NRA and ability to play modifiers and reactions

> Ankha wrote: > > > inm8 wrote: > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > lip wrote: > > > > Just to be clear (sorry, I know we've been over and over the topic, but I want to make sure all the rulings I listed are good now): > > > > > > > > Can the opponent play a Reaction (eg. Cats' Guidance) after you played Change of Target? > > > > > > > No, Change of Target ends the action. No action modifier or reaction cards can be played after. > > > See also groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/CaderX6x79w/m/OfLzLcEYK4YJ > > > groups.google.com/g/rec.games.trading-cards.jyhad/c/MIRAQ05Ag7E/m/ywRuvwOC46wJ > > > > > > > > I´m in doubt here... > > > > The above linked rulings seem to be irrelevant to me as they are from a time before the current text of Change of Target which has changed over time > > > > "...when minion is blocked. ...cancel the current action..." -> "...when this acting minion is blocked (play before combat, if any). ...end the current action (it is not successful)." --> "...usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution. ...the action ends (unsuccessfully)." > > > > Earlier in this thread (see below quote), you say that "the action ends (unsuccessfully)" was the old template for "fails". > > > > Change of Target is played before resolution ("Only usable if this minion is blocked, before block resolution.") and makes the action "ends (unsuccessfully)". > > This should be equivalent to "the action fails". (same as below??) > > Since the action should be considered as failed, it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA. Therefore modifiers and reactions should be allowed to be played after it? > > > > Rest of the post > > > > > inm8 wrote: > > > Ruling making Change of Target relevant to NRA. [LSJ 20070709] > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > LSJ wrote: > > > > So if you resolve the successful action or enter block-combat (or play some > > > > other effect that is played when the action succeeds or when the action is > > > > blocked), then the action has reached resolution. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ankha wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hobbesgoblin wrote: > > > > > a) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Car bomb > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > "the action ends (unsecesfully)" does the paranthesis state that the action resolved unsucesfully, despite not reaching resolution, therefore being subjected to NRA? > > > > > > > > > This is the old templating. The card is played before resolution ("Only usable before any block attempts are made.") and makes the action "ends (unsuccessfully)". > > > > This is equivalent to "the action fails". > > > > Since the action fails, it has reached resolution and counts against the NRA. > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the above vampire B in the below scenario should be allowed to play Cat´s Guidance. > > > > > > A does a basic bleed. A passes the impulse to B. > > > B is locked and wakes with WwEF. Passes impulse back to A > > > A doesn't do anything. A passes the impulse to B > > > B attempts to block with the woken vampire. Passes impulse back to A > > > A doesn't do anything (doesn't add stealth). A passes the impulse to B. > > > B doesn't do anything. Passes impulse back to A. > > > As impulse is passed around without any cards/effects being played the bleed action is blocked. > > > A plays Change of Target, unlocks and the action ends (unsuccessfully). A passes the impulse to B. > > > B is locked and plays inferior Cat´s Guidance to unlock (should be allowed???) > > > > > > > > > It's never a good idea to reopen a question if the question is different. > Here is a new thread. What is obvious to you being a completely "different" question wasn´t to me. I rightfully or wrongfully considered it to be very much related to the NRA which is why I continued the questions on the most recent NRA thread. Next time you find me or anyone else asking something out of context of the thread just simply ask to have a new thread opened to not mix topics without implying that it was a "bad" idea, most of us have no intention of hijacking threads, thanks. > Ankha wrote: > The answers provided above were relative to the NRA, not the possibility to play action modifiers or cards. Those are two different subjects. > > When I wrote "This is equivalent to "the action fails".", it was for the matter of the NRA, not generally speaking. > Ok, noted. This thread is then to clarify the interaction of the NRA and modifiers and reactions. > Ankha wrote: > I gave the exact definition of "the action fails" and "the action ends" (and their difference) in the same post. > Are you referring to the below? If not, then please be more precise about what you are referring to. If yes, then I need to ask you to please explain further because I'm not understanding what you are expecting me to be understanding from it in regards to whether modifiers and reactions can be played or not. > Ankha wrote: > As a rule of thumb, cards that bring an action to a "bad" end use: > - "fail" before resolution > - "end" after resolution, when blocked > > There are a few exceptions (Kiss of Ra...) that will be updated on reprint. > > An action that fails is considered to have resolved unsuccessfully, as if it had been blocked, except there is no blocker. > An action that ends well... ends. If it has already been blocked by cardtext (which should be 99% of the cases, and 100% of the cases in the future), it is unsuccessful. > If an action counts towards the NRA are they not by extension considered to have reached resolution and then this again by extension means that modifiers and reactions can be played after cards/effects that bring the action to an earlier end by either that the action "ends (unsuccessfully)" after block but before block resolution (i.e. skipping the block resolution or other steps) or by making the action "fail" before going through all the steps and potentially skipping to the end of the "action resolution??? The above conclusion was further enforced for me by your answer to another of my questions regarding if Zephyr can be played after Car Bomb (see below) > Ankha wrote: > Please assume that Car Bomb says: > > Requires a ready anarch. > Only usable before any block attempts are made. Lock this reacting minion. If the acting minion has a vehicle, the action {fails}, the vehicle is burned, and the acting minion takes 2 damage (not preventable). Otherwise, the action gets -1 stealth. > > This is an errata to make the cards consistent (before the action is blocked => fails, once the action is blocked => ends). > So the action is subject to NRA and you can play Zephyr. > If I have gotten this wrong please provide some examples to make it easier to understand the nuances and differences, thanks.

> inm8 wrote: > > > Ankha wrote: > > I gave the exact definition of "the action fails" and "the action ends" (and their difference) in the same post. > > > Are you referring to the below? > If not, then please be more precise about what you are referring to. > If yes, then I need to ask you to please explain further because I'm not understanding what you are expecting me to be understanding from it in regards to whether modifiers and reactions can be played or not. > Yes. If an effect makes the action "end", action modifier and reaction cards cannot be played anymore since the action is over (there's nothing to modify or react to anymore). It doesn't linger (even though you have to resolve any pending effects such as damage from a Daring the Dawn for instance), there is no "stack": the effect resolves immediately and "ends" the action immediately. The active player has the impulse to use Heidelberg Castle (otherwise not usable during actions), declare another action, use the Barrens etc. or pass the impulse to move to the next phase. > inm8 wrote: > If an action counts towards the NRA are they not by extension considered to have reached resolution > Yes they are. NRA kicks in upon resolution. > inm8 wrote: > and then this again by extension means that modifiers and reactions can be played after cards/effects that bring the action to an earlier end by either that the action "ends (unsuccessfully)" after block but before block resolution (i.e. skipping the block resolution or other steps) or by making the action "fail" before going through all the steps and potentially skipping to the end of the "action resolution??? > They are not the same. Action ends => the action is over (see above). Action fails => you can play action modifier and reaction cards, just as if the action had been blocked and the block had been resolved (but there were no blocker and no combat). > inm8 wrote: > The above conclusion was further enforced for me by your answer to another of my questions regarding if Zephyr can be played after Car Bomb (see below) > > > Ankha wrote: > > Please assume that Car Bomb says: > > > > Requires a ready anarch. > > Only usable before any block attempts are made. Lock this reacting minion. If the acting minion has a vehicle, the action {fails}, the vehicle is burned, and the acting minion takes 2 damage (not preventable). Otherwise, the action gets -1 stealth. > > > > This is an errata to make the cards consistent (before the action is blocked => fails, once the action is blocked => ends). > > So the action is subject to NRA and you can play Zephyr. > > > If I have gotten this wrong please provide some examples to make it easier to understand the nuances and differences, thanks. > Without the errata, you couldn't play action modifier or reaction cards (because the action "ends"). With the errata, you can since it "fails". Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I understand that if the card text says "end the action" there is no longer an action to modify/react on as it has ended. The confusing part is that there is no immediacy implied in the wording "....the action ends (unsuccessfully)" which was part of what made sense to me when you equated it to "fails" in regards to the NRA. The old wordings of Change of Target (below) I think are crystal clear in that the action ends immediately as there is implied immediacy in those wordings. "... cancel the current action .." and "... end the current action (it is not successful)."

> inm8 wrote: > The confusing part is that there is no immediacy implied in the wording "....the action ends (unsuccessfully)" which was part of what made sense to me when you equated it to "fails" in regards to the NRA. > Immediacy has nothing to do with the NRA. The action is blocked, then ends => it has reached resolution (because it was blocked) The action is not blocked, but fails => it has reached resolution (because failure is a type of resolution). Action modifiers (as most of the effects) resolve "immediately" by the rules (there's no delayed resolution except for actions and strikes). Maybe you're under the impression that there's no difference between ending (immediately) and failing (immediately)? The latter is similar to "being blocked (immediately)". Prince of Paris, France Ratings Coordinator, Rules Director

I was referring to the effect and not the resolution of the modifier/reaction but I see your point. Even though the wording "..the action ends.." doesn´t imply immediacy (languagewise) the way the resolution of modifiers and reactions work do makes it immediate. Thanks for your patience, it is clear now.