Shadow Court Satyr ruling reversal?

Does the below ruling still stand as the card text of Satyr has changed since given? Seems a reversal is in order. groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/EksUAQcZeS8/m/uZRZ-a29rJcJ

It hasn't changed in any way that makes that ruling incorrect.

LSJ stated that it was the “during combat” part of the text that implicitly meant Satyr has to be in the combat to use the ability….now card text has changed and no longer has the word “during” in it and nothing in its current wording indicates that it has to be in the combat to be able to use the ability, as long as the combat card on Satyr is allowed to be used when not being the one in combat e.g. Heaven’s Gate should be ok to use the ability. Card text at the time of the ruling, highlight in bold by me. (haven´t been able to find a card with this actual wording, I assume it was errata at some point but not printed) > Shadow Court Satyr (Changeling) > Changeling with 3 life. 1 strength, 1 bleed. > When Shadow Court Satyr comes into play, you may > put a combat card from your hand on him. Once during > combat, Satyr may use the ability of that card as if that > card had been played from your hand. If the card has a > cost, he pays its cost in life to use its ability. If the card > requires a Discipline, he may only use the basic ability > of that card as a vampire with a capacity of 1. If the > ability would give him blood, give him life instead. > > LSJ wrote: > No. He has to be in combat. That's the "during combat" part. > Shadow Court Satyr AKA: Shadow Court Satyr (Changeling) Cardtype: Ally Clan: Gangrel antitribu Cost: 3 pool Changeling with 3 life. 1 strength, 1 bleed. When the Satyr enters play, you {can} put a combat card from your hand on him. Once each combat, the Satyr {can} use the ability of that card as if played from your hand. If the card requires a vampire (e.g., costs blood or requires a Discipline), he {can} use it as a vampire with the basic level of {1 of} the Discipline{(s)} (if any). Heaven's Gate Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Obeah/Necromancy Only usable by a ready unlocked vampire not involved in the combat. Prevent 1 damage to an ally in combat. Only usable if an ally would be burned in combat. Instead, add 1 life to that ally if they have no life, and they cannot enter (or be involved in) combat, perform actions, or block this turn; end combat. As above, but add 2 life if they have no life, not to exceed their starting life

> kschaefer wrote: > It hasn't changed in any way that makes that ruling incorrect. > Correct. The ruling stands. See Don Caravelli for an example of ability usable during a combat involving other minions. Name: Don Caravelli [KoT:V/A1] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Brujah Group: 5 Capacity: 8 Discipline: aus dom CEL POT PRE Camarilla: Once each combat involving another vampire you control, Don Caravelli can burn 1 blood to give that vampire 1 press. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > kschaefer wrote: > > It hasn't changed in any way that makes that ruling incorrect. > > > Correct. The ruling stands. > > See Don Caravelli for an example of ability usable during a combat involving other minions. > > Name: Don Caravelli > [KoT:V/A1] > Cardtype: Vampire > Clan: Brujah > Group: 5 > Capacity: 8 > Discipline: aus dom CEL POT PRE > Camarilla: Once each combat involving another vampire you control, Don Caravelli can burn 1 blood to give that vampire 1 press. > I don´t understand the point... Don Caravelli´s ability is limited to being used on another vampire you control and cannot be used in a combat that Don Caravelli is in. The current wording of Satyr "Once each combat" encompasses all combats which means the ability can be used for any combat as long as the combat card is playable and as it isn´t worded excluding the combat Satyr could be in it would also work for a combat that Satyr is in. The old wordings "During combat" and "Once during combat" implicitly requires Satyr to be in the combat for the ability to work. As far as I understand abilities can be used whenever appropriate per the text which to me for Satyr has changed, regardless if the limitation removal was intentional or not. If I'm wrong in my understanding of the English text of Satyr or if there is another reason then please explain how/why "Once each combat..." means only the combat that Satyr is in.

> inm8 wrote: > The current wording of Satyr "Once each combat" encompasses all combats which means the ability can be used for any combat as long as the combat card is playable and as it isn´t worded excluding the combat Satyr could be in it would also work for a combat that Satyr is in. > You cannot do what you cannot do. By default you cannot play combat cards in a combat that you're not involved in. Heaven's Gate provides text to the contrary for vampires. However, Satyrs can use cards as a vampire `once each combat` still restricts it to combats that the Satyr is involved in, in the same way that Prejudice's special can only be used when he's bleeding. 'Once each X' is by default an X that the minion is involved in. You need explicit text to override. So even though Heaven's Gate allows you to do what you cannot normally do, Satyr's timing when when it is able to play cards as a vampire still prevents you from using it.

> kschaefer wrote: > However, Satyrs can use cards as a vampire `once each combat` still restricts it to combats that the Satyr is involved in, in the same way that Prejudice's special can only be used when he's bleeding. > The Prejudice comparison seems wrong to me because the wording “Prejudice may remove … to get +2 bleed for the current action.” is what makes it only applicable to its own bleed. > kschaefer wrote: > 'Once each X' is by default an X that the minion is involved in. > As this isn’t in the rulebook do you have a ruling for this assumption? If the above is correct I understand and thank you for bringing this to light. Per the above logic Okulos “Once each turn, Okulos can burn 1 blood to draw 1 card (discard down afterward).” would only be able to draw a card on his own turn which isn’t the case.

> inm8 wrote: > > > kschaefer wrote: > > However, Satyrs can use cards as a vampire `once each combat` still restricts it to combats that the Satyr is involved in, in the same way that Prejudice's special can only be used when he's bleeding. > > > The Prejudice comparison seems wrong to me because the wording “Prejudice may remove … to get +2 bleed for the current action.” is what makes it only applicable to its own bleed. > "Once each action, Prejudice may remove an ally or retainer in your prey's ash heap from the game to get +2 bleed for the current action." By your logic about the way Satyrs work we could assume that he can do it on any actions, but we know you can only gain bleed if you are bleeding, so it's limited to his bleed. I don't see how "Once each action" (which you failed to quote) and "Once each combat" should have parallel differences. You can use one to help understand the other. The best way to parse the complex rules of VTES is analogically. > inm8 wrote: > > > kschaefer wrote: > > 'Once each X' is by default an X that the minion is involved in. > > > As this isn’t in the rulebook do you have a ruling for this assumption? > Nope. Not going to parse the newsgroup for it. If we need some extra clarity there, Ankha can give it. > inm8 wrote: > Per the above logic Okulos “Once each turn, Okulos can burn 1 blood to draw 1 card (discard down afterward).” would only be able to draw a card on his own turn which isn’t the case. > Okulos is involved in every turn that he's in play on the table. He always has the option to do things even when it's not your turn.

> kschaefer wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > The current wording of Satyr "Once each combat" encompasses all combats which means the ability can be used for any combat as long as the combat card is playable and as it isn´t worded excluding the combat Satyr could be in it would also work for a combat that Satyr is in. > > > You cannot do what you cannot do. By default you cannot play combat cards in a combat that you're not involved in. Heaven's Gate provides text to the contrary for vampires. > > However, Satyrs can use cards as a vampire `once each combat` still restricts it to combats that the Satyr is involved in, in the same way that Prejudice's special can only be used when he's bleeding. 'Once each X' is by default an X that the minion is involved in. You need explicit text to override. > > So even though Heaven's Gate allows you to do what you cannot normally do, Satyr's timing when when it is able to play cards as a vampire still prevents you from using it. > Correct. "In combat", "During combat", "Once each combat"... all imply that the minion is involved in combat. The Satyr can play the combat card only when he's involved in combat. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> kschaefer wrote: > "Once each action, Prejudice may remove an ally or retainer in your prey's ash heap from the game to get +2 bleed for the current action." By your logic about the way Satyrs work we could assume that he can do it on any actions, but we know you can only gain bleed if you are bleeding, so it's limited to his bleed. > By my logic "Once each action" isn´t read in isolation. Per my logic in the case of Prejudice because of the complete text of the card, the rules about when bleed boost can be played and whoms bleed the ability can boost it can´t be used more than once for Prejudice own bleed action. This portion "Once each action" allows Prejudice to use the ability more than once as long as the bleed action didn´t reach resolution and therefore doesn't count towards NRA. > kschaefer wrote: > I don't see how "Once each action" (which you failed to quote) and "Once each combat" should have parallel differences. You can use one to help understand the other. The best way to parse the complex rules of VTES is analogically. > I didn´t "fail" to quote anything. I intentionally left "Once each action" out as the point was about why it is only usable on Prejudice's own bleed action which is in my opinion not because of the mentioned "'Once each X' is by default an X that the minion is involved in." limitation but because of the mentioned "do x to y" wording of the ability. For me, "Once each X" isn´t the only relevant part, I think all of the card text is relevant to determine its function. > kschaefer wrote: > Nope. Not going to parse the newsgroup for it. If we need some extra clarity there, Ankha can give it. > Fine that you don´t have a ruling nor want to look for one. Ankha, as you said can give one or overrule a previous one. Just out of curiosity, is the argument/rationale based on a ruling you have seen, or is it an assumption on how you believe it to function? > kschaefer wrote: > Okulos is involved in every turn that he's in play on the table. He always has the option to do things even when it's not your turn. > The involvement is limited and enabled by the rules and the card text that overrule the rules. The point was about your statement that explicit text is required to allow the ability to be used on someone else's combat, action, or turn. "Once each turn" is the explicit text that allows it in the case of Okulos "Once each combat" is what I´m saying allows it in the case of Satyr. Both the above explicitly mean every turn and combat respectively because there is no other text on the cards that limits/restrict their reach. Satyr´s text used to limit the reach of the ability to combats that Satyr was involved in when the text was "Once during combat" which is no longer the case. "Once each turn" has been ruled to mean every turn and not just one's own. Similarly one can assume that "Once each combat" means every combat and not just one's own. To be clear I'm saying that Satyr can only do something on another combat if the combat card on him allows it, e.g. Heaven´s Gate. Because Satyr´s own ability even though it is usable on all combats it doesn´t provide the overruling of having to be one of the combatants to be able to play combat cards.

> Ankha wrote: > Correct. > "In combat", "During combat", "Once each combat"... all imply that the minion is involved in combat. > The Satyr can play the combat card only when he's involved in combat. > "Once each combat" per the English language doesn´t imply that the minion has to be involved. "Once each X" per the English language doesn´t imply involvement To me, this is "vtes English" being created which is fine by me and should be added to the rulebook. Please be explicit about it here so we have a rulings refrence Please also clarify involvement....a minion in play is involved in what exactly?

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Correct. > > "In combat", "During combat", "Once each combat"... all imply that the minion is involved in combat. > > The Satyr can play the combat card only when he's involved in combat. > > > Please be explicit about it here so we have a rulings refrence > That's exactly what I did. > inm8 wrote: > Please also clarify involvement....a minion in play is involved in what exactly? > I wrote "involved in combat", so what is unclear? Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > Correct. > > > "In combat", "During combat", "Once each combat"... all imply that the minion is involved in combat. > > > The Satyr can play the combat card only when he's involved in combat. > > > > > Please be explicit about it here so we have a rulings refrence > > > That's exactly what I did. > > > inm8 wrote: > > Please also clarify involvement....a minion in play is involved in what exactly? > > > I wrote "involved in combat", so what is unclear? > I want you to be explicit about; that the ruling applies to all "Once each X" (not just where X is combat) that involvement in X is required what and when exactly a minion in play is considered involved for actions, turns, combat, referendums, etc. To me, this ruling makes little sense by going against the English meaning of the text. As I have said before I´m not a native English speaker so I could be wrong but no one is explaining what in the text "Once each X" makes it imply involvement.

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > Correct. > > > > "In combat", "During combat", "Once each combat"... all imply that the minion is involved in combat. > > > > The Satyr can play the combat card only when he's involved in combat. > > > > > > > Please be explicit about it here so we have a rulings refrence > > > > > That's exactly what I did. > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Please also clarify involvement....a minion in play is involved in what exactly? > > > > > I wrote "involved in combat", so what is unclear? > > > that the ruling applies to all "Once each X" (not just where X is combat) > This ruling doesn't logically imply a broader ruling. It doesn't mean that a broader ruling couldn't be made, but we're talking about "once each combat" in this topic. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > Please also clarify involvement....a minion in play is involved in what exactly? > > > > > > > I wrote "involved in combat", so what is unclear? > > > > > that the ruling applies to all "Once each X" (not just where X is combat) > > > This ruling doesn't logically imply a broader ruling. It doesn't mean that a broader ruling couldn't be made, but we're talking about "once each combat" in this topic. > Fine, limiting it to "Once each combat" > Ankha wrote: > "In combat", "During combat", "Once each combat"... all imply that the minion is involved in combat. > What is it that makes "Once each combat" imply that the minion is or has to be involved in the combat? I want to understand why you say it implies involvement because at the moment it seems it is not based on existing rules, previous rulings, or the English meaning of the text.

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > > Please also clarify involvement....a minion in play is involved in what exactly? > > > > > > > > > I wrote "involved in combat", so what is unclear? > > > > > > > that the ruling applies to all "Once each X" (not just where X is combat) > > > > > This ruling doesn't logically imply a broader ruling. It doesn't mean that a broader ruling couldn't be made, but we're talking about "once each combat" in this topic. > > > Fine, limiting it to "Once each combat" > > > Ankha wrote: > > "In combat", "During combat", "Once each combat"... all imply that the minion is involved in combat. > > > What is it that makes "Once each combat" imply that the minion is or has to be involved in the combat? > > I want to understand why you say it implies involvement because at the moment it seems it is not based on existing rules, previous rulings, or the English meaning of the text. > Quick answer: LSJ's ruling is not about "during" but "He has to be in combat." Also, "during combat" and "once each combat" are equivalent. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > Quick answer: LSJ's ruling is not about "during" but "He has to be in combat." > You are wrong here. LSJ usually motivates his answer which is what that is LSJ literally says that it's the "during combat" part...how you interpret that as something different I don´t understand. One can´t ignore the context of the question from the context of the answer? > LSJ wrote: > > Now SCS says "... once during combat, Satyr may use the ability of that > > card ..." but does not say it has to be a combat he is involved in, so > > I can use Heaven's Gate if the SCS is ready, untapped and not involved > > in the combat (requirements of Heaven's Gate) to save a different ally, > > correct? > > No. He has to be in combat. That's the "during combat" part. > > Ankha wrote: > Also, "during combat" and "once each combat" are equivalent. > Language-wise; "During combat" (which was the original wording) is equivalent to "Once during combat" (which was the wording ruled on by LSJ) that they imply involvement in the combat. "Once each combat" does NOT imply involvement and is NOT equivalent to the above two. If I go to a fight club and it says "Once each combat, you can have a free beer" does that mean I only get the beer if I'm in the fight? "during" is a very important word in the sentence for its range and meaning which is not being recognized for some odd reason. If you look through all the cards that use the wording "once each combat" you will notice that they all except for (Satyr and Fatima) have additional text which makes them imply/require involvement in the combat LSJ´s ruling was 100% correct language-wise as per the text at the time. This ruling is not correct language-wise and is therefore becoming a definition of that "Once each combat" implies involvement because of your ruling and not the written word and as such should be described in the rules. Seems that it would be better to errata the text so that it means what you want it to (adding "during") rather than making the text mean something it doesn't.

Read the whole discussion about "during" vs "once each" there: groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/wZIqD6ZA9ms/m/x6wsAZ5wrtEJ Maybe you'll get a clue about what I mean when I say they are equivalent. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I have now read the entire thread (again, had read it in the past) and I would say that if anything it makes it clear that “During” and “Once each” are NOT equivalents. Furthermore, the thread is about “During X, do Y” and that Y is limited to once per X which people were trying to argue that “Once during each X, do Y” would be clearer. Nowhere does the thread go into that “Once each” implies involvement is required. If there is a specific portion that you think enforces and explains your point please quote it here.

> inm8 wrote: > I have now read the entire thread (again, had read it in the past) and I would say that if anything it makes it clear that “During” and “Once each” are NOT equivalents. > > Furthermore, the thread is about “During X, do Y” and that Y is limited to once per X which people were trying to argue that “Once during each X, do Y” would be clearer. > > Nowhere does the thread go into that “Once each” implies involvement is required. > > If there is a specific portion that you think enforces and explains your point please quote it here. > This is quite easy to solve, the Text of Fatima Name: Fatima al-Faqadi [Promo-20010428, FN:PA, POD:DTC] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Banu Haqim Group: 2 Capacity: 8 Discipline: aus for CEL OBF QUI Independent: Once each combat, before range is determined, Fatima can equip with a weapon from your hand (requirements and cost apply as normal). Blood cursed. Artist: John Van Fleet of the past and present matches the *current* text of shadow court satyr. Aka the "once each combat, do x". Question therefore is, can Fatima equip with a weapon from hand if they're not involved in combat? If they can, then the current wording for the Shadow Court Satyr enables to use the effect "as if from hand" during combats they're not involved in. After all, that's the same trigger. If they cannot, then SCS cannot behave like a vampire and play a combat card. And for good measure, let's throw White Lily in as well, Name: White Lily [Promo-20060710, Third:PM] Cardtype: Vampire Clan: Malkavian antitribu Group: 4 Capacity: 8 Discipline: cel dom for DEM OBF Sabbat. Black Hand: Once per combat, before range is determined, White Lily may equip with a weapon from your hand. (Pay cost as normal.) Artist: Lawrence Snelly so we do not need to argue whether or not "Once each combat" and " Once per combat" work differently. Trust in Jan Pieterzoon.

I'm not after changing the functions of cards. I want the card text to be able to speak for itself only supported by the rules. If they aren´t supposed to be able to do it during any combat I think the appropriate action is to errata their text to reflect that and not to make up a new term/template where "Once each combat" and "Once per combat" implies involvement (especially as others similar e.g "Once each action" and "Once each turn" means all actions and turns respectively).