Blade of Enoch user playing Dam the Heart's River

> Blade of Enoch > Unique melee weapon. > Strike: strength+1 damage, only usable by a vampire with capacity above 5. Damage inflicted by this weapon on a Brujah or Brujah antitribu is aggravated. This vampire with capacity above 5 is immune to the effects of Frenzy cards. > > Dam the Heart's River > Frenzy. Only usable before range is determined. A vampire can play only one Dam the Heart's River each combat. > qui This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage. > QUI As above, and this combat, strikes cost the opposing minion 1 additional blood or life, and they can choose not to strike. > Is it allowed for a vampire equipping Blade of Enoch to play Dam the Heart's River when in combat with an opposing minion? BoE makes its user immune to Frenzy cards but DtHR's wording sounds like that the opposing minion is the one affected by the card, not the user. Anarch Baron of Recife - Brazil VEKN: 9200002

Just to clarify, Dayvisson: Explain better the situation: Minion X is equipped with Blade of Enoch. Controller of Minion X is willing to play DtHR’s in a combat agains Minion Y. Questions: 1- Does the controller of the Minion X can play DtHRs? 1A- if yes, who is the target of the frenzy. 1B- if Yes, does the the effects of the DtHRs affect the minion Y? 2- If no, then we are supposed we cannot play cards on vampires that immune to the said effect? Thanks for a clarification.

please note the text on blade of enoch on TTS VTES mod is different from official VEKN cardlists. Cardlist text on VEKN site must always prevail. Can someone redirect this to the programmers of TTS VTES mod so this can be fixed? I am death. Paul Kersey, Death Wish

> Charles_Bronson wrote: > please note the text on blade of enoch on TTS VTES mod is different from official VEKN cardlists. > > Cardlist text on VEKN site must always prevail. > > Can someone redirect this to the programmers of TTS VTES mod so this can be fixed? > BCP are not the ones that maintain TTS, try to reach out to the responsible for the TTS mod

> donhawk wrote: > Is it allowed for a vampire equipping Blade of Enoch to play Dam the Heart's River when in combat with an opposing minion? > Yes, it is allowed for a minion equipped with Blade of Enoch to play Dam the Heart's River. Cards/effects can be played on minions regardless of if they are immune or not, if they are immune it would be played uselessly, since the target is immune to it. [LSJ 20070707] > donhawk wrote: > BoE makes its user immune to Frenzy cards but DtHR's wording sounds like that the opposing minion is the one affected by the card, not the user. > If I'm not mistaken Dam the Heart's River targets the minion that played the card when played at inferior (makes its strike do +damage) and both minions when played at superior. Ankha please confirm Blade of Enoch Cardtype: Equipment Cost: 1 pool Unique melee weapon. Strike: strength+1 damage, only usable by a vampire with capacity above 5. Damage inflicted by this weapon on a Brujah or Brujah antitribu is aggravated. This vampire with capacity above 5 is immune to the effects of Frenzy cards. Dam the Heart's River Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Quietus Frenzy. Only usable before range is determined. A vampire can play only one Dam the Heart's River each combat. This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage. As above, and this combat, strikes cost the opposing minion 1 additional blood or life, and they can choose not to strike.

> donhawk wrote: > Is it allowed for a vampire equipping Blade of Enoch to play Dam the Heart's River when in combat with an opposing minion? > Yes, Dam the Heart's River targets the opposing minion. > donhawk wrote: > BoE makes its user immune to Frenzy cards but DtHR's wording sounds like that the opposing minion is the one affected by the card, not the user. > Correct. > elzotb wrote: > Minion X is equipped with Blade of Enoch. > Controller of Minion X is willing to play DtHR’s in a combat agains Minion Y. > > Questions: > > 1- Does the controller of the Minion X can play DtHRs? > 1A- if yes, who is the target of the frenzy. > 1B- if Yes, does the the effects of the DtHRs affect the minion Y? > > 2- If no, then we are supposed we cannot play cards on vampires that immune to the said effect? > 1. 1a: the opposing minion 1b: yes Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > donhawk wrote: > > Is it allowed for a vampire equipping Blade of Enoch to play Dam the Heart's River when in combat with an opposing minion? > > > Yes, Dam the Heart's River targets the opposing minion. > > > elzotb wrote: > > Minion X is equipped with Blade of Enoch. > > Controller of Minion X is willing to play DtHR’s in a combat agains Minion Y. > > > > Questions: > > > > 1- Does the controller of the Minion X can play DtHRs? > > 1A- if yes, who is the target of the frenzy. > > 1B- if Yes, does the the effects of the DtHRs affect the minion Y? > > > > 2- If no, then we are supposed we cannot play cards on vampires that immune to the said effect? > > > 1. > 1a: the opposing minion > How does the text of inferior DtHR make the opposing minion the frenzied minion??? The text says "each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage." meaning that what is being boosted is strikes or damaging effects which are made/triggered by the minion that played DtHR. Similar wording is found on Increased Strength and it isn´t considered as targeting the opponent. The difference in text between DtHR and IS - "made against the opposing minion" vs "that require Potence made by this vampire", where both are conditional portions of the text. If DtHR would have been worded like Target Vitals (relevant text below) it would make more sense that the frenzy is imposed on the opponent, weakening him to have to handle more damage, but that isn't the case. > If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike, > Frenzy = a state or period of uncontrolled excitement or wild behavior. I don't see how inferior DtHR would be applicable to the opposing minion when it is the minion that played it that inflicts more damage, makes more sense that the temporary wild uncontrolled behavior enables the striking minion to do more damage. Other similar card is Devil-Channel: Hands which has been ruled in [LSJ 20051113] to be targeting the minion that plays it and not the opponent. > LSJ wrote: > D-C: Hands does not affect the opposing minion. > Inferior DtHR affects the damage amount "to be" done by strikes and damaging effects, not the opposing minion when played. And later in the same ruling, LSJ provides the definition of how to determine who is frenzied which I don´t think DtHR fits into > LSJ wrote: > If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when > played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text > specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit > card text. > Target Vitals Cardtype: Combat Aim. Only usable as this minion chooses a strike. A minion can play only one aim each strike. If any damage from this strike is successfully inflicted on the opposing minion, they take +2 damage from this strike, and they cannot press this round. They can discard two combat cards to cancel this card as it is played. Increased Strength Cardtype: Combat Discipline: Potence Only usable before range is determined. For the remainder of combat, all damaging strikes that require Potence made by this vampire inflict +1 damage. As above, but those strikes inflict +2 damage. Devil-Channel: Hands Cardtype: Combat Cost: 1 blood Discipline: Abombwe [REFLEX] Cancel a frenzy card played on this vampire as it is played. Frenzy. Play before range is determined. For the remainder of the combat, this vampire's hand damage is aggravated. As above, with an optional press this round.

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > donhawk wrote: > > > Is it allowed for a vampire equipping Blade of Enoch to play Dam the Heart's River when in combat with an opposing minion? > > > > > Yes, Dam the Heart's River targets the opposing minion. > > > How does the text of inferior DtHR make the opposing minion the frenzied minion??? > This: > LSJ wrote: > If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when > played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text > specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit > card text. > which perfectly defines the target of Dam: "This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage." It doesn't say "This vampire inflicts..." not explicitly says "Frenzy, played on this vampire." which would make the vampire who plays Dam the target of the frenzy. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > This: > > > LSJ wrote: > > If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when > > played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text > > specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit > > card text. > > > which perfectly defines the target of Dam: "This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage." > I don´t agree with your interpretation above of the text. As per your own statement here DtHR "gives +1 damage to the strike." i.e. the target is the strike which in turn is made by the minion playing DtHR. Break down of the text: "This combat," = duration of the effect "each strike or damaging effect" = target of the effect "made against the opposing minion" = condition/limitation on when/what the effect is applicable i.e. only applys to the strikes and/or damaging effects that are made against the opposing minion.... this is not to be mistaken for being the target of the effect "inflicts +1 damage." = actual effect on the target, which in this case is a +1 boost to strikes and/or damaging effects made (by the minion that played DtHR) against the opposing minion > Ankha wrote: > It doesn't say "This vampire inflicts..." not explicitly says "Frenzy, played on this vampire." which would make the vampire who plays Dam the target of the frenzy. > The above are wordings for it to be explicitly saying that it is targeting the minion that played DtHR, which the text of DtHR doesn´t....this doesn´t make it mean that the targets/selects/chooses/affects the opposing minion. There is also no explicit text saying it is played on the opposing minion as insinuated by you above by highlighting the text "the opposing minion" in bold. The only logical conclusion in my opinion is that as the only valid target for inferior DtHR is the strikes and damaging effects done by the minion/player that played DtHR it by extension means that it is that minion that is the target of the frenzy.

> inm8 wrote: > "each strike or damaging effect" = target of the effect > Tell me how do I frenzy environmental damage? The opposing minion takes more damage from environmental damage, but how can the damage be the target of the frenzy?

> kschaefer wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > "each strike or damaging effect" = target of the effect > > > Tell me how do I frenzy environmental damage? > I have no idea, you tell me. I never stated that it was the damage itself, strikes, or damaging effects that get frenzied. > kschaefer wrote: > The opposing minion takes more damage from environmental damage, but how can the damage be the target of the frenzy? > I haven't said the damage is the target of the frenzy. In fact, I have said (repeatedly) that it is the minion playing inferior DtHR that is the one frenzied. > inm8 wrote: > If I'm not mistaken Dam the Heart's River targets the minion that played the card when played at inferior (makes its strike do +damage) and both minions when played at superior. > > inm8 wrote: > The text says "each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage." meaning that what is being boosted is strikes or damaging effects which are made/triggered by the minion that played DtHR. > > inm8 wrote: > As per your own statement here DtHR "gives +1 damage to the strike." i.e. the target is the strike which in turn is made by the minion playing DtHR. > > inm8 wrote: > The only logical conclusion in my opinion is that as the only valid target for inferior DtHR is the strikes and damaging effects done by the minion/player that played DtHR it by extension means that it is that minion that is the target of the frenzy. > Furthermore "frenzy" isn´t an effect but a trait on cards.

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > This: > > > > > LSJ wrote: > > > If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when > > > played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text > > > specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit > > > card text. > > > > > which perfectly defines the target of Dam: "This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage." > > > I don´t agree with your interpretation above of the text. > > As per your own statement here DtHR "gives +1 damage to the strike." i.e. the target is the strike which in turn is made by the minion playing DtHR. > Strikes or damaging effects are not minions. "The opposing minion" is a minion. I don't understand why you're trying to find another minion involved using circonvolutions. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > Strikes or damaging effects are not minions. "The opposing minion" is a minion. > I don't understand why you're trying to find another minion involved using circonvolutions. > I´m not trying to "circonvolutions" anything nor discuss it for no reason to cause trouble. I´m just stating what is written on the card, the fact that only strikes and/or damaging effects "made against the opposing minion" qualify for the boost to "inflict +1 damage" doesn´t explicitly nor literally make the opposing minion being frenzied....it is actually implicitly saying that the frenzied minion is the one striking and/or playing damaging effects because it can only be the minion that played DtHR that inflicts damage boosted by its effect Would you consider Increased Strength to be targeting the opposing minion if it didn´t have the text "made by this vampire"? Example, where it is clearly the opposing minion that is frenzied, is Drawing out the Beast where the effects are applied on the opposing minion and not on the minion playing the card.

Seconding inm8 here. The key to this ruling is understanding which of the minions is "frenzying" when dam the heart's river is played. There are examples of both types in cards "Drawing out the beast" obviously makes the opposing minion frenzy, All the effects apply to the opposing vampire. "Devil channel: hands" obviously affects only the vampire playing it, there is no mention of the other minion. So is the frenzy a condition which is applied to the opposing minion as a "weakness", or is the vampire playing the card frenzying because they are doing +1 damage? This difference is important when cards that grant immunity to frenzy are in play. Smoking craters tell no tales. —Tex talks Battletech

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > Strikes or damaging effects are not minions. "The opposing minion" is a minion. > > I don't understand why you're trying to find another minion involved using circonvolutions. > > > I´m not trying to "circonvolutions" anything nor discuss it for no reason to cause trouble. > > I´m just stating what is written on the card, the fact that only strikes and/or damaging effects "made against the opposing minion" qualify for the boost to "inflict +1 damage" doesn´t explicitly nor literally make the opposing minion being frenzied.... > It is however the only minion explictly mentionned. > inm8 wrote: > it is actually implicitly saying that the frenzied minion is the one striking and/or playing damaging effects because it can only be the minion that played DtHR that inflicts damage boosted by its effect > It's not entirely true as a Ghoul Retainer (retainer, environmental) or a Carrion Crows (environmental) would also inflict increased damage, but they can't be target of a frenzy card. And once again, if there's a minion mentionned explictly, the frenzy applies to that minion. Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> inm8 wrote: > Would you consider Increased Strength to be targeting the opposing minion if it didn´t have the text "made by this vampire"? > The opposing minion is not mentioned, the vampire playing the card is => if it were a frenzy card, it would target the vampire playing it ("All damaging strikes provided by cards requiring Potence [pot] made by this vampire inflict +1 damage this combat.") Damage would be increased even when made against a retainer on the opposing minion for instance (eg., Thrown Gate vs a retainer at long range). Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

> Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > Strikes or damaging effects are not minions. "The opposing minion" is a minion. > > > I don't understand why you're trying to find another minion involved using circonvolutions. > > > > > > > > I´m not trying to "circonvolutions" anything nor discuss it for no reason to cause trouble. > > > > I´m just stating what is written on the card, the fact that only strikes and/or damaging effects "made against the opposing minion" qualify for the boost to "inflict +1 damage" doesn´t explicitly nor literally make the opposing minion being frenzied.... > > > It is however the only minion explictly mentionned. > You seem to have a hung up on the words "opposing minion" as if that on its own is what matters...you can´t just take it out of context from the rest of the card text. Yes, the "opposing minion" words are explicitly there in the card text but not to specify on which target it is played. As per LSJs definition of who is the frenzied target, it isn´t that the words "opposing minion" exist in the card text but that "explicit card text specifies on which minion the card is played" which the text of DtHR doesn´t do....this then leads to having to use the first portion of the definition. > LSJ wrote: > If the frenzy card targets/selects/chooses/affects the minion when played, then it is being played on the minion. If explicit card text specifies on which minion the card is played, use the explicit card text. > The portion of the text "made against the opposing minion" isn´t in there to declare who is the frenzied minion but as a limitation to the part before it "each strike and damaging effect". Without the text portion "made against the opposing minion" it would mean that the effect would boost both minion's strikes and damaging effects to "inflict +1 damage". > Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > it is actually implicitly saying that the frenzied minion is the one striking and/or playing damaging effects because it can only be the minion that played DtHR that inflicts damage boosted by its effect > > > It's not entirely true as a Ghoul Retainer (retainer, environmental) or a Carrion Crows (environmental) would also inflict increased damage, but they can't be target of a frenzy card. > First, you are taking the word "inflict" out of the context that i used it in with regards to the card text of DtHR. Secondly, all words of a phrase and/or card text matter and how it is written (order, commas, etc.). Thirdly, the above is just plain wrong, none of the mentioned cards are +damage effects, but damaging effects in their own right, and not relevant to the question at hand. ** I misunderstood Ankha´s point explaining that the damage of CC and GR is also subject to be boosted by DtHR.** > Ankha wrote: > And once again, if there's a minion mentionned explictly, the frenzy applies to that minion. > As explained above, the mention/existence of the words "opposing minion" or "this vampire", if not used to explicitly specify which minion it is played on, doesn´t tell onto which minion(s) the frenzy applies. As English isn´t my native language if I'm reading the text of DtHR wrong (which I don´t think I am), please explain how it is to be read and break down the different parts. I have no issue with being wrong and would happily admit it if it is the case. As always I´m augmenting from the point of what the text actually says/means. If you are ruling based on intent/design then say so.

> inm8 wrote: > It's not entirely true as a Ghoul Retainer (retainer, environmental) or a Carrion Crows (environmental) would also inflict increased damage, but they can't be target of a frenzy card. > [...] > Thirdly, the above is just plain wrong, none of the mentioned cards are +damage effects, but damaging effects in their own right, and not relevant to the question at hand. > Just about this part : CC and Ghoul Retainer are not + damage effect but their inherent damage are boosted by Dam the heart. So if we state that the frenzy is played on the vampire playing it, how could it affect the damages done by these cards ? It couldn't. And so we have an impossibility. It is what is called in logic a proof by contradiction if we have 2 hypothesis one of them being the opposite of the other and we can prove that 1 hypothesis lead to a contradiction, then, the other is necessarily true : here we have : hypothesis 1 : the vampire A playing the card against vampire B is the target of the frenzy. Let's look at the case of vamp A playing dam the heart and carrion crow and then dodging (and for the over achiever that some of you know I am let's imagine that he have an Ex Nihilo on him). This scenario lead to vampire A dealing no damage whatsoever and yet, the additional damages from the dam the heart still kick in (per card text). So we have a contradiction. So vamp A can't be the target of the frenzy. So no other minion being around, the opposing must be the target. the damage from

> Timo wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > It's not entirely true as a Ghoul Retainer (retainer, environmental) or a Carrion Crows (environmental) would also inflict increased damage, but they can't be target of a frenzy card. > > [...] > > Thirdly, the above is just plain wrong, none of the mentioned cards are +damage effects, but damaging effects in their own right, and not relevant to the question at hand. > > > Just about this part : CC and Ghoul Retainer are not + damage effect but their inherent damage are boosted by Dam the heart. > > So if we state that the frenzy is played on the vampire playing it, how could it affect the damages done by these cards ? It couldn't. And so we have an impossibility. > > It is what is called in logic a proof by contradiction if we have 2 hypothesis one of them being the opposite of the other and we can prove that 1 hypothesis lead to a contradiction, then, the other is necessarily true : > > here we have : > hypothesis 1 : the vampire A playing the card against vampire B is the target of the frenzy. > Let's look at the case of vamp A playing dam the heart and carrion crow and then dodging (and for the over achiever that some of you know I am let's imagine that he have an Ex Nihilo on him). > This scenario lead to vampire A dealing no damage whatsoever and yet, the additional damages from the dam the heart still kick in (per card text). > So we have a contradiction. > So vamp A can't be the target of the frenzy. > So no other minion being around, the opposing must be the target. > the damage from > I misunderstood the point Ankha was making ("would also inflict increased damage")... he meant that the damage from the mentioned cards is also subject to have their damage boosted by DtHR. Sorry Ankha for my miss. I see your point and it makes sense, the wording of the card is what is bad as it lends itself to mean both depending on the scenario.... if only a strike is made one shouldn´t need to think of scenarios where the source of the damage could be from other than the minion. The below would remove the ambiguity by making the target explicit. > Dam the Heart's River > > Frenzy. Only usable before range is determined. A vampire can play only one Dam the Heart's River on the opposing minion each combat. > > This combat, each strike or damaging effect made against the opposing minion inflicts +1 damage on the minion. > > As above, and this combat, strikes cost the opposing minion 1 additional blood or life, and they can choose not to strike. >