When is the exact timing of the oust?
According to the ruling regarding Ganhuru and Ubende [LSJ 20060425] (quoted below), the oust seems to happen after the resolution of the step/effect being handled that takes the Methuselah down to not having any pool (the resolution of the "bleed" action in the case of the ruling linked). Isn´t the pool gain from Ganhuru´s ability a contradiction against [RTR 19970630] (quoted below)?
That the result of actually being ousted is separated from the later follow-on result of gaining of 6 pool is clarified as well which is further reinforced by the rules (quoted below). This seems to me to insinuate that victory point(s) are gained simultaneous with the actual oust, is this correctly understood?
That the oust happens after and not simultaneous to the pool reduction makes sense to me in regards to Life Boon being played between the time of a Methuselah being taken down to not having any pool and before being actually ousted. I write this because as far as I read the card text of Life Boon there is nothing in it that creates a "special"/its own time window for it to be able to get in between the reduction of pool and the oust (there is no use of words like "when", "as", "would be" etc.).
Now the question here is if Life Boon is played like any other out-of-turn master, action modifier, reaction (as the impulse is passed around), meaning modifiers/reactions that are playable on the basis of the success of an action can be played, or is it actually having its own "special" time window (which seems to be a common belief/understanding)?
If it is the latter what exactly in the text is it that indicates that it has its own "special" time window as I fail to see wording related to timing in it?
If it is the former, wouldn't that be a contradiction of [RTR 19970630] (quoted below).
Ganhuru
Clan: Ishtarri
Group: 4
Capacity: 7
Discipline: cel pro FOR PRE
Laibon: Ganhuru can prevent 1 non-aggravated damage each combat. If Ubende is ready, you gain a pool whenever Ganhuru successfully bleeds your prey.
Life Boon
Cardtype: Master
Out-of-turn. Boon.
Give pool to a Methuselah with no pool to keep them in the game, and put this card in play. During each of their unlock phases, you can steal 1 pool from that Methuselah. You gain any victory point gained by that Methuselah instead of them, until you are being ousted or until you have gained 1 victory point from this card. Burn this card after you have gained 1 victory point from this card.
> LSJ_Ganhuru wrote:
> > > Player A controls Ganhuru.
> > > Player B is Player A's prey, controls a ready Ubende, and has 1 pool.
> > >
> > > Ganhuru bleeds successfully, thus ousting Player B.
> > > Does Ganhuru gain an additional pool from the oust?
> > >
> > > I thought "no", since Ubende isn't ready anymore after the action
> > > resolves, but it's a confusing bit of timing.
> >
> > I would think "yes", for the same reason that players are ousted
> > simultaneously on, say, a Domain Challenge that eats the last pool
> > of both predator and prey. The predator can't use the 6 pool gained
> > from his prey's oust to survive the Domain Challenge because he
> > wouldn't have it until after he's ousted. By the same token,
> > the bleed is successful, and Ubende isn't gone until after Player A's
> > bleed resolves. Therefore, the bleed is successful, Player A gains
> > a pool (plus 6 more for the oust), and player B are ousted all at
> > the same point in time.
>
> Correct.
>
> RTR wrote:
> Cards and abilities that are usable only after a successful action are used
> after the action is completed, including any oustings. [RTR 970630] !NEW!
>
> Rulebook wrote:
> EXCEPTION: If a Methuselah is ousted at the same time that their prey is ousted, the Methuselah gets the victory point but does not gain 6 pool counters.
>
> inm8 wrote:
> When is the exact timing of the oust?
>
> According to the ruling regarding Ganhuru and Ubende [LSJ 20060425] (quoted below), the oust seems to happen after the resolution of the step/effect being handled that takes the Methuselah down to not having any pool (the resolution of the "bleed" action in the case of the ruling linked).
>
The oust is part of the resolution of the effect reducing the pool to 0.
> inm8 wrote:
> Isn´t the pool gain from Ganhuru´s ability a contradiction against [RTR 19970630] (quoted below)?
>
The pool gain happens after the resolution. The question is: when does one check that Ubende is ready?
a) at the same time the bleed is stated successful, creating a delayed effect to gain pool
b) at the same time the pool gain would happen, that is after the resolution of the action
The ruling says a) => if both conditions are met (Ubende ready and bleed successful), then the effect triggers (after resolution).
> inm8 wrote:
> That the result of actually being ousted is separated from the later follow-on result of gaining of 6 pool is clarified as well which is further reinforced by the rules (quoted below). This seems to me to insinuate that victory point(s) are gained simultaneous with the actual oust, is this correctly understood?
>
Being ousted, gaining 1 VP and gaining 6 pool are all part of the action resolution. The rulebook creates an exception however: if you oust your prey at the same time you are ousted, the 6 pool are not gained (but the rest still happens: you gain 1 VP).
> inm8 wrote:
> That the oust happens after and not simultaneous to the pool reduction makes sense to me
>
If your pool goes down to 0, then you are ousted. However, both happen simultaneously, you cannot slip something in between.
> inm8 wrote:
> in regards to Life Boon being played between the time of a Methuselah being taken down to not having any pool and before being actually ousted. I write this because as far as I read the card text of Life Boon there is nothing in it that creates a "special"/its own time window for it to be able to get in between the reduction of pool and the oust (there is no use of words like "when", "as", "would be" etc.).
> Now the question here is if Life Boon is played like any other out-of-turn master, action modifier, reaction (as the impulse is passed around), meaning modifiers/reactions that are playable on the basis of the success of an action can be played, or is it actually having its own "special" time window (which seems to be a common belief/understanding)?
>
The cardtext of Life Boon is quite old. A "modern" version would be something like: "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool. Give pool to a Methuselah to keep them in the game, and put this card in play. ..."
> inm8 wrote:
> If it is the latter what exactly in the text is it that indicates that it has its own "special" time window as I fail to see wording related to timing in it?
> If it is the former, wouldn't that be a contradiction of [RTR 19970630] (quoted below).
>
"Give pool to a Methuselah with no pool to keep them in the game". "with no pool" is the condition to play the card, and the only moment you can logically play the card "to keep them in the game" is when the Methuselah is about to be ousted (for having no pool) but right before it happens.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
There was anothere related question on the Discord:
> if the bleed from platinum protocol kills the prey can you put a corruption counter on a minion to burn it and unlock the vampire with revelation of the serpent?
>
Revelation of the Serpent
Name: Revelation of the Serpent
[V5A:PMin6]
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Presence & Protean
Only usable during a bleed action.
[pro] +1 bleed (limited), or +1 stealth and +1 bleed (limited).
[PRO] As above, and if the bleed is successful, this vampire can burn 2 of your corruption counters from a minion controlled by the target Methuselah to unlock.
The chronology is:
1/ Revelation of the Serpent is played before resolution
2/ The action is resolved: the target Methuselah is ousted, the condition to activate the superior effect is met (the bleed is successful). However, the effect is delayed to after the resolution.
3/ after resolution, the target Methuselah and their minions are not there any more, so you can't burn 2 corruption counters from one of them to unlock.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
> Ankha wrote:
> The cardtext of Life Boon is quite old. A "modern" version would be something like: "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool. Give pool to a Methuselah to keep them in the game, and put this card in play. ..."
>
Is there any chance we could get Life Boon updated for future reprints of V25? The current wording is so antiquated that it feels like Life Boon is "rewinding time" to keep someone in the game.
> Ankha wrote:
> The cardtext of Life Boon is quite old. A "modern" version would be something like: "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool. Give pool to a Methuselah to keep them in the game, and put this card in play. ..."
>
If Life Boon would be worded "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool." wouldn´t it change the timing of it to be playable before the actual resolution of a bleed which could then be followed by e.g Telepathic Counter?
> Ankha wrote:
> "Give pool to a Methuselah with no pool to keep them in the game". "with no pool" is the condition to play the card, and the only moment you can logically play the card "to keep them in the game" is when the Methuselah is about to be ousted (for having no pool) but right before it happens.
>
Doesn´t the above mean that Life Boon gets in between the time of not having any pool and the actual oust? Am I reading it wrong or is the English here to be read differently?
I might be wrong but below is how I interpret the sentence:
"Give pool to a Methuselah with no pool" is current state/"present" form/, and
"to keep them in the game" refers to a later result/"future" form.
> Ankha wrote:
> There was anothere related question on the Discord:
>
> > if the bleed from platinum protocol kills the prey can you put a corruption counter on a minion to burn it and unlock the vampire with revelation of the serpent?
> >
> The chronology is:
> 1/ Revelation of the Serpent is played before resolution
> 2/ The action is resolved: the target Methuselah is ousted, the condition to activate the superior effect is met (the bleed is successful). However, the effect is delayed to after the resolution.
> 3/ after resolution, the target Methuselah and their minions are not there any more, so you can't burn 2 corruption counters from one of them to unlock.
>
If Life Boon can get in between the successful action of leaving a Methuselah without blood and the actual oust why can´t the corruption counters be placed/burned at the time that the condition to do so is met of these delayed effects?? i would think that it would be up to the acting Methuselah to order effects that happen at the same time...seems to me that if the oust is part of the resolution and Life Boon can be played in between but the delayed effects of Revelation of the Serpent and Platinum Protocol cannot be resolved that it contradicts the Mirror Walk ruling of resolution of delayed effects has to happen before other effects can be played.
Happy to be wrong, just trying to make sense of it all in my head.
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > The cardtext of Life Boon is quite old. A "modern" version would be something like: "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool. Give pool to a Methuselah to keep them in the game, and put this card in play. ..."
> >
> If Life Boon would be worded "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool." wouldn´t it change the timing of it to be playable before the actual resolution of a bleed which could then be followed by e.g Telepathic Counter?
>
No. "Is about to X" is right before X happens, after all replacement effects (and long after the opportunity to play Telepathic Misdirection).
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > "Give pool to a Methuselah with no pool to keep them in the game". "with no pool" is the condition to play the card, and the only moment you can logically play the card "to keep them in the game" is when the Methuselah is about to be ousted (for having no pool) but right before it happens.
> >
> Doesn´t the above mean that Life Boon gets in between the time of not having any pool and the actual oust? Am I reading it wrong or is the English here to be read differently?
>
Yes, because it specifically says so (and "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool." would make that timing explicit).
> inm8 wrote:
>
> > Ankha wrote:
> > There was anothere related question on the Discord:
> >
> > > if the bleed from platinum protocol kills the prey can you put a corruption counter on a minion to burn it and unlock the vampire with revelation of the serpent?
> > >
> > >
> > The chronology is:
> > 1/ Revelation of the Serpent is played before resolution
> > 2/ The action is resolved: the target Methuselah is ousted, the condition to activate the superior effect is met (the bleed is successful). However, the effect is delayed to after the resolution.
> > 3/ after resolution, the target Methuselah and their minions are not there any more, so you can't burn 2 corruption counters from one of them to unlock.
> >
> If Life Boon can get in between the successful action of leaving a Methuselah without blood and the actual oust why can´t the corruption counters be placed/burned at the time that the condition to do so is met of these delayed effects??
>
Because it lacks the specific timing to do so. So it falls in the generic rule, that is: you can't interrupt the resolution of an effect.
> inm8 wrote:
> i would think that it would be up to the acting Methuselah to order effects that happen at the same time...
>
You need to resolve the action first. Since the resolution cannot be interrupted (except by cards with specific timings), Revelation of the Serpent "burn to unlock" effect resolves after.
> inm8 wrote:
> seems to me that if the oust is part of the resolution and Life Boon can be played in between but the delayed effects of Revelation of the Serpent and Platinum Protocol cannot be resolved that it contradicts the Mirror Walk ruling of resolution of delayed effects has to happen before other effects can be played.
>
The Mirror Walk ruling says that you must resolve the Revelation of the Serpent before playing other action modifiers "usable after action resolution".
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director
Thanks for your answers and patience as usual.
> Ankha wrote:
>
> > inm8 wrote:
> >
> > > Ankha wrote:
> > > The cardtext of Life Boon is quite old. A "modern" version would be something like: "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool. Give pool to a Methuselah to keep them in the game, and put this card in play. ..."
> > >
> > >
> > If Life Boon would be worded "Only usable if a Methuselah is about to lose their last pool." wouldn´t it change the timing of it to be playable before the actual resolution of a bleed which could then be followed by e.g Telepathic Counter?
> >
> No. "Is about to X" is right before X happens, after all replacement effects (and long after the opportunity to play Telepathic Misdirection).
>
Wouldn´t the template of Spying Mission be better suited here? That would remove the notion of doing something in between and instead changes the outcome of the resolution with a replacement effect.
Suggestion:
Name: Life Boon Cardtype: Master Out-of-turn. Boon. Only usable when a Methuselah would be ousted. Instead, give pool to that Methuselah to keep them in the game, and put this card in play. During each of their unlock phases, you can steal 1 pool from that Methuselah. You gain any victory point gained by that Methuselah instead of them, until you are being ousted or until you have gained 1 victory point from this card. Burn this card after you have gained 1 victory point from this card.
Spying Mission
Name: Spying Mission
Cardtype: Action Modifier
Discipline: Obfuscate
+1 stealth.
Only usable if a bleed would be successful. Instead, the bleed burns no pool, is unsuccessful, and this card is put on this vampire. The next time this vampire is about to successfully bleed the same Methuselah, burn this card and this vampire gets +2 bleed.
> inm8 wrote:
> Wouldn´t the template of Spying Mission be better suited here?
>
It is: "The next time this vampire is about to successfully bleed ..."
> inm8 wrote:
> That would remove the notion of doing something in between and instead changes the outcome of the resolution with a replacement effect.
>
No, because the Methuselah has to be "about to" be ousted, that is after Major Boon, Spying Mission (first effect: "Only usable if a bleed would be successful.") etc. are played.
The order is: replacement effects first, then "is about to" effects.
Prince of Paris, France
Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director