Potential Logical changes to a few melee weapons

So, There are some things that bothered me alot as a new player almost 20 years ago, that dont come up at all now.(because some of the cards are unplayably bad) But they still make 0 sense. I do apologize, as this was brought up in less detail awhile ago. www.vekn.net/forum/expansion-sets-card-ideas/78211-giving-more-melee-weapons-bundi-value But with PoD, and reprints popping up in precons, this felt like a good time to bring it up again. Bundi: Melee weapon Costs 2 pool. Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike). Bearer may prevent 1 damage from each melee weapon strike made against him or her. This is not a "Bundi", because that's a city in India. It's a Katar. In the 18th and 19th centuries, ornate katars were made in this city. When ccp/whitewolf were in charge, it was a moot point, didn't matter. But now, Along with the fact that at LEAST 2 other melee weapons in vtes made 100% more sense than this obscure thing to count as both a melee weapon and hand strike. Because another weapon from India also would do similar things, with a name that's just "tiger claw" in hindi Bang Nakh Melee weapon. 2 pool Strike: strength+2 damage. This is obviously closer in art and name than the bundi. But why the heck is it not a hand and melee strike? I can totally see that coming up when someone's got me by the lapels more realistically than a long push dagger like the Katar. Similar to the Katar, it goes back to at least the 1600s. To say nothing of the most common and least "vtes useful " of these…. Brass knuckles Melee weapon. Strength+1 damage each strike, only usable once each combat. Brass knuckles evolved from (you should have guessed) an Indian weapon, older than the other 2 (12th century) and were found in Western culture by the 1800s. 0 cost? You can buy them at souvenir shops labeled as "belt buckles " so that checks out. Once per combat? That's harsh. I never understood why that's not once per round. Or, obviously, why it's not also a handstrike. In high-school, I remember people hiding these under the long sleeves of their hoodies for the ensuing fights after rivalry football games. Any movies about small time criminals after WW2 is bound to have a greaser or a guy with bad teeth in a bowler hat putting on brass knuckles. Super common. To punch people with. Like as a "hand strike". Even while grappling. So, before these admittedly limited use cards get reprints, can we do the right thing and AT LEAST make them all do "hand and melee" strikes, like bundi? I'd personally like to see more. Brass Knuckles Cost0 Melee weapon. Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike),only usable once each round. Now not great, but not absolutely useless. Bundi (katar) Melee weapon Costs 2 pool. Strike: hand strike at +1 damage. (This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike). Bearer may prevent 1 damage from each melee weapon strike made against him or her. I don't think this is bad, because of that prevent part. Dropping it to 1 pool is too cheap, but I could be wrong. Nobody plays cleaver or bastardSword. Maybe a reduction is reasonable? Bang Nakh Melee weapon. 2 pool Strike: hand strike at +2 damage.(This strike is both a hand strike and a melee weapon strike). These aren't game breaking, by any means. But they fix a logical issue I've had for ages regarding bundi counting as a hand strike and the 2 knuckles worn melee weapons not. Realistically, grapple is why melee weapons are trash(grappleshuts down the best combat, sce, as well as bats and guns, and by happenstance other garbage stuff too). The best one is WWS. Followed by any combo with Talbots Chainsaw(-not technicallya "melee" weapon). None of these changes breaks anything. Of the 5 crypt cards that benefit from melee weapons, none benefit more from these than blade of bellona or bundi as is.

My only other issue is Nightstick Melee weapon. Strike: strength+1 damage. Or strike: prevent 3 damage to this striking minion from the opposing minion's next hand or melee weapon strike this round (including any currently-resolving hand or melee weapon strike). Only usable once each round. Why? Because of the once each round clause. Without that, it would be playable. Anything with or has access to additional strikes, and maneuvers. Striking to prevent and then hitting someone with a stick seems like it's thematically in line with celerity in the source material as well as the other "stick" cards in vtes (WWS, kerrie, poker) There are 32 (+wws)melee weapons in print that I know of, and Chainsaw, Talbots Chainsaw, and Blowtorch that are only usable as a weapon at close range but not labeled as such. Most are unplayable. Stick and Talbots are the best non gun weapons in the game, and everything else melee is pretty narrow, Blade of Bellona, your odd one off meat hook, or an agg poking femur or knife. The rest are basically wallpaper. Is there a risk errata-ing these?

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > Realistically, grapple is why melee weapons are trash(grappleshuts down the best combat, sce, as well as bats and guns, and by happenstance other garbage stuff too). > No, they are trash because they are weaker than their gun counterpart for the same price. Consider Bang Nahk vs .44 Magnum. Price: the same Damage: 3 on the opposing, 1 on the bearer for BN, 2 on the opposing and 0 on the bearer for .44 Magnum Even if the damage difference is the same, it's infinitely better not to take damage at all, because you will never get to torpor this way, and can do as many combats as you want. Furthermore, being at long range protects you from many strikes. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I totally agree with ReverendRevolver. As a side note, note that Bundi's ability to be used both as a melee and hand strike interacts in the following way with Immortal grapple: Cannot be used with a strike card that reads: "Strike: make a hand strike." but can be use it with a strike card that reads "strike: make a weapon strike" (eg. {Brute Force}). In that case, the strike is still considered a hand strike (ie. can be chosen if {Immortal Grapple} has been played) [LSJ 20080702-1] (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/JtLgB7Apqq0/lWdtq38KJ-wJ) [LSJ 20090114](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/fZIdIRDDxdo/dtdSNVk_IIkJ) Lackeyname: Kris

> Khaan wrote: > I totally agree with ReverendRevolver. > > As a side note, note that Bundi's ability to be used both as a melee and hand strike interacts in the following way with Immortal grapple: > > Cannot be used with a strike card that reads: "Strike: make a hand strike." but can be use it with a strike card that reads "strike: make a weapon strike" (eg. {Brute Force}). In that case, the strike is still considered a hand strike (ie. can be chosen if {Immortal Grapple} has been played) [LSJ 20080702-1] > > (groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/JtLgB7Apqq0/lWdtq38KJ-wJ) [LSJ 20090114](groups.google.com/d/msg/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/fZIdIRDDxdo/dtdSNVk_IIkJ) > Vaguely important now, because Roundhouse is quite playable, but pushing the limit costs blood for the same effect and BF is weaker with a dnr. Roundhouse can't be used, since bundhi wording is thstbit is the strike.

> Ankha wrote: > > > ReverendRevolver wrote: > > Realistically, grapple is why melee weapons are trash(grappleshuts down the best combat, sce, as well as bats and guns, and by happenstance other garbage stuff too). > > > No, they are trash because they are weaker than their gun counterpart for the same price. > Consider Bang Nahk vs .44 Magnum. > Price: the same > Damage: 3 on the opposing, 1 on the bearer for BN, 2 on the opposing and 0 on the bearer for .44 Magnum > > Even if the damage difference is the same, it's infinitely better not to take damage at all, because you will never get to torpor this way, and can do as many combats as you want. > > Furthermore, being at long range protects you from many strikes. > We can dive into that rabbit hole, I'm a notorious user of 44 Magnum. Conceal it out, and In a vacuum (if nobody plays cards) you shoot for 2, take none. But people play cards, and with the 44 has answers; slams to close, you can pursuit to long. Ivory bow? Sideslip at superior. can blow up the gun, but that's typically 1 per deck, the real issue is putting them down round 1 with additionals , or pressing to end before playing psyche and hoping no more crows in the next combat. Similar if they DotB, you're hoping to deliver 3 strikes at close range to drop them, because they'll come out ahead otherwise. The only thing that really trumps guns in a solid deck is is free sce that untaps (earth meld) if ran in numbers exceeding 15 where they will always have one even if you psyche. Melee weapons will NEVER be able to have that level of efficiency. (Cost efficiency compared to the gun equivalent would actually be an idea for another card, some weapon that routinely can be used in pairs to explain a prevent 1 as well as a strike. With my suggested modification, brass knuckles would balance as a strictly worse TsP or zip gun. ) But, currently can't work with weapons outside of bundi, prevent and press uses stick for efficiency reasons. What harm can come from brass knuckles or bang nakh going in decks instead of heroic might or a baseball bat? It's not about being game breaking, it's a matter of making the cards work logically (which is cornercase, but nice for new players to see) as well as taking cards from unplayable to barely playable.

In general melee weapons are overcosted by at least 1 pool. So Bang Nakh should count as hand strike and cost 1 Bundi should prevent any closed ranged strike Bastard sword/meat cleaver should cost 0 Brass knuckles and poker should unlock after equip or something ets. NC Russia

> elotar wrote: > In general melee weapons are overcosted by at least 1 pool. > > So Bang Nakh should count as hand strike and cost 1 > Bundi should prevent any closed ranged strike > Bastard sword/meat cleaver should cost 0 > Brass knuckles and poker should unlock after equip or something ets. > I don't disagree that they're overcosted, but I'm just pushing for a few of them to make sense thematically. If we look at WWS compared to other melee weapons, it get used because it's 1 card to pull out in combat, and lasts a few strikes. Compared to zip gun, it does double damage, while typically being used with to take 0 damage Compared to a guaranteed 1 from the weapon. So from where I'm seeing it, a cost reduction doesn't help cleaver, bastard sword, or poker. Arget Baton and Joulmons axe both cost 0 and do strength +1 with other cool stuff. An immediate trifle style untap would help. Bundi, Bang Nakh, brass knuckles, dagger, and cleaver all ostensibly could for thematic reasons get a "burn 1 pool to equip this as a pre" or "you may use a discard phase action to equip a minion you control with this card". Because they're small. Thematically, im just after 2 cards doing hand and melee strikes, and brass knuckles not being unplayably limited. Once a round is cool. I'd say taking knux to: Brass Knuckles 0cost Melee weapon. Strike: hand strike at +1 strength (counts as both a hand and melee weapon strike). Only usable once a round. You may use a discard phase action to equip a locked minion you control with this card. Makes it playable. Not just barely playable, but actually playable. Bundi can still cost 2 if it prevents hand or melee damage. I'd say Bang Nakh can cost 2 as well if it gets the hand strike and discard equip thing. Because it's 2 pool for a heroic might(3 blood) or Preturnatural Strength (without tsp limitation) at without needing a discipline. This puts the knuckle melee weapons on a playable level, just behind WWS. Thoughts?

So, like this? Lifted strike text verbatim from bundi, lifted discard phase action eqip from Ayo Igolis wording (because "may" sounds better than "can") If they're already tapped, it avoids tooling up an untapped ready blocker.

> Ankha wrote: > No, they are trash because they are weaker than their gun counterpart for the same price. > Consider Bang Nahk vs .44 Magnum. > Price: the same > Damage: 3 on the opposing, 1 on the bearer for BN, 2 on the opposing and 0 on the bearer for .44 Magnum > > Even if the damage difference is the same, it's infinitely better not to take damage at all, because you will never get to torpor this way, and can do as many combats as you want. > > Furthermore, being at long range protects you from many strikes. > Bang Nakh et al. would not be trivially weaker than guns IF they were hand strikes also. Ability to function under grapple would actually make them usable, especially when coupled with something like Salubri Antitribu. Soo.... errata? Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > > So, like this? > Lifted strike text verbatim from bundi, lifted discard phase action eqip from Ayo Igolis wording (because "may" sounds better than "can") > If they're already tapped, it avoids tooling up an untapped ready blocker. > This is great, actually. It won't make for great decks, but it would make people go "huh, how about that", which is good. "Oh, to the Hades with the manners! He's a complete bastard, and calling him that insults bastards everywhere!" -Nalia De-Arnise garourimgazette.wordpress.com/ www.vekn.net/forum-guidelines

> ReverendRevolver wrote: > > So, like this? > Lifted strike text verbatim from bundi, lifted discard phase action eqip from Ayo Igolis wording (because "may" sounds better than "can") > If they're already tapped, it avoids tooling up an untapped ready blocker. > Would use this, 100%.

So, nobody thinks the equip is too much? Obviously, I think that makes it playable, whereas the other changes just move it into not being unplayable. I believe playtesting Brass Knuckles this way would provide useful feedback for the future of melee weapons (reprints and new) going forward. Because they're useless wallpaper now(almost all of them), but I don't want them to do too much.... just be playable.

I'd make Press the design identity of melee weapons. Guns give you maneuvers and are thought to be played with CEL. So melee could give you press and are thought to be played with POT and FOR. With this approach in mind we could have at one hand brass knucks, bundi, bang knak and garrote (please don't forget about garrote) as hand strike + damage + press and on the other side baseball bat, axes, bastard sword, poker and such as (more) damage + (more) press. This mindset still doesn't solves "it loses to magnum" but I think that's more a magnum problem than a melee problem.

> Nac wrote: > I'd make Press the design identity of melee weapons. Guns give you maneuvers and are thought to be played with CEL. So melee could give you press and are thought to be played with POT and FOR. > > With this approach in mind we could have at one hand brass knucks, bundi, bang knak and garrote (please don't forget about garrote) as hand strike + damage + press and on the other side baseball bat, axes, bastard sword, poker and such as (more) damage + (more) press. > > This mindset still doesn't solves "it loses to magnum" but I think that's more a magnum problem than a melee problem. > I agree with presses making sense with the design identity of melee weapons, and having things that are obviously going to get under a grapple helps with that alot. Maneuvers and Psyche make magnums fantastic, it would be nice if grapple could make brass knuckles viable...