ready Ravnos. Only one Svadharma can be played each turn. Ascendance - Master. Trifle. Gain 1 pool. Only one Ascendance can be played each turn. and the most obvious of them all Tajdid - Trifle. Only one Tajdid can be played in a game. Until the end of the game, the Blood Curse no longer prevents Banu Haqim from committing diablerie.

> KoRneeshon wrote: > The term used in-game is "controller". The owner relates to the physical ownership of the card, i. e. after the game, you go home with the cards you brought with you. I think it's only there to underline the fact that the ante mechanic was dropped from the game. > No, it's there because there are cards with design intent based around the mechanics the distinction provides, see www.vekn.net/forum/rules-questions/78568-the-capuchin-burns-temporary-control , the discussion and rule reversal that followed said discussion. After all someone walking away with your physical property without your permission is a theft, not some hobby rules situation. In the same vein it's not defined in the rules to not verbally assault your fellow players even if it's the only way you can think of words that rhyme during Madness of the Bard. Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

Alrighty. Moving on... Let's improve more cards. Another elegant way to update underplayed action cards is to give them a free unlock. Case in point, IMHO, all these cards could benefit from having an additional "... and unlock this vampire/minion at the end of the action." , without making them too strong: Red List , Priority Shift , Anonymous Freight , Kaymakli Barrier , Rave , Jack of Both Sides , Of Noble Blood Similarly, some equipment could be boosted: IR Goggles - Electronic equipment. This minion gets an optional maneuver each combat. If the action to equip with the IR Goggles is successful, the acting minion may unlock at the end of the action. EDIT: I added the "may" clause Maybe the above change could even be added to Light Intensifying Goggles which deprecated the IR Goggles before

> charmer wrote: > More proposals: > > Epiphany - as I've observed, by now, there are not very many vamps for whom Epiphany is even viable, i.e. when playing the base version in multiples makes more sense than the other way around + playing Legacy... Epiphany being the original merge card, it seems fair to me if it also had the burn option to enable more decks. Not sure if it was deliberate to leave Epiphany as it is when Legacy was introduced in 2016 but by now, it does not appear this little update would shake things up too much. > > In general, just adding the burn option or making a master card a trifle appears like a really elegant way to improve certain cards' profiles without breaking VTES rules, flavor, or WoD lore. > I wholeheartedly agree with your last statement, but regarding Epiphany, one should entertain the thought that it can be played by ANY vampire, except advanced and merged. So if you have like an Anarch Convert in play you cannot use Burn Option of Epiphany since there's a ready vampire who can play it. NC of Hungary ///

Are you sure about this? Epihany says "Requires an unmerged base vampire." While the rules do not seem to be explicit about this, it appears that, for example, Anarch Convert cannot be considered to be an unmerged base vampire because it does not have an advancement card... In any case, speaking of Anarch Convert - it is one of the most efficient ways to convert vampires. We could improve the original conversion card as follows: Go Anarch - Burn option. +1 stealth action. Requires a ready non-titled, non-Anarch vampire. Put this card on the acting vampire and unlock this vampire. This vampire is considered Anarch. If this vampire changes sects, burn this card. More cards could be updated with the burn option while remaining balanced, for example: Rebirth , Praetorian Backer

> charmer wrote: > Are you sure about this? Epihany says "Requires an unmerged base vampire." While the rules do not seem to be explicit about this, it appears that, for example, Anarch Convert cannot be considered to be an unmerged base vampire because it does not have an advancement card... > Name: Epiphany [SoC:R] Cardtype: Action +2 stealth action. Requires an unmerged base vampire. Unlock this acting vampire and search your crypt, uncontrolled region, or ash heap for his or her advanced version to move to him or her. Shuffle your crypt afterward. Artist: Leif Jones Any vampire that is not 1) advanced vampire or 2) merged vampire is unmerged base vampire. Based purely on them not having been merged and them not being advanced vampire. Therefore any such vampire can take Epiphany action, unlock, perform the search and per rules of failing a search (for example Magic of the Smith not finding the Helicopter still in your deck that would oust you if found) not find the advanced version that does not exist. As burn option checks for ability to meet the requirements, only time to burn the hypothetical future version of Epiphany would be when you have no vampires or have merged/advanced vampires out. Either way it already has free unlock and +2 stealth so it easily cycles from the hand as is. The Moment ruling for players ability to fail to find things is ended is when Epiphany has to have something to search and the burn option becomes more valid. Not likely to happen soon as the can of worms where people are forced to remember and keep track of their equipments in the library and the following judge calls from mistakes in such memory maintain the status quo. We're talking about ongoing player and design intent where "may" is agressively being added to existing card texts as people keep forgetting mandatory effects and thus disrupting play. See www.blackchantry.com/2023/03/06/87-cards-added-to-vampire-the-eternal-struggle-legacy-singles/ Sargon change as example. Current text for that card is Name: Sargon [BL:U2, POD:DTC] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Baali Group: 2 Capacity: 5 Discipline: cel dai obf pre Independent: After Sargon performs a successful action, you gain the Edge. Infernal. +1 strength. Artist: Christopher Shy I highlight this as it will hopefully help you align your design intent with the official one, increasing the likelihood of success. For example your IR goggles suggestion would more likely to pass if it used "may unlock" version. Now if the wording goes through, and the player forgets it, there is need to figure out and possibly reverse game state. Pure poison for tournament players, not for in game but out of game reasons. Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

Okay then, if any unmerged, non-advanced vampire is considered "unmerged base" then the erratum could include the updated requirement clause as well: Requires an unmerged base vampire for whom an advanced version exists. While it is true that cycling the card by playing it without intent to find is fairly safe, it can still be intercepted to throw a monkey wrench into someone's plans, similarly how hunt actions are sometimes caught... IMHO, Epiphany and Legacy should be on the equal footing as each supports different decks - thus, adding the burn option still has my vote I'd fully expect that no card would get an erratum I proposed here without also getting a reprint as we saw before with other cards. (Oddly enough, MotS rulings or the rulebook itself do not seem to explicitly state that a player can choose not to find a thing they are searching for - so is it just implied?) As for the "may" clauses, I fully agree with that, Magic has had this templated a long time ago but templating in VTES is a lingering issue... I took the wording for the updated goggles from Baseball Bat but making the unlock optional makes more sense for reasons you stated. I'll go back and update the posts for these two cards, thank you. In the meantime, let's fix more cards, shall we? Keep it Simple - [blood cost reduced to 0] Reduce a bleed against you by X+1 where X represents the amount of stealth the acting minion has when this card is played. My understanding is the design of this card was very cautious at the time, but as the historical records shows, this effect never really found a niche to work even moderately well...

> charmer wrote: > Okay then, if any unmerged, non-advanced vampire is considered "unmerged base" then the erratum could include the updated requirement clause as well: Requires an unmerged base vampire for whom an advanced version exists. While it is true that cycling the card by playing it without intent to find is fairly safe, it can still be intercepted to throw a monkey wrench into someone's plans, similarly how hunt actions are sometimes caught... IMHO, Epiphany and Legacy should be on the equal footing as each supports different decks - thus, adding the burn option still has my vote I'd fully expect that no card would get an erratum I proposed here without also getting a reprint as we saw before with other cards. > > (Oddly enough, MotS rulings or the rulebook itself do not seem to explicitly state that a player can choose not to find a thing they are searching for - so is it just implied?) ... > No, it's quote clearly defined in the rules under wording templates www.vekn.net/rulebook/3-playing-the-game > “Search”: Some effects have you search your library or crypt. You do not have to announce the card you are searching, and searching can result in not finding the card. If you search your library or crypt, you must shuffle it afterwards." > It has origins in couple decades ago discussions groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/g1aNkwhLOHI/m/7ru6wAWBgZIJ and few replies below groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/g1aNkwhLOHI/m/jQSA2E5S3NoJ thankfully it was included to the rulebook and when the rulebook was revised with V5 by BCP still maintained there (unlike some other things that should have stayed...) Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

​​OK, got it. ​Another card that failed to take off is The Becoming - comparing it to other breed cards, this one seems to be clunkiest of them all.. Let's see what can be done: The Becoming - [blood cost reduced to 1] +1 stealth action. Requires a non-sterile vampire. Put this card in play; it becomes a 0-capacity non-unique vampire of the same clan and sect as the acting vampire and cannot act this turn; put up to 3 master discipline cards from your hand, library and/or ash heap to this vampire; move up to 1 blood from the acting vampire to this new vampire. Burn this vampire if they have no capacity-increasing discipline cards. Not even the above updates are likely to "save" the card as your deck would have to be full with discipline cards and would need more help to cycle them fast or use them for additional effects like Shock Troops. Maybe Discipline juggling could somehow be reused in thin-blood alchemy ? Next up, I found another card with a good idea but with sub par execution. I'd tweak it thusly: Masai Blood Milk - +1 stealth action. Requires a ready Laibon. Unique. Put this card on a Laibon you control. That Laibon may burn this card as a +1 stealth action to get +1 strength for the remainder of the game. If that action is successful, that Laibon may unlock. Burn this card during the discard phase of your next turn.

Charmer, Becoming of Ennoia Gehenna. Do not replace until your next discard phase Requires at least two other Gehenna cards controlled by other Methuselahs in play. During each Methuselah's unlock phase, he or she chooses a ready vampire he or she controls. The chosen vampire takes 1 unpreventable damage.. Earth Meld cards cost 2 additional blood. There. I fixed it for all of us. Earth Meld is the best combat card in the game, it's just fewer people gave it credit until recently.

Haha, nice, I'd take it. In this thread, I'm trying to propose modest changes that would improve cards and potentially make them viable for some tournament decks. But if it really came to it, this version of the card could still make it through testing and into the print - fingers crossed EDIT: Maybe Earth Control could be thrown into the mix for flavor purposes as well

I've got more: Special Report - Master: out-of-turn. Choose a ready vampire you control. That vampire unlocks and attempts to block with +1 intercept even if intercept is not yet needed. If a vampire attempts to block this action and fails, it becomes locked before action resolution. Once this action you may burn 1 pool to give that vampire +1 intercept. If Dreams of the Sphinx is an okay card as it is (see earlier posts on that ), then having a generic surprise one-of block attempt available to those who can find a free spot in their master module seems like a fair proposition to me. What do you think? Precision - +1 stealth action. cel: Ⓓ Choose a card by name. Your prey must discard a copy of that card, if possible. If this action succeeds, the acting vampire may unlock at the end of the action. CEL: As above, and if your prey discards a copy, this vampire may burn 1 blood to burn 1 of your prey's pool. Another card designed with a nifty idea that never really worked for being too limited. Just a free unlock could do the trick here. Even flavor-wise, a celerity incursion like this could easily warrant an unlock unless disrupted, no?

Not done yet: Sabbat Ritae we got as cards proved to be too expensive to be playable virtually anywhere. My understanding is that a ritus cannot succeed without sacrifice but how about to make them permanent? Stealth Ritus - [costs 1 blood] Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. Only usable when the action is announced. Choose another ready Sabbat vampire you control. The chosen vampire burns 1 blood, or this card has no effect. This action gets +1 stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed. Put this card on this vampire. When this vampire announces the same kind of action, it gets +1 stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed. and in the same vein: Martial Ritus - [costs 1 blood] +1 stealth action. Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. Choose another ready younger Sabbat vampire you control. The chosen vampire burns 1 blood, or this card has no effect. Put this card on the younger Sabbat vampire and unlock this acting vampire. The Sabbat vampire with this card gets +1 strength. During your next unlock phase, burn this card.

There are more cards that could use a serious boost: Legwork - [no blood cost] Only usable by a vampire, or a mortal or ghoul ally. Do not replace until your next unlock phase. +1 intercept. Not usable by a minion vampire with more than 0 intercept. Since the Entrancement, allies are relatively fragile and this update could help them be a bit more worthwhile overall. Legionnaires and Nephandi purposefully excluded, Antigen purposefully included, War Ghoul is included unintentionally Forgery - [Action modifier] Requires a ready vampire with capacity 5 or more. Only usable during a bleed action. Ⓓ Bleed. If the bleed is successful, this acting vampire gains 1 blood plus additional 1 blood for each 2 points of bleed beyond the first the bleed had. The card effect was unique but was never viable for even casual decks it seems. Maybe this update could help. Zip Line - +2 stealth action. Put this card on the acting any minion you control. The minion with this card may burn this card to get +1 stealth until end of turn. For what the card originally did, this might be a modest update but a young vampire supplying the zip line to a multi-acting high-cap could make the difference. Or just "equip" the Political Ally - probably not OP, right ?

A couple more suggestions: Salt of Thoth - [blood cost reduced to 0] Usable by a locked Tremere. Cause a Ⓓ action targeting a location you control to fail and put this card on that location. You may burn this card to cause a Ⓓ action targeting this location to fail. Even the cost reduction seems inconsequential to make the card playable but I guess it could at least be used to protect your Montreal, Rack, or Shard with some efficiency... Suppressing Fire - Only usable by a ready unlocked minion with a gun other than the acting minion. The blocking minion gets -2 intercept. I like the design idea behind this card - maybe the boost to the cept reduction could make it more worthwhile?

On Discord, Lionel/Phoenix posted a chronological compilation of VTES card changes: gist.github.com/lionel-panhaleux/a4a9cad2e492af7c45c50a1cea7e6cf6 Thank you, much appreciated!

Now let's add a post about nerfing a card for a change. I've been told that I'm not crazy to think Govern the Unaligned is kind of an OP card in both modes. Yet since Jyhad, it was never updated and considering it already has a V5 print, it is unlikely to be... Still, I was thinking about how to balance it so that it is not an auto-include for pretty much every competitive DOM deck out there. I thought that the effect was not the problem - it's the cost. So here goes: Fair Govern the Unaligned [costs 1 blood] Ⓓ Bleed with +2 bleed. +1 stealth action. The acting vampire burns 1 blood to add 3 blood to a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region. Square Govern the Unaligned [costs 1 pool] Ⓓ Bleed with +2 bleed. +1 stealth action. Add 3 blood to a younger vampire in your uncontrolled region. If it really came down to it, which one would you prefer?

I found another couple of cards that historically saw very little play and could be, relatively easily, improved: Speed of Thought - [blood cost reduced to 0] cel: Ⓓ Bleed. If more than 1 pool is bled with this action, ignore the excess. Minions without Celerity cannot block this action. CEL: Ⓓ Bleed. If more than 2 pool is bled with this action, ignore the excess. Minions without superior Celerity cannot block this action. Just a modest update that could still work for some decks. I think Night Moves as a card is still better in most scenarios but allowing the superior effect to bleed for 2 would also make it unique in comparison... Feline Saboteur ani+obf: Ⓓ Choose any Methuselah. The chosen Methuselah discards 2 cards at random from their hand and burns the top 2 cards of their library. ANI+OBF: As above, but he chosen Methuselah discards 4 cards at random from their hand and burns the top 4 cards of their library. For the investment of an action and the requirement of two disciplines, the proposed numbers above might be justified for the card to have some reasonable impact...

Another way to improve underplayed cards is to make them modal, similar to like the Kholo cards are: Animal Magnetism [Action Modifier]/[Reaction] Only usable during a referendum. ani+obf: This vampire gains 1 vote. ANI+OBF: This vampire gains 3 votes. Iron Glare pot+pre: [Action Modifier]/[Reaction] Only usable during a referendum. This vampire gains 2 votes. POT+PRE: Only usable during a bleed action. +2 bleed (limited). Under the Skin [Action Modifier]/[Reaction] Only usable during a referendum before votes and ballots are cast. pre+aus: Choose a younger vampire. That vampire abstains. PRE+AUS: As above, and lock that vampire at the end of the action if the referendum passes. Emissary [Action Modifier]/[Reaction] Requires a ready baron. Only usable during a referendum before votes and ballots are cast. Choose another ready unlocked anarch you control. Lock the chosen anarch. That anarch gains 3 votes. Any Camarilla vampire older than that anarch can lock to cancel that anarch's votes and ballots.

Epiphany/Legacy could be the same text, so you don't have to worry about the order that you bring a vampire to play. Epiphany +2 stealth action. Only usable by an unmerged vampire that has an merge option. Unlock this acting vampire and search your crypt, uncontrolled region, or ash heap for his or her base or advanced version to move to him or her. Shuffle your crypt afterward if you search it. Precision, feline saboteur, zip line and other actions could be buffed with a burn 1 blood to untap instead of free untap. Special Report Master. Out-of-turn. Choose a ready minion. That minion can unlock and attempts to block with +1 intercept even if intercept is not yet needed. If the minion attempts to block and fails, it becomes locked before action resolution. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

Thank you, those wordings are a bit cleaner than previously suggested. "Burn 1 blood to unlock" sure seems to be a fine boost for some cards, I'll find some more For the moment, I had a few Blood Sorcery cards to look at: Cauldron of Blood - [costs 0 blood] Not usable on the first round of combat. tha: Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. THA: Not usable on the first round of combat. Burn 1 blood to Strike: hand strike at +4 damage. Serenading the Kami - [costs 0 blood] Only usable as the action is announced. tha: The acting vampire gets +1 strength this action. THA: As above, but with +2 strength. Machine Blitz tha: Strike: hand strike at +1 damage or choose a weapon possessed by the opposing minion. Strike: ranged; X+1 damage, where X is the amount of damage the chosen weapon would inflict as a strike. THA: As above, with +1R damage. and if the opposing minion is not ready at the end of combat, burn the weapon.

The following actions card could be boosted by adding: "At the end of this action, this acting vampire may burn 1 blood to unlock." Entrenching, New Management, Blood Bond, Wave of Insanity, Public Enemy, Haven Hunting, Brick Laying, Threading the Path of Orpheus, Celestial Harmony, Erosion, Elemental Stoicism It is meant to work even if the action is unsuccessful. Similarly, the following snippet could be added to these cards: "If this action is successful, this acting vampire may burn 1 blood to unlock." Writ of Acceptance, Talith, Nightstick, Zombie, Resplendent Protector And finally, add "If the referendum passes, this acting vampire may burn 1 blood to unlock." to these cards: Warrant, Regaining the Upper Hand, Hierophant

Our playgroup was mulling over cards needing an update and Acrobatics was mentioned several times. Indeed, Celerity appears to be a discipline that should, flavor-wise and mechanically, have the easiest access to this effect, yet the card still costs a blood and is virtually unplayable. Hence the suggestion to update the card: Acrobatics - [costs 0 blood] cel: Additional strike (limited). CEL: Strike: dodge, with an additional strike (limited). It appears as a clear-cut case too because: * Quickness was updated in a similar way without really breaking any metas. * Obtenebration is going away and the best dodge+additional effect in the form of Arms of the Abyss is likely not going to appear in V5's Oblivion in the same form. (They are still different cards but vie for similar slots in decklists). * Anarchs already have two of these effects for CEL and ANI What do you think?

+1 for free Acrobatics! In fact, following Quickness, I'd also consider making Blur and Lightning Reflexes 0-cost cards.

> KoRneeshon wrote: > +1 for free Acrobatics! In fact, following Quickness, I'd also consider making Blur and Lightning Reflexes 0-cost cards. > Blur is too good for free. It's almost always 2 strength vampire or someone with a 44 using it. Other cards mentioned, sure. Barely playable as is.

Having additional strength means someone played another card to do that or specifically built the crypt for it, which is an additional cost on its own - even more so for equipping .44. Similarly, I think you can't say Conditioning allows bleeds for 8 for just one blood - there's a significant additional cost involved, e.g. +2 bleed vamp and GtU played before.

> charmer wrote: > Our playgroup was mulling over cards needing an update and Acrobatics was mentioned several times. > > Indeed, Celerity appears to be a discipline that should, flavor-wise and mechanically, have the easiest access to this effect, yet the card still costs a blood and is virtually unplayable. Hence the suggestion to update the card: > > Acrobatics - [costs 0 blood] > cel: Additional strike (limited). > CEL: Strike: dodge, with an additional strike (limited). > > It appears as a clear-cut case too because: > > * Quickness was updated in a similar way without really breaking any metas. > * Obtenebration is going away and the best dodge+additional effect in the form of Arms of the Abyss is likely not going to appear in V5's Oblivion in the same form. (They are still different cards but vie for similar slots in decklists). > * Anarchs already have two of these effects for CEL and ANI > > What do you think? > Oblivion and Obtenebration have the same discipline symbol, all the obtenebration cards will continue to be playable like thaumaturgy cads are now blood sorcery cards, or i'm wrong on this? David Resende - Prince of Teresina

Pre-V5 cards will still be playable. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

Oblivion and obtenebration will have different icons, as announced by BCP. Current obt is legacy only discipline. Sabbat.Black Hand Shakar: Lech loathe ranged weapons. Once each action, he may burn 1 blood to become Camarilla Prince of Krakow until the end of the action.

> Lech wrote: > Oblivion and obtenebration will have different icons, as announced by BCP. Current obt is legacy only discipline. > Booring NC Russia

different icons ? i have missed this annoucement, this way will be easy to balance i suppose David Resende - Prince of Teresina

I don't think it was announced yet. The icon briefly leaked via a playtesting app. To get us back on track, I believe it is clear that Blur should be left alone if only to keep things balanced - not only is it widely played as is (in 207 TWDs right now), it has a unique effect no other card has and making it free would invalidate several other Cel strike cards. Now, shall we fix some poor retainers? Starting with the one that has 0 entries in TWDA: Faithful Servant [costs 0 blood] Mortal with 1 life. If the action to employ ~ is successful, unlock the acting vampire. If the vampire with this retainer is in torpor, he or she gains 1 blood at the beginning of his or her minion phase. Seems to me, that this card was never properly tested and was released with the "better safe than sorry" attitude... The above change might make it worthwhile for some combat decks but I could imagine making it even better. Childling Muse [requires a Malkavian][costs 1 pool] Changeling with 1 life. This Malkavian gets +1 bleed. The turn this Malkavian employed ~, he or she can use the discard phase action to unlock. With Tasha, Camera Phone etc already available, the Childling Muse only appeared in a single TWD more than 10 years ago. In this case, reducing the cost did not feel right but there should be some boost for the investment. Maybe the above change could help somewhat without propping up S&B too much. Fortune Teller [requires a Ravnos][costs 0 blood] Mortal with 1 life. When ~ is employed and during your minion phase, you may look at one card picked at random from your prey's hand and look at one card picked at random from your predator's hand. I originally wanted to tack on an effect that the cards you already saw would be put face-down in front of its owner, not to be picked from the next time but it would likely bloat the card text too much... This next one is curious because is has 20 TWDA entries but not a single one after 2010: Marijava Ghoul [requires Presence][costs 2 blood] Ghoul with 2 life. The minion with this retainer gets +1 stealth when attempting an action that requires Presence. The minion with this retainer and with superior Presence gets +1 stealth instead. Feels cleaner and more consequential this way - what do you think?

But wait, there's more: Looking at the new Tzimisce vamps, I remembered a card that has seen very little play but turns out I misremebered it along the lines I'd like to improve it now : The Mole [Animalism] / [Celerity] / [Dominate] Requires a ready anarch. Only usable when a non-anarch minion is acting. ani: Only usable by a locked vampire. This vampire unlocks and attempts to block. cel: +1 intercept. Not usable if the acting minion has Celerity. dom: Only usable when you are being bled by a younger vampire. Lock this vampire to cause the action to fail. Even with the above improvement, the card would be only moderately boosted as it has other restrictions. But surely Tzimisce Anarchs could infiltrate other Anarch groups and having access to an unlock or a bleed fail could be useful... I found two more cards that were designed as too narrow despite their effect being worthwhile. I attempted to improve them by merely broadening their reach: Mistrust Master. Burn a scarce vampire or an independent vampire with capacity 8 or less in torpor or move a ready scarce vampire or an independent vampire with capacity 8 or less to his or her controller's uncontrolled region, with all cards and counters on him or her (which are out of play as long as the vampire remains out of play). Mistaken Identity [costs 0 blood] Only usable if a Ventrue antitribu Sabbat or Anarch vampire is hunting. The action fails and if the acting vampire has no blood, they go to the acting vampire goes to torpor.

In www.blackchantry.com/2023/11/14/4207/ , we learned we can finally expect some errata regarding Emerald Legionnaires and Ashur Tablets. We know the changes have already been determined but how about adding some predictions for fun? My prediction for nerfing the Legionnaires without making them unplayable (meta wording): Pay 1 pool when successfully resurrecting a Legionnaire. I heard others (incl. Martin from Vienna) to mention another option: You can only resurrect one Legionnaire each turn. As for the tablets, here's what I think could help to add to the card text: "... choose up to thirteen non-master library cards from your ash heap;" I heard others mentioning perhaps a weaker erratum idea: You can only play one Ashur Tablets each turn. In case we can expect a rule update regarding MMPA in general, this particular one would be great IMHO: The maximum on non-trifle master cards a methuselah can play each turn is set to 2 (regardless of how many MPAs would otherwise be allowed by effects in play). Looking forward to the errata reveal EDIT: Here it is : www.blackchantry.com/2023/12/31/errata-tournament-rule-change-and-new-cards-legality-date/

Let's hope many of the changes posted here and much more may be released as a 30 years special revision. Many cards have interesting effects but due to too specific restrictions or just an incorrect cost are almost unplayable. The legionnaires nerf was too harsh, now we need 3 ready HoS anb a legionnaire to be able to use the special once. Pay the pool again ( without the option to reduce with charisma and similars ) and require at least one HoS for each legionaire would be a more balanced option. During your unlock phase, you can choose a ready not selected previously this turn and remove 7 cards in your ash heap from the game and pay 1 pool to move an Emerald Legionnaire from your ash heap to the ready region with 2 life. Archbishop of Itaocara Prince ID #510

> "Sambomb wrote: > > The legionnaires nerf was too harsh, now we need 3 ready HoS anb a legionnaire to be able to use the special once. > 2 HoS and 1 Legionnaire are enough to trigger the EL once. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I very much agree with Sambomb that releasing a legacy product specifically focusing on old cards with updated text would be an amazing gift to the VTES community. I heard players complain that V5 gets it all under the new license and while that is largely true and also necessary to move the game forward, we have seen in this thread alone that Legacy VTES could also be boosted without having to print new legacy cards... Today, I am reviewing some locations that were designed with 'flavor over substance' and unfortunately seen very little to no play, which I find very unfortunate as these represent real places, sometimes even tourist destinations. Would be nice to improve their profiles and make them more memorable in VTES and beyond: Elysium: Sforzesco Castle Master: unique location. Costs 0 pool When a vampire you control blocks a Camarilla vampire, you may lock this card instead of locking the blocking vampire. While non-Camarilla vampires are likely not to always follow the rules on an Elysium, the effect of the card does not imply to me that a blocked Camarilla vamp would either So maybe this small change could work. San Lorenzo de El Escorial, Spain costs 1 blood This equipment card represents a location and does not count as equipment while in play. Unique. The vampire with this location may steal up to 2 blood from an uncontrolled minion in your predator's an uncontrolled region as a +1 stealth Ⓓ action. Not sure about any lore implications of this change but this poor card does not literally show anywhere in TWDA or PDA. Removing the restriction, you could use the card as an offensive tool against your prey, make cross-table deals, or use it as a pseudo-Vessel. Still does not seem very strong even with the new wording, what do you think? Ruins of Villers Abbey, Belgium This equipment card represents a location and does not count as equipment while in play. Unique. If the action to equip this card is successful, this acting vampire may unlock at the end of the action. The vampire with this location may burn X blood before range is determined on the first round of a combat to get X optional maneuvers for that combat. Still distinct enough from Ruins of Ceoris IMHO, I think a free unlock would could make the card relevant for some decks... And speaking of locations, here's a tip for a card that could even be reprinted in V5 and could perhaps shine for the first time in VTES history: Political Seizure costs 1 pool requires a Lasombra vampire Choose a location controlled by another Methuselah. This card contests the chosen location as if it were the same card, even if the other location is not unique. You can pay the cost of the contest in blood from a ready Lasombra vampire you control. If the last copy of that location would be yielded, instead burn this card and take control of the other card, face up. The new Lasombra is coming anyway and this could become a unique tool in their arsenal, slightly more playable this time I'll be back with more, cheers.

> charmer wrote: > I very much agree with Sambomb that releasing a legacy product specifically focusing on old cards with updated text would be an amazing gift to the VTES community. > For what it's worth, I fully agree. The game has a ton of cards which are potentially interesting, but effectively wallpaper due to current/original wording. A "legacy pack" of a select set of these, updated to "playable" power level, would be amazing. That of course would require a bit of testing, and possibly new art in many cases, so I understand why totally new cards are probably a priority for BCP. But still, one can hope

Here here! Finnish Politics!

OK, more location card updates: Arcanum Chapterhouse, Alexandria Master: unique location. Each of your predator and prey burns 1 pool during his or her unlock phase for each Hunting Ground he or she controls. Any minion may burn this card as a Ⓓ action. That's the step one. Maybe to make it more fun, we could also add: Any vampire can steal this card as a Ⓓ action that costs one blood. Lyndhurst Estate, New York costs 1 blood This equipment card represents a location and does not count as equipment when in play. Unique. Once during each political action, the vampire with this location can burn X blood to gain X additional votes. Compared to Praxis Seizure cards and similar, Ferraile, or Ventrue HQ, reducing the cost seems like a good start to make the estate a bit more appealing. Not sure if that would be enough... Cairo Int'l Airport costs 1 pool Master: unique location. Any minion you control may burn 1 blood on an uncontrolled minion in your prey's uncontrolled region as a Ⓓ action. Any minion you control may add 1 blood to an uncontrolled minion in your uncontrolled region as an action. Can't confidently tell whether this update is not OP with Jake Washington, other allies, or low caps in general but the Airport as is apparently never saw play anywhere thus far... Dartmoor, England costs 2 blood This equipment card represents a location and does not count as equipment while in play. Unique. The vampire with this location gets +1 stealth on any action requiring Animalism or Protean. Once each turn, if such an action is successful, this vampire can get 1 blood from the blood bank or burn one blood to unlock. Cost reduction and/or a free unlock upon equipping seemed like an easy way to boost this card. But I was thinking about something a bit more unique and useful and this Dabblerification might just do the trick

> charmer wrote: > Not done yet: > > Sabbat Ritae we got as cards proved to be too expensive to be playable virtually anywhere. My understanding is that a ritus cannot succeed without sacrifice but how about to make them permanent? > > Stealth Ritus - [costs 1 blood] Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. Only usable when the action is announced. > Choose another ready Sabbat vampire you control. The chosen vampire burns 1 blood, or this card has no effect. This action gets +1 stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed. Put this card on this vampire. When this vampire announces the same kind of action, it gets +1 stealth, even if stealth is not yet needed. > > and in the same vein: > > Martial Ritus - [costs 1 blood] +1 stealth action. Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. > Choose another ready younger Sabbat vampire you control. The chosen vampire burns 1 blood, or this card has no effect. > Put this card on the younger Sabbat vampire and unlock this acting vampire. The Sabbat vampire with this card gets +1 strength. During your next unlock phase, burn this card. > Thematically I sorta like their transient nature, so that the rite invites itself to be repeated. Also permanent effects really cascade in power in a way that can get out of hand later on from design elsewhere. I think the easier tweak is to increase the numeric value as stealth and strength is not terribly unbalancing, especially as few Sabbat clans are truly desperate for either. It's a situation where more is more. Stealth Ritus 1 Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. Only usable when the action is announced. Choose another ready Sabbat vampire you control. The chosen vampire burns 1 blood , or this card has no effect. This action gets +2 stealth, +3 stealth if a directed non-bleed action, even if stealth is not yet needed. My rationale: It's to encourage Sabbat harassment of people's permanents at the table, which is thematic, especially for rushes and other naughtiness. It already has a minor advantage in that it is cyclable stealth (clause: "even if stealth is not yet needed"), and at +2 stealth comes out at a wash for old stealth disciplines like Obtenebration as a way to spread out the blood costs. The stealth increase pushes not-stealthy clans into solid stealth at a viable risk, which is a good way to get blood/pool counters off the table -- you get to do what you wanted at the risk of eroding your position. It also has nice complementary resonance to High Aye, as that one does +1 stealth, +2 if undirected. Martial Ritus 1 +2 stealth action. Requires a ready Sabbat vampire. Put this card on a younger Sabbat vampire and unlock this acting vampire. The Sabbat vampire with this card gets +2 strength. During your next unlock phase, burn this card. My rationale: This is a weird one, as the acting minion's action is recovered. In a cascading capacity crypt it works... OK. The bigger issue when I tried it is twofold: a) getting it through, b) getting it to hurt enough matter. The first issue a) needs stealth support, but that then competes with the second issue b) as the meager +1 str also needs combat (and reaction) support.to squeeze out that value. Too much competing support chokes out the deck's limited slots. Here you can save on some of that stealth and combat support to focus on combat and reaction support. Summary: The fact that you can use both Rituses to burn away 3 blood to get +4 stealth for temporary +2 strength until next unlock phase is not lost on me, and is as I intend. That's a lot of blood off the table, all the while you preserve the bigger vamp's action, can cycle out stealth, and encourage more blocking reactions. It is inflationary, and thus flirts with power creep, but its temporary nature reduces its power concerns considerably. At those numbers I'd even be enticed to splash this Sabbat sect tech, as either card stands solid on its own. There's probably a broken build I'm missing, but of yet I cannot see it compared to what's already good out there.

I think we can make Cairo Int'l Airport a bit more mischievous than it currently stands. Cairo Int'l Airport 2 Master: unique location. Any minion with 2 or 3 life you control may burn 1 blood on an uncontrolled minion in your prey's an uncontrolled region as a Ⓓ action. Any minion may burn this location as a action that costs 2 or 3 life. Rationale: Three life is harder to do for most mortal, non-ghouled, non-imbued minions. Two blood prevents most disposable 1 cap vampires, and leaves a clan low-capped vampire thirsty. The blood/life requirement prevents most of the weenie abuse this could have (Tupdogs, etc.), as minions of such resources often have better things to do as a directed action. Annoying, but not brutal, and not easy enough to remove to be a priority. Also fun with cross-table responses to Governs & Enchants down!

Thank you for your ideas, there's certainly more than one way to improve all these underplayed cards. With some luck, Sabbat is coming this year and with it, perhaps some Ritae (as they are part of VtM V5), fingers crossed Regarding the cascading permanent effects, I'm not sure how big of a problem they are as they always carry a risk of being too slow to assemble them in the first place, or be rebuffed at a crucial moment by a Signet, Pentex, a DI, or a random S:CE... We even got Monstrous Form in V5 recently, which you can stack as much as you want, it does not cost any blood, and gives you access to 3 modes... To conclude my block about location improvements, here are two more cards I found: Jericho Founding Requires a non-Camarilla vampire. Successful referendum means each Methuselah loses 1 pool and all locations you don't control are burned. Any Methuselah can keep any locations he or she controls by repaying their pool cost, or 1 pool if the location has no cost. It would be nice to have more cards with non-symmetrical effects. The TWDA record of Jericho Founding could easily justify the update above. And in a similar vein...: Can't Take it with You Successful referendum means each Methuselah you gains 1 pool. Each Methuselah then burns 1 pool for each equipment, location or retainer card he or she controls.

I just bought a few cards for my strictly non-competitive decks and I though about improving them ever so slightly to make them viable in niche deck archetypes. Unfortunately, none of these cards apparently saw any serious play or tournament successes despite their design potential... Starting with... Liberty Club Intrigue I thought this one could be good in the current Anarch-heavy meta but no, all good interceptors and barons are 6+caps The tweak here is quite obvious: Liberty Club Intrigue Requires a ready titled non-Anarch vampire. +1 stealth action. Choose up to two Anarch vampires with capacities of 5 or less. Each chosen vampire is locked and does not unlock as normal on his or her next unlock phase. Think about it, even Magaji and Giovanni could play this Next, two Sabbat cards: Harvest Rites [costs 1 blood] +1 stealth action. Requires a Sabbat vampire. Put this card on this vampire. The attached vampire gets +1 hunt. A vampire can have only one Harvest Rites. The card's been apparently updated already to get "+1 hunt" instead of "get one more blood from a hunt once per turn", to no avail... Here's a quick fix: "... If this action is successful and this vampire has one or more blood, they unlock and cannot hunt this turn." Bloodbath - here's how we could add both some juice and flavor to it: Bloodbath [costs 1 blood] +1 stealth action. Requires a ready archbishop, priscus, cardinal or regent. Move 2 blood from the blood bank to a ready Sabbat vampire with capacity above 4 and unlock them. Put this card on that vampire. The vampire with this card gains 1 additional vote unless he or she has a non-bishop title. A vampire may have only one Bloodbath. Finally, I discovered Guide and Mentor. Apparently a piece of wallpaper for all these years, perhaps marginally viable now with the new Salubri archetypes. But what if this card could be a bit more spicy: "... While this card is in play, each vampire you control can have up to two archetypes if they are of different names." Wouldn't is be cool to be able to assemble an Curmudgeon Rebel, Loner Dabbler, Cavalier Perfectionist, Bravo Creepshow, Sociopath Monster, or a Traditionalist Guru? None of these combinations appear broken, what do you think?