This came up in the discord and would be good to get rulings for it.
If Lorenzo Detuono "at the end of combat" moves a non-ready opposing minion onto his controller's ready region with his special and in the mentioned combat Imposing Phantasm was played by him, does the minion that was moved (stolen/saved by Lorenzo) get blood/life "After combat ends,.." from the Imposing Phantasm?
Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window? If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?
Does the state of being the "opposing minion" get lost when the minion changes controller to the same as the other combatant?
Lorenzo Detuono
Cardtype: Vampire
Clan: Giovanni
Group: 5
Capacity: 9
Discipline: aus dem DOM NEC POT
Independent: If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion would not, instead Lorenzo can burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region, with 1 life for an ally with no life. Red List.
Imposing Phantasm
Cardtype: Combat
Cost: 1 blood
Discipline: Chimerstry
Only usable before range is determined. A vampire can play only one Imposing Phantasm each combat.
This vampire gets +1 strength this combat. After combat ends, if the opposing minion is ready, the opposing minion gains blood or life equal to the amount they lost to damage this combat.
As above, with 1 additional strike (limited) this round.
> Khaan wrote:
> It's Lorenzo who gains the blood from Imposing phantasm.
>
The scenario is that Lorenzo played the Imposed Phantasm.
** I have updated the text to reflect the above.
Opposing minion is not ready, so the Imposing Phantasm does nothing. And because opposing minion is not ready Lorenzo can burn 5 blood and move it to ready region.
> Legion wrote:
> Opposing minion is not ready, so the Imposing Phantasm does nothing. And because opposing minion is not ready Lorenzo can burn 5 blood and move it to ready region.
>
If I´m not mistaken Lorenzo´s ability is a replacement effect which means that the opposing minion never stops being ready and "instead" of becoming "not-ready" (by going to torpor) or burning is moved to the ready region of Lorenzo´s controller.
"If Lorenzo is ready at the end of combat and the opposing minion would not, instead Lorenzo can burn 5 blood to move the opposing minion to your ready region, with 1 life for an ally with no life."
> inm8 wrote:
> This came up in the discord and would be good to get rulings for it.
>
> If Lorenzo Detuono "at the end of combat" moves a non-ready opposing minion onto his controller's ready region with his special and in the mentioned combat Imposing Phantasm was played by him, does the minion that was moved (stolen/saved by Lorenzo) get blood/life "After combat ends,.." from the Imposing Phantasm?
>
Yes.
> inm8 wrote:
> Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window?
>
No.
> inm8 wrote:
> If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?
>
"At the end of combat" first (still in combat), then "after combat" (no longer in combat).
> inm8 wrote:
> Does the state of being the "opposing minion" get lost when the minion changes controller to the same as the other combatant?
>
It was opposing when the card was played. (Notice that after combat, there's no more "opposing minion" neither).
As a side note, Lorenzo could play Taste of Vitae before using his special.
However, Lorenzo could not play Taste of Vitae after, because the combat ends as soon as both minions are controlled by the same Methuselah (you cannot play combat cards anymore). You still have to resolve pending effects though.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window?
> >
> No.
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?
> >
> "At the end of combat" first (still in combat), then "after combat" (no longer in combat).
>
Question on the above rulings,
Psyche!´s original wording was "at the end of a combat" and was considered to be played "after combat"/outside of combat (references in the linked rulings below),
is this to be taken as a ruling that "at the end of combat" no longer means "after combat"?
> LSJ wrote:
> Psyche! is played after combat. See the online rulings list.
>
> LSJ wrote:
> Note: superior Psyche! is played at the end of combat (so,
> technically, after combat) by card text, so can still be used after
> a strike: end combat.
>
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> >
> > > inm8 wrote:
> > > Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window?
> > >
> > No.
> >
> > > inm8 wrote:
> > > If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?
> > >
> > "At the end of combat" first (still in combat), then "after combat" (no longer in combat).
> >
> Question on the above rulings,
> Psyche!´s original wording was "at the end of a combat" and was considered to be played "after combat"/outside of combat (references in the linked rulings below),
> is this to be taken as a ruling that "at the end of combat" no longer means "after combat"?
>
> > LSJ wrote:
> > Psyche! is played after combat. See the online rulings list.
> >
> > LSJ wrote:
> > Note: superior Psyche! is played at the end of combat (so,
> > technically, after combat) by card text, so can still be used after
> > a strike: end combat.
> >
But Psyche text and rules are changes after LSJ time,and Psyche is played during end of round now
> beslin wrote:
> But Psyche text and rules are changes after LSJ time,and Psyche is played during end of round now
>
The question isn’t about Psyche! but about the ruling Ankha gave for the meaning and timing of the phrasing “at the end of combat”.
LSJ ruled that “at the end of combat” (that was used in the original text of Psyche!) meant and had its timing “after combat”/outside of combat which the below isn’t aligned with.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > Is "After combat ends" and "at the end of combat" the same time window?
> >
> No.
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> > If not which one resolves first? If yes does the player get to order the effects?
> >
> "At the end of combat" first (still in combat), then "after combat" (no longer in combat).
>
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > beslin wrote:
> > But Psyche text and rules are changes after LSJ time,and Psyche is played during end of round now
> >
> The question isn’t about Psyche! but about the ruling Ankha gave for the meaning and timing of the phrasing “at the end of combat”.
>
> LSJ ruled that “at the end of combat” (that was used in the original text of Psyche!) meant and had its timing “after combat”/outside of combat which the below isn’t aligned with.
>
"At the end of combat" and "when combat ends" were the previous wordings used by the following cards:
"when combat ends": Darkness Within Expiate Imposing Phantasm Molotov Cocktail
"at the end of combat": Blood Brother Ambush Conscripted Statue Coordinate Attacks Escaped Mental Patient Horrid Reality Illusions of the Kindred Lorenzo Detuono Psyche! Taunt the Caged Beast Trap Violet Tremain Yawp Court
This timing is a bit of a grey zone. For some cards, it's not in combat (Psyche! or Coordinate attacks), for some others it's still in combat but not after: for instance, a vampire created by Illusions of the Kindred who is burned in combat could either be burned (in combat) or removed from the game by IotK's cardtext (the player's choice). Or an Escaped Mental Patient could be saved for a fraction of second by Heaven's Gate (a combat card) before being burned again "at the end of combat".
For others, it doesn't seem to matter (gaining blood from Taunt the Cage Beast).
Finally, for some, there's probably a loophole (could Yawp Court's damage be prevented?)
So technically, "at the end of combat" and "when combat ends" are handled before "after combat" (or at worse, at the same time).
Some cards have already been changed to make the distinction between cards played in combat (Psyche! is now "if combat is about to end", which is the last stop before the combat ends for real). Others have been left with the older wording.
To make things clear, here are the correct timings:
Now "after combat ends": Blood Brother Ambush: errata Conscripted Statue: had been already errated by LSJ Darkness Within: already in print Escaped Mental Patient: errata, + reversal on the Heaven's Gate vs EMP ruling Expiate: errata Horrid Reality: errata Illusions of the Kindred: errata Imposing Phantasm: errata Lorenzo Detuono: errata Molotov Cocktail: errata Taunt the Caged Beast: errata Trap: errata Violet Tremain: errata Yawp Court: errata
Now "if combat is about to end": Coordinate Attacks: errata Psyche!: already in print
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Found another ruling from LSJ where he explicitly states the timing window of Psyche! (old wording: at the end of a combat) and Jalal Sayad (old wording: after completing combat) are the same.
> LSJ wrote:
> > just asking again here (since i did'n get answered elsewhere on this thread)
> > :
> >
> > "at the end of a combat"
> > (psyche)
> > and
> > "after completing combat"
> > (jalal sayad, akram )
> >
> > represent the same time segment?
>
> Psyche! has been ruled to be played after combat, as stated many times
> already, yes.
> After combat has the same timing as after combat, yes.
>
Ankha can you please confirm that your ruling in this thread changes the timing of "at the end of combat" and "after combat" to be two different once and overrules previous rulings.
> inm8 wrote:
> Found another ruling from LSJ where he explicitly states the timing window of Psyche! (old wording: at the end of a combat) and Jalal Sayad (old wording: after completing combat) are the same.
>
> > LSJ wrote:
> > > just asking again here (since i did'n get answered elsewhere on this thread)
> > > :
> > >
> > > "at the end of a combat"
> > > (psyche)
> > > and
> > > "after completing combat"
> > > (jalal sayad, akram )
> > >
> > > represent the same time segment?
> >
> > Psyche! has been ruled to be played after combat, as stated many times
> > already, yes.
> > After combat has the same timing as after combat, yes.
> >
> Ankha can you please confirm that your ruling in this thread changes the timing of "at the end of combat" and "after combat" to be two different once and overrules previous rulings.
>
"At the end of combat" can mean different things, for instance it can happen during combat ( EMP vs Heaven's Gate ):
So my ruling is only about Lorenzo Detuono. I'm working on the different cases, but this is still in progress.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> "At the end of combat" can mean different things, for instance it can happen during combat ( EMP vs Heaven's Gate ):
>
Not sure but the linked ruling seems to be incorrect, it doesnt point to anything related to Heaven´s Gate but about EMP vs Left for Dead where again "at end of combat" on the text of EMP is ruled to happen after combat and thereby cannot be saved by Left for Dead.
> >> But since the Patient should be killed by damage before his ability
> >> kicks in (since he is using a hand strike, the opposing minion's
> >> probable hand strike for 1 will kill him), Left for Dead will save him
> >> from the damage-death, but leave him ready to still trigger his
> >> special-ability-death.
> >>
> >> Of course, if he somehow manages to use his ability and not get killed
> >> during the combat (ie, Memories of Mortality), LfD will indeed save him.
> >>
> >> Right?
> >>
> > I think this should follow the same precedent as the Blood Brother Ambush
> > ruling (that is, LfD cannot possibly save them if they use their ability).
> Good point.
> I was thinking that the EMP's effect was just "during strike resolution".
> But, yes, it is "at the end of combat".
>
> So you could play LfD.
> But then LfD would end combat (card text), and the EMP would be burned (card text).
>
I think the ruling you are referring to is the below which states Heaven´s Gate cannot save the EMP as per the linked ruling which points to the above ruling...making it the same conclusion that "at the end of combat" happens after combat.
> > Just a quick query about the interaction of two cards that I can't
> > find a specific resolution to.
> >
> > If an Escaped Mental Patient uses its special text to strike with
> > aggravated damage during combat can it be saved from burning by
> > Heaven's Gate?
> No.
>
> groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a3fb69badc08dbdf
>
When LSJ then continues in the same thread stating one can play multiple Heaven´s Gate and at the end EMP burns to its own card text doesn´t make logical sense (probably he didnt check the text of Heaven´s Gate)
> > I can't save EMP if it strike aggro and takes damage and is burned
> > during strike resolution , cause if i play Heaven Gate, combat ends
> > and EMP is burned due to his card text? And I can't play second Heaven
> > Gate to prevent it?
>
> You could play a second Heaven's Gate. But then the EMP would still burn when
> combat ends. And a third and a fourth. Eventually when you stop playing Heaven's
> Gates, the EMP burns.
>
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > > Just a quick query about the interaction of two cards that I can't
> > > find a specific resolution to.
> > >
> > > If an Escaped Mental Patient uses its special text to strike with
> > > aggravated damage during combat can it be saved from burning by
> > > Heaven's Gate?
> > No.
> >
> > groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a3fb69badc08dbdf
> >
> When LSJ then continues in the same thread stating one can play multiple Heaven´s Gate and at the end EMP burns to its own card text doesn´t make logical sense (probably he didnt check the text of Heaven´s Gate)
>
> > > I can't save EMP if it strike aggro and takes damage and is burned
> > > during strike resolution , cause if i play Heaven Gate, combat ends
> > > and EMP is burned due to his card text? And I can't play second Heaven
> > > Gate to prevent it?
> >
> > You could play a second Heaven's Gate. But then the EMP would still burn when
> > combat ends. And a third and a fourth. Eventually when you stop playing Heaven's
> > Gates, the EMP burns.
> >
No, LSJ changed his mind because :
> Good point.
> I was thinking that the EMP's effect was just "during strike resolution".
> But, yes, it is "at the end of combat".
>
> So you could play LfD.
> But then LfD would end combat (card text), and the EMP would be burned (card text).
>
Heaven's Gate is still a combat card played during combat.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> >
> > > > Just a quick query about the interaction of two cards that I can't
> > > > find a specific resolution to.
> > > >
> > > > If an Escaped Mental Patient uses its special text to strike with
> > > > aggravated damage during combat can it be saved from burning by
> > > > Heaven's Gate?
> > > No.
> > >
> > > groups.google.com/group/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/msg/a3fb69badc08dbdf
> > >
> > >
> > When LSJ then continues in the same thread stating one can play multiple Heaven´s Gate and at the end EMP burns to its own card text doesn´t make logical sense (probably he didnt check the text of Heaven´s Gate)
> >
> > > > I can't save EMP if it strike aggro and takes damage and is burned
> > > > during strike resolution , cause if i play Heaven Gate, combat ends
> > > > and EMP is burned due to his card text? And I can't play second Heaven
> > > > Gate to prevent it?
> > >
> > > You could play a second Heaven's Gate. But then the EMP would still burn when
> > > combat ends. And a third and a fourth. Eventually when you stop playing Heaven's
> > > Gates, the EMP burns.
> > >
> > >
> >
> No, LSJ changed his mind because :
>
> > Good point.
> > I was thinking that the EMP's effect was just "during strike resolution".
> > But, yes, it is "at the end of combat".
> >
> > So you could play LfD.
> > But then LfD would end combat (card text), and the EMP would be burned (card text).
> >
> Heaven's Gate is still a combat card played during combat.
>
Apologize for my inability to understand what point you are trying to make with the above comments.
What did LSJ change his mind about?
In the thread about Left for Dead + Escaped Mental Patient from 2002 he first said that LfD could save EMP from burning to its own text because he incorrectly thought the burn text of EMP triggered "during strike resolution" which later in that thread was highlighted to be incorrect and thereby he ruled that the EMP couldn´t avoid to burn from its own text by using LfD as the burn text of EMP triggers "at the end of combat" i.e. after combat, after LfD´s timing window.
Heaven´s Gate being a combat card played during combat hasn´t been questioned so don´t understand the point you are trying to make?
Perhaps I wasn´t clear about what I considered illogical about the statement made in the thread about Heaven´s Gate + Escaped Mental Patient from 2007 that multiple HGs can be played.
I meant to point out that I think that only one HG can be played because the text at the time was "Only usable when an ally is burned in combat." which would mean that after the first HG is played to save the EMP from burning to combat damage it would no longer be burning and therefore a second HG cannot be played and when EMP burns because of its own text that happens at the end of combat i.e. after combat as ruled already back in 2002 for the LfD + EMP meaning HG cannot be played as it has to be played "in combat".
Both LfD and HG are only playable during/in combat which "at the end of combat" isn´t and has various rulings saying it is after combat i.e. is not "during combat" nor "in combat".
If "at the end of combat" was considered to be "in combat" one would be able to save an ally with LfD or HG which has been ruled to not be possible.