I would like to know what qualifies as "played to call the referendum" and "used to call the referendum" in the below scenario and a few extra related questions.
Methuselah A has Vampire A1 take the action/play Charming Lobby with Kine Resources Contested in hand and announced as the intended referendum that reaches resolution unblocked.
Questions:
1) Is Charming Lobby played to call the referendum and Kine Resources Contested is only played to provide a referendum as Charming Lobby doesnt have one on its own?
2) Is Kine Resources Contested played to call and provide the referendum and Charming Lobby is only played for it other effects?
3) Are both Charming Lobby and Kine Resources Contested played to call the referendum as Charming Lobby is a political action but doesn´t have a referendum on its own?
4) Is Kine Resources Contested "used to call the referendum" and therefore provides the 1 vote from it?
5) Is Charming Lobby a political action card or is it an action card enabling a political action?
6) If Charming Lobby is canceled as played (e.g. Direct Intervention) is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?
7) If Charming Lobby is blocked is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?
8) Does requirements and costs need to be met of the political action card in hand or the effect in play to be useable/playable by Charming Lobby?
> Rulebook
> Political action cards: A political action card can be played to call a referendum as an action
>
> Rulebook
> A political action is an action that is used to call a referendum.
>
> Rulebook
> If a political action is successful, its cost is paid, and the referendum is called.
>
> Rulebook
> If a political action card was used to call the referendum, that card provides 1 vote for the acting vampire’s controller.
>
> Rulebook
> Referendum: The part of a political action or a blood hunt referendum, during which the terms are set, the votes and ballots are cast and the effects are applied (if it passes).
>
Charming Lobby
Cardtype: Action
Discipline: Presence
+1 stealth political action.
This vampire calls a referendum listed on a political action card in your hand (play that card) or allowed by an effect in play. If the referendum passes, then the next referendum called by any vampire thereafter passes automatically.
As above, and this vampire gains 2 votes in that first referendum.
Kine Resources Contested
Cardtype: Political Action
Allocate 4 points among two or more Methuselahs. Successful referendum means each Methuselah burns 1 pool for each point allocated.
> inm8 wrote:
> Questions:
> 1) Is Charming Lobby played to call the referendum and Kine Resources Contested is only played to provide a referendum as Charming Lobby doesnt have one on its own?
> 2) Is Kine Resources Contested played to call and provide the referendum and Charming Lobby is only played for it other effects?
> 3) Are both Charming Lobby and Kine Resources Contested played to call the referendum as Charming Lobby is a political action but doesn´t have a referendum on its own?
>
Both are played. Charming Lobby is played when the action is announced. KRC is played when CL reaches successful resolution (per CL's cardtext).
If you play Delaying Tactics, only the KRC go back to its owner's hand. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/8FHCL4AQblI/m/DejFKS9wmXUJ
> inm8 wrote:
> 4) Is Kine Resources Contested "used to call the referendum" and therefore provides the 1 vote from it?
>
Yes.
> inm8 wrote:
> 5) Is Charming Lobby a political action card or is it an action card enabling a political action?
>
The latter.
"political action cards" are identified with the political action icon.
The same way that Anonymous Freight is not an "equipment card" even though it is an "equip action".
There may be a confusion since "political action" appears both in the cardtype ("political action card"), and in the type of the action ("political action").
"Equipment card / equip action" are easier to distinguish, but the analogy is the same.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/9HtmVwBkGdE/m/YHEVLeB7Lj4J
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Zl0GyvDtnZM/m/PfM2Xwv6r4oJ
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Zl0GyvDtnZM/m/u8MNrvEQzgkJ
> inm8 wrote:
> 6) If Charming Lobby is canceled as played (e.g. Direct Intervention) is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?
>
No. The CL has not resolved successfully, so the KRC was not played (see also DI vs Concealed Weapon).
> inm8 wrote:
> 7) If Charming Lobby is blocked is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?
>
No. Same reason.
> inm8 wrote:
> 8) Does requirements and costs need to be met of the political action card in hand or the effect in play to be useable/playable by Charming Lobby?
>
Yes. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/x_u1Qtiguzg/m/FZjjjIQu-FoJ
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Could you please elaborate on the first statement you made:
> Charming Lobby is played when the action is announced. KRC is played when CL reaches successful resolution (per CL's cardtext).
>
does this mean that one does not announce which political action to take before blocks are declined? Can I change my mind if I draw another political action card during the action?
Prince of Bonn, Germany
Apologies ahead of time as the post may be a little long and I know you don't like TLDR kind of posts.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > Questions:
> > 1) Is Charming Lobby played to call the referendum and Kine Resources Contested is only played to provide a referendum as Charming Lobby doesnt have one on its own?
> > 2) Is Kine Resources Contested played to call and provide the referendum and Charming Lobby is only played for it other effects?
> > 3) Are both Charming Lobby and Kine Resources Contested played to call the referendum as Charming Lobby is a political action but doesn´t have a referendum on its own?
> >
> Both are played. Charming Lobby is played when the action is announced. KRC is played when CL reaches successful resolution (per CL's cardtext).
> If you play Delaying Tactics, only the KRC go back to its owner's hand. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/8FHCL4AQblI/m/DejFKS9wmXUJ
>
That both cards are played I both agree with and fully understand.
Here is a ruling making it clear that "(play that card)" is not reminder text and here is a ruling making it clear that the PA card isn´t played in the normal fashion.
My question though is if the PA card is actually played to call the referendum which based on your answer (in my opinion) contradicts the rule below because the PA card isn't played for the political action itself which is what is used to call the referendum..
> Rulebook:
> A political action is an action that is used to call a referendum.
>
If it isn´t a contradiction could you please explain why not?
Furthermore found these two rulings saying that the referendum is Charming Lobby´s effect and that the Charming Lobby action calls the referendum on a PA card in your hand.
Are you reversing the above 2 rulings? Or am I misunderstanding and they and your ruling can coexist?
About Delaying Tactics:
Its text was changed from
>
> The controller of the acting vampire takes the political action card (if any) back into his or her hand (and discards down to his or her hand size), and his or her vampires cannot attempt the same political action this turn.
>
which didn´t require the PA card to be played to call the referendum
to
> If a political action card was played to call this referendum, return it to its owner's hand (discard down afterward).
>
which (in my opinion) now only enables a PA card played to call the referendum (i.e. only a PA card played normally) to be returned to its owner's hand
There is an inconsistency in that Delaying Tactics enables the return of a card that wasn´t played in a normal fashion when referring to a "played" card while at the same time having a ruling on Epikasta that says she isn´t allowed to return cards played in a non-normal fashion, where the ruling also clarifies it is applicable to the PA card played with Charming Lobby.
Delaying Tactics
Cardtype: Reaction
Cost: 1 blood
Only usable during the polling step of a political action.
Cancel the referendum. Unlock the acting vampire. If a political action card was played to call this referendum, return it to its owner's hand (discard down afterward). Minions controlled by the acting Methuselah cannot perform the same political action again this turn.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > 4) Is Kine Resources Contested "used to call the referendum" and therefore provides the 1 vote from it?
> >
> Yes.
>
This should fall in under the same as above, used to call a referendum required the PA card to be used for taking the political action which it isn´t, Charming Lobby is the political action being taken that is used to call a referendum and per the rule, it shouldn't provide the vote in that case.
Here is a ruling to draw a parallel in that as the PA card doesn´t provide the inherent +1 stealth of the card to the action making the Charming Lobby action with a PA card still only be at +1 stealth total. If the stealth of the PA card isn't gained why would the vote be?
Another similar case where the vote isn´t gained is when playing Bujo where the only difference is that the PA card is in the ash heap and card text doesn´t explicitly say "(play the card)" but at the same time requirements of that political action must be met as if it was played.
Bujo
Cardtype: Action
Clan: Ravnos
+1 stealth political action.
Choose a political action card in another Methuselah's ash heap, and call the referendum listed on the chosen card (this Ravnos must meet the requirements of that political action, if any) and remove the chosen card from the game. This vampire gets +3 votes in this referendum.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > 5) Is Charming Lobby a political action card or is it an action card enabling a political action?
> >
> The latter.
> "political action cards" are identified with the political action icon.
> The same way that Anonymous Freight is not an "equipment card" even though it is an "equip action".
> There may be a confusion since "political action" appears both in the cardtype ("political action card"), and in the type of the action ("political action").
> "Equipment card / equip action" are easier to distinguish, but the analogy is the same.
>
> groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/9HtmVwBkGdE/m/YHEVLeB7Lj4J
> groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Zl0GyvDtnZM/m/PfM2Xwv6r4oJ
> groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Zl0GyvDtnZM/m/u8MNrvEQzgkJ
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > 6) If Charming Lobby is canceled as played (e.g. Direct Intervention) is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?
> >
> No. The CL has not resolved successfully, so the KRC was not played (see also DI vs Concealed Weapon).
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > 7) If Charming Lobby is blocked is Kine Resources Contested put in the ash heap?
> >
> No. Same reason.
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > 8) Does requirements and costs need to be met of the political action card in hand or the effect in play to be useable/playable by Charming Lobby?
> >
> Yes. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/x_u1Qtiguzg/m/FZjjjIQu-FoJ
>
Thx for the clarifications above.
> Yomyael wrote:
> Could you please elaborate on the first statement you made:
>
> > Charming Lobby is played when the action is announced. KRC is played when CL reaches successful resolution (per CL's cardtext).
> >
> does this mean that one does not announce which political action to take before blocks are declined? Can I change my mind if I draw another political action card during the action?
>
One has to announce the referendum that Charming Lobby is going to call.
You cannot change your mind once the action is fully announced.
The proper way to play Charming Lobby is to play the card, announce its effect and the intended referendum (if not from an effect in play you must have the PA card in hand before the replacement of Charming Lobby is drawn) without revealing it if it is a PA card in hand until and only if the action reaches resolution unblocked which is when you then need to "(play that card)" directly to the ash heap (different to the handling when the PA card is used to call the referendum which then instead goes into limbo until after action resolution which is when it goes to the ash heap.
[LSJ 20101209] ignore the incorrect comment about discarding the PA card if the action is blocked which is wrong.
[LSJ 20050324] explaining the course of a political action and also confirming that an action card that was successfully resolved is also burned and sent to the ash heap.
> inm8 wrote:
> My question though is if the PA card is actually played to call the referendum which based on your answer (in my opinion) contradicts the rule below because the PA card isn't played for the political action itself which is what is used to call the referendum..
> If it isn´t a contradiction could you please explain why not?
>
I don't see any contradiction. CL is a political action that calls a referendum listed on a PA card. The PA is played (per cardtext) as part of the resolution in order to call that referendum: for instance, if you don't have the PA card in hand anymore when CL resolves, the action fizzles. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/K9NPLoTKdPg/m/9FpwHnLL2JEJ
I don't see any issue in requiring both cards to be played in order to call the referendum.
> Rulebook:
> A political action is an action that is used to call a referendum.
>
This is true and applies to CL. However, this doesn't preclude the PA card to be used in a exotic way to call a referendum.
> inm8 wrote:
> Furthermore found these two rulings saying that the referendum is Charming Lobby´s effect and that the Charming Lobby action calls the referendum on a PA card in your hand.
>
> Are you reversing the above 2 rulings? Or am I misunderstanding and they and your ruling can coexist?
>
The rulings are valid and are not contradictory with what is said above.
> inm8 wrote:
> About Delaying Tactics:
>
> Its text was changed from
> >
> > The controller of the acting vampire takes the political action card (if any) back into his or her hand (and discards down to his or her hand size), and his or her vampires cannot attempt the same political action this turn.
> >
> which didn´t require the PA card to be played to call the referendum
>
> to
>
> > If a political action card was played to call this referendum, return it to its owner's hand (discard down afterward).
> >
> which (in my opinion) now only enables a PA card played to call the referendum (i.e. only a PA card played normally) to be returned to its owner's hand
>
The PA card was played to call the referendum, so it is returned to its owner's hand by DT.
> inm8 wrote:
> There is an inconsistency in that Delaying Tactics enables the return of a card that wasn´t played in a normal fashion when referring to a "played" card while at the same time having a ruling on Epikasta that says she isn´t allowed to return cards played in a non-normal fashion, where the ruling also clarifies it is applicable to the PA card played with Charming Lobby.
>
DT returns the political action card used to call the referendum. This applies to KRC. CL is not a PA card and doesn't qualify.
Epikasta returns the action card she played to initiate the action, at the end of that action. It's not the same.
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > inm8 wrote:
> > > 4) Is Kine Resources Contested "used to call the referendum" and therefore provides the 1 vote from it?
> > >
> > Yes.
> >
> This should fall in under the same as above, used to call a referendum required the PA card to be used for taking the political action which it isn´t, Charming Lobby is the political action being taken that is used to call a referendum and per the rule, it shouldn't provide the vote in that case.
>
CL doesn't provide a vote since it's not a PA card. KRC provides a vote since "If a political action card was used to call the referendum, that card provides 1 vote for the acting vampire’s controller." (rulebook).
> inm8 wrote:
> Here is a ruling to draw a parallel in that as the PA card doesn´t provide the inherent +1 stealth of the card to the action making the Charming Lobby action with a PA card still only be at +1 stealth total. If the stealth of the PA card isn't gained why would the vote be?
>
Because the PA card is not used to perform the action, it is used to call a referendum.
> inm8 wrote:
> Another similar case where the vote isn´t gained is when playing Bujo where the only difference is that the PA card is in the ash heap and card text doesn´t explicitly say "(play the card)" but at the same time requirements of that political action must be met as if it was played.
>
Bujo doesn't play the card, that is the difference: groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/Tr3X4DsZr-8/m/O06iXN6LtzsJ
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thanks for your answers and for taking the time to read through the post Ankha.
My confusion comes from me making a distinction between "a card being played" vs "a card being played to X" (similar to the distinction made between "lock the minion" vs "lock the minion to X) where also X is defined to be triggered by the action itself and not a combination of cards being played which has been ruled to be the case invalidating the distinction for "played" cards.
> Ankha wrote:
> CL doesn't provide a vote since it's not a PA card.
>
Charming lobby IS a political action, since it directly states it in its own cardtext.
As I see it, I think the design intent is that CL is a political action that's referendum you can replace with another cards referendum text.
In my opinion it is charming lobby that is returned to hand, since it is a political action card that is used to call the referendum, thus satisfying all the criteria of DT. The other PA card would go to ash heap.
Note that it is NOT the PA card in hand that is used to call the referendum. Because of this I believe CL should be returned to hand, or, if for some weirdo alternate universe reason CL is not interpreted to be a political action card, then nothing is returned to hand. But under no circumstances should the referred PA card be returned to hand, since it is not the one being used to call the referendum, as DT requires.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > CL doesn't provide a vote since it's not a PA card.
> >
> Charming lobby IS a political action, since it directly states it in its own cardtext.
> As I see it, I think the design intent is that CL is a political action that's referendum you can replace with another cards referendum text.
>
See point 5 in my previous answer, and the provided links.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > 5) Is Charming Lobby a political action card or is it an action card enabling a political action?
> >
> The latter.
> "political action cards" are identified with the political action icon.
>
Card text
Golden rule.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > inm8 wrote:
> > > 5) Is Charming Lobby a political action card or is it an action card enabling a political action?
> > >
> > The latter.
> > "political action cards" are identified with the political action icon.
> >
> Card text
>
> Golden rule.
>
You still seem to not see the difference between political action card (the one with an appropriate icon) and political action - something executed from CL, political action card or, say, Black Forest Base or Dmitra ability etc. Ankha explained it in this topic quite well.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> Charming lobby IS a political action, since it directly states it in its own cardtext.
> As I see it, I think the design intent is that CL is a political action that's referendum you can replace with another cards referendum text.
>
> In my opinion it is charming lobby that is returned to hand, since it is a political action card that is used to call the referendum, thus satisfying all the criteria of DT. The other PA card would go to ash heap.
>
Don´t know if this helps knowing you are already upset with me (which wasn´t at all my intent) about this topic
There are numerous rulings saying that the cards Charming Lobby and Bujo aren´t "political action cards" but merely action cards that allow a "political action" to be taken.
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/enxwleC-ZKw/m/ppLrzdqH1ooJ
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/9HtmVwBkGdE/m/YHEVLeB7Lj4J
groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/fDl3t2lJ3Pc/m/pdmWZOwllPMJ
Action cards are any cards with the icon i.e , , , etc.
where recruit action cards only are the ones with these icons
and political action cards are only the ones with these icos
Here is a link explaining that when there is a card type defined (and an icon) the text doesn´t overrule that (the icon being on the card just as the text).
I do agree that there is some inconsistency in the definition of card types that are not covered by the rules e.g. Drawing Out the Beast is a combat card but also considered a Frenzy card which isn't a defined type but referenced a lot by other cards.
> Bloodartist wrote:
> Note that it is NOT the PA card in hand that is used to call the referendum.
>
> But under no circumstances should the referred PA card be returned to hand, since it is not the one being used to call the referendum, as DT requires.
>
Fully agree with you here, Delaying Tactics literally looks for "if a political action card was played to call this referendum".
LSJ makes it quite clear that it is the action (i.e. Charming Lobby) that calls the referendum which by extension can only mean that it is only Charming Lobby that is played to call this referendum....he makes no attempt to say that it is the combined effort of Charming Lobby + the PA card.
That the Charming Lobby action would fizzle if the PA card in hand wasn´t available to be played at the time of action resolution is no different from not having a valid target or enough blood at the time of resolving an action which is a matter of meeting requirements, but this doesn´t make the PA card being played to call this referendum.
> [LSJ 20020308]
> > 1) I'm still not totally clear on Charming Lobby. As far as I
> > understand it, it chains two actions together (the CL + the
> > political action, which muct be in your hand when CL is
> > called).
> No. It is one action. That action calls the referendum on a PA card
> in your hand (playing the card) or as allowed by a card in play. If
> the action is blocked, the PA cards (if any) is not played.
>
> KoRneeshon wrote:
>
> You still seem to not see the difference between political action card (the one with an appropriate icon) and political action - something executed from CL, political action card or, say, Black Forest Base or Dmitra ability etc. Ankha explained it in this topic quite well.
>
The reason is that it shouldn't matter.
Last I checked, Charming lobby is a card. Are we all in agreement? It is not a flowerpot or a trombone? It is a card.
It defines itself as a political action in its cardtext (golden rule)
Therefore it is a political action card. The definitions of the rulebook are overridden by cardtext itself. Which is the golden rule. The one rule that should always hold true, except Ankha has ignored it probably as many times as he has utilized it.
Smoking craters tell no tales.
—Tex talks Battletech
> Bloodartist wrote:
>
> > KoRneeshon wrote:
> >
> > You still seem to not see the difference between political action card (the one with an appropriate icon) and political action - something executed from CL, political action card or, say, Black Forest Base or Dmitra ability etc. Ankha explained it in this topic quite well.
> >
> The reason is that it shouldn't matter.
>
> Last I checked, Charming lobby is a card. Are we all in agreement? It is not a flowerpot or a trombone? It is a card.
>
> It defines itself as a political action in its cardtext (golden rule)
>
> Therefore it is a political action card. The definitions of the rulebook are overridden by cardtext itself. Which is the golden rule. The one rule that should always hold true, except Ankha has ignored it probably as many times as he has utilized it.
>
The Golden Rule of cards doesn't state that you mash words together and draw conclusions.
The Baron is not a baron for instance.
Also, I don't know why you state I'm ignoring that rule, do you have any ground for that or is it just a random attack?
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director